Guild Wars 2

a better approach for keep upgrades would be:

Upgrade for free is fine or by using honor badges for instance (increase amount of cap reward/drop rate ofc), but not automatically!
Let the wvw player decide if, when and what they want to upgrade and in which order.

Use old supply mechanic to let the wvw players manage the supply income/output.

Of course, the seemingly radical premise of this thread is entirely correct. However, it comes at an awkward timing. The management and the devs involved, at the sight of the abysmal participation numbers, are still in the “players are just conservative. They will eventually adapt and learn to like it”-stage. Thus they are fully resistant to any of our informed implorations to come to reason–they wear an iron armour. Like a child that wont listen to a parent telling him to not touch the hot cooker plate, they have to make the experience themselves. In this case, that means at least 2-3 months of consistently low Deserted Borderlands numbers. Only after slowly coming to that realisation will they (both consciously and unconsciously) open up and become receptive to feedback like OP’s or general community feedback.

Blix.8021:

they could have just made the upgrades free to start instead of completely gutting the entire concept

Here’s a story:
I’ve been on a server with a really huge guild, they were about 1/3 or even half of the wvw population we had.
One day they left. And some guy who was in that guild stayed behind and made us responsible for them leaving so he tried to hurt us in whatever way he could and what is better for that than buying additional guards while we’re being attacked (by said guild who transferred to the enemy server mid matchup).

I’m surprised how many people still think anyone from Anet will do anything to help out WvW. They haven’t made a good change that I can remember since they’ve released GW2 in 2012. Good luck getting any sort of replies from them, and if a legendary reply does happen be ready for a solid “We’re working on it”.

That being said, if you’re new to WvW, refer to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezVy-zLUq6g

Insane Pancakez.9182:

I’m surprised how many people still think anyone from Anet will do anything to help out WvW. They haven’t made a good change that I can remember since they’ve released GW2 in 2012. Good luck getting any sort of replies from them, and if a legendary reply does happen be ready for a solid “We’re working on it”.

That being said, if you’re new to WvW, refer to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezVy-zLUq6g

You appear to confuse your subjective opinion with that of actual objective fact. They have mad a vast amount of positive changes and improvements.

We are seeing 20 man queues on the BLs that everyone is swearing do not have queues.
http://imgur.com/cdF7q2n

coglin.1867:

Insane Pancakez.9182:

I’m surprised how many people still think anyone from Anet will do anything to help out WvW. They haven’t made a good change that I can remember since they’ve released GW2 in 2012. Good luck getting any sort of replies from them, and if a legendary reply does happen be ready for a solid “We’re working on it”.

That being said, if you’re new to WvW, refer to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezVy-zLUq6g

You appear to confuse your subjective opinion with that of actual objective fact. They have mad a vast amount of positive changes and improvements.

We are seeing 20 man queues on the BLs that everyone is swearing do not have queues.
http://imgur.com/cdF7q2n

Not on “the BLs” but on “a BL”. That is because there was probably a guild event on that particular BL or something.

Insane Pancakez.9182:

I’m surprised how many people still think anyone from Anet will do anything to help out WvW. They haven’t made a good change that I can remember since they’ve released GW2 in 2012. Good luck getting any sort of replies from them, and if a legendary reply does happen be ready for a solid “We’re working on it”.

That being said, if you’re new to WvW, refer to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezVy-zLUq6g

Yes they neglected wvw for a very long time – but we were good during that time – the npcs and mobs were harder than everywhere else in the game, the condis hit harder, but it worked for us. Then there was the “adopt a dev” “event” and things started to get worse, not neccessarily because of that but it was also a factor. Back when the first changes to wvw were announced no one talked about roamers or small havoc groups – it seemed as if they didn’t exist. The new maps are “roamer friendly” though, so at some point someone listened.
I’m not the biggest fan of a lot of anet’s choices but I’ve been told I’m very fair, so to be fair: The new borderland is a lot like a lot of people on the forums requested.
But the structure of that map isn’t the only thing that’s “wrong” with wvw/this map right now – we need balance overall and that will take time. Everything will become easier when defense and offense have equal chances or will even be able to outskill each other (I know that there are a few guilds out there who still can do that).
so to me a lot of the complaints right now aren’t that thought through – but alas, maybe it’s me.

