Guild Wars 2

New Condition: Tumult (WvW only)

Reduces your movement speed by 25%; adds a 25% chance to miss

This condition automatically applies to you when there are more than 10 players in a distinct area around you (e.g. 600 range). Tumult automatically ends when less than 10 players are around you. Cannot be removed with Condition Removers.

Discuss.

People really need to stop and realize that wvw is a zerg type game mode. You will never change it if you want no zergs go spvp

*facepalm……

10 seems a bit small.
When you do a gvg with 10 or less people, you use SPVP builds.
And it is a complete different game then a 15+ GvG, since in small scale battles you use more focus target to bing enemies down 1 by 1.
So the normal warband that plays for fights(don’t want to create lag or kill stuff is easy mode) have between 15 and 30 players. So it will destroy WvW for the people that still play WvW for fun(battles) and not for farming(karma zerg) or duelling

What should we discuss? How dumb some suggestions are?

There’s a big difference in zerging and running around in a huge blob. The current meta favors blobbing due to the AOE cap. Hide in a blob to survive enemy damage IMO is extremely dump.

The proposed condition is not against zerging, its a counter to blobbing.

I’m totally fine with zerging, but I miss the positional play from other games in the past. E.g. in DAOC only the biggest noobs stand together in a huge blob. lol

teg.1340:

New Condition: Tumult (WvW only)

Reduces your movement speed by 25%; adds a 25% chance to miss

This condition automatically applies to you when there are more than 10 players in a distinct area around you (e.g. 600 range). Tumult automatically ends when less than 10 players are around you. Cannot be removed with Condition Removers.

Discuss.

Miss chance in skill base game lol

Dutchares.6084:

10 seems a bit small.
When you do a gvg with 10 or less people, you use SPVP builds.
And it is a complete different game then a 15+ GvG, since in small scale battles you use more focus target to bing enemies down 1 by 1.
So the normal warband that plays for fights(don’t want to create lag or kill stuff is easy mode) have between 15 and 30 players. So it will destroy WvW for the people that still play WvW for fun(battles) and not for farming(karma zerg) or duelling

Feel free to tweak the numbers. Its just an idea. Maybe 10 is to low, maybe the movement debuff is to much. Again: This is not meant to prevent zerging, its just to prevent huge zergballs rolling around while spaming 1.

Evilek.5690:

teg.1340:

New Condition: Tumult (WvW only)

Reduces your movement speed by 25%; adds a 25% chance to miss

This condition automatically applies to you when there are more than 10 players in a distinct area around you (e.g. 600 range). Tumult automatically ends when less than 10 players are around you. Cannot be removed with Condition Removers.

Discuss.

Miss chance in skill base game lol

AOE cap in skill based game? lol? Wake up, bro!

Rangers always have the miss part of the proposed debuff on their LB/SB- ‘miss, miss, dodged, blocked, failed to track etc’.

teg.1340:

Evilek.5690:

teg.1340:

New Condition: Tumult (WvW only)

Reduces your movement speed by 25%; adds a 25% chance to miss

This condition automatically applies to you when there are more than 10 players in a distinct area around you (e.g. 600 range). Tumult automatically ends when less than 10 players are around you. Cannot be removed with Condition Removers.

Discuss.

Miss chance in skill base game lol

AOE cap in skill based game? lol? Wake up, bro!

AOE in all game must be

1)With low DMG→350dmg vs 1-5000 targets
2)With cap→7k dmg vs 1-5 targets
3)More targests in your aoe->smaller DMG→ 7k vs 1 tareget,3.5k vs 2targets,2333 vs 3 targets, etc

What you want ? Make 7k aoe dmg on 5 target or 700 aoe dmg on 10 target or 350 aoe dmg on 20 target ?

