Guild Wars 2

Gaudrath.6725

The only reason stealth is OP is because, for some reason, the devs haven’t included a mechanism for de-stealthing. Anything from debuffs which prevent stealthing to game mechanics which do not allow stealth to continue while performing offensive actions would do.

Right now, stealth really can be an answer to every single problem you encounter in WvW. Which then raises the question of why bother with anything else.

I don’t understand. You only get one offensive attack from stealth, whereupon you immediately gain revealed a buff that keeps you from restealthing for 3 seconds.

Did you not know that? I know culling can often make it seem like thieves can kill people entirely from stealth, but it’s not true. The moment you hit someone you are destealthed and remain so for 3 seconds.

Xsorus.2507:

The ability to reset a fight when you’re losing is always going to be overpowered..

I can outplay a thief all day long, and if he wants, he can reset the fight till he’s full HP and go again till eventually I get unlucky and he wins…

I do it on my thief all the time..I get in over my head, and then I just reset the fight…

zero skill required..

This. Same for me. There is rarely a moment on this class that i feel i am not in control of the situation. If i feel the need, for whatever reason, i simply vanish and move on. People that die on an 80 thief with exotics/ascended gear in w3 is astounding to me in wpvp’s current state.

The main problem i see with stealth is that it lets the player choose his fight AND have the ability to leave anytime they feel they arent going to win.

With most other games stealthers got to choose their fights but they also had to finish it. (In most cases you chose a target you thought you could beat easily)

Now if you could somehow apply that to this game that would fix alot of problems but i dont know how they would do it with this games mechanix.

I guess you could say 10sec cooldown on using stealth While in combat……….might work. that way you can use stealth as much u want out of combat and choose your fight and open with it for the stealth attack. And if you did happen to get attacked you could still use it once to try to get away

Just my idea. My 1st 80 was a thief and ill even tell you stealth is too strong just because of how often it can be used. I mainly stoppe dplaying him because i dont like the intitive mechanic tho

Pirhana.8935:

The main problem i see with stealth is that it lets the player choose his fight AND have the ability to leave anytime they feel they arent going to win.

With most other games stealthers got to choose their fights but they also had to finish it. (In most cases you chose a target you thought you could beat easily)

Now if you could somehow apply that to this game that would fix alot of problems but i dont know how they would do it with this games mechanix.

I guess you could say 10sec cooldown on using stealth While in combat……….might work. that way you can use stealth as much u want out of combat and choose your fight and open with it for the stealth attack. And if you did happen to get attacked you could still use it once to try to get away

Just my idea. My 1st 80 was a thief and ill even tell you stealth is too strong just because of how often it can be used. I mainly stoppe dplaying him because i dont like the intitive mechanic tho

Some thieves need to frequent access to their stealth skill to maintain passable effectiveness in combat. They generally stealth for less then a second at a time under ideal conditions. I think making stealth less effective as an escape tool is a better option then making it making certain sets useless in combat.
(Btw these sets aren’t D/x)

How do you make it less effective for escaping? Make it so revealed kicks in no matter what. This would make permastealth impossible because the thief will have to wait 3 seconds no matter what.
Another option is to shorten stealth which would make permastealth much harder to maintain.

How do you make it less effective for escaping? Make it so revealed kicks in no matter what. This would make permastealth impossible because the thief will have to wait 3 seconds no matter what.
Another option is to shorten stealth which would make permastealth much harder to maintain.

Another thing to consider is the possibility of adding diminishing returns to stealth duration when spamming stealth moves. In this case, the actual stealth duration would be shorter and shorter with each use until the Thief essentially cannot stealth at all. In theory, this could not only discourage permastealthing, but make Thieves commit to a fight more, and save stealth either for attack setups, or as an actual emergency tool as it was intended, instead of just a spammable reset button.

PolishSausage.1279:

How do you make it less effective for escaping? Make it so revealed kicks in no matter what. This would make permastealth impossible because the thief will have to wait 3 seconds no matter what.
Another option is to shorten stealth which would make permastealth much harder to maintain.

Another thing to consider is the possibility of adding diminishing returns to stealth duration when spamming stealth moves. In this case, the actual stealth duration would be shorter and shorter with each use until the Thief essentially cannot stealth at all. In theory, this could not only discourage permastealthing, but make Thieves commit to a fight more, and save stealth either for attack setups, or as an actual emergency tool as it was intended, instead of just a spammable reset button.

If a thief is constantly stealth attacking it means they’re staying in the fight. Adding diminishing returns repeated stealth attacking would punish S/D and P/D for existing and encouage thieves to go for the backstab burst setup, pooling all their power into an insta-gib then running away to reset. Spamming stealth to stay in combat isn’t resetting. Doing hit and runs is resetting.

Columba.9730:

Chanting L2P doesn’t do any good either. I get killed by lots of classes very often.

You didn’t have to tell people, its pretty obvious you do.

tluv.5821:

My only issue on stealth is the fact that when they are hit is AoE or marks they are still stealthed. I personally think, and I’ve constantly preached this, that if you get hit, especially with cripple or bleed, you should immediately come out of stealth and be unable to get into stealth ‘till the conditions go away. That’s it. Otherwise, stealthing is fine.

Yeah, that’s it. Just make it so that thieves are even less useful in large scale combat.

I think the Rogue in WoW stealth was about right, not as OP’ed as thieves in this game. You had vanish, but then it was on a long cool down, there was an ability that reset it (I forget the name) , but that also was on a long cool down. Opening up from stealth ok, being able to fight 90% of the time in stealth isn’t.
Mesmer stealth isn’t really a problem because of the long cool downs and short time span, it isn’t even close to being like a thief. Mostly good for escaping really.

How to beat glass cannon theives and mesmers 101. More toughness, enough said. Dont cry it does to much damage when you have a glassy build yourself. YES it still hits hard even with high toughness but its managable, and unless your not that good you can easily counter.

For everyone suggesting stealth “as an opener and that’s it”

That is simply not how the thief class is designed, at all.

There’s a reason we don’t have a stealth mode toggle, and that our only spammable stealth options requires us to hit someone with a melee attack, or waste two skills worth of initiative (the fuel that actually lets us use attack skills, a mechanic unique to the thief) All of the utility stealth is just that, utility stealth that must be taken at the expense of something else. It lasts no longer than our weapon based options and comes with a big fat cooldown. Shadow refuge is an exception to the rule, but also requires the thief to build a very noticable floating house, and sit in it until it finishes… and even then they’re left with ten seconds of stealth and a long cooldown.

Thieves don’t have a monoply on leaving fights whenever they feel like it. Pretty much every class has a solid “get out of jail free” build avaliable. The only difference is that thieves are better at it, which is rather well balanced by how extremely squishy they are requiring them to die 100% of the time if they fail to pull it off.