If you were going for aesthetically pleasing you knocked it our of the ballpark; it is gorgeous.

However you fail to realize the most aesthetically pleasing sight to a WvW player is your enemy laying dead around you in a (more or less) fair and even fight; you know the skill thing you keep talking about. The new borderland maps are as beautiful as they are confusing, that along with the PvE elements make it quite detestable to the average WvW player.

If your intention was to split up the zergs then congratulations, there are no more zergs there; and very few roamers either. If you want to have players enjoy WvW again, I would suggest taking away 80% of the pve (still need the lords etc) and removing some of the defenders “bonuses”. Immune from fall damage, lava and invisibility might sound good on paper, but it just makes nobody want to ever attempt a siege.

As a scenario I put this to you:

You and your small guild of say 20 try to bust down the doors of a keep, everything is going fine until you are all dead. What hit you, you may ask. Well the 20 man invisible blob from the earth side. This requires ZERO skill and as such any good fighting guild will avoid it like the plague. Cheesy mechanics are not what I want, and I am sure I am not alone in this due to the emptyness of the BL’s.

Edit: I know this post sounds passionate, it is intended to be. WvW was my life for the better part of three years and now it is either run in a zerg in ebg or get run over by one. This alone makes me one sad (soon to be X) WvW player.

I have to say I have been really trying to be positive with the new borderland, but I’m running out of steam. Yes, I’m sure it’d be all great if it was full of players all bashing each other over every objective and flocking to the middle for a grand cage match over the “dino-poop-core-thingy-makes-laser” but, as it stands sadly, that is not the case. With server populations they way they are, it is impossible.

The new BL is too big and too full of silly unnecessary jump-through-hoops mechanics. Nobody wants to “Tag Up” to lead their PuG group through an obstacle course just to attack a keep or fight another equally-laden PuG group. It’s too much busy work.

Some PvE in WvW is fine but having to dance around it just to have a battle is, well, boring.

Good points both, Trajan and Tommyknocker.

its not too bad. we have fallout 4 to play

ANET lives and dies by its metrics. They know that fewer people are playing WvW since the update. I’m sure the guy in charge of WvW is looking for any excuse possible right now.

ANET has to do something and quick. Eventually the excuses will run out.

style.6173:

ANET lives and dies by its metrics. They know that fewer people are playing WvW since the update. I’m sure the guy in charge of WvW is looking for any excuse possible right now.

ANET has to do something and quick. Eventually the excuses will run out.

There’s a guy in charge of WvW?

Here’s a thought.
But perhaps since the new borderlands require HoT, a majority of HoT players are still in PvE, exploring, leveling masteries, etc.

While I am not saying the new maps are perfect, but before jumping off the bridge because “WvW is officially dead”, maybe consider that WvW in general is in a slump because of the excitement over HoT. I know I’ve barely ventured into WvW, and then just to peek at the new maps. I haven’t done any PvP either (and was doing that nearly exclusively for awhile).

But then of course that would be reasonable…nevermind….

“WvW is dead!!!! Anet hates WvW!! GG!!!!”

pdavis.8031:

Here’s a thought.
But perhaps since the new borderlands require HoT, a majority of HoT players are still in PvE, exploring, leveling masteries, etc.

Actually…. you don’t need HoT to play on the new borderlands maps.

They are horrible for WvW are the reason why they are empty and EBG is always full.

Tricare.2946:

pdavis.8031:

Here’s a thought.
But perhaps since the new borderlands require HoT, a majority of HoT players are still in PvE, exploring, leveling masteries, etc.

Actually…. you don’t need HoT to play on the new borderlands maps.

They are horrible for WvW are the reason why they are empty and EBG is always full.

Really? I was under the impression that HoT was needed for the new maps…oh well…

But either way, I am sure there is a more reasonable explanation for the lack of people in the new maps, other then they are THAT terrible. But thats just me…

pdavis.8031:

Tricare.2946:

pdavis.8031:

Here’s a thought.
But perhaps since the new borderlands require HoT, a majority of HoT players are still in PvE, exploring, leveling masteries, etc.

Actually…. you don’t need HoT to play on the new borderlands maps.

They are horrible for WvW are the reason why they are empty and EBG is always full.

