Guild Wars 2

Because it’s dumb right now.
Most obnoxious: Thief (you could play with a blindfold on)
2nd: Warrior (doesn’t take skill)
3rd: Trap ranger (takes skill)
Debatable: Mesmer (due to stealth, double blink, and alacrity). PU condi needs nerf for other reasons than movement. It’s probably the most successful solo roamer, but it takes somewhat skill to be unkillable.

TL;DR: Nerf thief.

katniss.6735:

TL;DR: Nerf thief.

Yeah – who would’ve expected anything else than that?!

PU condi after like 3 years you wvw players still cant deal with this ?for real
PU condi mes is weak to condi since it has to run chaos ,illusion and chrono line .if a mes run inspiration line he will loss the damage heavily. its either you use condi to kill them or they dont have enough damage to kill you .its a cheap build for sure but your reason doesnt make up for the nerf you demand (or in simple words its a L2P issue ).

and how are you supposed to nerf pu mes without hurting power shatter more ?

about thief , trapper build may take some nerf or adjust . its not op but not healthy for gameplay .other than that thief is fine .

and trap ranger takes skill ?purposely building a spec without much condi clean or stunbreak doesnt mean it take more skills .its just gimmick .and why you have to nerf that when many other classes can do much more .

and why on earth you want to nerf some builds which are only there to escape ?
its not like the builds you mentioned can be offensive and defensive at same time (if u wanna say pu mes does that , clone traits are gone long time ago).

If anything , anet should look at rev in all game modes . it grossly op and created unhealthy meta in all game mode before they nerf something like trap ranger.

PU condi mes is weak to all kinds of things, including every other meta mesmer build. On a condi build, chaos just seems like a wasted trait line.

yeah perm stealth trapper thief does need a nerf, maybe make it so that when the traps are activated they get pulled out of stealth otherwise fight trapper thief with traps

Maybe if some (most?) other classes wouldn’t have 101 passive defenses which make them almost untouchable, AND at the same time damage close or on par to thieves’, the thieves wouldn’t actually run away?

Mertyns.4921:

Maybe if some (most?) other classes wouldn’t have 101 passive defenses which make them almost untouchable, AND at the same time damage close or on par to thieves’, the thieves wouldn’t actually run away?

A warrior do have that and a warrior can still wear nike shoes.

Jeknar.6184:

Mertyns.4921:

Maybe if some (most?) other classes wouldn’t have 101 passive defenses which make them almost untouchable, AND at the same time damage close or on par to thieves’, the thieves wouldn’t actually run away?

A warrior do have that and a warrior can still wear nike shoes.

Yeah and my neighbour has a bigger house.

If you remove warrior nike shoes than whats left of warrior? a inferior guardian.
Remove Thief mobility than whats left?
If you remove mesmer teleport than whats left?

Sorry but there is balance and there is whining because you dont have it.

Ps, here is a little tip: immob warrior while they use rush (not before) this will kitten them up. and if they used berserker stance then big deal let him run.

Just consider this as kitten mode. This is where my longbow/staff buid comes in handy, to pewpew em from a long distance and close the gap with #3 off staff.

Offair.2563:

Just consider this as kitten mode. This is where my longbow/staff buid comes in handy, to pewpew em from a long distance and close the gap with #3 off staff.

You mean Staff 3 to extend the gap to longbow pewpew. :P

sephiroth.4217:

Leaderboard Ranks: WvW: 971.

What kinda strange magic is this?

sephiroth.4217:

Offair.2563:

Just consider this as kitten mode. This is where my longbow/staff buid comes in handy, to pewpew em from a long distance and close the gap with #3 off staff.

You mean Staff 3 to extend the gap to longbow pewpew. :P

I use it for that too. But when people start to run i pewpew em, when they run so far i get out of combat i switch to staff, leap with 3 and continue to pewpew em.

katniss.6735:

Because it’s dumb right now.
Most obnoxious: Thief (you could play with a blindfold on)

Thankfully most do play like they are blindfolded.

katniss.6735:

Because it’s dumb right now.
Most obnoxious: Thief (you could play with a blindfold on)
2nd: Warrior (doesn’t take skill)
3rd: Trap ranger (takes skill)
Debatable: Mesmer (due to stealth, double blink, and alacrity). PU condi needs nerf for other reasons than movement. It’s probably the most successful solo roamer, but it takes somewhat skill to be unkillable.

