Guild Wars 2

As topic tittle say, are there any plans to remove skilless play, aka mesmer/trapper thief, from wvw, or/and completely nerfing condi dmg in wvw ? I dont think any explanation on reasons why skilless play is not welcome in wvw.

There won’t be.
Condition builds are not fun and not strong at all in WvW.
The only thing they excel at is 1v1 and annoy other roamers.
They have poor killing potential. Just leave them alone and let them quit the game themselves feeling bored. If you keep feeding to them, it will only increase their number.

everything is skilless

Exciton.8942:

There won’t be.
Condition builds are not fun and not strong at all in WvW.
The only thing they excel at is 1v1 and annoy other roamers.
They have poor killing potential. Just leave them alone and let them quit the game themselves feeling bored. If you keep feeding to them, it will only increase their number.

Did you ever ran into a bunch of condi spammers? If so you wouldn’t say theyre not strong in wvw. And yeah just leave em alone thats all you want to do when doing wvw….

Yes let’s nerf conditions because a couple builds that happen to be condition are overpowered.

While we’re at it let’s cut power damage in half because I’m tired of Heralds critting me for 15k.

/sarcasm off

Just because a couple builds are over performing does not mean conditions need to be nerfed across the board. Target what’s causing the most problems instead of destroying a play style entirely.

Offair.2563:

Exciton.8942:

There won’t be.
Condition builds are not fun and not strong at all in WvW.
The only thing they excel at is 1v1 and annoy other roamers.
They have poor killing potential. Just leave them alone and let them quit the game themselves feeling bored. If you keep feeding to them, it will only increase their number.

Did you ever ran into a bunch of condi spammers? If so you wouldn’t say theyre not strong in wvw. And yeah just leave em alone thats all you want to do when doing wvw….

Haha, what you got 3v1’d by a bunch of people with condition builds now you think conditions are overpowered?

You realise you’d have died even faster if they were all glassy berserker/marauder builds, right?

I’ve seen plenty of builds that crit upwards of 10k while still managing to be incredibly tanky. Dragonhunter’s, Berserkers, Heralds, Chronomancers, Reapers and Scrappers to name a few. They might not always be using defensive stats in their gear but the sheer amount of access they have to blocks/invulns, condition clears/Resistance and health recovery more than makes up for their lack of Toughness/Vitality. Warriors, Reapers and Scrappers have plenty of health to begin with.

The whole “conditions are OP and need to be nerfed. Condition builds have so much health and armor but still do so much damage” routine is so ridiculous to be complaining about in the current meta. Many times I’ve seen the aforementioned classes tanking outnumbered fights with glassy power builds but no one seems to think that’s a problem. If a condition build does it? NEEDS NERF!

Imo people need to adjust their builds to counter condis. Wonder if its because most ppl run metabattle builds instead of custom builds. Nothing like knowing what 80%+ of ppl in WvW are running as soon as you see them to know that they suck to condis.

ps… I use a dps build as my main in WvW

Meh. It’s not conditions themselves that are the problem, I thought this had been discussed many a time before. It’s certain builds that are cheesy and make condi “look” overpowered or make it frustrating to fight against, particularly Ghost Thief and D/D DB spam thieves, purely due to poorly designed mechanics.

Dire perplex mesmer before the rune nerf was pretty cheesy too, but I’ve personally noticed a decrease in condi mesmers lately anyway. So yeah, those are the two builds that are annoying to fight against, but both of those Thief builds have got next to no mobility so just don’t fight them, it’s not worth the trouble.

I guess maybe as a D/P thief I can’t really complain about condi Necro because they’re not so difficult for me to beat, but I can’t see how they’re a big issue for other classes anyway. :/ Oh and, I mostly run my build with no condi cleanse besides Dash and Shadowstep.

Hmm, if i say trapper thief and condi mesmer , all are fine with that ?

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Offair.2563:

Exciton.8942:

There won’t be.
Condition builds are not fun and not strong at all in WvW.
The only thing they excel at is 1v1 and annoy other roamers.
They have poor killing potential. Just leave them alone and let them quit the game themselves feeling bored. If you keep feeding to them, it will only increase their number.

Did you ever ran into a bunch of condi spammers? If so you wouldn’t say theyre not strong in wvw. And yeah just leave em alone thats all you want to do when doing wvw….