Really? I was under the impression that HoT was needed for the new maps…oh well…

But either way, I am sure there is a more reasonable explanation for the lack of people in the new maps, other then they are THAT terrible. But thats just me…

Go play on the maps. Come back when you do.

50+ men queue in EU t1 on EBG
new borders are empty.

The new BL need to go. ASAP. People are dropping like flies. In the ASTC TS the other day, half the guild members there were not playing GW2, but instead playing different games. And the number of people in our server’s TS overall has drastically diminished. If this isn’t fixed soon, entire guilds will be finding new games to populate.

Sko.5048:

The new BL need to go. ASAP. People are dropping like flies. In the ASTC TS the other day, half the guild members there were not playing GW2, but instead playing different games. And the number of people in our server’s TS overall has drastically diminished. If this isn’t fixed soon, entire guilds will be finding new games to populate.

Granted, my guild is PvX and most don’t care about WvW, but our TS has increased in activity since HoT.

However, WvW interest is at an all-time low in my guild. Nobody wants to do WvW in my guild. Took 40 minutes to get 5 people together to do a WvW guild mission in my 500 man guild. Kind of ridiculous.

Sko.5048:

The new BL need to go. ASAP. People are dropping like flies. In the ASTC TS the other day, half the guild members there were not playing GW2, but instead playing different games. And the number of people in our server’s TS overall has drastically diminished. If this isn’t fixed soon, entire guilds will be finding new games to populate.

I still do not think its the new bl that are realy doing it even eb pop is falling (though the pop in wvw over all was falling for some time) the “pve” wvw players are doing pve and soon raids are going to be out for them to run they have there end game content that they wanted. So they will no longer be lemmings in wvw to simply mow over any more because the pve pop will no longer try to make wvw into an end game pve event.

RvR has a life span some longer then others and if you can push the fights much longer then wining for your world at least having that type of mind set. I am not saying wvw is dead it just much less about ppt and more about fights during the “right times” and less about out right wining or mowing over ppl who are not there for real pvp.

I suggest tun to fights for wvw there a lot of open spaces in the new BL to get some realy good gvg or blob vs blob going on your just not going to see ppl fight as much over objectives.

As for new games there realy not much out there that is RvR game type at least for a year + at this point even then there are major question about pure rvr games vs mixed mmorpgs and how truly viable they are for both keeping them self alive and keeping them self from becoming pve that happens to be in a rvr game.

Jski.6180:

Sko.5048:

The new BL need to go. ASAP. People are dropping like flies. In the ASTC TS the other day, half the guild members there were not playing GW2, but instead playing different games. And the number of people in our server’s TS overall has drastically diminished. If this isn’t fixed soon, entire guilds will be finding new games to populate.

I still do not think its the new bl that are realy doing it even eb pop is falling (though the pop in wvw over all was falling for some time) the “pve” wvw players are doing pve and soon raids are going to be out for them to run they have there end game content that they wanted.

They are ?

Over on the HOT forums, the constant complaint everywhere is about how empty the new Maguuma maps have become…

I dare Anet to make bring back the old alpine map for one week. Maybe just one week for one BL, and keep the desert map on the other two BL’s. I’m certain that everyone would flood back for the alpine map. Of course anet will never do that because that would be proof that most people dislike their precious desert BL and some poor developers will get their feelings hurt.

the old map with the new mechanic will be the same problem…. It’s not only the map… It’s all around…

Sich.7103:

the old map with the new mechanic will be the same problem…. It’s not only the map… It’s all around…

How so?

I have seen no real evidence of any issue with the maps that would cause this, other then players feeding on one another fear and refusal to accept something new.

The maps are equivalent size.

They added varying aspects to each keep as was overwhelmingly demanded.

They changed the upgrade system to prevent the excessive supply trolls, as was a very popularly demanded.

They added an important event in the middle to draw all 3 sides into 3 way battles away from keeps.

They made it more difficult to turtle down and treb keeps from inside the safety of another keep, that was also strongly demanded to have done. Meaning you have to expose yourself more in order to attack and start a siege against another keep.