How about building a arrow cart? Maybe two if your feeling frisky.

teg.1340:

Evilek.5690:

teg.1340:

New Condition: Tumult (WvW only)

Reduces your movement speed by 25%; adds a 25% chance to miss

This condition automatically applies to you when there are more than 10 players in a distinct area around you (e.g. 600 range). Tumult automatically ends when less than 10 players are around you. Cannot be removed with Condition Removers.

Discuss.

Miss chance in skill base game lol

AOE cap in skill based game? lol? Wake up, bro!

And how does AOE cap equate to no skill? There are rules, adapt and perfect accordingly.

It’s how the game works. I’m not sure that changing rules to discourage stacking would discourage creating of huge zerg.
Without AOE cap most likely the group vs group fights would probably lead to creating the AOE kill zones, which neither could enter.

Although of course I agree that it’s not intuitive, after all you would imagine that a bomb or grenade exploding in group of 20 people would result in all of them in pretty bad condition.
But as it’s a game, so some simplifications are necessary.

SpehssMehreen.5897:

*facepalm……

Here u go.

teg.1340:

New Condition: Tumult (WvW only)

Reduces your movement speed by 25%; adds a 25% chance to miss

This condition automatically applies to you when there are more than 10 players in a distinct area around you (e.g. 600 range). Tumult automatically ends when less than 10 players are around you. Cannot be removed with Condition Removers.

Discuss.

Dumb idea.

Stop imposing your vision of what WvW should be on other people. Its the only gamemode currently available where a whole guild can actually run together and have fun.
Stop punishing these people because you dont like running in a large group, in a gamemode that is about running in a large group.

Why so serious? This is a discussion board so be prepared to … discuss things!

Whats a large group for you? 10 people? 20? 100?

The proposed idea doesnt prevent anyone to run in larger zergs. Instead of running in a huge zergball you just have to split into multiple teams, running side by side with a small distance to each other.

I cannot believe you really like the current meta where 100 people running in a huge blob spaming button 1 and call that a skill based game.

Yes, zergs are annoying. No, people shouldn’t be punished for running around in a giant ball.

Find something that would encourage players to run in smaller groups rather than rather than punish them for running around in a big one. Giving debuffs like that is just going to kitten everyone off. If you don’t like zergs, you can always break off and support the main group running around. You get quite a bit of rewards for going around and sniping yak’s, flipping supply camps, ninja’ing towers being trebbed etc etc

Again: I like zerg fights. But IMO its kinda dumb that running around in a huge blob is the only superior strategy due to the greatly reduced damage you receive because of the AOE cap.

Proper positioning should be a key factor in large scale battles. But in the current meta the only proper positioning is standing right in the middle of anyone else.

I’m not a programmer, but I was wondering how much processor resources would be used to have some kind of continous proximity check. I’m guessing it would be so high that it would turn GW2 into a text based game.

@ original post

NO. WvW was intended to be a large scale pvp format. Large zergs are the intention of the format not a side effect. Large zergs are also not the only viable strategy either. Get creative and coordinate your small groups on the map. I assure you if you’re coordinated enough that the enemy’s large zerg will become a detriment to their ability to hold things.

@Swamurabi
Proximity check is actually quite cheap when you use the Manhattan distance calculation
Given two locations a(x,y,z) and b(x,y,z): if you want to find if these locations are within 600 units of each other
dx = a(x) – b(x)
dy = a(y) – b(y)
dz = a(z) – b(z)
proximity = (600)* (600) >( dx*dx + dy*dy + dz*dz)

It’s like the true distance formula which takes the square root of the delta side but deals with the squares of the numbers instead. This is because square root is an expensive function computationally while the above had 4 multiplications, 3 subtractions and 3 additions. Your CPU doesn’t even notice that it does this. The only thing you have to watch for is data overflow where one side of those multiplications creates a number too big for the memory to represent.

PS: This is also why the AOE cap isn’t a technical issue for the CPU but more of a balance issue for the game format. The AOE cap prevents 5 elementalists from destroying a 40 man group. The same AOE cap is used for PVE so that players can’t AOE the content easily. Otherwise the group of 5 eles can nuke an entire room of skelk at once.

