Guild Wars 2

Mayhem.1935:

amiable.4823:

Make utility googles reveal stealthed players… There you go, the engineer becomes useful as a class (anti-stealth) and stealth has a an effective hard counter but requires specialization to use. May want to add a similar utility to necros as well.

This happened in DAoC as well. The ranger/hunter/scout class had a passive ability allowing them to detect stealth. They further had a usable ability with a cooldown that made stealth obsolete to them for a short period. Sorry, dont remember the names but w/e.

If they add a stealth detection it needs to be unable to force revealed. Maybe give the thief a the transparent model allies see them as. Otherwise the detection skill would become a “Shutdown” Skill for the non-D/x stealthers. Stealth might need a statistical buff too to cope with the fact that the thief will have the tankiness of a boonless Ele, with no healing power or vigor.

Dual.8953:

Mayhem.1935:

amiable.4823:

Make utility googles reveal stealthed players… There you go, the engineer becomes useful as a class (anti-stealth) and stealth has a an effective hard counter but requires specialization to use. May want to add a similar utility to necros as well.

This happened in DAoC as well. The ranger/hunter/scout class had a passive ability allowing them to detect stealth. They further had a usable ability with a cooldown that made stealth obsolete to them for a short period. Sorry, dont remember the names but w/e.

If they add a stealth detection it needs to be unable to force revealed. Maybe give the thief a the transparent model allies see them as. Otherwise the detection skill would become a “Shutdown” Skill for the non-D/x stealthers. Stealth might need a statistical buff too to cope with the fact that the thief will have the tankiness of a boonless Ele, with no healing power or vigor.

I was thinking it would only reveal for the player using it. So if they had good group coordination they might be able to ff on the thief (folks will see the general direction/place the person with the stealth reveal is attacking). Make this "personal reveal last for like 5-10 seconds on a long cooldown. Rewards coordinated groups (as it should be).

Mayhem.1935:

Daeqar.8965:

Sunflowers.1729:

sPvP is based around holding points with very small numbers of people. WvW is not. If you fight a thief in sPvP and he is unable to kill your fully bunker build, you win cause you have successfully defended the point. If the same thing happens in WvW it is at best a draw, unless you both happen to be solo with no NPCs (which is extremely rare) in a supply camp or something.

And WvW is based around holding points (objectives) with very large numbers of people. Thief happens to be even worse at that comparatively than with very small numbers.

Yet so many people want to be terribly worried about what happens when they run around solo, even when it has very little impact on contributing to a win.

Completely untrue. GC thief? Equip a short bow in a tower/keep/castle and go to work dropping long duration posion fields and cluster bombs for 3-7k at a rather rapid pace. Thieves like to make other players believe they are bad at keep defense to make up for being unopposable in open settings. Just stop lying. Listen, i play p/d +d/p in open world, but if i want to attack/defend a tower, i toss on a Shortbow and GET TO WORK.

Shortbow is the only useful team build for a thief in WvW. Although, not so much for standing around on a wall raining down aoe, which is pretty lame team play for pretty much any class. It’s pretty easy for folks to to simply walk out of aoe or just stack up and tank it if ramming gates or something. What it is useful for is the on demand blast finishers. And running it with glass cannon gear is a terrible idea if you intend to do your job and stay stacked up with your team for coordinated fighting zerg vs. zerg.

Even so, other classes still have much better and broader team building options. Having one niche use in a group doesn’t equate to a class with powerful team-oriented build options.

Sounds like I’ve been “getting to work” a lot more with my team/guild a lot more than you have.

Stealth is fine.

I’ve never lost a fight due to stealth.

I’ve never heard of a stealth build soloing 4 people. Never heard of. Ever. I’d need to see some video evidence of this.

I DO NOT play a stealth build.

hex.3218:

Stealth is fine.

I’ve never lost a fight due to stealth.

I’ve never heard of a stealth build soloing 4 people. Never heard of. Ever. I’d need to see some video evidence of this.

I DO NOT play a stealth build.

just saw a guy from my server taking a 10 man group

• and he saved hills castle pretty awesome damage!
• he barelly entered in stealth mode

Another option is to add a “faerie fire” or tracking type of skill, which would prevent the thief from stealthing for x seconds if they are hit with it while in combat, or maybe cause the thief to leave glowing footprint marks behind while in stealth, which would become visible only if within a certain radius from the player doing the tracking.

This would not destroy stealth gameplay, but it would make it more difficult to get away for thieves, especially if they attack larger groups (hence higher chances that they will get hit by one of the above skills). The inconvenience of not being able to easily stealth and disengage would be compensated by the fact that someone would have to slot a utility skill specifically designed to counter thieves, and otherwise useless in combat, so not everyone would be running around with a “thief radar”.