TL;DR: Nerf thief.

No, what you do is improve movement and positioning skills of other professions.

katniss.6735:

Because it’s dumb right now.
Most obnoxious: Thief (you could play with a blindfold on)
2nd: Warrior (doesn’t take skill)
3rd: Trap ranger (takes skill)
Debatable: Mesmer (due to stealth, double blink, and alacrity). PU condi needs nerf for other reasons than movement. It’s probably the most successful solo roamer, but it takes somewhat skill to be unkillable.

TL;DR: Nerf thief.

This, I only assume is coming from someone playing another class and can’t 1v1

I don’t have a 80 mesmer but I can tell you that war/theif is not always a face roll even with good builds / well timed rotation / flexibility.

Sure a warrior has a lot of movement across GS and Warhorn, but you now have no CC, you want to lock up runners, break lord bars, get interrupt sigils in gvg/zerg then you need to run hammer, which puts you with only a long long cool down elite for swiftness and basically rush.

I’ve had many a group that if you are caught a second behind on the run between points, you don’t get the swiftness stack and are jamming rush in hopes to catch up, sometimes causing a miss on a dps heavy group camp doylak tagging.

Warriors net a lot of hp but that doesn’t make us faceroll easy. I agree that in compared to some other skill heavy classes like attunements and kits, we have a simpler list of skills, that that does mean that even with 3.5k armor and 32k hp we don’t get immolibilized and bomb/ power single targeted down. Alternativelythose stats are for pure bunker and it would be boring to not load pwr/perc/fero and see those numbers like most of you light/mediums.

Thief is a class going full head in on condi or power and though movement causing skills / stealth stacks help the class greatly, there is skill with character placement and choosing when and how to bail or re-engage. Additionally a thief has 0 option other then to glass cannon, so yeah. 1v1 can look demeaning to the opponent, that’s thief specialty and if the enemy build counters, it’s 1v2 or the backline your picking off turns the zerg on you, then you melt like butter in the pan.

Yall want everyone to be equal but fail to realize we all have our own strengths in different parts of the mode.

Where was that post of the 10k auto attack ranger? When everyone yells about ranger being horrible?

Play to your characters strengths or roll a different toon. Hell, if your guardian isn’t cutting the mustard, play your thief a few hours then bounce back to guardian.

1 1v2 2 mesmer the other day in a 10min bout, I downed them collectively 6 times but wasn’t able to finish them off until finally was downed myself. So what should I do? Should I come on here yelling about my classes balance vs their classes balance? No, I live on and learn, I replay the fun of the bout and recall where I may of screwed up and what seemed to work and know if I run into that kind of roam again how I might approach it a new.

I agree that there is probably always room for balance, but 90% of this batching here is either a lack of skill of your own class, being pwned on the field or playing in a way that doesn’t max the strength of your class, be it roaming, small group/havoc, class synergy, guild raids, zergs or defense.

Sounds like op is salty for playing D/F Minstrel else and not being able to kill anything, and I find it funny he doesn’t go into depth on any of the classes besides Condi Mesmer, let’s take a look at some of the classes he mentions,

Thief- highest mobility is one of their main if not most important survival mechanic, now if he is talking about the ghost thief it can use some tweaks but by no means is it op unless you don’t run cleanses and spam skills while standing still, thief takes more skill to land their bursts and have to rely on kiting since they don’t have any real Passives mitigation or Invulns like most other classes.

Warrior- I never see warriors runaway, and outside of Nike warrior builds have low runaway potential, most try to stick on you to try and get their 15k arc dividers of or to stun lock you and apply condis they don’t need to run with all of their passive sustain/mitigation, which none of these builds take any skill.

Druids-now this is warranted, the amount of reliable stealth and mobility they have while also having great sustain and kiting pressure is very annoying, it does need to be looked into and the biggest offenders don’t use traps, and if you are having issues against traps run more condi cleanse and stun breaks, I have had no issues against trap rangers while roaming, now bunker Druid is a different story.

The OP is in essence saying, I do not like the fact other classes can run away from me when they find out that all my blocks, invulnerabilities heals and passive mitigation measures are overhwhellming them in combat so i want to force them to remain so i can kill them more easily.