Evilek.5690:

teg.1340:

New Condition: Tumult (WvW only)

Reduces your movement speed by 25%; adds a 25% chance to miss

This condition automatically applies to you when there are more than 10 players in a distinct area around you (e.g. 600 range). Tumult automatically ends when less than 10 players are around you. Cannot be removed with Condition Removers.

Discuss.

Miss chance in skill base game lol

1. spamming in skill base game lol

lioka qiao.8734:

@ original post

NO. WvW was intended to be a large scale pvp format. Large zergs are the intention of the format not a side effect. Large zergs are also not the only viable strategy either. Get creative and coordinate your small groups on the map. I assure you if you’re coordinated enough that the enemy’s large zerg will become a detriment to their ability to hold things.

Sounds nice in theory, but there has to be a reason why most of the server run zergs all over the maps. It’s just the best way to win the week and to get wxp/karma.
imo the reasons for that are the small maps and the possibility to reach every inch of the map in very short time frame. If one of your keeps get attackt you don’t need more than 1min to get there.

teg.1340:

Why so serious? This is a discussion board so be prepared to … discuss things!

> Posts bad idea
> People post that it is and why
> “Guys this is discussion my idea is good because my way of playing is superior and more fun.”

It is too slim of a margin imo too. A zerg can run from Garrison to Bay in 1 minute. This means if you had a split force with one attacking garrison and the other at bay the zerg can wipe them one by one and be able to save Bay in time. This time is made possible by Banner Lord rezzes. Banner rez supports zergs by delaying a cap of an objective. With a cooridnated warrior group they can sustain the rez chain indefinitely and buy time for the zerg to come in and wipe the force at bay.

The maps are simply too small. The addition of waypoints makes them incredibly small. Since this thread is about zerg busting I’ll propose some methods to do it that don’t involve penalizing a tight pack of enemies.

1. Increase the offensive skill AOE cap to 20.
This is pretty obvious of a way to counter an enemy zerg since it makes it more dangerous to stack up or have a lot of players in a spot.

2. Double the size of every map.
Scale up all of the ground between objectives by 2×. The possibility for large scale combat is still there but the viability of small scale groups increases since zergs can no longer protect the whole map as one group.

3. Increase the DPS of rams, catapults, and trebs by 2×.
This reduces the time it takes to destroy walls in an objective and decreases the viability of single zerg play in support of split squad play.

AS it stands now the reason that most servers run zergs is simple. A single zerg is the best tactic for flipping an objective. The zerg simply has more resources to overcome defenses and as a result it produces the greatest reward output for time invested. When the zerg is no longer the most effective tactic for flipping things the split squad style all the zerg haters here want will come into the metagame. IMO ANET should not punish players in any way or form for grouping up in large groups. Doing such would prevent guilds from fielding their entire roster and make defense too easy.

In the mean time all the zerg haters should just ride the karma train.

teg.1340:

New Condition: Tumult (WvW only)

Reduces your movement speed by 25%; adds a 25% chance to miss

This condition automatically applies to you when there are more than 10 players in a distinct area around you (e.g. 600 range). Tumult automatically ends when less than 10 players are around you. Cannot be removed with Condition Removers.

Discuss.

Since where playing this card again read this please….

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Real-tools-for-the-WvW-player/first#post2179363

lioka qiao.8734:

The AOE cap prevents 5 elementalists from destroying a 40 man group.

Thats exactly the issue. The smaller number is handicapped twice: (i) because they are simply less in numbers and (ii) because they just can hit 5 man due to the AOE cap.

5 eles cannot destroy 40 man, but 40 man can easily destroy 5 man. Consequence? Bring 80 man running around in one huge bubble.

lioka qiao.8734:

@ original post

NO. WvW was intended to be a large scale pvp format. Large zergs are the intention of the format not a side effect. Large zergs are also not the only viable strategy either. Get creative and coordinate your small groups on the map. I assure you if you’re coordinated enough that the enemy’s large zerg will become a detriment to their ability to hold things.