All changes that satiated the overwhelming demands of the public here on the forums.

coglin.1867:

The maps are equivalent size.

lol… Just lol… Just open your eyes… Your love for Anet and this new map is too strong.
This map is more bigger and it’s a real maze. And don’t talk to me about the shortcut. I know those path.

coglin.1867:

They added varying aspects to each keep as was overwhelmingly demanded.

What ? tell me ? Stupid pve stuff outside the keep who are impossible to hold, then if the ennemy siege the keep you will loose all the buff in 2min…
And yes, waouw, immunity in fire, kitten , this is awesome… Or yeah stupid wind who blow the ennemy from stupid cliff… You die more from the environement that from the other players…
Or what else, let me guess…. Keep so big that it’s a pain to defend ? With maze inside the keep….
Or wait, another beautifull thing… Remove the WP… Yes… That’s very good, I could just not imagine how this is beautifull…
What should we add ? Oh yes, the automatic WP on rampart at T0…. Or just how to don’t care to loose the keep because you just have to flip it back to recover the WP…

All those thing are amazing and increase all the fun I had as scout playing at off peak time inside the keep…

Just take hills… Defending hills you hold the high ground… You are not in middle of big hills and cliff… The keep was easy to navigate inside… Small, compact… That’s a good keep. Not that ugly underground thing or the other thing in middle of the clif… You don’t even know where the keep start…

coglin.1867:

They changed the upgrade system to prevent the excessive supply trolls, as was a very popularly demanded.

With this the problem are the troll !! Not the system, just ban the troll, hide upgrade ability behind mastery, problem solved… And most of the problem with that are from people who doing mistake… They want to help, but to affraid to ask and make mistake… Most of the time when you take time to explain why they have made a mistake they won’t start again, and will ask for the next time… To finaly manage alone to do the good thing… Destroying all the supply chain and the value of the supply just to prevent what ? 2 troll in the week (on Piken) ? Seriously ? Give tools to ban those people, problem solved.

coglin.1867:

They added an important event in the middle to draw all 3 sides into 3 way battles away from keeps.

You call that an important event ? What did you smoke ? Seriously ? This event is a true disaster…. First of all lag… Then during off peak time now you just have the ennemy zerg join the map when the event start… They rush the event to after that just KT all your map.. It’s too much powerfull, ridiculous and have nothing to do on a wvw map… This event is a fail, a big fail and must be removed… When this event start I just want to log out and uninstall the game… This is a bad joke, like the golem week…. A real bad joke…

coglin.1867:

They made it more difficult to turtle down and treb keeps from inside the safety of another keep, that was also strongly demanded to have done. Meaning you have to expose yourself more in order to attack and start a siege against another keep.

It was never possible to treb keep from another keep (or maybe bay from garri, but this was change). But yes you can treb keep from tower… This is why it was so important to defend your tower ! The keep where important because you had the WP inside, to give a big advantage to your team. But this advantage was earn with multiple hours of work from scout / roaming guy… Then you had to hold those tower to avoid the ennemy to treb you.. This give value to tower ! Now the tower are just useless… It’s change nothing if you control the tower or not…. Oh yes, it’s change the PPT…. great…
But the PPT should be the consequence not the main goal. You have more PPT because you defend your stuff, because your stuff have value (WP, tactical position). You should not have PPT because it’s the only thing who have value on the map…

coglin.1867:

All changes that satiated the overwhelming demands of the public here on the forums.

Before HoT I say on this forum that the automatic upgrade will kill the off peak time and the scout job… Close to 3 week after hot is out it’s seem to be true. And it’s not because you love those change that we see that in game. The BL are EMPTY ! No one care to defend, the BL is just a new KT because no one want to play on this map, and no one care to defend because all thing are automatic / free and useless !