Daeqar.8965:

Yet so many people want to be terribly worried about what happens when they run around solo, even when it has very little impact on contributing to a win.

Agreed. I think this is why so many of these threads de-rail.

It is a complete straw-man to portray ‘stealth users’ as GC thieves, as an argument against stealth.

It annoys me (as a thief) when I die to a solo-thief, but lets get this into context: it has almost no bearing on how a WvW match-up plays out.

This just another soapbox thread waiting to be closed out by the mods, at least it’s more imaginative than ‘Thieves need nerfing’ I guess. There is a thread for thief feedback.

Gaudrath.6725:

Another option is to add a “faerie fire” or tracking type of skill, which would prevent the thief from stealthing for x seconds if they are hit with it while in combat, or maybe cause the thief to leave glowing footprint marks behind while in stealth, which would become visible only if within a certain radius from the player doing the tracking.

This would not destroy stealth gameplay, but it would make it more difficult to get away for thieves, especially if they attack larger groups (hence higher chances that they will get hit by one of the above skills). The inconvenience of not being able to easily stealth and disengage would be compensated by the fact that someone would have to slot a utility skill specifically designed to counter thieves, and otherwise useless in combat, so not everyone would be running around with a “thief radar”.

This is a pretty good idea, but instead of a new utility skill (that is useless for anything else) why not add it to your current weapon skills. For example it could be warrior rifle and longbow that have a tag on a thief in stealth, put on one of their longer CD weapon skills, and only lasts for a very short time. You would put it on two weapons so no class ever feels like it’s FORCED to run that weapon.

And in return, you would have to buff thieves to compensate for this. Sorry, just how it is.

hex.3218:

Stealth is fine.

I’ve never lost a fight due to stealth.

I’ve never heard of a stealth build soloing 4 people. Never heard of. Ever. I’d need to see some video evidence of this.

I DO NOT play a stealth build.

LordByron.8369:

slender.1482:

I don’t understand why the elementalists don’t ride the lightning to me the second I start using sneak attack,

self stun is not fun you know….
And then you say L2p

What? Yes it is your 100% best best. The second you see my bullets firing from sneak attack, your ride the lightning should be used. Same goes for any other type of gap closer/magnet/stun/knockback.

Guardians who understand how to use aegis to block backstab, to block CnD, and NOT to block my autoattack will win guaranteed. An ele who lands ride the lghtning, or uses it to stop my sneak attack and force a dodge WILL force me to leave the fight or die.

The biggest issue is the nerd rage, and no not using the term in a negative way, it’s just a hilariously true definition. When a stealther runs away from the fight and leaves the enemy with no kill, people get mad and call for nerfs. When the thief kills them by using stealth, nerfs.

But I don’t think alot of people get that thieves have no knockdowns, no burst with CC, no CC with burst, no aegis, no protection, no block. Stealth is literally the ONLY way my p/d build survives. This is like crying for guardians to lose their mitigation, or for mesmers to give up copies, engi to give up healing, ele to give up condi removal. It the nature of the class using its abilities.

And like I said many times before, WvW chaotic fighting enables stealthers to exploit stealth so easily and in a punishing way. I’m able to position myself around groups of players, attack, disappear, and leave them running around like chickens with no heads while the lowbie and inexperienced players die off so easily. To contrast, I could fight a group of 4 players new to the game and win, but fight a single engi who knows the class and lose miserably.

slender.1482:

engi to give up healing,

Your healing in stealth is FAR better then overall engi healing, especially in the thief bunker specs. In answer to your question as to why folks don’t immediately target you out of stealth the answer is 2-fold. 1. Culling, 2. Tab targeting in this game is absolute kitten, pretty much requiring you to manual target. The combination of one or both of those things make it incredibly difficult to target a thief before they are able to re-stealth. Trust me, sit on the other side of a class fighting a stealther and those two issues become immediately obvious, fixing culling alone won’t solve the problem. Stealth would not be anywhere near annoying if it automatically re-targetted stealther upon exiting.

amiable.4823:

Stealth would not be anywhere near annoying if it automatically re-targetted stealther upon exiting.

I absolutely agree.
To introduce so much stealth in a mmo with pvp was a huge mistake from my point of view. Stealth is the worst thing you could every implement. However it is in there and there is no way it will be removed.
However for me it would be ok if I would not loose target each time.

cubed.2853:

amiable.4823:

Stealth would not be anywhere near annoying if it automatically re-targetted stealther upon exiting.

I absolutely agree.