Honestly, stealth only needs to work on every client as well as it does for the user. In other words, culling needs to be handled.

selan.8354:

I think if you are hitting him u should see numbers and also u should be able to knock him out of stealth easier.

Quoting you for your cluelessness and pointing it out. Auto-attacks have different animations if you hit something, and you lose the ability to swap your skills if you hit something. It should of been readily apparent to you if you were hitting something or if the THF had ran off. You also can’t “knock THFs out of stealth.” If you are going to post, at least learn basic game mechanics.

PROTIP: If a THF appears and starts to fight you, then you don’t see it for a bit, if you can swap your skills, it ran off, if you can’t, it’s still there trying to fight you.

And I dont understand what all the hate on THF being able to run away from fights is about either. Mesmer, Elementalist (dagger/dagger the common build) and Warrior (greatsword and sword/warhorn, very common) all have a very easy time running from fights. That’s half the professions of the game. You guys need to get over it.

Dual.8953:

PolishSausage.1279:

How do you make it less effective for escaping? Make it so revealed kicks in no matter what. This would make permastealth impossible because the thief will have to wait 3 seconds no matter what.
Another option is to shorten stealth which would make permastealth much harder to maintain.

Another thing to consider is the possibility of adding diminishing returns to stealth duration when spamming stealth moves. In this case, the actual stealth duration would be shorter and shorter with each use until the Thief essentially cannot stealth at all. In theory, this could not only discourage permastealthing, but make Thieves commit to a fight more, and save stealth either for attack setups, or as an actual emergency tool as it was intended, instead of just a spammable reset button.

If a thief is constantly stealth attacking it means they’re staying in the fight. Adding diminishing returns repeated stealth attacking would punish S/D and P/D for existing and encouage thieves to go for the backstab burst setup, pooling all their power into an insta-gib then running away to reset. Spamming stealth to stay in combat isn’t resetting. Doing hit and runs is resetting.

Who says Cloak and Dagger has to stealth you, and that Stealth should be the only way to give you an opener?

What if Cloak and Dagger just allowed you to use your Opener from out of Stealth?

Xsorus.2507:

Who says Cloak and Dagger has to stealth you, and that Stealth should be the only way to give you an opener?

What if Cloak and Dagger just allowed you to use your Opener from out of Stealth?

Because if CnD allowed you to use backstab, it would be useless because you would still have to get behind them for it to be useful. It would have to do more or it would break the class. So how about we just give it a 2 second immobilize instead of stealth, and it allows stealth skills to be used. Then you can be perma stunned by every THF and unable to move until you’re downed, instead of just not being able to see them. Since that is obviously unfair and broken, and CnD costs way to much initiative, in an effort to ballance it, how about we just lower the cost, make it cost 2 initiative, and all it does it trigger your “from stealth” skills. If this happened, condition damage thieves would crush you by applying 25 stacks of bleeding in about 3 seconds by spamming CnD > 1 > CnD > 1 > etc. since revealed is the only thing that prevents this currently.

Your solution would just make things worse, or make the skill completely useless.

wish.3102:

Xsorus.2507:

Who says Cloak and Dagger has to stealth you, and that Stealth should be the only way to give you an opener?

What if Cloak and Dagger just allowed you to use your Opener from out of Stealth?

Because if CnD allowed you to use backstab, it would be useless because you would still have to get behind them for it to be useful. It would have to do more or it would break the class. So how about we just give it a 2 second immobilize instead of stealth, and it allows stealth skills to be used. Then you can be perma stunned by every THF and unable to move until you’re downed, instead of just not being able to see them. Since that is obviously unfair and broken, and CnD costs way to much initiative, in an effort to ballance it, how about we just lower the cost, make it cost 2 initiative, and all it does it trigger your “from stealth” skills. If this happened, condition damage thieves would crush you by applying 25 stacks of bleeding in about 3 seconds by spamming CnD > 1 > CnD > 1 > etc. since revealed is the only thing that prevents this currently.

Your solution would just make things worse, or make the skill completely useless.

This right here is a prime example of why people look down on thieves

“But if the person can see me, How am I ever going to get behind him in PVP to land a backstab?

PopeUrban.2578:

For everyone suggesting stealth “as an opener and that’s it”

That is simply not how the thief class is designed, at all.

There’s a reason we don’t have a stealth mode toggle, and that our only spammable stealth options requires us to hit someone with a melee attack, or waste two skills worth of initiative (the fuel that actually lets us use attack skills, a mechanic unique to the thief) All of the utility stealth is just that, utility stealth that must be taken at the expense of something else. It lasts no longer than our weapon based options and comes with a big fat cooldown. Shadow refuge is an exception to the rule, but also requires the thief to build a very noticable floating house, and sit in it until it finishes… and even then they’re left with ten seconds of stealth and a long cooldown.

Thieves don’t have a monoply on leaving fights whenever they feel like it. Pretty much every class has a solid “get out of jail free” build avaliable. The only difference is that thieves are better at it, which is rather well balanced by how extremely squishy they are requiring them to die 100% of the time if they fail to pull it off.

Honestly, stealth only needs to work on every client as well as it does for the user. In other words, culling needs to be handled.

Whats with all this “extremely” squishy talk about thieves? I think that’s a huge crutch other thieves are constantly using to validate stealth in its current form. Only D/D thieves build like this. My thief is durable (2.8k armor) 19k hp, and is a killing machine against most targets. Squishy? You have got to be kidding. (WvW not spvp)

Pero.4362:

So how is stealth okay if it can counter every, I mean every single spell that I have?
Immobilize ? Oh hey, i have stealth LolzhahaXDXDXDXD
You have a circle that wont let me out ? Oh hey, i have stelath Lolzhaha…
You outnumber me and could kill me in 2 seconds because I’m just another non-skilled glasscannon thief ? Oh hey let me show you this 1:30 min stealth that I just got, cya tomorrow

What ? In what way is that okay ? I dont have anything against stealth in general, but its just poorly balanced in this game as far as thieves go….

@Teamkiller.4315 Yes there is that debuff, but as far as I know, most of the utility (longer duration) stealth is used for defensive purposes, and why would u leave stealth with an attack if youre trying to be defensive again ? Oh wait…..

You’re doing a horrible disservice to your argument. Not a SINGLE thing you stated in your post is even true. The longest stealth you can achieve (without using the auto targeting heart seeker permastealth, in which you cannot attack at all nor cap or stall points) is 25 seconds. 1:30 mins is complete misinformation.

You immobilized him and he went stealth? He is still there. Attack him.
You placed the circle around him to prevent him from getting out? He is still there. Attack him.
You outnumber him and he is a non-skilled glass cannon thief? HE IS STILL THERE. ATTACK HIM.

You act like stealth makes you invulnerable, and that, more than anything, proves that you don’t know the class well enough to be demanding changes to it.

