Guild Wars 2

I dont know how It is on other servers but on mine new borderlands are pretty much emty everyone wanna play on EB so the queue are like reset night every night.
That gotta tell us something that new borderlands are not that good, sure there are some who enjoy it but thats not enough to justify to keep that horrid map.

Please for the love of god Anet take that horrid map off and replace it with either old alpine map or make a good map.

The desert maps are really well made, cool design and all. But the problem is they just doesn’t fit the purpose. It’s like they are made to separate ppl from eachother. Groups can run around forever withouth ever finding eachother. Incredibly boring,

Magnuzone.8395:

The desert maps are really well made, cool design and all. But the problem is they just doesn’t fit the purpose.

Yes… it is a cool PvE map… in WvW.

The WvWs just need to learn how to actually play a large scale map, not just zerg around in a blob with no consequence.

Torqbow.2839:

The WvWs just need to learn how to actually play a large scale map, not just zerg around in a blob with no consequence.

Hey users! Learn to use the product we sell so we don’t have to make a product you want to use.

That is just bad marketing advice. When something is designed well, accessible and approachable, users will flock towards it. If most of them recoil at it, it is a failure not a LtP issue.

As a long time WvW player, I can say the new borderlands are frustrative and not condusive to actual combat. They are built large and vertical with very little in the way of mobility. The keep auto upgrade system is absolutely obnoxious and defense sided, in no way should it ever take 12 people a half hour to take a completely unguarded keep… but that is what we face because if you own a keep overnight when the next shift comes in they have to face walls that take guild and superior seige ages to get through. The map is garbage, not only does it have booby traps which aren’t something that a “balanced” map needs, but they have very few entry points forcing players to go into narrow passageways. It takes the strategy out of it. Zerging is literally the only way left to take anything.

Torqbow.2839:

The WvWs just need to learn how to actually play a large scale map, not just zerg around in a blob with no consequence.

It sucks for roaming too…..

Jiggawattz.2697:

As a long time WvW player, I can say the new borderlands are frustrative and not condusive to actual combat. They are built large and vertical with very little in the way of mobility. The keep auto upgrade system is absolutely obnoxious and defense sided, in no way should it ever take 12 people a half hour to take a completely unguarded keep… but that is what we face because if you own a keep overnight when the next shift comes in they have to face walls that take guild and superior seige ages to get through. The map is garbage, not only does it have booby traps which aren’t something that a “balanced” map needs, but they have very few entry points forcing players to go into narrow passageways. It takes the strategy out of it. Zerging is literally the only way left to take anything.

If it takes 12 of you half an hour to capture an unguarded(I assume T3) keep then something is wrong with the way you do things. I’ve taken unguarded T3 keeps in less than 15 minutes with at best 10 people.

EOTM is your lead if u guys want to cap stuff w/o effort.

I think the new maps could be compared to good old IOS vs Android.

It used to be very simple and user friendly but once you get used to the new system you have many more possibilities to experience it the way you want. But more freedom also often mean more flaws you have to look at.

And the fight of old vs new borderland is using pretty much the same arguments we all know in a different form. But in the end there is not one answer to the question which is better. Some people like it simple and some want to have all the different choices.

And now we basically have eotm if you want it easy and dessert border if you like it complex, but more varied.

I’d not say R.I.P. to the WvW map change, but rather l think we should have three different borderland maps (and servers cycle through them, as usual). That way people can choose which map suits their preference or playstyle most and assault or defend it. This would give more character and drive to WvW gameplay. (What would inspire me to assault someone else’s desert/ice/grassland/lava/jungle borderland when mine looks exactly the same and gives me exactly the same benefits and dolyaks and everything?)

WvW has been dead since the development team made it the lowest priority since launch. It was a huge selling point for the game that is no so kittenized it is unplayable. It is such a shame.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Torqbow.2839:

The WvWs just need to learn how to actually play a large scale map, not just zerg around in a blob with no consequence.

It sucks for roaming too…..

To be fair, it works OK for roaming. I am actually finding myself drawn to the earth shrines just to get that buff, which is a good thing.

That said… its still boring as all kitten because towers and keeps have no purpose. They dont even draw defenders.