Mobility and the ability of a given class to disengage more readily is one of the advantages those classes have. deal with it.

Yeah these high burst dps and run-away builds are pathetic.

Though a couple years ago when I was roaming on a necro condi build, I had a warrior all confident that he could kill little old me just came in all guns blazing.
Well that warrior got a surprise they werent expecting when I almost killed him and he ran off like the wind!

And that there alone doesnt make ANY kittenING sense at all!!!
How can a heavy geared warrior outrun a light geared necro?!
It’s like a 10 tonne truck outpacing a ferrari!

Or a 10 ton truck vs a light weight hippy car.

katniss.6735:

Because it’s dumb right now.
Most obnoxious: Thief (you could play with a blindfold on)
2nd: Warrior (doesn’t take skill)
3rd: Trap ranger (takes skill)
Debatable: Mesmer (due to stealth, double blink, and alacrity). PU condi needs nerf for other reasons than movement. It’s probably the most successful solo roamer, but it takes somewhat skill to be unkillable.

TL;DR: Nerf thief.

Actually thief should be the only class capable of running away (shiefs should be the only very mobile class has they are).
Even a DH with meditations can be almost has mobile has a nike warrior, those things need to be cutted.

The class that has a bit ot much migh be warrior, high damage, good mobility, good sustain even on full zerker, lots of anti-condition traits and offhand. (ive been in a situation with a lvl 50 upscaled warrior in my party were beatin the crap of lvl 80 in a few seconds).
They need at least to be much less mobile with GS skills, they have to trade off mobility for the damage and sustain they have.

Mesmer, i would say they are ok, some, chronomancer builds migh need a shave/tone down, skills like gravity well…. but that is the aoe issue game has, in terms of mobnility mesmer are fine.

Jeknar.6184:

A warrior do have that and a warrior can still wear nike shoes.

It’s rare that I disagree with two of your posts in one day, but man, the days of nike warriors being a thing is long gone.

I normally run a build that has more hustle than the vast majority of warriors out there, and I’m still middle of the pack in terms of builds with escape/pursue potential. It’s been that way for more than a year.

My ability to escape is based as much on proper positioning and effective use of terrain.

katniss.6735:

Because it’s dumb right now.
Most obnoxious: Thief (you could play with a blindfold on)
2nd: Warrior (doesn’t take skill)
3rd: Trap ranger (takes skill)
Debatable: Mesmer (due to stealth, double blink, and alacrity). PU condi needs nerf for other reasons than movement. It’s probably the most successful solo roamer, but it takes somewhat skill to be unkillable.

TL;DR: Nerf thief.

How could I not +1 this?! Sensible is sensible.

Choppy.4183:

Jeknar.6184:

A warrior do have that and a warrior can still wear nike shoes.

It’s rare that I disagree with two of your posts in one day, but man, the days of nike warriors being a thing is long gone.

I normally run a build that has more hustle than the vast majority of warriors out there, and I’m still middle of the pack in terms of builds with escape/pursue potential. It’s been that way for more than a year.

My ability to escape is based as much on proper positioning and effective use of terrain.

You need that bull’s charge man… GS 3 > 5 > BC and the only thing that will likely catch up with you will be another high mobility toon like thief or druid. That’s the experience on my warrior so far at least. And I run Longbow, so I don’t have another set of running like sword+warhorn.

Jeknar.6184:

You need that bull’s charge man… GS 3 > 5 > BC and the only thing that will likely catch up with you will be another high mobility toon like thief or druid. That’s the experience on my warrior so far at least. And I run Longbow, so I don’t have another set of running like sword+warhorn.

Haha, yeah, that’s the one piece I don’t run. Just not worth it overall imo, but it does add to the hustle. But I do run sword, and I suspect you don’t. Sword brings more hustle than Bull’s Charge.

Choppy.4183:

Haha, yeah, that’s the one piece I don’t run. Just not worth it overall imo, but it does add to the hustle. But I do run sword, and I suspect you don’t. Sword brings more hustle than Bull’s Charge.

Oh I know Bull’s Charge is meh overall, but I love hitting my shoulder on someone’s face and 100b them (and miss because my toon didn’t stopped where it should). Also, I tried to run somenthing different on my Longbow place, but I miss easy activation of cleasing ire and adrenal health with all the condi builds out there.

