Guild Wars 2

I understand that condi damage stacks are raised for pve content, so that 50 players can add their condis to a world boss. However, is that same 1500 stack limit applicable to WvW? Yes, I understand that some things are still limited to 25, like vunerablility, but I’m talking bleeds, burning, poison, confusion. I just don’t see players surviving more than a couple seconds in a condi bomb if there is no limit in WvW.

So, will there be a WvW limit to condi stacks?

The amount of unloading you’d need to do to stack up enough conditions to kill people is equivalent to the amount of unloading you could do in power builds to kill people.

The difference is that conditions can be instantly cleansed, or completely negated by the use of resistance. Power can’t be.

Power attacks can be affected by aegis, blinds, toughness, etc. Conditions ignore armor and blinds don’t affect pusling attacks. With the stability changes completely borking WvW, I just can imagine all the dazed, immobilized, stunned people getting melted by wells, and all the new conditions specs that are coming out. Yes, we can cleanse, but not when CCed.

With the guardian getting reinforced F2, and warshout getting buffed, i dont think you’ll see a meta damage switch in wvw

Fay.2357:

The amount of unloading you’d need to do to stack up enough conditions to kill people is equivalent to the amount of unloading you could do in power builds to kill people.

The difference is that conditions can be instantly cleansed, or completely negated by the use of resistance. Power can’t be.

Incorrect. Power is negated by dodging, popping active defenses on weapons or popping active defenses on skills. Conditions cant be instantly cleanse anywhere near the amount that power damage can be instantly negated. You often only have 1 skill to cleanse a couple conditions, 2 if you are lucky. Question is, how much “resistance” do we have?

The worst thing is probably that condi builds are already powerful in smaller numbers. Condi being meta will be… dull. 5-10 man havoc squads just run condi stacking builds and melt everything they focus on? Many current builds have no real condition cleanse. Weak condi-cleanse classes are going to be crippled by it while strong condi-cleanse classes grow even stronger.

But its not like it matters. All that matters is that it works in PvE. WvW can be broken, we all know it.

Power builds require far more skills then Condi builds, Meta is imho going in the wrong direction for this (dying)game

Ravezaar.4951:

Power builds require far more skills then Condi builds, Meta is imho going in the wrong direction for this (dying)game

You must be joking. Power builds doesn’t take any kind of skill in wvw. When i play power necro i just drop wells and spam all possible skills and do huge amount damage. Condi necro doesn’t do kitten even if i play it 10 times better than power necro. It’s time nerf warriors and guardians aoe condi removal. Everybody should remove their own conditions-

Power build runs with lower armor and health than condi, you can’t possibly says that condi require more skill to be played. The place for error is way bigger.
Just look how many kitten -condi build you see in roaming and how many power build.

Blob is another issue. The dispell spamm is stronger than the condi spamm. It can’t be solved since you take MT with pure AOE cleanse and that one cleanse remove all the stacks. Game design make dispell stronger than condi in large scale. That’s all. That might be poor, but that’s how it is.

Dawdler.8521:

Fay.2357:

The amount of unloading you’d need to do to stack up enough conditions to kill people is equivalent to the amount of unloading you could do in power builds to kill people.

The difference is that conditions can be instantly cleansed, or completely negated by the use of resistance. Power can’t be.

Incorrect. Power is negated by dodging, popping active defenses on weapons or popping active defenses on skills. Conditions cant be instantly cleanse anywhere near the amount that power damage can be instantly negated. You often only have 1 skill to cleanse a couple conditions, 2 if you are lucky. Question is, how much “resistance” do we have?

The worst thing is probably that condi builds are already powerful in smaller numbers. Condi being meta will be… dull. 5-10 man havoc squads just run condi stacking builds and melt everything they focus on? Many current builds have no real condition cleanse. Weak condi-cleanse classes are going to be crippled by it while strong condi-cleanse classes grow even stronger.

But its not like it matters. All that matters is that it works in PvE. WvW can be broken, we all know it.

Your argument is absurd, bordering on hilariously wrong.

So you’re saying that power damage can be mitigated with blinds, blocks, dodges, and active defenses? Well, listen carefully, because I’m about to blow your mind.

Power damage and condition damage are both applied the exact same way: with ‘hits’ that can be dodged, blocked, or otherwise mitigated by active defense.

Conditions then have a further mitigation potential in the form of removal (and now resistance). Power has further mitigation in the form of toughness and protection.