I loved to play WvW as some RTS… Building stuff because it give you tactical advantage (WP inside the keep, cover from tower over keep). To upgrade the stuff you have to manage your ressources (supply).
Now the keep and the tower are useless, they have no value. Yeah except PPT. But as I say, PPT should be the consequence, not the only reason to hold stuff.
Before you can run to the supply camp in front of the ennemy zerg, and start upgrade to deny supply for the ennemy group. Now it’s over… Oh yes, you have the new upgrade who can destroy all supply in the camp… But this is another automatic thing… Before you needed human, players to do that, now it’s all scripted. And you can activate this upgrade from everywhere on the map, you don’t even need to walk to the camp…
Before you will defend your upgraded camp because you had the double supply for the doly, this was very important for your keep. Because the supply was the real blood for your map. Now who care to defend the south supply camp ? It’s too far, the doly to the keep don’t work (yes, bugged since the begining). And now the doly deliver the same supply at T0 or T3…. Then well, don’t care, the next doly will have the same supply that the one before we loose the camp… And upgrade don’t need supply, most of the time keep are full with supply because no one care to build siege…
Before it was a real challenge to siege and upgrade stuff. This need team work, people who anticipate. To protect your T3 + WP at prime time it was a work for all the day. To build slowly all the siege you need. Now you just wait to see the ennemy to start something. And if you loose it… Bah.. just take it back later… The keep have no value… Oh yes, the PPT value…. But the PPT is the same at T0 and T3… Then no one care…

Oh and the south camp… Before this camp deliver supply to the tower, and to the keep… This is over…. Another reason to don’t care about this camp… He only deliver supply to the south tower… But those tower are useless, they don’t protect your keep… They are to far from Rampart, then you have to walk a long time to join the fight.. This is not funny…. You just let the ennemy take your stuff and take it back later with your zerg..

This map is made for the prime time only guild, who just join the map to run in circle, searching some fight, playing for 1 or 2 hours and then log out. Casual or fight guild. But the map is not made for people slowly building their homeland during the day. This map killed the scout job, killed the roaming…. To make people protecting stuff against roamer you must have a reason to defend… But there is no more reason to defend… Then no one counter the roamer… Then the roamer have no fight… They only have PVE…

If you can’t understand all those thing then there is nothing I can do for you. It’s my opinion. You have another. And you have a big chance, Anet is with you not with me, and not with roamer or scout. I speak about real scout, who try to build something with teamwork, and patience and being a real part of the upgrade… Not people just siting in the tower waiting for the clock and using the overflowing supply inside the structures… Just sitting here waiting that all the automatic stuff run alone.

And don’t worry, I have already leave the game. This game is not the WvW I have loved. This is not a game that I want to play. I’m just here because I hope that Anet will change something. But I know anet, and I know that they will not do anything.

Sich.7103:

the old map with the new mechanic will be the same problem…. It’s not only the map… It’s all around…

True. WvW will still be in a bad state, but at least it’ll less so with the new map deleted.

coglin.1867:

The maps are equivalent size.

You keep saying that but it doesnt make it true.
If you put the main combat area (ie below citadel) of alpine on top of desert border, you will see just how much narrower and more compact alpine is.

Dawdler.8521:

coglin.1867:

The maps are equivalent size.

You keep saying that but it doesnt make it true.
If you put the main combat area (ie below citadel) of alpine on top of desert border, you will see just how much narrower and more compact alpine is.

No, but the fact that multiple posters have posted videos with time comparisons side by side to their videos of the old maps to prove the time it takes to traverse that map is literally with in seconds of each other.

And why does the photo you provided show some od the supply camps and spawn areas cropped our, while not doing the same for the new maps? That sure appears shady and dishonest in my opinion.

coglin.1867:

Dawdler.8521:

coglin.1867:

The maps are equivalent size.

You keep saying that but it doesnt make it true.
If you put the main combat area (ie below citadel) of alpine on top of desert border, you will see just how much narrower and more compact alpine is.

No, but the fact that multiple posters have posted videos with time comparisons side by side to their videos of the old maps to prove the time it takes to traverse that map is literally with in seconds of each other.

And why does the photo you provided show some od the supply camps and spawn areas cropped our, while not doing the same for the new maps? That sure appears shady and dishonest in my opinion.

Looking at that comparison and extrapolating the cropped areas the maps are probably not significantly different north south but the new maps are significantly wider which is what my anecdotal experience is. If you have links that show different please post them.

The north south distance is also magnified by the fact that NE and NW towers are significantly further north than in the AB which is 1 of the issues that been mentioned because they are essentially of no strategic importance whatsoever except as PPT vehicles. Distances are also exacerbated by the complexity of the paths which means travel takes longer.

coglin.1867:

The maps are equivalent size.

They added varying aspects to each keep as was overwhelmingly demanded.