As for OP, I’ve never seen a thief take 4 non-uplvled players out by himself, unless you count taking them out in 1v1’s or 1v2’s each after each other. Any group that size with any skill, teamwork, coordination, or gear, should be able to shut the thief down with no problem.

Look there are 3 utility thief skills that allow a thief to “stealth at will”:

Hide in Shadows: 1 sec activation time, can be interrupted
Shadow Refuge: .25 sec activation time, will most likely not be interrupted, but can be prevented by CC
blinding powder: Instant cast, can be prevented by CC

Every other stealth they have is conditional upon:

What enemy they are facing (Blinding Tuft: .5 sec activation time, can be interrupted)
If they can land the C&D (.5 sec activation time, can be interrupted, dodged, or avoided)
Tricking you into walking into a shadow trap (.5 sec activation time, can be interrupted, requires planned positioning of enemy)

I’m not going to discuss Prowl (Norn, not class specific), smoke bomb (downed ability), or throw feathers (requires you to be next to a crimson moa.) for obvious reasons.

Now I’ve never seen a GC run a shadow trap and in my experience its extremely rare for any thief to use it, but the 3 “at will” stealth’s are fairly common, and with the exception of Shadow refuge, all are 3 secs, unless you trait for the extra second, which requires you not to be a GC thief. If you don’t count Shadow refuge that means a thief has 6 seconds of “at will” stealth, with SR giving another 10 seconds assuming you don’t knock him out of the obnoxious circle he has to stay in to remain stealthed.

That’s not an unmanageable amount, especially considering that a thief usually uses SR as an initiator or a escape. In fact, I’d trade 3 sec stealth spells for 3 sec invulnerability spells anyday.

As for Stealth stomping being OP, I’ll concede that point when ele’s cant mist stomp, gaurdians cant stability stomp, and engineers cant shrink stomp. Until then, there is no reason I shouldn’t be allowed to stomp from stealth, especially since I am still able to take dmg and be knocked down while I’m doing it, whereas there is absolutely no way to prevent their stomps.

Stealth is not overpowered by itself – it is stealth combined with massive damage and mobility.

Stealth is countered by attacking the air – which doesn’t work when you don’t even know where the enemy is. Any thief who stands there after stealthing and doesn’t even change directions/dodge is a terrible player. Infiltrator’s arrow can get you out of most any situations, save being chain-knockdowned/stunned and having damage unloaded onto you – which would kill most other people anyway.

You immobilized me? Attacking me? Infiltrator’s arrow.
You place Ring of Warding (Guardian Hammer 5 circle)? Infiltrator’s arrow.
You outnumber me? Blinding powder + Infiltrator’s arrow.
You outnumber me and successfully chain knockdowns and stuns? Congratulations you outplayed me in a 1vX situation where any other class would die.

*You can replace Infiltrator’s arrow with shadowstep, steal, the shadowstep signet, or Sword 2 return (but most people don’t use that).

When I play my thief that one skill combined with long duration (4+ seconds) stealth allows me to get away from anything.

Oh and you forgot the heartseeker + pistol 5 combo, which is very spammable. Not sure why you decided to leave out one of the most prevalent thief builds in WvW to show how stealth isn’t spammable. Yes if you just stay in stealth it you cannot do any damage, but what happens if I decide to chain that combo in with backstabs? Every 3 seconds I disappear (with a free backstab too). Definitely spammable.

EDIT: I would also trade 3 second stealths for invulnerability, except, you know, you only get 3 seconds of it on your elite skill/utility with a long cooldown, and you can’t do anything during the period but walk around and stomp people.

Xsorus.2507:

Dual.8953:

PolishSausage.1279:

How do you make it less effective for escaping? Make it so revealed kicks in no matter what. This would make permastealth impossible because the thief will have to wait 3 seconds no matter what.
Another option is to shorten stealth which would make permastealth much harder to maintain.

Another thing to consider is the possibility of adding diminishing returns to stealth duration when spamming stealth moves. In this case, the actual stealth duration would be shorter and shorter with each use until the Thief essentially cannot stealth at all. In theory, this could not only discourage permastealthing, but make Thieves commit to a fight more, and save stealth either for attack setups, or as an actual emergency tool as it was intended, instead of just a spammable reset button.

If a thief is constantly stealth attacking it means they’re staying in the fight. Adding diminishing returns repeated stealth attacking would punish S/D and P/D for existing and encouage thieves to go for the backstab burst setup, pooling all their power into an insta-gib then running away to reset. Spamming stealth to stay in combat isn’t resetting. Doing hit and runs is resetting.

Who says Cloak and Dagger has to stealth you, and that Stealth should be the only way to give you an opener?

What if Cloak and Dagger just allowed you to use your Opener from out of Stealth?

Then S/D would have little to no sustain, no burst (well it already has no burst) and be completely inferior to S/P in control. P/D would be P/P without Unload, Headshot or BlackPowder, aka: everything that makes P/P useable.

Dual.8953:

Xsorus.2507:

Dual.8953:

PolishSausage.1279:

How do you make it less effective for escaping? Make it so revealed kicks in no matter what. This would make permastealth impossible because the thief will have to wait 3 seconds no matter what.
Another option is to shorten stealth which would make permastealth much harder to maintain.

Another thing to consider is the possibility of adding diminishing returns to stealth duration when spamming stealth moves. In this case, the actual stealth duration would be shorter and shorter with each use until the Thief essentially cannot stealth at all. In theory, this could not only discourage permastealthing, but make Thieves commit to a fight more, and save stealth either for attack setups, or as an actual emergency tool as it was intended, instead of just a spammable reset button.

If a thief is constantly stealth attacking it means they’re staying in the fight. Adding diminishing returns repeated stealth attacking would punish S/D and P/D for existing and encouage thieves to go for the backstab burst setup, pooling all their power into an insta-gib then running away to reset. Spamming stealth to stay in combat isn’t resetting. Doing hit and runs is resetting.

Who says Cloak and Dagger has to stealth you, and that Stealth should be the only way to give you an opener?

What if Cloak and Dagger just allowed you to use your Opener from out of Stealth?

Then S/D would have little to no sustain, no burst (well it already has no burst) and be completely inferior to S/P in control. P/D would be P/P without Unload, Headshot or BlackPowder, aka: everything that makes P/P useable.

It’s be the same as right now..Except you wouldn’t be invisible.

Xsorus.2507:

Dual.8953:

Xsorus.2507:

Dual.8953:

PolishSausage.1279:

How do you make it less effective for escaping? Make it so revealed kicks in no matter what. This would make permastealth impossible because the thief will have to wait 3 seconds no matter what.
Another option is to shorten stealth which would make permastealth much harder to maintain.

Another thing to consider is the possibility of adding diminishing returns to stealth duration when spamming stealth moves. In this case, the actual stealth duration would be shorter and shorter with each use until the Thief essentially cannot stealth at all. In theory, this could not only discourage permastealthing, but make Thieves commit to a fight more, and save stealth either for attack setups, or as an actual emergency tool as it was intended, instead of just a spammable reset button.