Haha, what you got 3v1’d by a bunch of people with condition builds now you think conditions are overpowered?

You realise you’d have died even faster if they were all glassy berserker/marauder builds, right?

I’ve seen plenty of builds that crit upwards of 10k while still managing to be incredibly tanky. Dragonhunter’s, Berserkers, Heralds, Chronomancers, Reapers and Scrappers to name a few. They might not always be using defensive stats in their gear but the sheer amount of access they have to blocks/invulns, condition clears/Resistance and health recovery more than makes up for their lack of Toughness/Vitality. Warriors, Reapers and Scrappers have plenty of health to begin with.

The whole “conditions are OP and need to be nerfed. Condition builds have so much health and armor but still do so much damage” routine is so ridiculous to be complaining about in the current meta. Many times I’ve seen the aforementioned classes tanking outnumbered fights with glassy power builds but no one seems to think that’s a problem. If a condition build does it? NEEDS NERF!

Just commenting on the “theyre not strong at all in wvw” cause they can be very strong. And i rather fight glassy beserkers over tanky condi spammers anyday.

ryandeniszorro.6735:

Hmm, if i say trapper thief and condi mesmer , all are fine with that ?

Yes, that’s good.

I’m just tired of seeing the same thread pop up every week from someone asking for conditions to be nerfed.

Me being rude and complaining about the people complaining won’t fix anything but I’m only human, it gets on my nerves.

Condi tank Chrono and D/D condi evasion Thief need to be adjusted. All the other condition builds are perfectly fine if you know how to fight them. Even condi tank Chrono isn’t so bad if you know how to fight it but the amount of conditions it can maintain are the problem.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Imo people need to adjust their builds to counter condis. Wonder if its because most ppl run metabattle builds instead of custom builds. Nothing like knowing what 80%+ of ppl in WvW are running as soon as you see them to know that they suck to condis.

This is also totally true. Most people just slap together a meta build or some variant of it and call it a day. Never concerning themselves to add some condition clears or to ask if said build functions adequately in smaller scale.

People need to start experimenting with builds. It’s fun to make something that you can call your own, especially when it’s well rounded enough that it can function in a number of different roles.

Nothing wrong with liking the meta but you can’t blame the people who build to counter the meta.

Also starting to belive condis are not as strong as people make out to be. In fact I’d rarther fight condis then being hit for 8k or so dmg that is normally non ‘repairable’

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Also starting to belive condis are not as strong as people make out to be. In fact I’d rarther fight condis then being hit for 8k or so dmg that is normally non ‘repairable’

Its not. Its never been “strong” on its own. Thats not really the issue with condis.

The problem remain that you can build a complete tank while still pumping out max condi dmg which become very powerfull on classes that doesnt rely on percentage chance application. There is a reason that the engineer has never been considered all that OP in terms of condi builds because its heavily reliant on critrate to truly be effective – meaning you have to sacrifice toughness or vitality. And if you want that… you sacrifice condi dmg or critrate. Those classes that can build with dire however and apply condi per attack such as traps, skills, etc can just go all out.

Combine this with the fact that powerbuilds often need to choose between condi cleanse or damage and it become very imbalanced in situations where the two opposite builds meet . Just like condi builds with passive application are strong, builds that has passive cleanses become so much stronger fighting them while others have to make sacrifices.

It’s not quite as skill-less as you think it is.

Condi builds can sacrifice tank for damage. It’s called Viper stats. Condi damage by itself isn’t that strong—as long proper cleanses are taken of course.

lioka qiao.8734:

It’s not quite as skill-less as you think it is.

It would sound better if you posted that way…

Anyway, I’m so hungry for fight somenthing while running alone that I’m jumping even on full condi broken builds nowadays… If even these are gone, I’ll starve to death.

saerni.2584:

Condi builds can sacrifice tank for damage. It’s called Viper stats. Condi damage by itself isn’t that strong—as long proper cleanses are taken of course.

God, who runs condi cleanses? 4 years in the game and people still complain about condis.

People like big numbers and instant gratification these days. They whine about condi because they can’t click two buttons and blow someone to pieces, they get a few chills and rage “condi is too strong!” and god forbid they have to fight more than 10 seconds.

I’ve run just about every style of build, condi isn’t as powerful as it seems. If anything, power builds can be quite overwhelming to most players with some of the crits you can land in a small time frame.