Both modes of applying damage are roughly equal in a Zerg situation, with power getting the edge due to instant effects where conditions need time to tick.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Power attacks can be affected by aegis, blinds, toughness, etc. Conditions ignore armor and blinds don’t affect pusling attacks. With the stability changes completely borking WvW, I just can imagine all the dazed, immobilized, stunned people getting melted by wells, and all the new conditions specs that are coming out. Yes, we can cleanse, but not when CCed.

People seem to forget that the attacks that put condis on you can be blocked, blinded, dodged, out-healed, stopped by invulnerability and tanked with vitality. If those attacks themselves are stopped you don’t get any condis on you, just because you don’t see big numbers when you get hit doesn’t mean you shouldn’t mitigate them. They can also be cleansed and converted on top of that and completely negated by resistance.

Oh and no you’re not gonna get more than 25 condi stacks on you, and I’ll say again if you are bad enough to get 25 stacks alone of a condi on you, you are dead anyway.

Ok, lets take a look at a real, practical application with this hypithetical.

Lets say you’re part of a guild group. Usually about 1/2 are backline. Lets say your group is 20. You’re group is commanding and has another 20 pugs following. Usually they are mostly ranged, so lets say another 15 ranged. That’s 25 ranged players. So now, the new thing is condi damage, so your 10 guildies are trying that out. Lets say that 10 out of the 15 pugs are also trying this out. That would be 20 condi based ranged DPS.

One can easily get 2000 condi damage, so lets plug that into the new formulas.
Bleeding 2 + (.3 × 80) + (.075 × 2000) = 176 / tick
Burning 7.5 + (1.55 × 80) + (.155 × 2000) = 442 / tick
Poison 3.5 + (.375 × 80) + (.06 × 2000) = 154 / tick
Torment (while moving as WvW is almost never stationary) 3 + (.45 × 80) + (.11 × 2000) = 259
Confusion 2 + (.3 × 80) + (.04 × 2000) = 106

As we can see above, burning has the highest dps. Also, it will stack intensity rather than duration. This will become the new meta, and with the changes to elementalist, it will be the class to dish out this damage. They will have a ton of ways to apply burning and most of their burning skills have increased duration. If there are a bunch of eles in the above group lets say 10 out of 10, I can easily see 20 stacks of burning being continuously applied to the focus of damage. That would be 9000 / second. This doesn’t take into account the bleeds being applied by necromancers , rangers, mesmers (which also has a lot of burning procs) engis ( I don’t play an engi, but I think they have lots of burning damage), plus the poison.

How much more damage per second would be dished out by the other classes? I don’t want to go through all the changes for each class, but I’m sure it would be very high. I know that rangers and engis can very quickly apply 20 stack of bleeding. Thieves can apply a ton of poison and bleeding with their shortbow and continuously re-apply it.
None of this takes into acount the frontline condition damge. This might be minor as most of them will probably remain power, but there might be builds, such as with the guardian that has lots of built in fire traits, that is viable for burning dps while maintaining toughness.

I think it’s very reasonable to guess that with the 40 man group above, they could maintain 20,000 dps to the focused damage area (and I think that’s being conservative). With well placed static fields and immobilization, that would melt a group.

Again, these changes were desinged for PvE, not WvW. So, my question has not been answered unless a dev responds or someone can quote something from Anet addressing this issue.

I’d like to think of the opportunity of 25 rangers stacking all flame, spike and snake traps in a door now. Instant huge stacks of condis to whoever hits that.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Ok, lets take a look at a real, practical application with this hypithetical.

Lets say you’re part of a guild group. Usually about 1/2 are backline. Lets say your group is 20. You’re group is commanding and has another 20 pugs following. Usually they are mostly ranged, so lets say another 15 ranged. That’s 25 ranged players. So now, the new thing is condi damage, so your 10 guildies are trying that out. Lets say that 10 out of the 15 pugs are also trying this out. That would be 20 condi based ranged DPS.

One can easily get 2000 condi damage, so lets plug that into the new formulas.
Bleeding 2 + (.3 × 80) + (.075 × 2000) = 176 / tick
Burning 7.5 + (1.55 × 80) + (.155 × 2000) = 442 / tick
Poison 3.5 + (.375 × 80) + (.06 × 2000) = 154 / tick
Torment (while moving as WvW is almost never stationary) 3 + (.45 × 80) + (.11 × 2000) = 259
Confusion 2 + (.3 × 80) + (.04 × 2000) = 106

As we can see above, burning has the highest dps. Also, it will stack intensity rather than duration. This will become the new meta, and with the changes to elementalist, it will be the class to dish out this damage. They will have a ton of ways to apply burning and most of their burning skills have increased duration. If there are a bunch of eles in the above group lets say 10 out of 10, I can easily see 20 stacks of burning being continuously applied to the focus of damage. That would be 9000 / second. This doesn’t take into account the bleeds being applied by necromancers , rangers, mesmers (which also has a lot of burning procs) engis ( I don’t play an engi, but I think they have lots of burning damage), plus the poison.