Heres is my 1.5 hours in the middle of primetime, T2 SFR homeborder.
- Run straight out of spawn, die soon after due to running off a cliff
- Get joined by two buddies, so now we are a 3 man on an outmanned border, yay.
- Cap 2-3 camps and about twice the shrines for an hour, spend 50% of the time being lost. See no enemy from either server, or friends for that matter. Ootmanned went away long ago, probably just a border hop.
- finally find another 3 friends by Academy, decides to ram it.
- Spend about 8 minutes being molested by guards.
- Cap it, still not having seen a single enemy… And we just took SFRs border tower of all things.
- Finally, an enemy 10 man zerg! The 3 of us quickly dispatch it and realize it was a single Necro minion master holding some siege
- Cap our own border tower that had been capped since we got there, of course undefended.
- Roam for another half hour capping a few camps. At the end, we finally met 3 enemies and had a 10 seconds fight (they had an upscale).

I had more fun in 20 minutes on the old borders, at least roaming enemy borders gave a sense of danger. People wanted to protect them. Now… They have no purpose.

Problems were certain to happen when you have a map that would support 250 people (x3 = 750) + EBG and only 100 people play that game mode at prime time in the top tier. You end up covering only 10-20% of the maps with your server population.

ESO had the same problem and they closed the empty servers maps. Anet needs to react, adapt and change the server system. It has nothing to do with the quality of the map which is really a good map minus the lack of waypoint.

Dawdler.8521:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Torqbow.2839:

The WvWs just need to learn how to actually play a large scale map, not just zerg around in a blob with no consequence.

It sucks for roaming too…..

To be fair, it works OK for roaming. I am actually finding myself drawn to the earth shrines just to get that buff, which is a good thing.

That said… its still boring as all kitten because towers and keeps have no purpose. They dont even draw defenders.

Heres is my 1.5 hours in the middle of primetime, T2 SFR homeborder.
- Run straight out of spawn, die soon after due to running off a cliff
- Get joined by two buddies, so now we are a 3 man on an outmanned border, yay.
- Cap 2-3 camps and about twice the shrines for an hour, spend 50% of the time being lost. See no enemy from either server, or friends for that matter. Ootmanned went away long ago, probably just a border hop.
- finally find another 3 friends by Academy, decides to ram it.
- Spend about 8 minutes being molested by guards.
- Cap it, still not having seen a single enemy… And we just took SFRs border tower of all things.
- Finally, an enemy 10 man zerg! The 3 of us quickly dispatch it and realize it was a single Necro minion master holding some siege
- Cap our own border tower that had been capped since we got there, of course undefended.
- Roam for another half hour capping a few camps. At the end, we finally met 3 enemies and had a 10 seconds fight (they had an upscale).

I had more fun in 20 minutes on the old borders, at least roaming enemy borders gave a sense of danger. People wanted to protect them. Now… They have no purpose.

You just described why it sucks for roaming.
No one is there upgrading the bl since it’s on auto pilot, and since upgrades require no effort and the towers/keeps are completely disconnected, no one cares to defend.

This means the only way you’ll find a fight is if you just happen to run into each other.

Jim Hunter.6821:

You just described why it sucks for roaming.
No one is there upgrading the bl since it’s on auto pilot, and since upgrades require no effort and the towers/keeps are completely disconnected, no one cares to defend.

This means the only way you’ll find a fight is if you just happen to run into each other.

True, but you can still roam. The meaning of it is not always the explicit purpose to disrupt dollys… Sometimes I just run around. Most of the time I cap camps without caring of the strategical value.

But as I said, its boring. Yes, the meaning is diminished, so that means less players and less recaps, which in turn mean less to cap and slower gameplay for everyone. WvW would be 1000x more fun with connected towers keeps and X amount of dollys required per manually triggered upgrade, which would no doubt bring back players and give them work to do.

OP couldn’t be more wrong. Please ignore.

Svarty.8019:

OP couldn’t be more wrong. Please ignore.

How am I wrong?, please explain.

I can honestly say in HOD server the new boarderlands are dead and everyone is now in ebg if you can count everyone. Last night I noticed an Anet guy roaming with us in EBG and everyone telling him to roam the new bls and test it out to get out of ebg. (oh so sad). We only had 1 guild running in ebg, therefore i can confirm WVW IS DEAD.

You get the most powerful weapon in WvW by doing a PvE-collecting-quest! Wtf?