@Swamurabi
Proximity check is actually quite cheap when you use the Manhattan distance calculation
Given two locations a(x,y,z) and b(x,y,z): if you want to find if these locations are within 600 units of each other
dx = a(x) – b(x)
dy = a(y) – b(y)
dz = a(z) – b(z)
proximity = (600)* (600) >( dx*dx + dy*dy + dz*dz)

It’s like the true distance formula which takes the square root of the delta side but deals with the squares of the numbers instead. This is because square root is an expensive function computationally while the above had 4 multiplications, 3 subtractions and 3 additions. Your CPU doesn’t even notice that it does this. The only thing you have to watch for is data overflow where one side of those multiplications creates a number too big for the memory to represent.

PS: This is also why the AOE cap isn’t a technical issue for the CPU but more of a balance issue for the game format. The AOE cap prevents 5 elementalists from destroying a 40 man group. The same AOE cap is used for PVE so that players can’t AOE the content easily. Otherwise the group of 5 eles can nuke an entire room of skelk at once.

What I’m worried about is that if the system can’t handle more than 5 AoE hits after a specific player skill is used, how can it handle the entire map population proximity check each second?

Even though I hate zerging and am a small group roamer, I don’t think there is any reason to punish people who like to run in large groups. We don’t need to eliminate zerg they have a purpose and are a perfectly legitimate way to play. What we need is incentive for small group play.

It has to handle the whole map population proximity check each second. It actually has to handle it for every aoe that anyone ever casts. That said they can store a list of targets that are within 2000 range to check against for common AOEs and that list is updated every 2 seconds or so to prevent too much strain. In reality the strain isn’t as strong as you think it is.
I’ll assume a population cap of 100 for each side (i don’t know exact population caps). If you also account for NPCs that are active on any given map you’ll have no more than 1200 objects to check against range for AOE. Even with assumptions flowing there is really only one way for them to handle any aoe that occurs.

1. Range check against the whole population to determine candidates for getting hit that are in range. When you cast a Necro well this is the first thing it does on every tick.
2. Out of the list of candidates pick 5 of them. The rules they use for this I don’t know. They could pick 5 random targets, 5 closest, the first 5 that appeared in the list, etc. Whatever the algorithm is it picks 5 targets.
3. Apply damage calculation math to the targets, apply condition/boon changes that are needed.

This psudeocode occurs for every aoe that ever happens in the game, even the cleaves from weapons. The weapon cleaves or cone damage is actually more expensive to calculate since they need to add an angle component to the calculation. The simplest way to do that is to use the law of cosines to calculate the angle between the vector from the center of your character to the potential target and the forward facing angle for your character. This calculation is more expensive than the simple proximity check since it has to normalize the vector between you and your target and calculate an arc cosine. This requires using a square root.

Let me put it this way. Did you ever play Age of Empires 2, Starcraft, or Warcraft and use a siege weapon? These weapons have AOE effects and have to calculate them in the same manner that our AOEs occur now. Your computer never ends up choking on the aoe calculations. If it did you would see framerate skipping whenever a siege tank fired a shot. ANET’s server won’t choke on AOe calculations either unless map population was 100,000 or more. The server’s network bandwidth will bottleneck WAY before the processor ever does.
In order for aoe cap to actually be a technical problem the server would have to be running on a PlayStation 1. Any modern CPU will handle the calculations without breaking a sweat. Having an aoe cap actually makes the AOE calculations more intensive than not having one. Without the AOE cap step 2 above is removed and all the algorithms that went with it.

Stop suggesting ideas that will punish players for playing together. This whole game is build around the fact that anyone can play together, buff each other, rez each other. Anet won’t implement something that is going to force punishment on players for doing something.

Also think of the trolling possibility you 10 dudes, go join them, they get the debuff now all of them are mad yelling at you….