Make that another +1, I’d love to see this change. This + fixing culling should solve most of the stealth balance issues.
Balance aside, I find it to be an annoying mechanic that should have never been added, but if we are stuck with it, let’s balance it the best we can.

Piedplat.3597:

hex.3218:

Stealth is fine.

I’ve never lost a fight due to stealth.

I’ve never heard of a stealth build soloing 4 people. Never heard of. Ever. I’d need to see some video evidence of this.

I DO NOT play a stealth build.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7799to8aGcQ

That isn’t evidence of a thief soloing 1v4. In fact, that doesn’t even show you losing a fight because of stealth.

The ranger didn’t lose that fight. The thief lost the fight because he had to run away. The ranger did everything right defensively. The only advice I would have given was that I only saw 1 CC that whole fight. That thief was above avg to stay alive that long. A couple more CC spells and that thief would have been toast.

This video didn’t show anything other than that the culling issue needs to be addressed. It was a very balanced fight.

D W.5179:

cubed.2853:

amiable.4823:

Stealth would not be anywhere near annoying if it automatically re-targetted stealther upon exiting.

I absolutely agree.

Make that another +1, I’d love to see this change. This + fixing culling should solve most of the stealth balance issues.
Balance aside, I find it to be an annoying mechanic that should have never been added, but if we are stuck with it, let’s balance it the best we can.

The reason it doesn’t is because of mesmers. clones and decoys would be rendered pointless if they re targeted the real mesmer. Its bad enough they show which mesmer is the real one when downed.

amiable.4823:

slender.1482:

engi to give up healing,

Your healing in stealth is FAR better then overall engi healing

With healing power on all of my armor and weapons, gives me +500 healing power, my stealth heal ticks for 342/sec and is the only other heal I have besides HiS. Bleeds tick for 104-111 depending on might and auto attacks hit for sub 100. The only reason I survive any sort of FF is with 21k hp/2.5k armor. 100% bunker specced, there’s no reason anybody should be sticking around to fight me for more than a minute. Its so silly to fight a bunker spec of anything, ever, the only way you’ll lose is if you let me widdle you down.

I agree that culling is a major contributor to the problem, I’ve said it many times already. If you notice in sPvP stealth is no problem at all. It’s because of 1) no culling and 2) much smaller groups. Less chaos in sPvP and no culling = you find that stealther right away (look for stealthing swirls animation is so easy mode).

Allowing to target the stealther while in stealth is not the answer, it would completely negate the point of stealth.

I think that we should be able to put a target over the stealther’s head, and that target should not be lost unless you choose to. Only with the target will you be auto-targetted back to the stealther. Similar to the current focus red target already in game but with more utility to it. Whether it is a totally new command and color, ie) press F12 to place a green arrow over the player, for example or some kind of option in settings to enable, I think this is the best bet for auto targetting.

An automatic targeting system seems too far – in that there’s no effort involved in the process. If you want to target the thief you must first see and find him and manually target, not just sit back and wait

I must be the biggest pro ever ,but thieves are nothing 1v1 against me. The only time a thief will kill me is if I’m not at full health or some of my skills are on cooldown. I run multiple professions and I have not died from a 1v1 thief encounter other than the scenario above.

Seriously , there is nothing wrong or OP about stealth. Thieves are so predictable and you should never be dying from them especially if they are glass cannons. Thieves are meant to be finisher profession. They are great support finishers.

If you are dying from a 1v1 thief , it is your build or your personal player skill. A single block can turn the tide in your favor against a thief.

Thieves are all about rhythm and if you can break that rhythm you have them killed.

PFFT thief stealth OP lol. Thats a joke.

Stealth is overpowered BECAUSE it’s the thief’s main and ONLY trump card. I understand the fustration of fighting thieves well. My main toon is a thief and at the same time I’ve seen how annoying they an be on other characters HOWEVER…. You cannot and I emphasize CANNOT ‘Nurf’ stealth WITHOUT ‘nurfing’ the Thief profession as a whole. Stealth is the only feature that makes a thief a thief. We could use daggers like any other class. Use pistols and look like engineers. Use short bows and seem like rangers but that’s all a thief would be. A low-grade engineer or ranger.

Rashagal.5867:

D W.5179:

cubed.2853:

amiable.4823:

Stealth would not be anywhere near annoying if it automatically re-targetted stealther upon exiting.

I absolutely agree.

Make that another +1, I’d love to see this change. This + fixing culling should solve most of the stealth balance issues.
Balance aside, I find it to be an annoying mechanic that should have never been added, but if we are stuck with it, let’s balance it the best we can.

The reason it doesn’t is because of mesmers. clones and decoys would be rendered pointless if they re targeted the real mesmer. Its bad enough they show which mesmer is the real one when downed.