Enough said.

Dawdler.8521:

Jim Hunter.6821:

You just described why it sucks for roaming.
No one is there upgrading the bl since it’s on auto pilot, and since upgrades require no effort and the towers/keeps are completely disconnected, no one cares to defend.

This means the only way you’ll find a fight is if you just happen to run into each other.

True, but you can still roam. The meaning of it is not always the explicit purpose to disrupt dollys… Sometimes I just run around. Most of the time I cap camps without caring of the strategical value.

But as I said, its boring. Yes, the meaning is diminished, so that means less players and less recaps, which in turn mean less to cap and slower gameplay for everyone. WvW would be 1000x more fun with connected towers keeps and X amount of dollys required per manually triggered upgrade, which would no doubt bring back players and give them work to do.

That’s not roaming, that’s….. I don’t know….. exploring?
I mean that’s like saying you can find a ton of fights on the new bl……. you’ll be fighting PvE mobs or doors, but you’ll technically still be fighting.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Dawdler.8521:

Jim Hunter.6821:

You just described why it sucks for roaming.
No one is there upgrading the bl since it’s on auto pilot, and since upgrades require no effort and the towers/keeps are completely disconnected, no one cares to defend.

This means the only way you’ll find a fight is if you just happen to run into each other.

True, but you can still roam. The meaning of it is not always the explicit purpose to disrupt dollys… Sometimes I just run around. Most of the time I cap camps without caring of the strategical value.

But as I said, its boring. Yes, the meaning is diminished, so that means less players and less recaps, which in turn mean less to cap and slower gameplay for everyone. WvW would be 1000x more fun with connected towers keeps and X amount of dollys required per manually triggered upgrade, which would no doubt bring back players and give them work to do.

That’s not roaming, that’s….. I don’t know….. exploring?
I mean that’s like saying you can find a ton of fights on the new bl……. you’ll be fighting PvE mobs or doors, but you’ll technically still be fighting.

To be honest, “exploring” has always been 80% of my roaming… Its been like that on alpine too. Most people are afraid to fight unless they can 5v1 you for a certain kill, lol. There is no need to glorify roaming to high heavens, but yes it definetly does suffer with this new design since there is no reason for anyone, roamers or otherwise, to hold the map caps other than for PPT.

Even if I still can do it, its not going to be very fun in the long run, no. Especially not when I know that the only ones I will meet out there are explorers like me :p

It’s almost too late.

Those who are still playing WvW are, for a large part, the hardcore players; they’re the foundation of server communities. They care about PPT, scouting, sieging, defending, etc. They are the people who make WvW WvW and not EotM.

If these players quit out of frustration, then even if large populations from PvE return to WvW, all they’ll see is karma train.

Dawdler.8521:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Dawdler.8521:

Jim Hunter.6821:

You just described why it sucks for roaming.
No one is there upgrading the bl since it’s on auto pilot, and since upgrades require no effort and the towers/keeps are completely disconnected, no one cares to defend.

This means the only way you’ll find a fight is if you just happen to run into each other.

True, but you can still roam. The meaning of it is not always the explicit purpose to disrupt dollys… Sometimes I just run around. Most of the time I cap camps without caring of the strategical value.

But as I said, its boring. Yes, the meaning is diminished, so that means less players and less recaps, which in turn mean less to cap and slower gameplay for everyone. WvW would be 1000x more fun with connected towers keeps and X amount of dollys required per manually triggered upgrade, which would no doubt bring back players and give them work to do.

That’s not roaming, that’s….. I don’t know….. exploring?
I mean that’s like saying you can find a ton of fights on the new bl……. you’ll be fighting PvE mobs or doors, but you’ll technically still be fighting.

To be honest, “exploring” has always been 80% of my roaming… Its been like that on alpine too. Most people are afraid to fight unless they can 5v1 you for a certain kill, lol. There is no need to glorify roaming to high heavens, but yes it definetly does suffer with this new design since there is no reason for anyone, roamers or otherwise, to hold the map caps other than for PPT.

Even if I still can do it, its not going to be very fun in the long run, no. Especially not when I know that the only ones I will meet out there are explorers like me :p

The difference was you could force people to come fight or they would surrender the upgrades they invested hours into.
That’s why it is so important that upgrades need to be manually started and require supply. And that towers and keeps are within treb range of each other.