If a thief is constantly stealth attacking it means they’re staying in the fight. Adding diminishing returns repeated stealth attacking would punish S/D and P/D for existing and encouage thieves to go for the backstab burst setup, pooling all their power into an insta-gib then running away to reset. Spamming stealth to stay in combat isn’t resetting. Doing hit and runs is resetting.

Who says Cloak and Dagger has to stealth you, and that Stealth should be the only way to give you an opener?

What if Cloak and Dagger just allowed you to use your Opener from out of Stealth?

Then S/D would have little to no sustain, no burst (well it already has no burst) and be completely inferior to S/P in control. P/D would be P/P without Unload, Headshot or BlackPowder, aka: everything that makes P/P useable.

It’s be the same as right now..Except you wouldn’t be invisible.

So since it gives you your ‘in stealth’ attack, you’re ok with condition thieves using this to get 25 stacks of bleeding on you for 120+ damage a tick each in under 3 seconds then running away from you while you bleed out in the next 3 seconds right? Cause thats whats gonna happen.

The revealed debuff is what prevents this. Your solution creates as many problems as it solves.

Xsorus.2507:

Dual.8953:

Xsorus.2507:

Dual.8953:

PolishSausage.1279:

How do you make it less effective for escaping? Make it so revealed kicks in no matter what. This would make permastealth impossible because the thief will have to wait 3 seconds no matter what.
Another option is to shorten stealth which would make permastealth much harder to maintain.

Another thing to consider is the possibility of adding diminishing returns to stealth duration when spamming stealth moves. In this case, the actual stealth duration would be shorter and shorter with each use until the Thief essentially cannot stealth at all. In theory, this could not only discourage permastealthing, but make Thieves commit to a fight more, and save stealth either for attack setups, or as an actual emergency tool as it was intended, instead of just a spammable reset button.

If a thief is constantly stealth attacking it means they’re staying in the fight. Adding diminishing returns repeated stealth attacking would punish S/D and P/D for existing and encouage thieves to go for the backstab burst setup, pooling all their power into an insta-gib then running away to reset. Spamming stealth to stay in combat isn’t resetting. Doing hit and runs is resetting.

Who says Cloak and Dagger has to stealth you, and that Stealth should be the only way to give you an opener?

What if Cloak and Dagger just allowed you to use your Opener from out of Stealth?

Then S/D would have little to no sustain, no burst (well it already has no burst) and be completely inferior to S/P in control. P/D would be P/P without Unload, Headshot or BlackPowder, aka: everything that makes P/P useable.

It’s be the same as right now..Except you wouldn’t be invisible.

What he say about P/D, on the S/D end, 4 words. Spammable two second daze. S/D would be unbridled from the revealed cooldown.

This is coming from a player who just took down 7 players total in WvW, alone.
One of them was an enemy comm with incinerator (meaning a competent player), three of them were under level 80. At first 4v1, then all downed, then 3v1 to all downed. I am able to stealth, reposition to the far end away from the group and attack, and re-enter stealth to do it again and again. The fight took about 20 minutes total of which they should have just left after 1 minute, so for what it’s worth, it’s their own fault.

Is stealth overpowered? I think it’s completely situational – right now in WvW my 4 second stealth (CnD) turns into 4 sec of being completely invisible, assuming I don’t leave early. 2-2.5 sec of actually waiting in stealth, then attacking – rarely will players stay in stealth the full duration, only doing so to remain hidden and hiding, and note – staying in stealth for full duration and remaining WILL consume all initiative within ~12 sec, traiting for initiative gain loses us ALOT of healing, utility, condi removal and mobility and while doing it deals zero damage.

I think alot of players don’t know how to counter it, and the answer to how to counter is extremely simple – KNOCKDOWNS and BURST. Nothing else has ever 100% guaranteed my death when fighting 2+ players, and even so, 1v1 a knockdown will severely disrupt my play. Maybe I’m not allowed to say it, but it’s actually extremely frustrating to how vulnerable thief is to knockdowns. Players who know how to dodge the incomming stealth attack, and locate+follow the stealther while in stealth, will cause me to leave the fight or die within one round of cooldowns.

Stealth is not overpowered, but when facing players with no reliable knockdown or anti-stealth tactics, it can be exploited to no end. I think that a stealthing class that knows how to utilize their evades when needed (saving dodges for major hits), combined with blinds/copies/blocks, will be able to outlive nearly anything it faces. ie, a skilled a well informed player WILL destroy any “noob” player who does not know how to play against it. I’ve taken down many 1vX lowbie fights with ease, but on the other hand have also been outright murdered by a simple well executed knockdown combo.

In the end I think it frustrates people when a stealther runs away and the player is left angry with no victory stomp. I think that stealthers are able to crush new and lowbie players ONLY in WvW because of culling (notice how sPvP stealth is much noticeably differant) and really people just need to l2P when it comes to countering stealth. It is a very demanding and punishing ability when used correctly, and unorganized chaos of WvW allows it to greatly excel.

wish.3102:

Xsorus.2507:

Dual.8953:

Xsorus.2507:

Dual.8953:

PolishSausage.1279:

How do you make it less effective for escaping? Make it so revealed kicks in no matter what. This would make permastealth impossible because the thief will have to wait 3 seconds no matter what.
Another option is to shorten stealth which would make permastealth much harder to maintain.

Another thing to consider is the possibility of adding diminishing returns to stealth duration when spamming stealth moves. In this case, the actual stealth duration would be shorter and shorter with each use until the Thief essentially cannot stealth at all. In theory, this could not only discourage permastealthing, but make Thieves commit to a fight more, and save stealth either for attack setups, or as an actual emergency tool as it was intended, instead of just a spammable reset button.

If a thief is constantly stealth attacking it means they’re staying in the fight. Adding diminishing returns repeated stealth attacking would punish S/D and P/D for existing and encouage thieves to go for the backstab burst setup, pooling all their power into an insta-gib then running away to reset. Spamming stealth to stay in combat isn’t resetting. Doing hit and runs is resetting.

Who says Cloak and Dagger has to stealth you, and that Stealth should be the only way to give you an opener?

What if Cloak and Dagger just allowed you to use your Opener from out of Stealth?

Then S/D would have little to no sustain, no burst (well it already has no burst) and be completely inferior to S/P in control. P/D would be P/P without Unload, Headshot or BlackPowder, aka: everything that makes P/P useable.

It’s be the same as right now..Except you wouldn’t be invisible.

So since it gives you your ‘in stealth’ attack, you’re ok with condition thieves using this to get 25 stacks of bleeding on you for 120+ damage a tick each in under 3 seconds then running away from you while you bleed out in the next 3 seconds right? Cause thats whats gonna happen.

The revealed debuff is what prevents this. Your solution creates as many problems as it solves.