How much more damage per second would be dished out by the other classes? I don’t want to go through all the changes for each class, but I’m sure it would be very high. I know that rangers and engis can very quickly apply 20 stack of bleeding. Thieves can apply a ton of poison and bleeding with their shortbow and continuously re-apply it.
None of this takes into acount the frontline condition damge. This might be minor as most of them will probably remain power, but there might be builds, such as with the guardian that has lots of built in fire traits, that is viable for burning dps while maintaining toughness.

I think it’s very reasonable to guess that with the 40 man group above, they could maintain 20,000 dps to the focused damage area (and I think that’s being conservative). With well placed static fields and immobilization, that would melt a group.

Again, these changes were desinged for PvE, not WvW. So, my question has not been answered unless a dev responds or someone can quote something from Anet addressing this issue.

I’ll tell you what, do a calculation for me. Calculate the amount of dps from the max amount of condis you can currently stack and tell me how much health you have. You will find it is more than enough to kill you, then try to answer me the question of why condis aren’t currently used by guild groups.

Yup, just checked out the changes to guardian. They will be able to apply a massive amount of burning and re-apply it very quickly.

Also, none of the above numbers takes into account might stacks.

Seriously go play condi class in wvw. You notice that condition dmg is totally useless and need some serious buff or aoe condi removal needs some serious nerf.

Zetsumei.4975:

Spurnshadow.3678:

Ok, lets take a look at a real, practical application with this hypithetical.

Lets say you’re part of a guild group. Usually about 1/2 are backline. Lets say your group is 20. You’re group is commanding and has another 20 pugs following. Usually they are mostly ranged, so lets say another 15 ranged. That’s 25 ranged players. So now, the new thing is condi damage, so your 10 guildies are trying that out. Lets say that 10 out of the 15 pugs are also trying this out. That would be 20 condi based ranged DPS.

One can easily get 2000 condi damage, so lets plug that into the new formulas.
Bleeding 2 + (.3 × 80) + (.075 × 2000) = 176 / tick
Burning 7.5 + (1.55 × 80) + (.155 × 2000) = 442 / tick
Poison 3.5 + (.375 × 80) + (.06 × 2000) = 154 / tick
Torment (while moving as WvW is almost never stationary) 3 + (.45 × 80) + (.11 × 2000) = 259
Confusion 2 + (.3 × 80) + (.04 × 2000) = 106

As we can see above, burning has the highest dps. Also, it will stack intensity rather than duration. This will become the new meta, and with the changes to elementalist, it will be the class to dish out this damage. They will have a ton of ways to apply burning and most of their burning skills have increased duration. If there are a bunch of eles in the above group lets say 10 out of 10, I can easily see 20 stacks of burning being continuously applied to the focus of damage. That would be 9000 / second. This doesn’t take into account the bleeds being applied by necromancers , rangers, mesmers (which also has a lot of burning procs) engis ( I don’t play an engi, but I think they have lots of burning damage), plus the poison.

How much more damage per second would be dished out by the other classes? I don’t want to go through all the changes for each class, but I’m sure it would be very high. I know that rangers and engis can very quickly apply 20 stack of bleeding. Thieves can apply a ton of poison and bleeding with their shortbow and continuously re-apply it.
None of this takes into acount the frontline condition damge. This might be minor as most of them will probably remain power, but there might be builds, such as with the guardian that has lots of built in fire traits, that is viable for burning dps while maintaining toughness.

I think it’s very reasonable to guess that with the 40 man group above, they could maintain 20,000 dps to the focused damage area (and I think that’s being conservative). With well placed static fields and immobilization, that would melt a group.

Again, these changes were desinged for PvE, not WvW. So, my question has not been answered unless a dev responds or someone can quote something from Anet addressing this issue.

I’ll tell you what, do a calculation for me. Calculate the amount of dps from the max amount of condis you can currently stack and tell me how much health you have. You will find it is more than enough to kill you, then try to answer me the question of why condis aren’t currently used by guild groups.

Condis are currently not used by guild groups due to the massive amount of cleansing available. However, in Mid-March, they implemented the stability changes. This seriously borked WvW and made dps bombs much more effective as we no longer have to worry about boon stripping. Now, we have a utility slot freed up. All we have to do is spam CCs. This makes cleansing much more difficult. That, in turn, makes immobilization much more effective and stuns, dazes, knockdowns, knockbacks much more prevalent.