So the plan is to nuke scouting and remove the escape ability of the most brittle class in the game?

Yeah…. bad idea.

Straegen.2938:

So the plan is to nuke scouting and remove the escape ability of the most brittle class in the game?

Yeah…. bad idea.

Op plays a minstrel d/f Ele what do you expect?

I advise everyone not to take the OP seriously. This is another of many similar complaints from other individuals that demand things without considering any variables.

There are some professions/builds that do have a lot of mobility but honestly, I’ve never had a problem with this or found it to be game breaking. Kiting is a legitimate strategy. Resetting is a strategy as well but I’ll have to agree that it’s an obnoxious one. You just need to learn how to predict when people are going to attempt to run away so you can lock them down before they get the chance.

Also note that when someone resets, in most cases, it’s a better idea to run away as well. If I’m fighting a Thief and they run off to reset, I’m not going to chase them, I’m going to get the hell out of there, too. Why? Because I probably have major skills on cooldown, they may be baiting me to a location more to their advantage, and they could potentially be buying time until they get allied support.

Don’t blindly give chase to people who completely disengage or you’re giving them the advantage of what ever terrain they might consider works best for them. I use this on people all the time by poking them, baiting them out of their comfort zone and turning to fight when they realize they’ve gone too far.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I advise everyone not to take the OP seriously. This is another of many similar complaints from other individuals that demand things without considering any variables.

The irony is strong, you know a core concept of PvP is risk vs reward, the level of disengage of some classes/builds in WvW small scale/roaming makes a mockery of risk vs reward, mobile classes should have in-combat mobility, not “oh I kittened up, but unless I kittened up to the point I am going to get blown up, I can still simply disengage 90% of the time”, just one of the reasons as to why smallscale/roaming in this game has always been a joke.

zinkz.7045:

the level of disengage of come classes/builds in WvW small scale/roaming makes a mockery of risk vs reward, mobile classes should have in-combat mobility

I’ll take that nerfed disengage for buffed incombat mobility! Watch me spear deeper into a zergs backline through the front then ever before!

PUNCHIT!

zinkz.7045:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I advise everyone not to take the OP seriously. This is another of many similar complaints from other individuals that demand things without considering any variables.

The irony is strong, you know a core concept of PvP is risk vs reward, the level of disengage of come classes/builds in WvW small scale/roaming makes a mockery of risk vs reward, mobile classes should have in-combat mobility, not “oh I kittened up, but unless I kittened up to the point I am going to get blown up, I can still simply disengage 90% of the time”, just one of the reasons as to why smallscale/roaming in this game has always been a joke.

Oh the irony, the core concept of risk vs reward, the level of passive invulns/heals/cc on some classes is so high in WvW and small scale roaming that it makes a mockery of risk/reward and they can’t be downed unless they are afk.

zinkz.7045:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I advise everyone not to take the OP seriously. This is another of many similar complaints from other individuals that demand things without considering any variables.

The irony is strong, you know a core concept of PvP is risk vs reward, the level of disengage of come classes/builds in WvW small scale/roaming makes a mockery of risk vs reward, mobile classes should have in-combat mobility, not “oh I kittened up, but unless I kittened up to the point I am going to get blown up, I can still simply disengage 90% of the time”, just one of the reasons as to why smallscale/roaming in this game has always been a joke.

Risk versus reward is testing your limits and improving on what gives you difficulty. Chasing someone when they have more mobility is stupidity. You can’t improve what you don’t have.

As I’d said in the comment prior, I agree that resetting is a frustrating thing to be faced with. It’s like chasing a car on your bike. You’re not going to catch up unless they want you to and at that point you’ve probably chased too far.

I still don’t think mobility needs to be nerfed. People just need to get smarter instead of expecting everyone to fight to the death. Some people prefer to run, it’s gonna happen no matter what changes might come. The sooner everyone accepts that the sooner they can develop strategies to counter it.

As much as I hate a thief, I think the dodge rolls should be nerf over stealth. You have to keep in mind that a thief is glass cannon and can die pretty easily but with, what seems like unlimited, all the dodge rolls. It can survive a kitten ton.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Oh the irony, the core concept of risk vs reward, the level of passive invulns/heals/cc on some classes is so high in WvW and small scale roaming that it makes a mockery of risk/reward and they can’t be downed unless they are afk.