I think some classes have ruined the condi style and we shall not name them because we all know who they are. I believe if anet adjusted certain classes the condi builds wouldn’t get so much hate.

Then again, what the hell do I know. I’ve turned into a near full time pver because wvw is in such a pathetic state.

Offair.2563:

Exciton.8942:

There won’t be.
Condition builds are not fun and not strong at all in WvW.
The only thing they excel at is 1v1 and annoy other roamers.
They have poor killing potential. Just leave them alone and let them quit the game themselves feeling bored. If you keep feeding to them, it will only increase their number.

Did you ever ran into a bunch of condi spammers? If so you wouldn’t say theyre not strong in wvw. And yeah just leave em alone thats all you want to do when doing wvw….

As a bursty power spec, I don’t think they are that bad.
All I do is to try to catch them off guard. If I fail my burst, then I just leave them alone.
There is literally nothing they can do to kill me in a short amount of time.

If you see a bunch of them, why do you even fight them if you are alone.

Let’s nerf condi and go back to The Zerker meta when thief and mesmers were roaming two shoting people.

Everyone says they want balance in PvP environments yet so many people do not try to run balanced builds.

Make a balanced build and learn to play it. Alot of these skill less condi garbage players fold to good play because both their build and their bad enemies do not require them to learn how to play good. That’s your opening to win.

the same we have armor to decrease power damage we need a stat to decrease condi damage.
It’s silly some player can drop 2k burning 5k confusion on you for 10 secs just for looking at you and you can’t equip to counter that.

Vitality was intended to be the stat to reduce condition damage effectiveness. Additionally there is condition clear (as an up to 100% reduce of condition damage on you), then there is the boon “resistance” that negates all condis. Furthermore there are foods that reduce condition duration and countless skills and traits against conditions/condition effectiveness etc.
They actually make a lot of effort to balance conditions to power making it a viable option for wvw as well. Of course there are 1:1-situations, where conditions are very effective but in most cases it seems balanced well enough imho. Granted, condi thief and condi mesmer are classes I find very hard to counter, but I am not good in 1:1 anyway.

The amount of damage-mitigation effects in the game right now disproportionately favor tankier builds and condition specs, however. A lot of strong condition classes at the moment (mes/thief/necro) that don’t need to crit run tons of boon hate (since those are already in the meta, anyways), and every condition build applies conditions way faster than cleanses can be applied for the most part. The lone exceptions being perhaps bunker druid and SA/DrD thief.

Conditions are harder to negate existing state of the game with so many blocks as well, since condition application abilities almost always do more raw damage per skill, even without factoring targets with high toughness, than their power counterparts. A block too late without a cleanse means little versus missing the block on one power-based attack.

Since 50%+ damage reduction isn’t all that uncommon in WvW, even if power builds can still out-damage their condition counterparts, the innate durability of condition builds heavily favors condi specs in terms of being more consistent in most cases and inherently easier to play based on raw durability and the nature of their kits (condition specs typically have more passives than power ones).

There are far too many people that are biased against Condition builds that do not play them on a regular basis. All they do is a form of “confirmation bias” in that they might try one once in a while, win a few matches and then run to the boards claiming it proves Condition builds OP.

As a matter of course I can not take anyone who rails against Condition builds seriously because far too many are tied to power builds and just do not like the fact that a battle that they used to win with one or two big spikes of damage and is done in seconds, can carry on for minutes and longer with them dying due to constant pressure from conditions.

Point one. If people design condition builds others SHOULD die to them . There should never be enough in the way of mitigation and cleanses that condition builds can not kill you just as the case with power builds.

I play all builds on the other hand and will go weeks at a time on Condition and than switch for weeks at a time to power. I have a preference for power but no BIAS for power.

I have a p/d condition thief that uses traps. This is not a ghost thief. he does way more damage coming out of stealth for sneak attacks and SS. Stealth is how he launches those sneak attacks, cleanses his own conditions and avoids damage just as a warrior does with blocks or cleansing ire or weapon swaps .

He can be very deadly but is completely neutralized by a number of builds specifically those with high cleanses or resistance.

It very rare any fights I do win with this build is over in seconds. This certainly can happen against bad players but generally the battle can take some time relative to a power build.

FACT he has been caught by a warrior with a headbutt for 10K damage this even in his high toughness armor. It next to impossible for said condition build to get 10k damage in that short a period of time.