The other reason why condi were never the meta was due to the 25 stack limit. If everyone was running condi damage, then there would be a ton of wasted dps.

If we get rid of the 25 stack limit, then this becomes viable again. Condi builds are able to consistently re-apply condi damage. If there are enough people, this can easily go over 25 stacks. Just look at all the condi on crit traits out there.

Another thing to consider about power damage, is one can simply move out of the area of attack. If condis are applied to you, and not cleansed, the damage stays on you.

This concern of mine, and many others, is mostly for the large group fights. However, small havoc groups would also be affected by this. A good, small team usually calls a target and focuses dps on that target. These smaller groups usually have less cleansing available and easily go over the 25 stack limit.

I’m not an idiot. I’ve played on Blackgate since launch and have commanded a long time.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Ok, lets take a look at a real, practical application with this hypithetical.

Lets say you’re part of a guild group. Usually about 1/2 are backline. Lets say your group is 20. You’re group is commanding and has another 20 pugs following. Usually they are mostly ranged, so lets say another 15 ranged. That’s 25 ranged players. So now, the new thing is condi damage, so your 10 guildies are trying that out. Lets say that 10 out of the 15 pugs are also trying this out. That would be 20 condi based ranged DPS.

One can easily get 2000 condi damage, so lets plug that into the new formulas.
Bleeding 2 + (.3 × 80) + (.075 × 2000) = 176 / tick
Burning 7.5 + (1.55 × 80) + (.155 × 2000) = 442 / tick
Poison 3.5 + (.375 × 80) + (.06 × 2000) = 154 / tick
Torment (while moving as WvW is almost never stationary) 3 + (.45 × 80) + (.11 × 2000) = 259
Confusion 2 + (.3 × 80) + (.04 × 2000) = 106

As we can see above, burning has the highest dps. Also, it will stack intensity rather than duration. This will become the new meta, and with the changes to elementalist, it will be the class to dish out this damage. They will have a ton of ways to apply burning and most of their burning skills have increased duration. If there are a bunch of eles in the above group lets say 10 out of 10, I can easily see 20 stacks of burning being continuously applied to the focus of damage. That would be 9000 / second. This doesn’t take into account the bleeds being applied by necromancers , rangers, mesmers (which also has a lot of burning procs) engis ( I don’t play an engi, but I think they have lots of burning damage), plus the poison.

How much more damage per second would be dished out by the other classes? I don’t want to go through all the changes for each class, but I’m sure it would be very high. I know that rangers and engis can very quickly apply 20 stack of bleeding. Thieves can apply a ton of poison and bleeding with their shortbow and continuously re-apply it.
None of this takes into acount the frontline condition damge. This might be minor as most of them will probably remain power, but there might be builds, such as with the guardian that has lots of built in fire traits, that is viable for burning dps while maintaining toughness.

I think it’s very reasonable to guess that with the 40 man group above, they could maintain 20,000 dps to the focused damage area (and I think that’s being conservative). With well placed static fields and immobilization, that would melt a group.

Again, these changes were desinged for PvE, not WvW. So, my question has not been answered unless a dev responds or someone can quote something from Anet addressing this issue.

And then 5 guardians faceroll across their bar of shouts, and all those condies suddenly disappear.

There are a lot of very distinct counters to condition damage right now, and that’s why it’s not meta.

Junkpile.7439:

Seriously go play condi class in wvw. You notice that condition dmg is totally useless and need some serious buff or aoe condi removal needs some serious nerf.

That is how it currently stands. I’m talking after the patch.

Fay.2357:

Power damage and condition damage are both applied the exact same way: with ‘hits’ that can be dodged, blocked, or otherwise mitigated by active defense.

Condition damage happen when the condition is already on the player and is a function of time and stacks, not hitting the player. You are talking about condition application and no, its not mitigated in quite the same way direct damage is. In fact Anet has set up specific rules for it, the same skills that completely negate direct damage let conditions straight through. They also have this whole “unblockable” thing, incidently on alot of the CC/condition skills. Condition damage can currently only be mitigated by actually removing the condition.

But sure, I’m hilariously wrong. At least I’m hilariously something, that’s the best compliment I have heard in quite some time.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Condis are currently not used by guild groups due to the massive amount of cleansing available. However, in Mid-March, they implemented the stability changes. This seriously borked WvW and made dps bombs much more effective as we no longer have to worry about boon stripping. Now, we have a utility slot freed up. All we have to do is spam CCs. This makes cleansing much more difficult. That, in turn, makes immobilization much more effective and stuns, dazes, knockdowns, knockbacks much more prevalent.