I agree there are other issues in regard to risk vs reward, as for irony, you apparently don’t know what is by the way you’ve misused the word.

Zero.4935:

As much as I hate a thief, I think the dodge rolls should be nerf over stealth. You have to keep in mind that a thief is glass cannon and can die pretty easily but with, what seems like unlimited, all the dodge rolls. It can survive a kitten ton.

Let’s say we don’t have that 3rd dodge, or we have used that for what ever reason before a punch up, you do realize that we are both now on the same amounts of dodging, right? In fact classes with close to perma endurance probably has more dodges then A thief over a few mins. It’s only things like signet of agilty and channeled vigor that allows all of this dodge and both can’t be used randomly.

You can actually catch most of them if u spec for it and are patient for them to waste cds to get away from ur allies,
they spec for trolling and u spec for catching, simple as that

I have D/F minstrel that doesn’t really die unless isolated vs some cheese cc build.
I also play maurader staff.

Now that that’s cleared up. Thieves are still dumb with the constant uncatchable movement they get. The class is designed as a troll right now in HoT. The SM troll ones that port through every floor is like a minstrel ele.

Ele is garbage overall. lmao – I’m not salty. WvW is also garbage. I stopped playing spvp after season 2 or whatever one it was when they dumped cleric amulet. I pretty much just farm achievement points when there are no guildies on to do anything worthwhile.

The point of the thread was about there being all these sperg moves that people have where they just outrun every time they get pressured. Engie can do it, too. Ele was the best at it, now the worst, so I am allowed to point fingers at the other classes. It’s just I’m going to get slammed by all the people playing them right now. Idc.

This is like all those threads complained about stealth 4 years ago, especially before they fixed culling and nerfed mug, in wvw nonetheless. Instead of stealth, it’s mobility, does anyone complain about passives in this game, as much, as about thieves mobility?

Thieves got nerfed constantly over the years, you still have threads like these, when all they are good for is scouting, ganking or blast finishing, there are far superior professions and elite specs these days.

Vavume.8065:

sephiroth.4217:

Leaderboard Ranks: WvW: 971.

What kinda strange magic is this?

GW2Effeciency stats… not sure how accurate they are but its cool to see where you place for “most x” or what ever….

That number there is where I am for highest ranked WxP character, no EotM either. I’m in the top 100 for Yak escorts though

A few thousand topics of this sort have already been made. Please post in the appropriate thread. Kthx.

katniss.6735:

Because it’s dumb right now.
Most obnoxious: Thief (you could play with a blindfold on)
2nd: Warrior (doesn’t take skill)
3rd: Trap ranger (takes skill)
Debatable: Mesmer (due to stealth, double blink, and alacrity). PU condi needs nerf for other reasons than movement. It’s probably the most successful solo roamer, but it takes somewhat skill to be unkillable.

TL;DR: Nerf thief.

how about nerf guardian ele and necro and rev

so ull see zergs of thief spamming 1 1 1 1 1 with back line of rangers and mesmers spamming wells and some random warrior is not welcome in the squad cus he is too slow to keep up.

welcome to thiefs world..
not welcome anywhere not being able to join the zergs cus u get rekt by all conditions/1 1 11 11 staff guardians or even better the lag is so real u cant even play thief cus thief sadly doesnt require only 1 1 1 11 1 and this lag doesnt let u do anything beside 1 1 1 1.

reddie.5861:

katniss.6735:

Because it’s dumb right now.
Most obnoxious: Thief (you could play with a blindfold on)
2nd: Warrior (doesn’t take skill)
3rd: Trap ranger (takes skill)
Debatable: Mesmer (due to stealth, double blink, and alacrity). PU condi needs nerf for other reasons than movement. It’s probably the most successful solo roamer, but it takes somewhat skill to be unkillable.

TL;DR: Nerf thief.

how about nerf guardian ele and necro and rev

so ull see zergs of thief spamming 1 1 1 1 1 with back line of rangers and mesmers spamming wells and some random warrior is not welcome in the squad cus he is too slow to keep up.

welcome to thiefs world..
not welcome anywhere not being able to join the zergs cus u get rekt by all conditions/1 1 11 11 staff guardians or even better the lag is so real u cant even play thief cus thief sadly doesnt require only 1 1 1 11 1 and this lag doesnt let u do anything beside 1 1 1 1.

guards are fine… only the traps need its CD changed, as in start CD after Hit, like SW….
If u cry of guardian blocks ur one of those players that only spams 1,1,1, straightfoward :P, a guardian w/o those blocks would get reckt faster than a thief in a zerg.