If you think you can do stay alive long enough to do this without stealth, by all means.

I think you’d be surprised about how the game plays for the rest of us without stealth.

slender.1482:

=
In the end I think it frustrates people when a stealther runs away and the player is left angry with no victory stomp. I think that stealthers are able to crush new and lowbie players ONLY in WvW because of culling (notice how sPvP stealth is much noticeably differant) and really people just need to l2P when it comes to countering stealth. It is a very demanding and punishing ability when used correctly, and unorganized chaos of WvW allows it to greatly excel.

I don’t believe it is just culling. In sPvP things differ in two other ways:

1) Confined space. It’s hard for a thief to run away period because the sPvP maps are more or less pretty small and restrictive, much less running away without running into other enemies. In WvW a thief can keep running…and running…and running…and you won’t catch him unless you’re another thief or a DD ele.

2) sPvP crit damage is capped at about 50% lower than wvw, and there are no food buffs. Additionally it’s impossible to pre-stack bloodlust and difficult to stack a lot of might. Since burst is lower, players have an easier time reacting and learning than if they started out in WvW.

Sunflowers.1729:

Stealth is not overpowered by itself – it is stealth combined with massive damage and mobility.

Stealth is countered by attacking the air – which doesn’t work when you don’t even know where the enemy is. Any thief who stands there after stealthing and doesn’t even change directions/dodge is a terrible player. Infiltrator’s arrow can get you out of most any situations, save being chain-knockdowned/stunned and having damage unloaded onto you – which would kill most other people anyway.

You immobilized me? Attacking me? Infiltrator’s arrow.
You place Ring of Warding (Guardian Hammer 5 circle)? Infiltrator’s arrow.
You outnumber me? Blinding powder + Infiltrator’s arrow.
You outnumber me and successfully chain knockdowns and stuns? Congratulations you outplayed me in a 1vX situation where any other class would die.

*You can replace Infiltrator’s arrow with shadowstep, steal, the shadowstep signet, or Sword 2 return (but most people don’t use that).

When I play my thief that one skill combined with long duration (4+ seconds) stealth allows me to get away from anything.

Oh and you forgot the heartseeker + pistol 5 combo, which is very spammable. Not sure why you decided to leave out one of the most prevalent thief builds in WvW to show how stealth isn’t spammable. Yes if you just stay in stealth it you cannot do any damage, but what happens if I decide to chain that combo in with backstabs? Every 3 seconds I disappear (with a free backstab too). Definitely spammable.

EDIT: I would also trade 3 second stealths for invulnerability, except, you know, you only get 3 seconds of it on your elite skill/utility with a long cooldown, and you can’t do anything during the period but walk around and stomp people.

I didn’t leave the smoke + HS out. Its what people mean when they say permastealth. I addressed it. As for that build being the "most prevalent build in WvW, I really have nothing to say. That has been one of the most underused and rare builds in WvW since they removed cap stalling. I always see (in order or popularity):

GC BS builds
P/D Cond builds (I realize they can also do this to a lesser extent. Is this the one you are reffering to?)
D/D cond builds
S/D autoattack builds
S/P autoattack builds
Permastealth builds
P/P unload builds

As for infiltrator’s arrow, thieves that can deal dmg are the glassiest that any class comes, and our class has so little stunbreak that we need that arrow for mobility precisely because without it our class would be doomed to bunker builds, not to mention it breaks stealth and requires a weapon change to a weapon that forces us to not have the spammable stealth you are talking about.

I doubt you could reliably use the smoke + HS spam stealth and BS to any effect. The trait allowing the extra second of stealth would mean you wouldn’t have the 30 point trait in precision allowing 100% crit from stealth, unless you’re taking down the +% to dmg with daggers or from behind instead, in which case the same thing occurs: you aren’t the GC BS build they are complaining about because you don’t have as much dmg. Then there’s the issue of the revealed debuff, which I assume you are talking about by 3 seconds between back stabs. I would personally argue that you would either have a problem with HS auto targeting and ruining your stealth, meking it so you cant BS at all, or the time it takes you to pistol 5 + HS away from your target would most likely take you far enough away from your target that getting back in the 3 seconds of stealth would require that the target be moving towards you, or standing in place, neither of which should be your fault.

Of course I am open to you’re side of the story: find a video of pistol 5 + HS spamming GC BS build being used without these problems and I will gladly forfeit that argument.

Teamkiller.4315:

slender.1482:

=
In the end I think it frustrates people when a stealther runs away and the player is left angry with no victory stomp. I think that stealthers are able to crush new and lowbie players ONLY in WvW because of culling (notice how sPvP stealth is much noticeably differant) and really people just need to l2P when it comes to countering stealth. It is a very demanding and punishing ability when used correctly, and unorganized chaos of WvW allows it to greatly excel.

I don’t believe it is just culling. In sPvP things differ in two other ways:

1) Confined space. It’s hard for a thief to run away period because the sPvP maps are more or less pretty small and restrictive, much less running away without running into other enemies. In WvW a thief can keep running…and running…and running…and you won’t catch him unless you’re another thief or a DD ele.

2) sPvP crit damage is capped at about 50% lower than wvw, and there are no food buffs. Additionally it’s impossible to pre-stack bloodlust and difficult to stack a lot of might. Since burst is lower, players have an easier time reacting and learning than if they started out in WvW.

They also did multiple damage nerfs to the Thief in SPVP

Xsorus.2507:

Who says Cloak and Dagger has to stealth you, and that Stealth should be the only way to give you an opener?

What if Cloak and Dagger just allowed you to use your Opener from out of Stealth?

Amazing suggestion.

Why not just get rid of stealth altogether while you’re at it?

LOCO.1785:

Xsorus.2507:

Who says Cloak and Dagger has to stealth you, and that Stealth should be the only way to give you an opener?

What if Cloak and Dagger just allowed you to use your Opener from out of Stealth?

Amazing suggestion.

Why not just get rid of stealth altogether while you’re at it?

Oh i’m sorry, you mean having the multiple utility skills you have that give you stealth isn’t good enough?

grin

slender.1482:

This is coming from a player who just took down 7 players total in WvW, alone.
One of them was an enemy comm with incinerator (meaning a competent player), three of them were under level 80. At first 4v1, then all downed, then 3v1 to all downed. I am able to stealth, reposition to the far end away from the group and attack, and re-enter stealth to do it again and again. The fight took about 20 minutes total of which they should have just left after 1 minute, so for what it’s worth, it’s their own fault.

Is stealth overpowered? I think it’s completely situational – right now in WvW my 4 second stealth (CnD) turns into 4 sec of being completely invisible, assuming I don’t leave early. 2-2.5 sec of actually waiting in stealth, then attacking – rarely will players stay in stealth the full duration, only doing so to remain hidden and hiding, and note – staying in stealth for full duration and remaining WILL consume all initiative within ~12 sec, traiting for initiative gain loses us ALOT of healing, utility, condi removal and mobility and while doing it deals zero damage.