The other reason why condi were never the meta was due to the 25 stack limit. If everyone was running condi damage, then there would be a ton of wasted dps.

If we get rid of the 25 stack limit, then this becomes viable again. Condi builds are able to consistently re-apply condi damage. If there are enough people, this can easily go over 25 stacks. Just look at all the condi on crit traits out there.

Another thing to consider about power damage, is one can simply move out of the area of attack. If condis are applied to you, and not cleansed, the damage stays on you.

This concern of mine, and many others, is mostly for the large group fights. However, small havoc groups would also be affected by this. A good, small team usually calls a target and focuses dps on that target. These smaller groups usually have less cleansing available and easily go over the 25 stack limit.

I’m not an idiot. I’ve played on Blackgate since launch and have commanded a long time.

You make a hilarious jump from the stab change to condis being viable. You seem to think that you will be able to CC lock a group to the point where they are unable to use condi cleanses yet say that they will be able to move out of a well bomb which will kill them in a matter of seconds. This just falls back to the point of if you able to lock a group down in CC long enough to stack condis on them they would have died to well bombs anyway.

Condis not being meta was nothing to do with the condi stack limit because you would never reach it. This is because of not only condi cleanses but people using -65% to -98% condi reduction, this means the stacks time out long before they can build intensity, have you even theorycrafted for condi roaming? You also seem to be forgetting about the aoe limit. You still haven’t made a comment about how if you were to somehow, somehow put 25 bleeds, burning, poison etc on a group now they would be dead anyway.

As a side note, sorry it bugs me if this is the case.. I had to.. I hope you don’t seriously think being on a server that holds it ranking due to population and coverage, and pug commanding adds any credibility to your opinion on theorycrafting for guild groups.

Zetsumei.4975:

Spurnshadow.3678:

Condis are currently not used by guild groups due to the massive amount of cleansing available. However, in Mid-March, they implemented the stability changes. This seriously borked WvW and made dps bombs much more effective as we no longer have to worry about boon stripping. Now, we have a utility slot freed up. All we have to do is spam CCs. This makes cleansing much more difficult. That, in turn, makes immobilization much more effective and stuns, dazes, knockdowns, knockbacks much more prevalent.

The other reason why condi were never the meta was due to the 25 stack limit. If everyone was running condi damage, then there would be a ton of wasted dps.

If we get rid of the 25 stack limit, then this becomes viable again. Condi builds are able to consistently re-apply condi damage. If there are enough people, this can easily go over 25 stacks. Just look at all the condi on crit traits out there.

Another thing to consider about power damage, is one can simply move out of the area of attack. If condis are applied to you, and not cleansed, the damage stays on you.

This concern of mine, and many others, is mostly for the large group fights. However, small havoc groups would also be affected by this. A good, small team usually calls a target and focuses dps on that target. These smaller groups usually have less cleansing available and easily go over the 25 stack limit.

I’m not an idiot. I’ve played on Blackgate since launch and have commanded a long time.

You make a hilarious jump from the stab change to condis being viable. You seem to think that you will be able to CC lock a group to the point where they are unable to use condi cleanses yet say that they will be able to move out of a well bomb which will kill them in a matter of seconds. This just falls back to the point of if you able to lock a group down in CC long enough to stack condis on them they would have died to well bombs anyway.

Condis not being meta was nothing to do with the condi stack limit because you would never reach it. This is because of not only condi cleanses but people using -65% to -98% condi reduction, this means the stacks time out long before they can build intensity, have you even theorycrafted for condi roaming? You also seem to be forgetting about the aoe limit. You still haven’t made a comment about how if you were to somehow, somehow put 25 bleeds, burning, poison etc on a group now they would be dead anyway.

Stab changes make condi viable because of the prevalence of CCs. There are much more stuns and dazes being thrown out there, which means less cleansing. How is this halarious? I think it’s realistic, as we already suffer from it.

+ condi duration food negates -condi reduction food. Most trait lines that spec into condi damage have + condi duration. Of course the stack limit is part of condis not being a viable meta.

A decent sized group, in my example above if most of them are condi specced, should be able to maintain at least 25 stacks of condi damge from auto attacks alone. This is not counting any of their other attacks which can bring that stack well up to 75 or 100.

After the patch, necro wells will be a poor source for condi damge.

Junkpile.7439:

Seriously go play condi class in wvw. You notice that condition dmg is totally useless and need some serious buff or aoe condi removal needs some serious nerf.