They changed the upgrade system to prevent the excessive supply trolls, as was a very popularly demanded.

They added an important event in the middle to draw all 3 sides into 3 way battles away from keeps.

They made it more difficult to turtle down and treb keeps from inside the safety of another keep, that was also strongly demanded to have done. Meaning you have to expose yourself more in order to attack and start a siege against another keep.

All changes that satiated the overwhelming demands of the public here on the forums.

Map size is already being discussed.

Issues with the upgrade system are being identified after some experience. The fact that it may have been changed originally as a response to supply trolls is almost irrelevant now.

Never seen a 3 way battle for the event because the population is not large enough in my tz.

Keeps were never able to be trebbed from other keeps after they stopped bay being able to be trebbed from garri.

Lastly just because changes were demanded doesn’t mean the solution is the right one or effective.

I think the simplest solution to reviving WvW from the dead is to simply force a server to play all borderlands. This can be done by making PPT more important by just rewarding heavily the winning server at the end of the week.

Suggestion

I may be alone in this, and I could see some backlash to Anet for being “lazy”, but I would much preferred keeping it reskin simple.

Reskin the borderlands with themes from Tyria: Kryta, Maguuma Jungle, Shiverpeak, and Ascalon. Add corresponding features such as architecture, terrain, races, beasts, etc…and call it good.

Add mastery/spvp reward tracks, and I would be one happy camper.

i remeber a friend of mine and his guild had a great layout about how a new map should have looked like and they did bring some of these ideas to the forums way back. its pretty sad that the people behind this new map took 0 % from our suggestions and also seemed to not know what wvw is all about.

a wvw player would know that invisible zergs are terrible, remember culling? u know a anet the thing that took u 1 year to fix? yeah that culling….and we were all so happy when culling was gone and now u seem to have forgotten and bring back invisible zergs……. 0.o

i did like the idea of mastery, but again only looks great on paper….

u did bring out eotm and we all hated it and the feedback was very very clear and the tendency that noone ever defends in eotm aswell. did u listen anet? no i made a map even more complex and all u seemed to have in mind is breaking up zergs which is athe wrong way as i dont even wanna bother running down south to defend…. and wvw was and always will be a gamemode with zergs. i run in a zergbusting group around and i love fighting the blobs!
its all gone!

List of changes that I like

(1) The new sentry detection system is great. It mades sentry more useful and allows players to not lose time going where the ennemy is not (it goes well with point 2). This new sentry was also suposed to kill yaks and get people to go flip the sentries… sadly… yaks are useless so on that part it failed to hit the mark.

(2) The map calls when a structure is taken by X server is also great. It might only be a solo roamer, but it will still improve the information network. This combined with a sentry that scouted a group of players earlier allows you to walk directly to where you think the group will be in the next few seconds.

(3) I like the fact that lord HP scales up with the number of players. It gives people a better response time to gather enough folks to get a good fight instead of getting structures flipped without a good brawl in the lord room.

Here is a list of things that needs a little tweak before being things that I would like.

(1) Auto upgrades seems awesome on paper… But I think simply making it so upgrades are forced to be in a specific order would of solved the troll problem. Make it so yaks count! Yaks are useless now. Also, waypoint on T0 keep makes WvW lose its touch. I remember when we did map calls on every map to get our people to defend our T3 keep with a waypoint. Those were fun fights in the lord room. Now? Keep flips and it doesn’t matter since we will grab it back while gaining access to the only upgrade which truly did matters as a welcome gift. Also, removing Bay and Hills waypoint on the new map just bring less fights (less incentive to actually go defend it since it will never get a waypoint).

(2) The new event in the Desert bordeland map. This event seems great and all. But I still think that a big area with a cap point could of been a better choice than to kill those PVE monsters. Imagine a large cap where there is a timer ticking down for every second your server control the point. I feel like it would be more appropriate for a players vs players environnement. King of the hills kind of tournament would of been amazing I think. Atleast the event as it is is not so fun, it’s just that those Dinos don’t really belong to WvW if you ask me (my opinion, sorry if some people love those Dinos XD). A king of the hill tournament could of been one big platform or up to 3 big platform where each platform control gives you -1 second on the total timer. Once it reachs 0 the canon is yours.