I think alot of players don’t know how to counter it, and the answer to how to counter is extremely simple – KNOCKDOWNS and BURST. Nothing else has ever 100% guaranteed my death when fighting 2+ players, and even so, 1v1 a knockdown will severely disrupt my play. Maybe I’m not allowed to say it, but it’s actually extremely frustrating to how vulnerable thief is to knockdowns. Players who know how to dodge the incomming stealth attack, and locate+follow the stealther while in stealth, will cause me to leave the fight or die within one round of cooldowns.

Stealth is not overpowered, but when facing players with no reliable knockdown or anti-stealth tactics, it can be exploited to no end. I think that a stealthing class that knows how to utilize their evades when needed (saving dodges for major hits), combined with blinds/copies/blocks, will be able to outlive nearly anything it faces. ie, a skilled a well informed player WILL destroy any “noob” player who does not know how to play against it. I’ve taken down many 1vX lowbie fights with ease, but on the other hand have also been outright murdered by a simple well executed knockdown combo.

In the end I think it frustrates people when a stealther runs away and the player is left angry with no victory stomp. I think that stealthers are able to crush new and lowbie players ONLY in WvW because of culling (notice how sPvP stealth is much noticeably differant) and really people just need to l2P when it comes to countering stealth. It is a very demanding and punishing ability when used correctly, and unorganized chaos of WvW allows it to greatly excel.

Precisely this. Also note: his 1v4 had only 1 player that was either geared/competent. Perhaps I didn’t emphasize it enough, but CC is deadly for a thief. Even if we shadow-step away,we are still immobilized. It is still a massive problem for a thief to deal with. I personally believe knockdown/knockback was put into the game as a thief’s hard counter.

Xsorus.2507:

LOCO.1785:

Xsorus.2507:

Who says Cloak and Dagger has to stealth you, and that Stealth should be the only way to give you an opener?

What if Cloak and Dagger just allowed you to use your Opener from out of Stealth?

Amazing suggestion.

Why not just get rid of stealth altogether while you’re at it?

Oh i’m sorry, you mean having the multiple utility skills you have that give you stealth isn’t good enough?

grin

So making those utilities a necessity is your solution? Making many other builds obsolete in the process?

Prefer to just leave it as is thanks, the way ANet intended.

Slender, if you’re trying to argue that stealth ISN’T overpowered maybe you shouldn’t start by saying “Hey I just won a 1v7 but it’s because I played smart”.

Wouldn’t it be more constructive to start by saying “Oh I was fighting this warrior the other day and he was able to kill me by taking advantage of his many crowd control options.”

I’m not entirely sure what the point of saying you won a 1v7 and detailing exactly how it happened helps your point. Instead maybe eat a humble pie and detail how you LOST an Xv1 not how you won this fantastic 1vX.

For example, to someone complaining about my Guardian’s Tome of Wrath in duels.

“OMG he does so much unavoidable damage. How do you avoid ground target abilities, plus all that burning, cripple, and he can pop stability before hand so you can’t interrupt him either. OH AND THAT BOOK GIVES HIM RETALIATION THE ENTIRE TIME + 50% MORE HP SO IF I ATTACK HIM I LOSE HALF MY HP JUST FROM RETALIATION!”

I would start by saying

“Well, you could wear me down with conditions instead of direct damage; this does not proc his retaliation. Additionally the book does not contain any cleanses so I am either forced to eat the conditions or drop it to cleanse. Recently a necromancer turned my retaliation into confusion and put a kittenload of marks on my feet while I was channeling a rooted judgment. He stalemated my elite skill with just his normal weapon skills and eventually wore me down since I had blown a long cooldown for the stability and my 180s cooldown elite.”

or

“High damage low number hit skills counter retaliation, and guardian cannot really use any other utilities on the fly while using his book. Additionally if you can outdamage me in while I have the book active, which really is not too difficult to do, you can engage me. To illustrate this point, a warrior I dueled last Friday simply out damaged me, hitting a 6k eviscerate will only proc a 350 damage retaliation, and and his stun + hundred blades only procs 3k damage in retaliation while dealing 14k easily to me. Most of my health was gone and I cannot heal so I needed to drop the book. All in all I took a devastating 80% of my health in damage while I only dealt about 40% of his health in return. From there I was fighting an uphill battle that I eventually lost”

not

“I use killed two thieves with Tome of Wrath by myself today, but it’s not OP, it’s just situational. They needed to do [x] not [y] to beat me”

Your suggestions could use without the self promotion.

For the record I don’t think stealth is overpowered as it is now. It could use some tweaking but overall it’s OK. I believe thieves SHOULD have the advantage in open 1v1’s given their nature of building to escape, and wvw being open grants them that advantage. sPvP not so much

LOCO.1785:

Xsorus.2507:

LOCO.1785:

Xsorus.2507:

Who says Cloak and Dagger has to stealth you, and that Stealth should be the only way to give you an opener?

What if Cloak and Dagger just allowed you to use your Opener from out of Stealth?

Amazing suggestion.

Why not just get rid of stealth altogether while you’re at it?

Oh i’m sorry, you mean having the multiple utility skills you have that give you stealth isn’t good enough?

grin

So making those utilities a necessity is your solution? Making many other builds obsolete in the process?

Prefer to just leave it as is thanks, the way ANet intended.

I’m sure you’d prefer to leave it how it is, since its overpowered and not balanced at all right now.

Rashagal.5867:

P/D Cond builds (I realize they can also do this to a lesser extent. Is this the one you are reffering to?)
D/D cond builds
S/D autoattack builds
S/P autoattack builds
Permastealth builds
P/P unload builds

I was referring to Dagger + Pistol build, which many thieves seem to use nowadays (at least the better ones)

Rashagal.5867:

As for infiltrator’s arrow, thieves that can deal dmg are the glassiest that any class comes, and our class has so little stunbreak that we need that arrow for mobility precisely because without it our class would be doomed to bunker builds, not to mention it* breaks stealth* and requires a weapon change to a weapon that forces us to not have the spammable stealth you are talking about.

It doesn’t break stealth. Sure your character looks like it is no longer in stealth, but the buff is still there and enemy players still can’t see you. Yes it forces you to change to a non-stealth weapon, but now you are far away from the people who are trying to kill you, which is kind of the point.

Rashagal.5867:

I doubt you could reliably use the smoke + HS spam stealth and BS to any effect. The trait allowing the extra second of stealth would mean you wouldn’t have the 30 point trait in precision allowing 100% crit from stealth, unless you’re taking down the +% to dmg with daggers or from behind instead, in which case the same thing occurs: you aren’t the GC BS build they are complaining about because you don’t have as much dmg. Then there’s the issue of the revealed debuff, which I assume you are talking about by 3 seconds between back stabs. I would personally argue that you would either have a problem with HS auto targeting and ruining your stealth, meking it so you cant BS at all, or the time it takes you to pistol 5 + HS away from your target would most likely take you far enough away from your target that getting back in the 3 seconds of stealth would require that the target be moving towards you, or standing in place, neither of which should be your fault.