And rev needs to sacrifice more damage with the hammer CoR spam.. or be a single hit skill…

sephiroth.4217:

Vavume.8065:

sephiroth.4217:

Leaderboard Ranks: WvW: 971.

What kinda strange magic is this?

GW2Effeciency stats… not sure how accurate they are but its cool to see where you place for “most x” or what ever….

That number there is where I am for highest ranked WxP character, no EotM either. I’m in the top 100 for Yak escorts though

Holy kitten… I’m rank 20 for WvW rank. I’m both proud and depressed.

I like thieves the way they are. They are kittening annoying but it gives me great satisfaction when I manage to down a fleeing thief with well placed marks.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

sephiroth.4217:

Vavume.8065:

sephiroth.4217:

Leaderboard Ranks: WvW: 971.

What kinda strange magic is this?

GW2Effeciency stats… not sure how accurate they are but its cool to see where you place for “most x” or what ever….

That number there is where I am for highest ranked WxP character, no EotM either. I’m in the top 100 for Yak escorts though

Holy kitten… I’m rank 20 for WvW rank. I’m both proud and depressed.

HAHAHAHA that was my reaction when I saw myself on the Yak escorts… Nice on rank 20 too

This game is so imbalanced. Thieves have always been OP. So what if there’s a bunch of threads about it. How about anet actually does something about it? You shouldn’t get to shortbow away endlessly. And cleanse on dodge , etc . It’s dumb. Also, if a thief dies to wells, they are awful at the game.

P.S. dafug does Seph have 27 characters for?^

katniss.6735:

This game is so imbalanced. Thieves have always been OP. So what if there’s a bunch of threads about it. How about anet actually does something about it? You shouldn’t get to shortbow away endlessly. And cleanse on dodge , etc . It’s dumb. Also, if a thief dies to wells, they are awful at the game.

P.S. dafug does Seph have 27 characters for?^

Making a collection… working towards having 1 of every profession to every race. so I should up with 54 toons by the time I’m done but I haven’t made any progress since the Elite spec grind, so I made a tonne of gold making 20 of them naked lol.

I feel it’s a bad game design to make someone unlock the same elite spec repeatably for purchasing more character slots, but some people like to grind in a game I guess. I got stacks of tomes for more but they dont work on Elites yet I don’t think, so till then I’m just waiting.

katniss.6735:

This game is so imbalanced. Thieves have always been OP. So what if there’s a bunch of threads about it. How about anet actually does something about it? You shouldn’t get to shortbow away endlessly. And cleanse on dodge , etc . It’s dumb. Also, if a thief dies to wells, they are awful at the game.

P.S. dafug does Seph have 27 characters for?^

It’s no where near as dumb as the amount of passives and God mode abiltys classes have vs thief though (DH/scrapper). What good is that thief doing if he does shortbow away? He has acplished nothing.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

katniss.6735:

This game is so imbalanced. Thieves have always been OP. So what if there’s a bunch of threads about it. How about anet actually does something about it? You shouldn’t get to shortbow away endlessly. And cleanse on dodge , etc . It’s dumb. Also, if a thief dies to wells, they are awful at the game.

P.S. dafug does Seph have 27 characters for?^

It’s no where near as dumb as the amount of passives and God mode abiltys classes have vs thief though (DH/scrapper). What good is that thief doing if he does shortbow away? He has acplished nothing.

2 classes can counter the class that counters every other class and can disengage at will.

Truly horrible.

I cry with you.

What? Please play a thief more before you talk rubbish. The only thing a thief can do (d/p) is gank people and or troll. It’s can’t really fight for kitten unless they run impact disruption trait and bound for easy mode. Druids have a far better mu vs thief, condi Chrono has a better mu then thief, a good war condi or power is a tough mu for thief, scrapper……not even gonna say anything. In fact the only fight I clearly know I can win regaudless of how bad or good they are is a power reaper or some ele builds and even then its easy to screw up but apart from that any above 1v1 thief has an up hill fight.