You can already keep a mesmer marked, just party target them and ignore the clones. This is a common practice in sPvP anyway.

Rashagal.5867:

D W.5179:

cubed.2853:

amiable.4823:

Stealth would not be anywhere near annoying if it automatically re-targetted stealther upon exiting.

I absolutely agree.

Make that another +1, I’d love to see this change. This + fixing culling should solve most of the stealth balance issues.
Balance aside, I find it to be an annoying mechanic that should have never been added, but if we are stuck with it, let’s balance it the best we can.

The reason it doesn’t is because of mesmers. clones and decoys would be rendered pointless if they re targeted the real mesmer. Its bad enough they show which mesmer is the real one when downed.

They are not pointless in a large fight and they serve kittenter fodder. in addition decoy would still provide more than enough time to disengage form combat. In even a small group fight where you may need to retarget they are very useful. But decoy is again one of the primary reasons why mesmers are so high up on the meta. The ability to force opponents to lose targeting allows you to dictate the terms of the fight. This would be less of an issue if culling and tab targetting were fixed. That’s why thieves are so forgiving to play, to beat one you need to have specific tools to deal with the thief or incredibly good reaction times, which would be fine if the class required the same from the thief, currently it doesn’t. How about this: you may not target anything while in stealth, you must leave stealth in order to target. That would put everyone on a more even playing field from a skill perspective.

Daeqar.8965:

Sunflowers.1729:

sPvP is based around holding points with very small numbers of people. WvW is not. If you fight a thief in sPvP and he is unable to kill your fully bunker build, you win cause you have successfully defended the point. If the same thing happens in WvW it is at best a draw, unless you both happen to be solo with no NPCs (which is extremely rare) in a supply camp or something.

And WvW is based around holding points (objectives) with very large numbers of people. Thief happens to be even worse at that comparatively than with very small numbers.

Yet so many people want to be terribly worried about what happens when they run around solo, even when it has very little impact on contributing to a win.

Where does it say that only thieves are allowed to solo?

Secondly, if Spvp and WvWvW are the same, how about we balance thieves in WvWvW the same way they are balanced in Spvp?

in my opinion stealth is such a easy mechanic that allows players the ability to escape certain death due to the lack of defensive quality that other classes have more of . mesmers use stealth to mostly for run an gun tactics where as thiefs use stealth for either a big opening attack or to escape a situation that could result in their own death .

most people will say it’s player skill , but i bet anyone that if their class had a 10 second stealth on foot to escape certain death they would more likely use it over any other skill . so i look at the class in general and can see poor class design that requires stealth to begin with .

1 – Get rid of stealth reviving and stomping.
2 – Nerf Shadow’s Embrace.

Columba.9730:

Daeqar.8965:

Sunflowers.1729:

sPvP is based around holding points with very small numbers of people. WvW is not. If you fight a thief in sPvP and he is unable to kill your fully bunker build, you win cause you have successfully defended the point. If the same thing happens in WvW it is at best a draw, unless you both happen to be solo with no NPCs (which is extremely rare) in a supply camp or something.

And WvW is based around holding points (objectives) with very large numbers of people. Thief happens to be even worse at that comparatively than with very small numbers.

Yet so many people want to be terribly worried about what happens when they run around solo, even when it has very little impact on contributing to a win.

Where does it say that only thieves are allowed to solo?

Secondly, if Spvp and WvWvW are the same, how about we balance thieves in WvWvW the same way they are balanced in Spvp?

You cannot balance WvW as sPvP. WvW has culling issues because of the mass amount of players. And because of the mass of amount of players thieves are able to move around in stealth and pick straggler targets with ease. Also in WvW there are lowbie players who get destroyed by thieves – in sPvP we are all on the same playing field with level and gear; optimized for even and fair pvp. WvW is not even and fair

Xsorus.2507:

I love when thieves start claiming that Balance isn’t needed in PvP because World vs World is all about taking keeps/towers grin

Or that all other classes need to L2P, lol. Where are the 70 page complaint threads against all other classes? Why are all the nerf stealth threads so popular and constantly shut down, if thieves are just fine?

slender.1482:

Columba.9730:

Daeqar.8965:

Sunflowers.1729:

sPvP is based around holding points with very small numbers of people. WvW is not. If you fight a thief in sPvP and he is unable to kill your fully bunker build, you win cause you have successfully defended the point. If the same thing happens in WvW it is at best a draw, unless you both happen to be solo with no NPCs (which is extremely rare) in a supply camp or something.