Fact. He has few stun breaks so gets eaten alive if caught by such and will fall in seconds to the followup attacks.

Fact after having no luck against said warrior on my build due to his high resistance uptime and cleanses, I brought in my power build thief and dipsosed of said warrior in seconds.

There was no more “skill” involved in the latter build than the former. The fact that my Unload can do 16k damage, or bound for 6k or a head shot for 4 k is NOT because I have more skill or use more skill.

That warrior was not “more skilled” when he was using his build against my Condition build and suddenly “less skilled” when he faced my own power build.

A great chunk of what many want to call skill here is just a different mechanic. Pressing headbutt number 10 for a stun and ten k damage is no more skilled then pressing number 7 and dropping a trap. for 3 stacks of bleed and 1 poison with an immob.

I really don’t think condi is inherently op. I believe certain builds and mechanics need a look. If it were up to me, though, I would rework all of it.

At the very least, fix condi vs large scale, fix condi bunker gank builds, fix invulns vs condi, protection affect condi dmg.

Reh.5986:

protection affect condi dmg.

Don’t buff protection. It is already a very powerful boon and buffing it would just buff protection heavy builds, that definitely don’t need to be any stronger. If you want a boon that works vs condis like protection, nerf resistance to only give 33% condi dmg reduction instead of 100% and then increase access to this boon.
Or just nerf protection access across the board which would be an indirect buff to power builds.

DeceiverX.8361:

The amount of damage-mitigation effects in the game right now disproportionately favor tankier builds and condition specs, however. A lot of strong condition classes at the moment (mes/thief/necro) that don’t need to crit run tons of boon hate (since those are already in the meta, anyways), and every condition build applies conditions way faster than cleanses can be applied for the most part. The lone exceptions being perhaps bunker druid and SA/DrD thief.

Condi mes usually doesn’t run any boon hate, condi thief only has Bountiful Theft (often on higher cd than in power builds). Condi necro has decent boon hate, but relies on allies to be really strong.
And yes, the current meta favours tanky builds, but this doesn’t mean conditions are automatically favoured (even though condi builds are typically tankier – statwise). You named only 3 strong condi classes, what about the other 6? Maybe there are more things that play a role other than tanky (dire) stats.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Reh.5986:

protection affect condi dmg.

Don’t buff protection. It is already a very powerful boon and buffing it would just buff protection heavy builds, that definitely don’t need to be any stronger. If you want a boon that works vs condis like protection, nerf resistance to only give 33% condi dmg reduction instead of 100% and then increase access to this boon.
Or just nerf protection access across the board which would be an indirect buff to power builds.

DeceiverX.8361:

The amount of damage-mitigation effects in the game right now disproportionately favor tankier builds and condition specs, however. A lot of strong condition classes at the moment (mes/thief/necro) that don’t need to crit run tons of boon hate (since those are already in the meta, anyways), and every condition build applies conditions way faster than cleanses can be applied for the most part. The lone exceptions being perhaps bunker druid and SA/DrD thief.

Condi mes usually doesn’t run any boon hate, condi thief only has Bountiful Theft (often on higher cd than in power builds). Condi necro has decent boon hate, but relies on allies to be really strong.
And yes, the current meta favours tanky builds, but this doesn’t mean conditions are automatically favoured (even though condi builds are typically tankier – statwise). You named only 3 strong condi classes, what about the other 6? Maybe there are more things that play a role other than tanky (dire) stats.

As a correction about the mesmer, PU condi usually runs AT or NF as its primary cleanses, and both rip boons nicely which is why they’re run. Berserker, DH, and revenant also have excellent condition builds currently.

It’s not so much that I think conditions are OP but that the mechanics surrounding why they’re so successful make them stronger than they should be. There’s a disproportionate amount of hate for power at the moment, and you’ve got some condition bomb builds able to on-engage getting DoT’s for 4-6k per second while running amazingly tanky stat configurations.

Haha, because power builds rely heavily on skill? Warrior, Druid, Thief.. yeah, totally related to “skill”

gebrechen.5643:

Haha, because power builds rely heavily on skill? Warrior, Druid, Thief.. yeah, totally related to “skill”

Warrior regen, must HIT TWO SKILL GREATSWORD AND MAKE YOUTUBE VID!!!

So many warriors, same traits, same boring crutch build.

