Guild Wars 2

You answered your own problem its not as good i spvp but really good for skirmishing. Different build are good at different things and different classes are good at different things. A thief cant jump into a zerg and swing a hammer around and come out alive should we nerf guards and warriors cause they play differently? A thief also cant aoe almost an entire wall with marks or ele aoe spells should we nerf them cause they also do something different. I think you see the trend here.

Classes are good at their own thing for thieves that skirmishing. Also i dont play a d/p thief so dont think im just trying to defend my spec.

Jabberwock.9014:

For god sake, thieves should not be able to spam perma-stealth with this easy as pie black powder heart seeker combo. Not only can they stealth with it, but it is extremely hard to interrupt because the kitten field blinds you too (and they’ll probably just stun-break or shadowstep away even if you do). Even if you manage to get them on low initiative or health for half a second they can just use their heal or utility to stealth until both regen (which takes no time at all). Throw 2 thieves in the mix and you have an unkillable duo since they can further stealth eachother with shadow refuge and smoke fields even when one has it on cooldown/has low initiative respectively. Maybe if thief was properly designed to be ineffective with low initiative there would be no problem, but because their dagger autoattack is supremely effective (especially when stealthed) there is absolutely no disincentive to blow initiative on stealthing at every possible opportunity.

In sPvP it may be fine because you can’t take objectives while stealthed, but in WvW skirmishes this is beyond broken.

if you catch a thief on low initiative you should be able to kill them. if you can’t you should stop playing

speaking of which how badly were you rolled today by a thief?

Another nerf thief thread.

Moving along.

It is one thing to be strong in skirmishes. It is another to be completely unkillable in a pack of 5 enemies while potentially picking them off one at a time (if they are uncoordinated, which is most groups) with little to no effort. Anet obviously created thieves with the intention of initiative being harder to get, or they would never have put a no-cooldown self-stealthing combo in the game. However with regenerating initiative in stealths and with the variety of initiative regen traits, initiative might as well not even be there. The worst part is even relative noobs can be good with this combo because, really, how can you be bad when your enemy can never see you.. it is 0 risk, extremely high reward, which should never fly in any game. Unfortunately it is even worse in the hands of a skilled player.

And last time I checked, thieves had ranged aoe for attacking towers so don’t give me that.

i havent counter any problem from dp in 5v5 tpvp, but when 1v1 they are definitely godlike and more annoying then sd. not to mention wvw..

GuardianOMS.8067:

Another nerf thief thread.

Moving along.

Perhaps there is a reason, hmm? No, they must be perfectly balanced and all these people are just delusional, right…

Gotta congratulate the Anet team on the stellar design of the class. They will be remembered in the MMO community for years to come as the guys who came up with the most broken stealth class in history.

Oh by the way..it was not what they intended initially. Takes a special dev to kitten up that much.

When you see Black Powder go down, maybe you should try standing inside it so that they can’t HS without hitting you, which, amazingly enough, breaks their stealth and gives them Revealed.

Jscull.2514:

EZ mode class- allows bad players to feel like they can compete.

Put the same player on a warrior/guardian, and see how good they are in open field without stealth. TERRIBLE.

Nice troll comparing Thief to Guardian (aka the most carried class in the game) give a Guardian a hammer and a staff and they will not die. I’m almost always the last man standing on my guard, because all I have to do when my low is hit staff 4 and I’m good as new. How’s that? I don’t even need stealth to reset the fight.

sinject.4607:

if you catch a thief on low initiative you should be able to kill them. if you can’t you should stop playing

That’s a good one. You realize these thieves gain 2 initiative from entering stealth, gain an extra 3 initiative every 10 seconds, gain 2 initiative for each signet (including heal), all on top of the normal initiative gain of 1 per 1.33 seconds (which continues while stealthed)? They will almost never have no initiative, and even if worst comes to worst and they run out they can just shadow refuge and gain all their initiative and health back. Tell me again how I should kill that?

Bethryn.4087:

When you see Black Powder go down, maybe you should try standing inside it so that they can’t HS without hitting you, which, amazingly enough, breaks their stealth and gives them Revealed.

This will only work if they actually use it by you. And it’s giving them free damage and initiative gain. Hardly a winning strategy, but at least it could be somewhat useful trying to kill one on his last 1000 hitpoints.