Lord Kuru.3685:

It’s almost too late.

Those who are still playing WvW are, for a large part, the hardcore players; they’re the foundation of server communities. They care about PPT, scouting, sieging, defending, etc. They are the people who make WvW WvW and not EotM.

If these players quit out of frustration, then even if large populations from PvE return to WvW, all they’ll see is karma train.

Honestly how many of those PvE players will stick around when there is no one there to tag for them?

It used to be that taking a waypoint or defending one meant something. Even without seasons, some degree of competitiveness and pride existed there. Now that’s all gone

Jim Hunter.6821:

Dawdler.8521:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Dawdler.8521:

Jim Hunter.6821:

You just described why it sucks for roaming.
No one is there upgrading the bl since it’s on auto pilot, and since upgrades require no effort and the towers/keeps are completely disconnected, no one cares to defend.

This means the only way you’ll find a fight is if you just happen to run into each other.

True, but you can still roam. The meaning of it is not always the explicit purpose to disrupt dollys… Sometimes I just run around. Most of the time I cap camps without caring of the strategical value.

But as I said, its boring. Yes, the meaning is diminished, so that means less players and less recaps, which in turn mean less to cap and slower gameplay for everyone. WvW would be 1000x more fun with connected towers keeps and X amount of dollys required per manually triggered upgrade, which would no doubt bring back players and give them work to do.

That’s not roaming, that’s….. I don’t know….. exploring?
I mean that’s like saying you can find a ton of fights on the new bl……. you’ll be fighting PvE mobs or doors, but you’ll technically still be fighting.

To be honest, “exploring” has always been 80% of my roaming… Its been like that on alpine too. Most people are afraid to fight unless they can 5v1 you for a certain kill, lol. There is no need to glorify roaming to high heavens, but yes it definetly does suffer with this new design since there is no reason for anyone, roamers or otherwise, to hold the map caps other than for PPT.

Even if I still can do it, its not going to be very fun in the long run, no. Especially not when I know that the only ones I will meet out there are explorers like me :p

The difference was you could force people to come fight or they would surrender the upgrades they invested hours into.
That’s why it is so important that upgrades need to be manually started and require supply. And that towers and keeps are within treb range of each other.

Those issues have nothing to do with the actual borderlands. That has to do with the new upgrade system.

If they gave you the old borderlands back, with the new upgrade and supply system, how would you justify calling the old borderlands better for roaming?

Towers and keeps were only marginally in treb range of each other; you could treb Bay from Briar but not the other way around. You could however treb both side towers from Garri but not get their trebs out. That can be fun, I admit that, but it’s usually only done when the trebbing server already outnumbers the other – so in the end it was “Garri is being trebbed, so we’re gonna lose it” and that isn’t much fun.
I love EB though, where most of the keeps/towers can be trebbed from an other objective. The only problematic case is Red Keep vs SM – I think that is too much.
I’m still trying to figure out the new borderlands and there’s some things I know I don’t like, f.e. that there is no direct way to “NC” – there should be as it’s the most important supply provider on the BL.
Also a lot of bugs are driving me insane, but that mostly on EB where our green Keep and Jerri is constantly contested because a NPC attacks the mobs outside – great! And no idea what is happening on the southern towers on the borderlands but it doesn’t make getting to know the new map easier.
Anyway: I’ve upgraded a lot in the past and at some point always stopped when it as useless anyway or if I found I was the only one upgrading. Without upgraded towers it’s very easy to “suppress” an opponent as it takes/took ages to get a tower up. That is again a problem for the outnumbered server. And it was really expensive – so losing something really hurt – at least me when I paid for it.
So, I don’t know if there has already been a constructive discussion as how to bring human interaction into this so it would be smart, but yet again can’t be used by trolls to keep “their own” server down. I loved the opportunities one had with the upgrades but also saw the negative aspects of non automated upgrades – so I’d love to hear other opinions about it.

Edit: Spelling

Bring back the old WvW maps or just take WvW out of the game completely. The new maps are just simply awful, un-fun and will kill this game.

I’ve been into the new border lands only twice since launch. And to be honest they seem the most PVP unfriendly design that anyone can possibly think of. For me it has now come down to getting my WvW fix on EB. And if that’s queued to hell and back, I just log off now.