As a matter of fact, my build does exactly that: 0/30/30/10/0(Edit: Dagger Pistol are the weapons). Guaranteed crit in stealth, health regen in stealth + extra stealth duration, initiative regen when entering stealth with heartseeker (or even just extending the duration with a second heartseeker, which is kind of broken). +50% movespeed in stealth allowing easy backstabs. Condition removal when entering stealth, and 3 seconds after stealthing. I have +90% crit damage while maintaining 1800 toughness. 5k backstabs (though it goes up to 8k on low armor targets) every 3 seconds is nothing to be sneezed at. The build is extremely strong and relies solely on this heartseeker + black powder combo.

Edit (again): Using black powder + heartseeker will make you leap towards the enemy, hit him with heartseeker, then trigger the combo finisher that stealths you, allowing for an easy backstab. So the auto targeting is in fact very helpful!

Forget it Buddy. Just roll thief^^

Guaranteed kill on downed enemies while stealthed – not a problem.
Cannot be damaged by marks and lots of untargeted AoE while stealthed – no big deal.
No dmg-numbers while stealthed – really no biggie.
1v1 as good as unkillable – just try harder.
Players should win by playskill, not classdesign simlicity – just an advertisement

slogan, really.
High percentage of thief players or mesmers in WvWvW – must be a coincidence.
ArenaNet should not admit that the spammable stealth of the thief class is a

gamebreaking advantage. Period.

Honestly – this is decent game. Not great or outstanding, but really decent.
This post should be deleted – like all other stealth issue posts.

Necrid.6247:

Guaranteed kill on downed enemies while stealthed – not a problem.
Cannot be damaged by marks and lots of untargeted AoE while stealthed – no big deal.

It’s actually somewhat dangerous to try and stomp a downed enemy, especially if the other players have seen you stealth and try to stomp him.

Marks can hit stealthed enemies, and your point about AoE is a bit off – untargeted AoE will hit a stealthed thief, but only if you know where they went (which is the problem).

Thieves are OP, but not that much.

Sunflowers.1729:

Rashagal.5867:

P/D Cond builds (I realize they can also do this to a lesser extent. Is this the one you are reffering to?)
D/D cond builds
S/D autoattack builds
S/P autoattack builds
Permastealth builds
P/P unload builds

I was referring to Dagger + Pistol build, which many thieves seem to use nowadays (at least the better ones)

Rashagal.5867:

As for infiltrator’s arrow, thieves that can deal dmg are the glassiest that any class comes, and our class has so little stunbreak that we need that arrow for mobility precisely because without it our class would be doomed to bunker builds, not to mention it* breaks stealth* and requires a weapon change to a weapon that forces us to not have the spammable stealth you are talking about.

It doesn’t break stealth. Sure your character looks like it is no longer in stealth, but the buff is still there and enemy players still can’t see you. Yes it forces you to change to a non-stealth weapon, but now you are far away from the people who are trying to kill you, which is kind of the point.

Rashagal.5867:

I doubt you could reliably use the smoke + HS spam stealth and BS to any effect. The trait allowing the extra second of stealth would mean you wouldn’t have the 30 point trait in precision allowing 100% crit from stealth, unless you’re taking down the +% to dmg with daggers or from behind instead, in which case the same thing occurs: you aren’t the GC BS build they are complaining about because you don’t have as much dmg. Then there’s the issue of the revealed debuff, which I assume you are talking about by 3 seconds between back stabs. I would personally argue that you would either have a problem with HS auto targeting and ruining your stealth, meking it so you cant BS at all, or the time it takes you to pistol 5 + HS away from your target would most likely take you far enough away from your target that getting back in the 3 seconds of stealth would require that the target be moving towards you, or standing in place, neither of which should be your fault.

As a matter of fact, my build does exactly that: 0/30/30/10/0. Guaranteed crit in stealth, health regen in stealth + extra stealth duration, initiative regen when entering stealth with heartseeker (or even just extending the duration with a second heartseeker, which is kind of broken). +50% movespeed in stealth allowing easy backstabs. Condition removal when entering stealth, and 3 seconds after stealthing. I have +90% crit damage while maintaining 1800 toughness. 5k backstabs (though it goes up to 8k on low armor targets) every 3 seconds is nothing to be sneezed at. The build is extremely strong and relies solely on this heartseeker + black powder combo.

That’s an impressive build. (Not being sarcastic) I don’t see many D/P builds and this one looks fun. What runes/sigils/gear do you run?

However, you’re about 250 power short of being a glass cannon build, especially with 18k toughness. and your 5k backstab (while impressive) isn’t exactly comparable to the high mobility, high burst thief they are talking about. Doing this build you wouldn’t be able to down a 20k hp target in under 12 seconds with the method you described, unless youre also damaging inbetween, which would ruin the permastealth spam. Not to mention it requires that they didn’t learn after the first 3 back stabs. Your build is hardly the build they are talking about when they call thief OP.

Necrid.6247:

Forget it Buddy. Just roll thief^^

Guaranteed kill on downed enemies while stealthed – not a problem.
Cannot be damaged by marks and lots of untargeted AoE while stealthed – no big deal.
No dmg-numbers while stealthed – really no biggie.
1v1 as good as unkillable – just try harder.
Players should win by playskill, not classdesign simlicity – just an advertisement

slogan, really.
High percentage of thief players or mesmers in WvWvW – must be a coincidence.
ArenaNet should not admit that the spammable stealth of the thief class is a

gamebreaking advantage. Period.

Honestly – this is decent game. Not great or outstanding, but really decent.
This post should be deleted – like all other stealth issue posts.

Again, this is full of misinformation. THIEVES TAKE DAMAGE WHEN STEALTHED.

A stealth stomp is hardly a garunted kill. In fact, its one of the most dangerous things a thief can do.

AOE does dmg thieves, even marks.

If thieves showed dmg numbers while stealthed then it would defeat the purpose of stealth now wouldn’t it.

Thief is hardly unkillable in 1v1, but it is their specialty. get the drop on them or use CC and you have much better chances.

Thief does have a quicker, more formulaic kill pattern, making the learning curve less steep, but it also means that they are predictable and that in end game, higher skill fights thieves are weaker.

Xsorus.2507:

LOCO.1785:

Xsorus.2507:

LOCO.1785:

Xsorus.2507:

Who says Cloak and Dagger has to stealth you, and that Stealth should be the only way to give you an opener?

What if Cloak and Dagger just allowed you to use your Opener from out of Stealth?

Amazing suggestion.