D/D ele complaining about thief? Now I’ve seen it all. Enjoy your EZ mode class.

D/D ele has long since fallen out of favor after nerfs and meta changes and cannot compare to the level of cheese of this thief, especially in non-capture scenarios. Yes I can survive them if they don’t get a lucky backstab and potentially outrun them but if they are skilled they will never die. And I’m glad you think pressing 5 and 2 is less EZ-mode than ele. Anyways thanks for the strawman that you went to so much trouble to erect (looking at my post history), you’ve added so much value to this discussion (and as it is an irrelevant strawman, I will comment no more on it)

Yet another QQ thief thread… its getting old.

I main a theif, but im still developing my play style i cant say im good at it i just like playing it coz its class that i think is fun to play.

maybe Anet should just have 5 races with 8 classes at lvl 80 dress naked with a stick as a weapon, where every class attacks the same for the same damage i bet people will still complain then.

Jabberwock.9014:

D/D ele has long since fallen out of favor after nerfs and meta changes and cannot compare to the level of cheese of this thief, especially in non-capture scenarios. Yes I can survive them if they don’t get a lucky backstab and potentially outrun them but if they are skilled they will never die. And I’m glad you think pressing 5 and 2 is less EZ-mode than ele. Anyways thanks for the strawman that you went to so much trouble to erect (looking at my post history), you’ve added so much value to this discussion (and as it is an irrelevant strawman, I will comment no more on it)

I don’t play EZ mode perma-stealth thief either…. both of you are EZ mode.

I never said you did, and if you don’t I have nothing against you. You have given no evidence how D/D ele is easy mode other than whining from half a year ago that has since been silenced with nerfs to rtl, mist form, lightning flash, cleansing fire and so on. But here I go again supporting your strawman… I need to get better at that. No more this time I promise.

Jscull.2514:

EZ mode class- allows bad players to feel like they can compete.

Put the same player on a warrior/guardian, and see how good they are in open field without stealth. TERRIBLE.

So true!

Dual.8953:

Jscull.2514:

EZ mode class- allows bad players to feel like they can compete.

Put the same player on a warrior/guardian, and see how good they are in open field without stealth. TERRIBLE.

Nice troll comparing Thief to Guardian (aka the most carried class in the game) give a Guardian a hammer and a staff and they will not die. I’m almost always the last man standing on my guard, because all I have to do when my low is hit staff 4 and I’m good as new. How’s that? I don’t even need stealth to reset the fight.

Mhmm if he was a troll then why didn’t you respond to his warrior comment? Oh wait..he’s right..

Jscull.2514:

EZ mode class- allows bad players to feel like they can compete.

Put the same player on a warrior/guardian, and see how good they are in open field without stealth. TERRIBLE.

Same can be said of mesmers. Why bother learning to play when you have so many get out of jail cards.

D/P is pvp with training wheels, its what you play when you cant land C&D in combat, and makes the rest of the thieves look bad.

Niim.9260:

D/P is pvp with training wheels, its what you play when you cant land C&D in combat, and makes the rest of the thieves look bad.

I have news for you..if you are playing the most broken stealth class in history, you don’t need someone to make you look bad.

XII.9401:

Dual.8953:

Jscull.2514:

EZ mode class- allows bad players to feel like they can compete.

Put the same player on a warrior/guardian, and see how good they are in open field without stealth. TERRIBLE.

Nice troll comparing Thief to Guardian (aka the most carried class in the game) give a Guardian a hammer and a staff and they will not die. I’m almost always the last man standing on my guard, because all I have to do when my low is hit staff 4 and I’m good as new. How’s that? I don’t even need stealth to reset the fight.

Mhmm if he was a troll then why didn’t you respond to his warrior comment? Oh wait..he’s right..

Oh really now? Wanna open that can of worms do ya? Okay I’ll bite.
Even though Warriors are bottom in TPvP, they’ve overall still got it better than theives, trumping even the Guardian in PvE, and being overall more useful in WvW. Name one role besides Solo roaming in WvW where thieves are actually wanted?
GW2 is a game for teamplay, and thief is always near the bottom in any team situation.
In fact, if you took solo roaming from thieves, they would be the bar none worst class in the game.
In any case, he invalidated his point by stating the number one most requested class across all modes isn’t easy mode. The class I’ve actually heard brag that they can afk fights. The class that’s welcome in almost every party in every mode. A class that I’ve played and never felt challenged in the slightest on. I mean seriously, of Guardians found a good roaming build, that’d be it, there’d be absolutely no reason to role any class other then a Guardian.