It wouldn’t hurt to keep some element of automatic upgrade system in WvW – like a 3-hour hold upgrades walls/gates, and that’s the full extend of auto-upgrade – but the way it’s currently set up doesn’t really encourage any kind of defense or offensive strategy. Half the fun in WvW was choosing what to upgrade and where, or whether to save resources, etc. Maybe something else Anet could consider is the assault consequences that the Elder Scrolls Online WvW mode uses – where you have to repair any damage you did to the fortress/tower when you cap it. That might almost make auto-upgrades plausible.

Swift.1930:

It wouldn’t hurt to keep some element of automatic upgrade system in WvW – like a 3-hour hold upgrades walls/gates, and that’s the full extend of auto-upgrade – but the way it’s currently set up doesn’t really encourage any kind of defense or offensive strategy. Half the fun in WvW was choosing what to upgrade and where, or whether to save resources, etc. Maybe something else Anet could consider is the assault consequences that the Elder Scrolls Online WvW mode uses – where you have to repair any damage you did to the fortress/tower when you cap it. That might almost make auto-upgrades plausible.

But… why? I mean seriously, why would we ever need autoupgrades, as opposed to talking to some dude in the keep and say “Yo lord, upgrade walls and doors will ya” and the lord respond “Yep that will be 30 dollys of supply thanks”. There is absolutely no reason to skip this player involvement. The cost involved has always been awfull, but thats another thing. Of course it should always have been free.

Personally I would rather see towers/keeps work on per dolly upgrade progress and reserve the “autoupgrade” to how long a guild holds a keep. Guild held it for 3 hours? Congrats, guards now carry your guild banner and have 30% more HP. Something that doesnt change the fundamental way keeps, towers and camps are connected and why they are being fought over.

Swift.1930:

Half the fun in WvW was choosing what to upgrade and where, or whether to save resources, etc.

Yeah… not so much fun for me, though… “Yo guys, why does our keep have reinforced walls, a second worker, cannons, mortars, a waypoint, merchants, additional guards but no reinforced gates?” – “It’s more fun that way haha.”
(and that over a 3 months period)

You can keep the basic upgrade, only T1/T2/T3.
But at least that need human intervention..
And I prefer the fact that you need to use your supply to build the upgrade… But if Anet don’t want to bring that back, make at least that the keep need x amount of doly to make the upgrade.
And for me we really need back the WP on all keep, but only at T3 (same for rampart). And remove the south WP.
Finally remove the central event and I think that WvW could restart to live…

Honestly the map is big, and more vertical. But with time you learn it, and when you earn the keep you have a lot of shortcut. The map itself is not the worse thing… As say before I prefer the new map with some change on upgrade management, that the old map with the new upgrade.

Those few change can probably be make without too much work and will be more interesting to play…. At least I would like to see 1 dev speak about that.
Will they look at those change ? Or should we just stop playing the game because they won’t change anything ?

Autoupgrades are here to stay. Anet certainly doesn’t want to put in the manpower effort required to deal with supply/upgrade trolls.

Sich.7103:

You can keep the basic upgrade, only T1/T2/T3.

That was a perfectly acceptable compromise to stop upgrade trolling, yes, along with the separating keep and player supply to help against supply trolling (I say help, you can still build 20 rams heh). But the autoupgrade timers, ugh… 1 step forward, 50 steps back and falling off a cliff.

Edit for the above: they havent dealt with it for 3 years and this already fixes most of it without autoupgrading

Dont forget that this maps are designed to long term, when guilds will have tactics and upgrades. all what they (we) need to do is shut down that idiot laser event (that, beside the fact it is perfectly irrelevent, made all map lagy and crash …).

Keeps and towers might auto upgrade, but please only with suplys. So per dolly count. If there are less camp´s or more dolly´s killed keeps upgrade slower or never if there are no suplys. Also no one needs the laser.
Map size feels to large but time will tell that.

Angelyne.2936:

Dont forget that this maps are designed to long term, when guilds will have tactics and upgrades. all what they (we) need to do is shut down that idiot laser event (that, beside the fact it is perfectly irrelevent, made all map lagy and crash …).

Yes please. Get rid of the giant lasers and I’m happy with the map.