Things that I truly do not like

(1) The non players automated things in the Desert borderland map. I’m talking about those slow turrets, those flame turrets, those winds turrets and those earth walls. They are annoying more than anything. As to replace those things, I would simply take them off and get the blessing of the element when near that area (no more need to actually go and click the shrine to get the move speed boost). I would also take back the combat boost that those elemental buffs gives, environement should not give such a potent stats boost which vary depending on the region you are playing on (same with the imune to burning in fire keep). Also, invisible zergs is simply a bad concept, but I got no idea how to replace that buff without imbalacing the fights (need help finding a solution so I can edit that part later on).Finally, since earth keep have 2 automated things, (turrets and walls). I would simply give them a detector (like a sentry would if it spotted an ennemy) all over the keep so it can detect any hiding ennemies inside that keep and in the close periphery of that keep.

(2) Fortified gate… Those are new and they are slow to take down. Also guild catapults got nerfed to the ground so breaking a fortified wall takes an army or will simply take forever if you are a roaming squad. But gate is now also fortified… So it just means more time raming or catapulting those objectives…which in the end me and my roaming friends just leave them be since it’s too much of a chore.

(3) The pathing of the map seems to be worse than what Alpine borderland offered. Zigzaging and going up and down makes the map that is slightly larger to feel like walking from point A to point B to take much more time than what it used to be on Alpine borderland. Or atleast it feels less straightfoward and more about dodging the ennemy than to engage them. Those keeps are just so vast with so many pathway. Keeping it simple is not always a bad thing.

(4) Reset on saturday morning… Bring back friday night reset. This night was crazy, even more than saturday night reset. Get back from work, install yourself and play with your friends on a friday night was amazing.
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Basically, I think a tweaked Alpine would be better. Alpine had its flaws, but people still loved that map after 3 years (sure they asked some fix there and there, but a total revamp of the map doesn’t seem to get us to a better place, fixed some problems only to make new ones arise).

morrolan.9608:

Keeps were never able to be trebbed from other keeps after they stopped bay being able to be trebbed from garri.

When I say keeps, I was refering to towers as well. Anywhere is which players could safely treb from behind a secure wall, that could be highly sieged.

As well, you could treb towers from the spawn area and be completely untouchable.

Anyone else feel like the HoT and the huge loss of WvW player base is something like DaOC when they released ToA and that lost a lot of RvR players

Its feels like a coincidence between HoT and ToA. Also given that Anet hired employers from DaOC

DaOC never recovered after losing so many players.

Phantom.5389:

List of changes that I like

(1) The new sentry detection system is great. It mades sentry more useful and allows players to not lose time going where the ennemy is not (it goes well with point 2). This new sentry was also suposed to kill yaks and get people to go flip the sentries… sadly… yaks are useless so on that part it failed to hit the mark.

(2) The map calls when a structure is taken by X server is also great. It might only be a solo roamer, but it will still improve the information network. This combined with a sentry that scouted a group of players earlier allows you to walk directly to where you think the group will be in the next few seconds.

(3) I like the fact that lord HP scales up with the number of players. It gives people a better response time to gather enough folks to get a good fight instead of getting structures flipped without a good brawl in the lord room.

Here is a list of things that needs a little tweak before being things that I would like.

(1) Auto upgrades seems awesome on paper… But I think simply making it so upgrades are forced to be in a specific order would of solved the troll problem. Make it so yaks count! Yaks are useless now. Also, waypoint on T0 keep makes WvW lose its touch. I remember when we did map calls on every map to get our people to defend our T3 keep with a waypoint. Those were fun fights in the lord room. Now? Keep flips and it doesn’t matter since we will grab it back while gaining access to the only upgrade which truly did matters as a welcome gift. Also, removing Bay and Hills waypoint on the new map just bring less fights (less incentive to actually go defend it since it will never get a waypoint).

(2) The new event in the Desert bordeland map. This event seems great and all. But I still think that a big area with a cap point could of been a better choice than to kill those PVE monsters. Imagine a large cap where there is a timer ticking down for every second your server control the point. I feel like it would be more appropriate for a players vs players environnement. King of the hills kind of tournament would of been amazing I think. Atleast the event as it is is not so fun, it’s just that those Dinos don’t really belong to WvW if you ask me (my opinion, sorry if some people love those Dinos XD). A king of the hill tournament could of been one big platform or up to 3 big platform where each platform control gives you -1 second on the total timer. Once it reachs 0 the canon is yours.