^Such utter BS. Thieves are quite capable in a group. I won’t go in to discussing all the things a thief can offer to a group, as it’s been regurgitated ad nauseum every time this thread or something similar pops up. Thieves always trying to defend their absolute brokenness by spreading the myth that they’re useless in groups. Stop being fracking selfish then and speccing only for trolling permastealth roaming builds and spec to actually support.

Jabberwock.9014:

I never said you did, and if you don’t I have nothing against you. You have given no evidence how D/D ele is easy mode other than whining from half a year ago that has since been silenced with nerfs to rtl, mist form, lightning flash, cleansing fire and so on. But here I go again supporting your strawman… I need to get better at that. No more this time I promise.

Come in sPvP with your Thief I’ll show you how Elementalist is strong.

thief is the only exception from the weapon skills cooldown mechanics = broken

D/P does seem to go against Arena Net’s general thief design by offering permanent stealth entirely on the thiefs own accord.

Do I consider it OP? Not neccesarily. Would the game be a lot more fun without it? Yes.

Stealth no longer grants invisibility – all thief problems solved in WvW.

How many times must the same kitten be explained to you guys?

Invisibility =/= Invincibility.

It is like you guys have no desire to better yourselves. There are people who’ve understand the patterns or have experienced these patterns first hand. After their little lessons, they get on our forums and tell us how much of a joke we are to fight.

I mean… I don’t use stealth at all and I have ABSOLUTELY ZERO problems vs my own class, stealth-spamming or not. I only got killed by 1 other thief and that was because I forgot to set my traits. Regardless, I still downed him during our duel. I am not the only one.

A kittenload of people from other professions will tell you they have no problem with thieves because they learned how the class works. They’ve sought advice from thieves or have rolled a thief themselves in order to understand thief tactics. Those people see thieves as a major joke.

Bethryn.4087:

When you see Black Powder go down, maybe you should try standing inside it so that they can’t HS without hitting you, which, amazingly enough, breaks their stealth and gives them Revealed.

Only works if the thief is already stealthed, if he is visible and you stand inside BP he will get away, his HS will hit you and give you damage and stealth to him.

Take a look at the thousands of thief videos exploiting the perma stealth and soloing 5 or more players.

EVEN if they are bad, no other class can do that, and its all due to the fact that Stealth = untargetability+detarget utility=takes no damage+replan and setup fight at leisure

Zacchary.6183:

How many times must the same kitten be explained to you guys?

Invisibility =/= Invincibility.

I almost never get hit in stealth. All you have to do is move erratically, and stealth is almost the same as invincibility (except for channeled abilities). Most Thieves are terrible and keep walking in the same direction so of course they don’t realize the damage-avoiding potential.

Obviously this doesn’t apply if you can’t move and the enemy knows where you are, but that can be largely avoided by using stun breaks/infiltrator’s arrow/withdraw/roll for initiative.etc

Edit: You will probably get some damage in the first ~1 second after entering stealth, because of abilities that were flying/halfway through being cast. After that, it is very easy to avoid taking further damage.

You can also dodge in stealth, just in case (or to stop a Kill Shot)

^this. I hate thieves always defending stealth saying its not invincibility. News flash: you are able to see us and thus go in whatever direction we are not going, so it might as well be. There is no one magic “pattern” that all of us are too dumb to recognize, as many a conceited thief seems to think. If you have a pattern that you always follow than you are probably an npc. Ironically actual invincibility (aka blocks, invulnerability and so on) are much less powerful than stealth since your opponent can still keep you pinned and you can’t setup a sneak attack (and after healing all your hp no less).

Evilek.5690:

Come in sPvP with your Thief I’ll show you how Elementalist is strong.

Not talking about sPvP genius. Hence WvW forums. And in sPvP necro dominates both since last patch anyways.

Jabberwock.9014:

Evilek.5690:

Come in sPvP with your Thief I’ll show you how Elementalist is strong.