And WvW is based around holding points (objectives) with very large numbers of people. Thief happens to be even worse at that comparatively than with very small numbers.

Yet so many people want to be terribly worried about what happens when they run around solo, even when it has very little impact on contributing to a win.

Where does it say that only thieves are allowed to solo?

Secondly, if Spvp and WvWvW are the same, how about we balance thieves in WvWvW the same way they are balanced in Spvp?

You cannot balance WvW as sPvP. WvW has culling issues because of the mass amount of players. And because of the mass of amount of players thieves are able to move around in stealth and pick straggler targets with ease. Also in WvW there are lowbie players who get destroyed by thieves – in sPvP we are all on the same playing field with level and gear; optimized for even and fair pvp. WvW is not even and fair

Umm culling benefits thieves the most, so why haven’t thieves been balance to the same degree they have been in Spvp,, eg nerfed to Spvp? If culling helps them more, then why have they been made MORE powerful in WvWvW?

Pets should be able to detect anyone in stealth and they should give rangers a tracking skill that will bring up a list of players near them that they can select from to track as a red dot on the map.
Or give every class the same stealth abilities as easymode thieves.

FearSeven.6357:

1 – Get rid of stealth reviving and stomping.
2 – Nerf Shadow’s Embrace.

And what would you propose is done? Just rambling about things you think are wrong because of how you lost to it won’t ever help.

A warrior/guardian can res a player with stability, shields, aegis, protection, etc. An ele can mist form back to the lines and guarantee a res for himself. A thief can stealth and res. Without the stealth a thief can ….? Even so, if I try to stealth res or stomp against a group of competent players, I WILL die. How about next time you see a thief stealth stomping, you AOE the player he’s stomping, or even counter stealth the player, knock backs on the player, it’s so easy.

Shadow’s embrace is the only condi removal thieves have and costs 6 initiative or a minimum 40 second cooldown to trigger. With black powder builds it costs 6+3-2(refunded) initiative to activate stealth. What do you propose to nerf shadow’s embrace or stealth stomps? All I see is resenting a mechanic that you lost against with no insight on how it even works.

Actually the best way to go is leave stealth as is and nerf the damage by about 50%.

vitali.1609:

Pets should be able to detect anyone in stealth and they should give rangers a tracking skill that will bring up a list of players near them that they can select from to track as a red dot on the map.
Or give every class the same stealth abilities as easymode thieves.

This would be fair since our pets are fairly useless now.

slender.1482:

FearSeven.6357:

1 – Get rid of stealth reviving and stomping.
2 – Nerf Shadow’s Embrace.

And what would you propose is done? Just rambling about things you think are wrong because of how you lost to it won’t ever help.

A warrior/guardian can res a player with stability, shields, aegis, protection, etc. An ele can mist form back to the lines and guarantee a res for himself. A thief can stealth and res. Without the stealth a thief can ….? Even so, if I try to stealth res or stomp against a group of competent players, I WILL die. How about next time you see a thief stealth stomping, you AOE the player he’s stomping, or even counter stealth the player, knock backs on the player, it’s so easy.

Shadow’s embrace is the only condi removal thieves have and costs 6 initiative or a minimum 40 second cooldown to trigger. With black powder builds it costs 6+3-2(refunded) initiative to activate stealth. What do you propose to nerf shadow’s embrace or stealth stomps? All I see is resenting a mechanic that you lost against with no insight on how it even works.

A thief can take the same risks we do by rezzing others.

Sunflowers.1729:

Umm culling benefits thieves the most, so why haven’t thieves been balance to the same degree they have been in Spvp,, eg nerfed to Spvp? If culling helps them more, then why have they been made MORE powerful in WvWvW?

Did you read what I said at all? take a couple minutes to understand it.

WvW and sPvP are not the same, not even remotely close, and thus stealth has hugely different impacts in each.

Culling exists in WvW and is the MAJOR factor to why stealth is so effective. Mass groups of players roam around WvW maps with little to no coordination with each other, while in sPvP your focus is on small control points with small groups.

Sunflowers.1729:

Umm culling benefits thieves the most

yes

Sunflowers.1729:

If culling helps them more, then why have they been made MORE powerful in WvWvW?

read above

slender.1482:

Sunflowers.1729:

Umm culling benefits thieves the most, so why haven’t thieves been balance to the same degree they have been in Spvp,, eg nerfed to Spvp? If culling helps them more, then why have they been made MORE powerful in WvWvW?

Did you read what I said at all? take a couple minutes to understand it.

WvW and sPvP are not the same, not even remotely close, and thus stealth has hugely different impacts in each.