Please be sarcastic.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Zetsumei.4975:

Spurnshadow.3678:

Condis are currently not used by guild groups due to the massive amount of cleansing available. However, in Mid-March, they implemented the stability changes. This seriously borked WvW and made dps bombs much more effective as we no longer have to worry about boon stripping. Now, we have a utility slot freed up. All we have to do is spam CCs. This makes cleansing much more difficult. That, in turn, makes immobilization much more effective and stuns, dazes, knockdowns, knockbacks much more prevalent.

The other reason why condi were never the meta was due to the 25 stack limit. If everyone was running condi damage, then there would be a ton of wasted dps.

If we get rid of the 25 stack limit, then this becomes viable again. Condi builds are able to consistently re-apply condi damage. If there are enough people, this can easily go over 25 stacks. Just look at all the condi on crit traits out there.

Another thing to consider about power damage, is one can simply move out of the area of attack. If condis are applied to you, and not cleansed, the damage stays on you.

This concern of mine, and many others, is mostly for the large group fights. However, small havoc groups would also be affected by this. A good, small team usually calls a target and focuses dps on that target. These smaller groups usually have less cleansing available and easily go over the 25 stack limit.

I’m not an idiot. I’ve played on Blackgate since launch and have commanded a long time.

You make a hilarious jump from the stab change to condis being viable. You seem to think that you will be able to CC lock a group to the point where they are unable to use condi cleanses yet say that they will be able to move out of a well bomb which will kill them in a matter of seconds. This just falls back to the point of if you able to lock a group down in CC long enough to stack condis on them they would have died to well bombs anyway.

Condis not being meta was nothing to do with the condi stack limit because you would never reach it. This is because of not only condi cleanses but people using -65% to -98% condi reduction, this means the stacks time out long before they can build intensity, have you even theorycrafted for condi roaming? You also seem to be forgetting about the aoe limit. You still haven’t made a comment about how if you were to somehow, somehow put 25 bleeds, burning, poison etc on a group now they would be dead anyway.

Stab changes make condi viable because of the prevalence of CCs. There are much more stuns and dazes being thrown out there, which means less cleansing. How is this halarious? I think it’s realistic, as we already suffer from it.

+ condi duration food negates -condi reduction food. Most trait lines that spec into condi damage have + condi duration. Of course the stack limit is part of condis not being a viable meta.

A decent sized group, in my example above if most of them are condi specced, should be able to maintain at least 25 stacks of condi damge from auto attacks alone. This is not counting any of their other attacks which can bring that stack well up to 75 or 100.

After the patch, necro wells will be a poor source for condi damge.

Err.. you do realize necro wells are the main source of physical dmg dps for guild groups right? Wells are not used for their Condi damage.. Again if you can CC someone long enough to prevent them from using a condi cleanse before you are done stacking well over 25 bleeds and letting them tick they would have died to standard necro wells anyway.

Zetsumei.4975:

Spurnshadow.3678:

Zetsumei.4975:

Spurnshadow.3678:

Condis are currently not used by guild groups due to the massive amount of cleansing available. However, in Mid-March, they implemented the stability changes. This seriously borked WvW and made dps bombs much more effective as we no longer have to worry about boon stripping. Now, we have a utility slot freed up. All we have to do is spam CCs. This makes cleansing much more difficult. That, in turn, makes immobilization much more effective and stuns, dazes, knockdowns, knockbacks much more prevalent.

The other reason why condi were never the meta was due to the 25 stack limit. If everyone was running condi damage, then there would be a ton of wasted dps.

If we get rid of the 25 stack limit, then this becomes viable again. Condi builds are able to consistently re-apply condi damage. If there are enough people, this can easily go over 25 stacks. Just look at all the condi on crit traits out there.

Another thing to consider about power damage, is one can simply move out of the area of attack. If condis are applied to you, and not cleansed, the damage stays on you.

This concern of mine, and many others, is mostly for the large group fights. However, small havoc groups would also be affected by this. A good, small team usually calls a target and focuses dps on that target. These smaller groups usually have less cleansing available and easily go over the 25 stack limit.

I’m not an idiot. I’ve played on Blackgate since launch and have commanded a long time.

You make a hilarious jump from the stab change to condis being viable. You seem to think that you will be able to CC lock a group to the point where they are unable to use condi cleanses yet say that they will be able to move out of a well bomb which will kill them in a matter of seconds. This just falls back to the point of if you able to lock a group down in CC long enough to stack condis on them they would have died to well bombs anyway.

Condis not being meta was nothing to do with the condi stack limit because you would never reach it. This is because of not only condi cleanses but people using -65% to -98% condi reduction, this means the stacks time out long before they can build intensity, have you even theorycrafted for condi roaming? You also seem to be forgetting about the aoe limit. You still haven’t made a comment about how if you were to somehow, somehow put 25 bleeds, burning, poison etc on a group now they would be dead anyway.