It’s just a learning curve to get used to the rest of it. It’s actually quite fun once you do.

I agree! Anet needs to start listening to the WvW community about what they want. Not do the opposite and waste 3 years on a map that almost everyone hates.

On my server we have only ques to EB, and anet even made that map worse to!

Timelord.8190:

I agree! Anet needs to start listening to the WvW community about what they want. Not do the opposite and waste 3 years on a map that almost everyone hates.

On my server we have only ques to EB, and anet even made that map worse to!

What did they do to make that map worse? You referring to the auto-updates?

misterman.1530:

Timelord.8190:

I agree! Anet needs to start listening to the WvW community about what they want. Not do the opposite and waste 3 years on a map that almost everyone hates.

On my server we have only ques to EB, and anet even made that map worse to!

What did they do to make that map worse? You referring to the auto-updates?

I think it is because people cant farm easily the bl’s like before, take keep or tower in a minute was hard already for some, because here fast and easy is called effort…

The bl’s were nothing more than a karma train map with the old map.

IF there is a problem ill say it is the wvw ppt model by towers… way to basic, if Anet wants to mantain this they should add more stuff to wvw, but many just want to gather bigger blob and spam 1 to win (as they call this good fight).

Atm is not a WvW map problem is a player base problem, and im also from a small server.

Advice Team work and less ego solo build.

On my server (Piken) I see a lot more of KT that before…. Really a lot more….
We always try to defend our BL before, but now… The map is just empty, and as defender I really don’t care to defend those big thing… All run alone…. no WP…. Really no pleasure to defend now…

misterman.1530:

Timelord.8190:

I agree! Anet needs to start listening to the WvW community about what they want. Not do the opposite and waste 3 years on a map that almost everyone hates.

On my server we have only ques to EB, and anet even made that map worse to!

What did they do to make that map worse? You referring to the auto-updates?

Yes, the auto upgrade, and the fact that it doesen’t require any supply.

WvW is already dead, and ANET is too busy adding outfits to the AH to fix it.

Timelord.8190:

misterman.1530:

Timelord.8190:

I agree! Anet needs to start listening to the WvW community about what they want. Not do the opposite and waste 3 years on a map that almost everyone hates.

On my server we have only ques to EB, and anet even made that map worse to!

What did they do to make that map worse? You referring to the auto-updates?

Yes, the auto upgrade, and the fact that it doesen’t require any supply.

…
sandstorms, earthwalls, jumping pads – annoying
oasis aka deathstar event – hilarious
shrines – pointless
barricades – insolence
+5 supply upgrade one of the last guild upgrades – seriously?

coming up next:
invisible-buff guild upgrade – insane
zeppelin air attack – facepalm

overall map design is overloaded and distracting

and so on and on…

Not seeing the rush back to wvw predicted by the fanboys after people got their masteries and elites (saw one guy at mastery 138 today..really?).

Four of us (thanks LOVE guys) meandered around EB capping towers and even enemy keep, and spotted a grand total of 4 enemies in the hour I was on. I did go for a run around the BL but after spotting no enemy for 15 minutes swapped to EB.

I don’t think guilds are that interested in the new BL maps- it’s just not much fun trying to play over the entire map as as soon as one guild wipes it takes forever to get back and defend anything or form up and attack that people just drop out.

Auto upgrades and free waypoints need to go more than the map does

even at the deadest times, we’d have a few people on our home bl and corner of ebg capping camps, scouting, making sure siege was refreshed, etc. Sure, sometimes there was nobody there and a tier 3 keep got 100% pvd’d, but that was usually not the case.

Now? Nobody cares. PPT was always meaningless but before we could delude ourselves and have some fun defending pointless structures, but anet completely killed that illusion. The maps now exist to ktrain on only, and nobody even cares to do that.

You all seem to be on perfect servers who always upgraded everything and defended every T3 structure. In my experience it was always a few who cared for the defending side, so I’m kind of baffled that that many people complain about auto upgrades.
Also defending had become more and more pointless before Hot, due to power creep, range increases, camera changes, golem mastery and so on. That has becomen better so maybe with the increased defense a paid manual upgrade would work. Maybe some of these changes should have been gradually to see how things work out.

they could have just made the upgrades free to start instead of completely gutting the entire concept