Culling exists in WvW and is the MAJOR factor to why stealth is so effective. Mass groups of players roam around WvW maps with little to no coordination with each other, while in sPvP your focus is on small control points with small groups.

Sunflowers.1729:

Umm culling benefits thieves the most

yes

Sunflowers.1729:

If culling helps them more, then why have they been made MORE powerful in WvWvW?

read above

Yep. So if culling helps stealth, then thieves should be at best equally powerful in WvWvW vs Spvp. Today thief dps is much higher in WvWvW and their stealth is much better. Doesn’t make sense.

slender.1482:

FearSeven.6357:

1 – Get rid of stealth reviving and stomping.
2 – Nerf Shadow’s Embrace.

And what would you propose is done? Just rambling about things you think are wrong because of how you lost to it won’t ever help.

A warrior/guardian can res a player with stability, shields, aegis, protection, etc. An ele can mist form back to the lines and guarantee a res for himself. A thief can stealth and res. Without the stealth a thief can ….? Even so, if I try to stealth res or stomp against a group of competent players, I WILL die. How about next time you see a thief stealth stomping, you AOE the player he’s stomping, or even counter stealth the player, knock backs on the player, it’s so easy.

Shadow’s embrace is the only condi removal thieves have and costs 6 initiative or a minimum 40 second cooldown to trigger. With black powder builds it costs 6+3-2(refunded) initiative to activate stealth. What do you propose to nerf shadow’s embrace or stealth stomps? All I see is resenting a mechanic that you lost against with no insight on how it even works.

Reasoning? I thought it was so obvious, I didn’t had to explain it.

But for you:

Stealth stomping: No counter, I can’t target you. With all the other examples you gave, I can still target you and try to get you down with the 1 skill, or they use skills with a very long cooldown, which stealth isn’t. Downstate is supposed to give you still a fighting chance in a close match. But against a thief, if you’re down, you’re death.

Shadow’s embrace: There is no counter for stealth, except mass blind AoE damage like you said, which is crazy. Condition damage should be the counter for stealth, but with this trait and the heal while stealthed, there is no counter and thiefs can reset the fight whenever the like. I said nerf Shadow’s embrace, not remove it and give thiefs another condition remover in return, that’s not stealthbased.

FearSeven.6357:

1 – Get rid of stealth reviving and stomping.

Mist stomp > Shrink stomp > Stability stomp > Swiftness stomp > Stealth stomp.

Bubble revives > Chain invuln revives > Stealth revives.

Columba.9730:

slender.1482:

FearSeven.6357:

1 – Get rid of stealth reviving and stomping.
2 – Nerf Shadow’s Embrace.

And what would you propose is done? Just rambling about things you think are wrong because of how you lost to it won’t ever help.

A warrior/guardian can res a player with stability, shields, aegis, protection, etc. An ele can mist form back to the lines and guarantee a res for himself. A thief can stealth and res. Without the stealth a thief can ….? Even so, if I try to stealth res or stomp against a group of competent players, I WILL die. How about next time you see a thief stealth stomping, you AOE the player he’s stomping, or even counter stealth the player, knock backs on the player, it’s so easy.

Shadow’s embrace is the only condi removal thieves have and costs 6 initiative or a minimum 40 second cooldown to trigger. With black powder builds it costs 6+3-2(refunded) initiative to activate stealth. What do you propose to nerf shadow’s embrace or stealth stomps? All I see is resenting a mechanic that you lost against with no insight on how it even works.

A thief can take the same risks we do by rezzing others.

Fine. Now give use our Invulerability, Stability, Aegis and Protection.

Teamkiller.4315:

Gaudrath.6725:

Another option is to add a “faerie fire” or tracking type of skill, which would prevent the thief from stealthing for x seconds if they are hit with it while in combat, or maybe cause the thief to leave glowing footprint marks behind while in stealth, which would become visible only if within a certain radius from the player doing the tracking.

This would not destroy stealth gameplay, but it would make it more difficult to get away for thieves, especially if they attack larger groups (hence higher chances that they will get hit by one of the above skills). The inconvenience of not being able to easily stealth and disengage would be compensated by the fact that someone would have to slot a utility skill specifically designed to counter thieves, and otherwise useless in combat, so not everyone would be running around with a “thief radar”.

This is a pretty good idea, but instead of a new utility skill (that is useless for anything else) why not add it to your current weapon skills. For example it could be warrior rifle and longbow that have a tag on a thief in stealth, put on one of their longer CD weapon skills, and only lasts for a very short time. You would put it on two weapons so no class ever feels like it’s FORCED to run that weapon.

And in return, you would have to buff thieves to compensate for this. Sorry, just how it is.