Stab changes make condi viable because of the prevalence of CCs. There are much more stuns and dazes being thrown out there, which means less cleansing. How is this halarious? I think it’s realistic, as we already suffer from it.

+ condi duration food negates -condi reduction food. Most trait lines that spec into condi damage have + condi duration. Of course the stack limit is part of condis not being a viable meta.

A decent sized group, in my example above if most of them are condi specced, should be able to maintain at least 25 stacks of condi damge from auto attacks alone. This is not counting any of their other attacks which can bring that stack well up to 75 or 100.

After the patch, necro wells will be a poor source for condi damge.

Err.. you do realize necro wells are the main source of physical dmg dps for guild groups right? Wells are not used for their Condi damage.. Again if you can CC someone long enough to prevent them from using a condi cleanse before you are done stacking well over 25 bleeds and letting them tick they would have died to standard necro wells anyway.

Do you realize that well of corruption is a huge source of condi damage for a condi necro? I was responding to your post discussing wells and condi damage. After the patch, with the changes to boon to condi conversion, this will be drastically changed.

I’m done with you.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Zetsumei.4975:

Spurnshadow.3678:

Zetsumei.4975:

Spurnshadow.3678:

Condis are currently not used by guild groups due to the massive amount of cleansing available. However, in Mid-March, they implemented the stability changes. This seriously borked WvW and made dps bombs much more effective as we no longer have to worry about boon stripping. Now, we have a utility slot freed up. All we have to do is spam CCs. This makes cleansing much more difficult. That, in turn, makes immobilization much more effective and stuns, dazes, knockdowns, knockbacks much more prevalent.

The other reason why condi were never the meta was due to the 25 stack limit. If everyone was running condi damage, then there would be a ton of wasted dps.

If we get rid of the 25 stack limit, then this becomes viable again. Condi builds are able to consistently re-apply condi damage. If there are enough people, this can easily go over 25 stacks. Just look at all the condi on crit traits out there.

Another thing to consider about power damage, is one can simply move out of the area of attack. If condis are applied to you, and not cleansed, the damage stays on you.

This concern of mine, and many others, is mostly for the large group fights. However, small havoc groups would also be affected by this. A good, small team usually calls a target and focuses dps on that target. These smaller groups usually have less cleansing available and easily go over the 25 stack limit.

I’m not an idiot. I’ve played on Blackgate since launch and have commanded a long time.

You make a hilarious jump from the stab change to condis being viable. You seem to think that you will be able to CC lock a group to the point where they are unable to use condi cleanses yet say that they will be able to move out of a well bomb which will kill them in a matter of seconds. This just falls back to the point of if you able to lock a group down in CC long enough to stack condis on them they would have died to well bombs anyway.

Condis not being meta was nothing to do with the condi stack limit because you would never reach it. This is because of not only condi cleanses but people using -65% to -98% condi reduction, this means the stacks time out long before they can build intensity, have you even theorycrafted for condi roaming? You also seem to be forgetting about the aoe limit. You still haven’t made a comment about how if you were to somehow, somehow put 25 bleeds, burning, poison etc on a group now they would be dead anyway.

Stab changes make condi viable because of the prevalence of CCs. There are much more stuns and dazes being thrown out there, which means less cleansing. How is this halarious? I think it’s realistic, as we already suffer from it.

+ condi duration food negates -condi reduction food. Most trait lines that spec into condi damage have + condi duration. Of course the stack limit is part of condis not being a viable meta.

A decent sized group, in my example above if most of them are condi specced, should be able to maintain at least 25 stacks of condi damge from auto attacks alone. This is not counting any of their other attacks which can bring that stack well up to 75 or 100.

After the patch, necro wells will be a poor source for condi damge.

Err.. you do realize necro wells are the main source of physical dmg dps for guild groups right? Wells are not used for their Condi damage.. Again if you can CC someone long enough to prevent them from using a condi cleanse before you are done stacking well over 25 bleeds and letting them tick they would have died to standard necro wells anyway.

Do you realize that well of corruption is a huge source of condi damage for a condi necro? I was responding to your post discussing wells and condi damage. After the patch, with the changes to boon to condi conversion, this will be drastically changed.

I’m done with you.

So a well that randomly corrupts boons into conditions is a huge source of condie damage? You’ve got some rethinking to do buster. The majority of boons corrupt into non-damaging conditions, so remind me how well of corruption is a huge source of condition damage?