Not talking about sPvP genius. Hence WvW forums. And in sPvP necro dominates both since last patch anyways.

sPvP=WvWvW in this weapon set. Same DMG,mobility, just everything. MR Oblivious

Evilek.5690:

Jabberwock.9014:

Evilek.5690:

Come in sPvP with your Thief I’ll show you how Elementalist is strong.

Not talking about sPvP genius. Hence WvW forums. And in sPvP necro dominates both since last patch anyways.

sPvP=WvWvW in this weapon set. Same DMG,mobility, just everything. MR Oblivious

It’s obviously not the same, stop saying that it is. In WvW, I stacked >100% crit damage on my Thief, which (because of hidden killer) allows for a lot more damage potential.

Jscull.2514:

EZ mode class- allows bad players to feel like they can compete.

Put the same player on a warrior/guardian, and see how good they are in open field without stealth. TERRIBLE.

Actually we tend to be pretty good at killing thieves.

XII.9401:

Gotta congratulate the Anet team on the stellar design of the class. They will be remembered in the MMO community for years to come as the guys who came up with the most broken stealth class in history.

Oh by the way..it was not what they intended initially. Takes a special dev to kitten up that much.

Sad but true. Anet has introduced some original and unique ideas for these types of games. Their stealth concept is a dismal failure. The poster is correct. When new games get released the common refrain will be …I hope stealth isn’t as kittened up as it was on gw2.

The most annoying part of invisibility is losing target. Autotarget option sets your target to something else every time opponent stealths. In WvW context there are always plenty of other targets to pull into the fight.

Basically you fight your UI to reacquire the correct target as soon as possible when thief reappears. I do not like fighting my user interface.

All these threads do is tell me who has the perfect terrible:tear ratio.

It is true.
We are more than 100 thieves in the guild and each time anybody see any of us they run away screaming.
RG left the game due to us, we thieves are invincible.
Second law came to Baruch because they wanted to stay with unbeaten people.
Children cry when they see us appear.
Almost everything is true but….
You can not have all the initiative refreshing skills at the same time.

Best,

Haltair

Luckily for us thieves we can take all ini regen traits in all trees all at the same time…oh wait.

Also, did I read that you are a D/D ele? You are complaining that a thief can 1vX cause invisible on a class that can 1vX because unkillable. “No other class can do that” Ok pumpkin.

Op: No point in asking for any sort of nerf to thief or d/d ele mechanics based on wvw as they don’t take a blind bit of notice when making ‘balances’.

It is fun to run into a 5 man roaming team of 3 thiefs, a d/d ele and a mesmer just for the laughs watching them appear and disappear whilst taking an age to down my necro (which is terribly OP in wvw, please nerf me).

Whilst I’m here, big grats to the thief that tried 1v1 me last night, was a great fight until your friends joined in, hopefully meet again soon!

This is precisely why I made Quip to run as my off-hand weapon. Every time I Black Powder it makes the sound effect

Extra fun when doing BP for a stomp.

Haters gonna hate.

Bethryn.4087:

When you see Black Powder go down, maybe you should try standing inside it so that they can’t HS without hitting you, which, amazingly enough, breaks their stealth and gives them Revealed.

thats a stupid solution that never works and ends up getting you spammed with blinds, so not only do you not reveal the thief you can’t even hit the thief.
heartseeker is a 450 leap skill and with the trait to move 50% faster while in stealth its 450+ not even counting swiftness.
a leap skill will never, EVER hit mid leap and the entire blind field doesn’t cover 450, that may work if you managed to get a cripple or chill in but then you have a whole 3 seconds to burst a trolly build down before they perma stealth again.

I dunno after playing against for real perma stealth assassins in Aion the sort of perma stealth thief in GW2 doesn’t seem like such a big deal to me.

IMO Shadow shot is a bigger deal than the black powder/heartseeker combo since it’s an unblockable semi spammable gap closer with a blind.

EDIT: I do think that there should be some way of breaking stealth though.

Leap finishers to smoke fields change to grant aegis or protection.

Atherakhia.4086:

Leap finishers to smoke fields change to grant aegis or protection.

Incredible nerf. Thief is already weakest class in WvW doesn’t need anymore nerfs kthx.