It’d have to only make the thief visible to the naked eye. If it knocked thieves out of stealth it’d be the definition of a shutdown skill the for P/D set. It’d be nearly as harsh on the S/D set as well.

Thieves have access to most of those already. And teleport with no cooldown.

The bottom line is that no one enjoys playing against thieves in Eve and that is because of stealth. That needs to be fixed.

slender:

you forgot
3) stat caps and 4) thief dmg reductions in spvp. Big differences. Spvp is a different bird all together. Though i get your point about culling.

As a P/D thief, i’m wondering how a group of players can stop me, a single thief, from mowing down dolyaks while they are guarding them. Because i do this regularly and i cant think of a single instance where a dolyak got to the keep/tower that i decided to kill. I’ve seen roughly 10 players run around, aoeing everything. i just C/d that eagle griffon, walk within range, press “1”, and repeat. Yea, sometimes i have to use utilities to stealth if i get stunned, w/e but guess what, my stealth heals me and removes it instantly so.. I guess my problem with stealth is it isn’t hard or challenging. It’s not like its skill. I’m not some master at this game.

Now, to the thread fixes that i think would work:
-Culling (Duh)
-Until culling is removed completely, balance stealth time (longer revealed?), then put it back to normal when culling is gone.
-Ranger pets should have track hidden or some other mechanic that will alert or be aggressive to hidden targets.
-Engineers could have a utility that would passively let them see players stealthed within a small radius.
-Stealth shouldnt necessarily be removed if you have a condition, but certain effects should remove it. Stuns, Knockbacks, Knockdowns, are good examples.
-Stealth stomping is a bad design flaw. An engi shrunk ? Mesmers can target him and teleport away. You need a target to use abilities like that. A guard has stability? At least your friend can punish him by 100b or w/e else while hes doing it. The problem here is the inability to target. Give a thief something else for this.

Look, i play a thief as my main. Im about to quit it though because it is terribly OP in WvW and i dont like to be apart of the problem. I would gladly give up some stuff for some PVE buffs.

Columba.9730:

Where does it say that only thieves are allowed to solo?

Secondly, if Spvp and WvWvW are the same, how about we balance thieves in WvWvW the same way they are balanced in Spvp?

No where, and there’s lots of people that run around with D/D Ele, GS Warr, Mesmer, and even some Necros and bunker troll Guardian builds and the like running around solo looking for 1v1 targets. And lots of them have great success with it and particularly look for Thieves to single out. I even saw a Ranger doing it last night who was shockingly good, although I’m not entirely sure he wasn’t cheating because I saw him using abilities of sorts that were completely new to me.

The thing is, most other classes have lots of good teamplay options to build for – and they use them. Why would they setup for dueling instead of setup to actually win? Thieves don’t have much of an option because small scale is literally the only thing the class is good at – the only thing that makes them special. They are deliberately designed to be lacking in other areas as a trade-off. The only logical thing left to do is scrounge for small scale tasks in WvW that are helpful and just be really good at them, no matter how limited those tasks may be.

Dont think i ever lost a 1on1 to a thief when playing my condition mesmer.

But maybe because i played the thief for 1k+ hours and know the class inside out…

Daeqar.8965:

Columba.9730:

Where does it say that only thieves are allowed to solo?

Secondly, if Spvp and WvWvW are the same, how about we balance thieves in WvWvW the same way they are balanced in Spvp?

No where, and there’s lots of people that run around with D/D Ele, GS Warr, Mesmer, and even some Necros and bunker troll Guardian builds and the like running around solo looking for 1v1 targets. And lots of them have great success with it and particularly look for Thieves to single out. I even saw a Ranger doing it last night who was shockingly good, although I’m not entirely sure he wasn’t cheating because I saw him using abilities of sorts that were completely new to me.

The thing is, most other classes have lots of good teamplay options to build for – and they use them. Why would they setup for dueling instead of setup to actually win? Thieves don’t have much of an option because small scale is literally the only thing the class is good at – the only thing that makes them special. They are deliberately designed to be lacking in other areas as a trade-off. The only logical thing left to do is scrounge for small scale tasks in WvW that are helpful and just be really good at them, no matter how limited those tasks may be.

Because manning that arrow cart is to beneath a thief in large scale, am i right?

Mayhem.1935:

Because manning that arrow cart is to beneath a thief in large scale, am i right?

Of course not, but it certainly doesn’t make a thief special, unique, or worth playing. No class’s role in WvW should be manning an arrow cart because there’s nothing else they can do as well or better than someone else. After all, manning flame rams is already off the table since thieves are squishy.

What I would like to see changed:
-Decreased movement speed when stealthed.
-Longer stealth CD times and/or shorter stealth duration times and/or longer revealed buff.
-A skill that can detect stealthed players, and give revealed buff.