Spurnshadow.3678:

Do you realize that well of corruption is a huge source of condi damage for a condi necro? I was responding to your post discussing wells and condi damage. After the patch, with the changes to boon to condi conversion, this will be drastically changed.

I’m done with you.

Lmao you’re done with me? You do realise your lack of the knowledge that wells are used in guild groups for their physical damage has cost you all credibility in this thread. The fact that you have no idea where the damage comes from in a guild groups team comp means this entire conversation was pointless.

And no, look at the amount of stacks you gain from corrupted condis btw it’s not a huge source of damage, the nice thing about corrupting is the stripping of boons and in some cases the secondary effects of certain conditions, such as converting stability into fear. However the corruption of stability would never happen in large scale fights because having enough cover boons meant that you would not be able to get to the stability which is very low on the corruption priority list, however with the new change to corruptions I believe the priority list is now rng and so there is a chance now that stability will be corrupted in a well bomb which will be very interesting.

I played WvW for about 1 and a half years, one of the reasons why I stopped, albeit, in smaller part to night capping, was the incredibly boring meta.

I mained guardian, but also played my mesmer and necro plenty of times on various builds, and warrior, ele, thief sometimes, also on various builds. I have also done pretty much everythign at all scales, solo roaming, 2-3 people roaming, small group / havoc, organized mid size guild groups, large groups, map blobs. Also commanded quite a bit.

I am very happy that a-net is willing to shake up the meta.

Lets face it, white damage has basically ruled WvW. there are some situations where condi builds would be equal to white damage providing good fights, but as fights scale up, condi becomes less and less effective whereas white damage remains the same effectiveness.

Its about time they change the way group combat works, especially on the larger scales.

Also I see a lot of statements in above posts which are false. For example:
White damage can be dodged condis can not – this is false. While a condi can not be dodged once it is on you, its application can be dodged most of the time, with very few exceptions and some specialized traits / builds.

Overall these are good changes and long, long overdue thru the entire game WvW included.

I was you guys, I’d be more worried about lag and server performance that all these new stacks will bring. Now there is a legitimate issue. Take your current laggy situations and multiply them a few times in number of occurances, length of time they last, and of course pure intensity (what is slightly laggy now will be extreme after all this goes live).

As for the condi vs white dmg. Those who can adapt will thrive. It will be great to have additional options for team make up.

I’m talking about condi builds, not power builds. Please read your posts and mine in context.

Anyway, this has devolved into the merits of condi damgage. Many of y’all are still stuck on the current system and not taking into acount all the changes coming next week as well as the specializations.

Again, I’m just looking for an answer to the question from a dev or a quote from an Anet published source on whether or not there will be a condi cap in WvW.

Spurnshadow.3678:

I’m talking about condi builds, not power builds. Please read your posts and mine in context.

Anyway, this has devolved into the merits of condi damgage. Many of y’all are still stuck on the current system and not taking into acount all the changes coming next week as well as the specializations.

Again, I’m just looking for an answer to the question from a dev or a quote from an Anet published source on whether or not there will be a condi cap in WvW.

Of course there won’t be. It’s not broken, and there’s no need to fix it. You’re just going off on wild fantasies about how well of corruption is somehow going to stack 80 bleeds on people.

Junkpile.7439:

Seriously go play condi class in wvw. You notice that condition dmg is totally useless and need some serious buff or aoe condi removal needs some serious nerf.

lel

Dawdler.8521:

Fay.2357:

Power damage and condition damage are both applied the exact same way: with ‘hits’ that can be dodged, blocked, or otherwise mitigated by active defense.

Condition damage happen when the condition is already on the player and is a function of time and stacks, not hitting the player. You are talking about condition application and no, its not mitigated in quite the same way direct damage is. In fact Anet has set up specific rules for it, the same skills that completely negate direct damage let conditions straight through. They also have this whole “unblockable” thing, incidently on alot of the CC/condition skills. Condition damage can currently only be mitigated by actually removing the condition.

But sure, I’m hilariously wrong. At least I’m hilariously something, that’s the best compliment I have heard in quite some time.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Are you kidding me?

First:
In order for a condition to do damage, it needs to be applied. So stopping the application stops the damage. Fay’s statement was completely correct. This works the same as stopping direct damage. Actually, there are through Resistance now even more common ways to stop conditions from taking effect on top of the fact that conditions do their damage over time and can be cleansed.

Second:
Please show me the over abundance of condition applying skills, that circumvent the defensive means, which usually work against power damage.

This discussion is as old as GW2 itself. And besides from roaming/small scale combat condition builds always performed worse in the WvW setup compared to tanky support or power builds.