You really only have one choice and that is to accept that thieves are thieves. A class like this should have never even made it into the game (both for its’ short comings and OP features), but it is too late now. Complaining for a year has amounted to a hill of nerfs most pointless or making under utilized skills UP (see pistol whip, dancing daggers, cluster bomb, PD thief condition variety, underwater combat, caltrops and AOE). Fact is as of this moment thief stealth is out of hand and there are no plans to change this.

However, if you roam with a zerg this issue means little to nothing to you. A thief in zerg is a class that does very little DPS at range and is semi useless to zerg. You may say on demand blast finishers what have you but fact is in a zerg a hammer warrior, guardian, even a nades engineer is infinitely more useful. Lets not forget about keep defense and taking keeps. A good mesmer, necro, staff ele, and those mentioned above will be more useful. A thief may chose to debate. That thief will be wrong. This is nigh absolute (there are cases where a thief stealthing a mesmer into deeper parts of a keep cna help a portal “bomb”).

What we are talking about here is solo and small group roaming. Where a class with superior mobility and gap closing skills also has stealth which in many 0 30 30 10 0 builds give you access to a stupid amount of both burst DPS and healing. While not giving up your get out of jail free cards.

To any thieves who feel they can get fancy quips off I have to ask do you realize the class you play? Much like DD ele (once upon a time), mesmer, and guardian you play a class that duels well. Among all the classes in WvW not only do you duel well but you roam well. No matter how skilled you think you are or leet you do play a class that relies on a crutch to get wins. There is no skill to it. You may dig at other players for dying to thieves but truth is in many cases there is no other choice. It is not a skill issue its a mechanics gakitten ue. No one is going to fix it. Stealth has been deemed nigh untouchable by the devs. While you revel in the fact and pick off classes that can not deal with you remember. As one of the skilled players of this game you jumped on the bandwagon class and actually tried to brag and put other players down. there is no counter for a “good” thief. They will always pull off a win or push a draw.

I said my piece.

TheGuy.3568:

You really only have one choice and that is to accept that thieves are thieves. A class like this should have never even made it into the game (both for its’ short comings and OP features), but it is too late now. Complaining for a year has amounted to a hill of nerfs most pointless or making under utilized skills UP (see pistol whip, dancing daggers, cluster bomb, PD thief condition variety, underwater combat, caltrops and AOE). Fact is as of this moment thief stealth is out of hand and there are no plans to change this.

However, if you roam with a zerg this issue means little to nothing to you. A thief in zerg is a class that does very little DPS at range and is semi useless to zerg. You may say on demand blast finishers what have you but fact is in a zerg a hammer warrior, guardian, even a nades engineer is infinitely more useful. Lets not forget about keep defense and taking keeps. A good mesmer, necro, staff ele, and those mentioned above will be more useful. A thief may chose to debate. That thief will be wrong. This is nigh absolute (there are cases where a thief stealthing a mesmer into deeper parts of a keep cna help a portal “bomb”).

What we are talking about here is solo and small group roaming. Where a class with superior mobility and gap closing skills also has stealth which in many 0 30 30 10 0 builds give you access to a stupid amount of both burst DPS and healing. While not giving up your get out of jail free cards.

To any thieves who feel they can get fancy quips off I have to ask do you realize the class you play? Much like DD ele (once upon a time), mesmer, and guardian you play a class that duels well. Among all the classes in WvW not only do you duel well but you roam well. No matter how skilled you think you are or leet you do play a class that relies on a crutch to get wins. There is no skill to it. You may dig at other players for dying to thieves but truth is in many cases there is no other choice. It is not a skill issue its a mechanics gakitten ue. No one is going to fix it. Stealth has been deemed nigh untouchable by the devs. While you revel in the fact and pick off classes that can not deal with you remember. As one of the skilled players of this game you jumped on the bandwagon class and actually tried to brag and put other players down. there is no counter for a “good” thief. They will always pull off a win or push a draw.

I said my piece.

So what I gather is that when a thief wins a tough duel it’s because we are bandwagoning, skill-less, scrubs and when other classes do it they are skilled dueling gods.

Obviously stealth is the only mechanic in game that makes targets hard to kill, and only thieves have said mechanic. Please tell me about how super hard it is to play a guardian, warrior, or necro.

So what I gather is that when a thief wins a tough duel it’s because we are bandwagoning, skill-less, scrubs and when other classes do it they are skilled dueling gods.

Expressing the truth in a sarcastic manner doesn’t make it any less real.