Why not just get rid of stealth altogether while you’re at it?

Oh i’m sorry, you mean having the multiple utility skills you have that give you stealth isn’t good enough?

grin

So making those utilities a necessity is your solution? Making many other builds obsolete in the process?

Prefer to just leave it as is thanks, the way ANet intended.

I’m sure you’d prefer to leave it how it is, since its overpowered and not balanced at all right now.

In your opinion, which you’re entitled too. But don’t claim such to be fact.

Many of us counter stealth just fine and don’t think it requires any drastic changes like the small few that constantly repeat themselves on this forum.

Once ANet remove culling this month, the whining should calm down a bit.

LOCO.1785:

Xsorus.2507:

LOCO.1785:

Xsorus.2507:

LOCO.1785:

Xsorus.2507:

Who says Cloak and Dagger has to stealth you, and that Stealth should be the only way to give you an opener?

What if Cloak and Dagger just allowed you to use your Opener from out of Stealth?

Amazing suggestion.

Why not just get rid of stealth altogether while you’re at it?

Oh i’m sorry, you mean having the multiple utility skills you have that give you stealth isn’t good enough?

grin

So making those utilities a necessity is your solution? Making many other builds obsolete in the process?

Prefer to just leave it as is thanks, the way ANet intended.

I’m sure you’d prefer to leave it how it is, since its overpowered and not balanced at all right now.

In your opinion, which you’re entitled too. But don’t claim such to be fact.

Many of us counter stealth just fine and don’t think it requires any drastic changes like the small few that constantly repeat themselves on this forum.

Once ANet remove culling this month, the whining should calm down a bit.

Agree 100%. My “whining” is on hold until I see if Anet can actually do what they say they can…remove culling.

Rashagal.5867:

What runes/sigils/gear do you run?

Power Toughness Critdmg accessories + Mix of zerker & soldier gear (it’s like 50/50 right now and I didn’t optimize it as all the wrong pieces are zerker). Ruby orbs on everything. For sigils anything you want just not those that trigger on weapon swap.

In my opinion crowd controls such as fear, knockdown, daze and knockbacks should kick a player out of stealth =/

There are many times where I used my warriors Hammer burst skill and seeing the bar go down (indicating that it hit something) and the thief never shows up.
*a fault of culling perhaps?"

Also you can’t “remove” culling, because culling is your client deals with a large amount of data flooding in, if you your screen was empty one second then completely immersed in AoE pixels and 30 players on both your and enemy side, most computers wouldn’t even be able to handle it.

in Wvw increase “Exposed” duration by 1 or 1.5 seconds to make up for rendering….nuff said.

I only find it OP when you see those theives that stay in stelath almost PERMANENTLY. and it is so annoying and frustrating it is unbeleivable. Why cant I have a “reveal” skill? there seems to be a counter for every attack or ability in this game exept for stealth. And im sry if you call wildy swinging a sowrd or randomly guessing where the player is while under stelath, that is not a counter. that is hopping for the best of luck. It puts classes at a hugeeeee disadvantages. especially rangers since we tend to be super squishy.

Alex Caputo.7863:

It puts classes at a hugeeeee disadvantages. especially rangers since we tend to be super squishy.

The ranger has kinda been forced into only two viable builds for pvp situations. However, trap rangers are reasonably good counters against thieves. If you trait for them, they are pretty large and on very low cooldowns (12, 16, an 20s for the flame/poison/immobilize+bleeding traps), which recharge about as fast as a normal thief’s entire initiative bar (cloak and dagger costs half the initiative bar). Bunker/conditions with sword main hand do quite well against thieves. Extra power if you land an entangle (I don’t remember very clearly but it might proc even if he’s in stealth).

Maverick Holix.1382:

in Wvw increase “Exposed” duration by 1 or 1.5 seconds to make up for rendering….nuff said.

That hurts the non-bursters’ ability to sustain themselves in a fight. Culling’s being removed next patch but if a change must be made, making revealed kick in no matter what is more ideal for both side. Perserves ability to perform decently in combat and eliminates the pseudo-permastealth.

Dual.8953:

Maverick Holix.1382:

in Wvw increase “Exposed” duration by 1 or 1.5 seconds to make up for rendering….nuff said.

That hurts the non-bursters’ ability to sustain themselves in a fight. Culling’s being removed next patch but if a change must be made, making revealed kick in no matter what is more ideal for both side. Perserves ability to perform decently in combat and eliminates the pseudo-permastealth.

By sustain, you mean visible like everyone else….

Yes….It would make it harder for you to sustain yourself…..Because Stealth is OVERPOWERED.

Xsorus.2507:

Dual.8953:

Maverick Holix.1382:

in Wvw increase “Exposed” duration by 1 or 1.5 seconds to make up for rendering….nuff said.

That hurts the non-bursters’ ability to sustain themselves in a fight. Culling’s being removed next patch but if a change must be made, making revealed kick in no matter what is more ideal for both side. Perserves ability to perform decently in combat and eliminates the pseudo-permastealth.

By sustain, you mean visible like everyone else….

Yes….It would make it harder for you to sustain yourself…..Because Stealth is OVERPOWERED.

So your argument is that burst thief is op, so you should extend the time on revealed, no non burst thieves can’t rely on it to survive, thus making glass cannon builds the only viable thief build? I’m confused.

LOCO.1785:

Xsorus.2507:

LOCO.1785:

Xsorus.2507:

LOCO.1785:

Xsorus.2507:

Who says Cloak and Dagger has to stealth you, and that Stealth should be the only way to give you an opener?

What if Cloak and Dagger just allowed you to use your Opener from out of Stealth?

Amazing suggestion.

Why not just get rid of stealth altogether while you’re at it?

Oh i’m sorry, you mean having the multiple utility skills you have that give you stealth isn’t good enough?

grin

So making those utilities a necessity is your solution? Making many other builds obsolete in the process?

Prefer to just leave it as is thanks, the way ANet intended.

I’m sure you’d prefer to leave it how it is, since its overpowered and not balanced at all right now.

In your opinion, which you’re entitled too. But don’t claim such to be fact.

Many of us counter stealth just fine and don’t think it requires any drastic changes like the small few that constantly repeat themselves on this forum.

Once ANet remove culling this month, the whining should calm down a bit.

. Then culling will be replaced by horrible lag, and thieves will still have god mode.

Alex Caputo.7863:

I only find it OP when you see those theives that stay in stelath almost PERMANENTLY. and it is so annoying and frustrating it is unbeleivable. Why cant I have a “reveal” skill? there seems to be a counter for every attack or ability in this game exept for stealth. And im sry if you call wildy swinging a sowrd or randomly guessing where the player is while under stelath, that is not a counter. that is hopping for the best of luck. It puts classes at a hugeeeee disadvantages. especially rangers since we tend to be super squishy.

Perma stealth, highest dps in the game, 50% run speed. How is this balanced?