RodOfDeath.5247:

gebrechen.5643:

Haha, because power builds rely heavily on skill? Warrior, Druid, Thief.. yeah, totally related to “skill”

Warrior regen, must HIT TWO SKILL GREATSWORD AND MAKE YOUTUBE VID!!!

So many warriors, same traits, same boring crutch build.

what about hammer rev i heard it was the super hard class to play !?

gebrechen.5643:

Haha, because power builds rely heavily on skill? Warrior, Druid, Thief.. yeah, totally related to “skill”

Excuse me, I lament your comment.

Berserker with strength trait and no stacking of Endure Pain (meaning using only 1 instance, or not using the skill on utility at all) and no shield DOES require extraneous skill and timing. Specifically the trait focuses heavily on dodging, and upkeep of Endurance regen.

I have personally been experimenting with a DH burn build and it absolutely wrecks groups of pugs. In fact this morning, I personally put down 5~7 TC in the NSP keep. It’s completely overpowered with the right rune setups.

The problem with conditions is that their upkeep is too high. The only balanced condition ironically is burn, because it lasts such a small amount of time that you have to invest heavily in condition DURATION, not damage. The only other one I think is remotely balanced is poison, but I’ve yet to experiment on ranger with that one for trait. Bleeds/Confusion/Freeze and even Torment on mesmer last a ridiculously long time and their playstyle as far as risk/reward are not balanced. There is more reward vs. risk on a mesmer that spams conditions and stealth. Same holds true for Reaper, freeze damage trait coupled with a 66% reduction on skill CD for your enemy (not to mention if they’re running a Knight’s build, they don’t even NEED a full condition set to inflict damage) is beyond ridiculous.

Condition duration (besides burn/poison) needs a hard nerf.
Condition damage is fine.

ryandeniszorro.6735:

As topic tittle say, are there any plans to remove skilless play, aka mesmer/trapper thief, from wvw, or/and completely nerfing condi dmg in wvw ? I dont think any explanation on reasons why skilless play is not welcome in wvw.

Mesmers are weak as atm in WvW. If I win 1 in 10 fights with my Mesmer I consider myself lucky, and I’ve been playing WvW pretty much since game launch. Maybe I’m just terrible, but I never used to be this bad.

Well the majority of power based builds in the game are just as mindless now (more so in some cases) so at this point choosing condi or power is just a matter of what’s your favourite low skill flavour.

Snowpea.5469:

ryandeniszorro.6735:

As topic tittle say, are there any plans to remove skilless play, aka mesmer/trapper thief, from wvw, or/and completely nerfing condi dmg in wvw ? I dont think any explanation on reasons why skilless play is not welcome in wvw.

Mesmers are weak as atm in WvW. If I win 1 in 10 fights with my Mesmer I consider myself lucky, and I’ve been playing WvW pretty much since game launch. Maybe I’m just terrible, but I never used to be this bad.

That doesn’t sound right. Maybe you’re not using the right build? Not full Dire/Trailblazer gear?

For most 1v1 a condi Mesmer should be winning unless the opponent “ain’t got time for that kitten” and just leaves. For small group fights the condi Mesmer should at least always be the last one standing.

FugueState.3842:

Berserker with strength trait and no stacking of Endure Pain (meaning using only 1 instance, or not using the skill on utility at all) and no shield DOES require extraneous skill and timing. Specifically the trait focuses heavily on dodging, and upkeep of Endurance regen.

Any build that is strictly worse than another build will require more skill to get wins than the superior build, though.

Just like you can play a weaker power build and need more skill you could also play a weaker condi build and need more skill as well.

I saw some condi ticks between 4k and 7k each sec… why isnt condition damage a complement to direct damage? Anyone actually thinks its balanced to have 4 ticks for 5k for ex and be dead? The lack of skill aplying condi requires is so low how come the reward is so big?

Only burns tick that high without many stacks… And the builds that apply this much burn are normally the easiest ones to deal with (Burn Guardian and Burn Engineer).

Now if you are letting people put 20+ stacks of a condition on you and don’t clear it right away, that’s entirely on you.

As a d/d ele I dont find condi to be that big of a deal but warriors/dh with their constant stab/blocks and insane health regen whilst still packing a lot more damage than most classes to be

If I hit some people on a power build, repeatedly, as many times as I do on my P/D thief to stack enough condition damage to kill them…

I’d have killed them several times over.