Mayhem.1935:

Daeqar.8965:

Columba.9730:

Where does it say that only thieves are allowed to solo?

Secondly, if Spvp and WvWvW are the same, how about we balance thieves in WvWvW the same way they are balanced in Spvp?

No where, and there’s lots of people that run around with D/D Ele, GS Warr, Mesmer, and even some Necros and bunker troll Guardian builds and the like running around solo looking for 1v1 targets. And lots of them have great success with it and particularly look for Thieves to single out. I even saw a Ranger doing it last night who was shockingly good, although I’m not entirely sure he wasn’t cheating because I saw him using abilities of sorts that were completely new to me.

The thing is, most other classes have lots of good teamplay options to build for – and they use them. Why would they setup for dueling instead of setup to actually win? Thieves don’t have much of an option because small scale is literally the only thing the class is good at – the only thing that makes them special. They are deliberately designed to be lacking in other areas as a trade-off. The only logical thing left to do is scrounge for small scale tasks in WvW that are helpful and just be really good at them, no matter how limited those tasks may be.

Because manning that arrow cart is to beneath a thief in large scale, am i right?

My boar could man an arrow cart if the system would let him. I will admit though in PvDoor, siege is great for badge farming.

Mayhem.1935:

As a P/D thief, i’m wondering how a group of players can stop me, a single thief, from mowing down dolyaks while they are guarding them.

This is reminiscent of a change I proposed to the GC thief build a while back. You were almost guaranteed to get the kill, but in so doing, it severely hindered your ability to escape. Do you regularly get away when there are people guarding? Because if there are more than 2 guys guarding, I usually have to choose my life or the dolyaks.

-Culling (Duh)
-Until culling is removed completely, balance stealth time (longer revealed?), then put it back to normal when culling is gone.

Culling is supposed to be removed next patch isn’t it? I mean, my hopes aren’t exactly high, but I believe that’s what Anet has said.

-Stealth shouldnt necessarily be removed if you have a condition, but certain effects should remove it. Stuns, Knockbacks, Knockdowns, are good examples.

Knockdowns removing stealth seem like a common sense move to me. Thieves are all about grace, so it seems like being knocked on your kitten should be a very ungraceful occurrence that would counter stealth. However, with the knockdown timers presently, if I am knocked down and not in Shadow Refuge I will be out of stealth by the time I get up anyways, but I get that those extra seconds could be crucial. I’m not sure about stuns though.

-Stealth stomping is a bad design flaw. An engi shrunk ? Mesmers can target him and teleport away. You need a target to use abilities like that. A guard has stability? At least your friend can punish him by 100b or w/e else while hes doing it. The problem here is the inability to target. Give a thief something else for this.

Here’s where I disagree with you. Stomping is bar none the single most dangerous thing a thief can do. Even when stealth stomping we are VERY fragile. It seems like your argument is based more around fixing mesmer down states away from relying on a target than it is around thief being overpowered. I think a better approach would be buffing and changing engy, and mesmer down stated rather than changing thief upstate.

Riselight.3695:

What I would like to see changed:
-Decreased movement speed when stealthed.
-Longer stealth CD times and/or shorter stealth duration times and/or longer revealed buff.
-A skill that can detect stealthed players, and give revealed buff.

So you want Pistol/Dagger and Sword/Dagger to be rendered worthless so all thieves will be forced to run Dagger mainhand heartseeker spamming builds?

Stealth is equivilant to an Elite.

Most Elites prolong death or provide Burst Dmg.

Stealth gives the avenue for both of these aspects.

Give Stealth the Cooldown of an Elite via increasing the Stealth Debuff to 20+seconds.

Make thieves use tactic’s, not abuse of an ill thought out ability.

If they come out of stealth, they are forced to fight for more than 3 seconds, then hide again.

Amins.3710:

Stealth is equivilant to an Elite.

Most Elites prolong death or provide Burst Dmg.

Stealth gives the avenue for both of these aspects.

Give Stealth the Cooldown of an Elite via increasing the Stealth Debuff to 20+seconds.

Make thieves use tactic’s, not abuse of an ill thought out ability.

If they come out of stealth, they are forced to fight for more than 3 seconds, then hide again.

I had a copper for the of amount I have to times I’ve had to explain this I’d be able to buy my Precursor.

This suggestion would render the S/D and P/D worthless, forcing P/D to only fight with its incredibly weak auto attack and making S/D completely inferior to S/P. And better yet, this suggestion will do very little to stop D/x builds from making insane Backstab bursts and spamming Heartseeker.