Things that I truly do not like

(1) The non players automated things in the Desert borderland map. I’m talking about those slow turrets, those flame turrets, those winds turrets and those earth walls. They are annoying more than anything. As to replace those things, I would simply take them off and get the blessing of the element when near that area (no more need to actually go and click the shrine to get the move speed boost). I would also take back the combat boost that those elemental buffs gives, environement should not give such a potent stats boost which vary depending on the region you are playing on (same with the imune to burning in fire keep). Also, invisible zergs is simply a bad concept, but I got no idea how to replace that buff without imbalacing the fights (need help finding a solution so I can edit that part later on).Finally, since earth keep have 2 automated things, (turrets and walls). I would simply give them a detector (like a sentry would if it spotted an ennemy) all over the keep so it can detect any hiding ennemies inside that keep and in the close periphery of that keep.

(2) Fortified gate… Those are new and they are slow to take down. Also guild catapults got nerfed to the ground so breaking a fortified wall takes an army or will simply take forever if you are a roaming squad. But gate is now also fortified… So it just means more time raming or catapulting those objectives…which in the end me and my roaming friends just leave them be since it’s too much of a chore.

(3) The pathing of the map seems to be worse than what Alpine borderland offered. Zigzaging and going up and down makes the map that is slightly larger to feel like walking from point A to point B to take much more time than what it used to be on Alpine borderland. Or atleast it feels less straightfoward and more about dodging the ennemy than to engage them. Those keeps are just so vast with so many pathway. Keeping it simple is not always a bad thing.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————-

Basically, I think a tweaked Alpine would be better. Alpine had its flaws, but people still loved that map after 3 years (sure they asked some fix there and there, but a total revamp of the map doesn’t seem to get us to a better place, fixed some problems only to make new ones arise).

You and Wetpaw nailed it. I would likewise have preferred to see the Alpine map tweaked a tiny bit and reskinned (Alpine theme for one server, Desert theme for the second, Jungle theme for the third, and rotating them – the rotation mechanic already exists but is not used) rather than replacing the vanilla (classic) map.

The gameplay elements… yeah, as Phantom said. We aren’t in WvW to be countered and killed by AI. I’d say tweak the lords slightly, though; from what I’ve seen, they scale too highly for small groups.

coglin.1867:

morrolan.9608:

Keeps were never able to be trebbed from other keeps after they stopped bay being able to be trebbed from garri.

When I say keeps, I was refering to towers as well. Anywhere is which players could safely treb from behind a secure wall, that could be highly sieged.

As well, you could treb towers from the spawn area and be completely untouchable.

That gives them strategic importance, to take for both sides, and it does encourage fights over the objective whether its open field or not. Fights are fights, most players want fights whether its open field or over objectives. Its the GvGers that mainly want open field, so the open field thing is overstated.

Something that might work, if it’s a matter of WvW dying in general, is expanding the player capacity for EBG and expanding the map behind each server’s keep to include either something similar to the Alpine maps or something new (and different terrain – like swamp, alpine, desert – for each corner). A couple more keeps and a new primary garrison in each corner. More like the Elder Scrolls Online WvW map in some ways, I suppose, but less square.

coglin.1867:

And why does the photo you provided show some od the supply camps and spawn areas cropped our, while not doing the same for the new maps? That sure appears shady and dishonest in my opinion.

Then make one yourself and post it. You will find that its just as compact when comparing keep and tower positions. I said the main combat area. Where 95% of traffic is. When you spawn on alpine, how often did you go to north camp and then follow the side paths down when you wanted to south? Unless there was an actual zerg on the way there, most people port to citadel and run east/west to get out. Same thing with the south camp. Its off the main track, the island. The south camp on desert isnt very interesting either.

But hey I listen to critisicm and have cropped it in the same way. Unlike on alpine, I cant crop much north – You need to get out of spawn, thus you have to go through the northern area some way or another. I cant crop the sides since that’s where the hills/bay keeps lords are and nw camp. I cropped the south camp but cant go up further because that’s the south gate of the SW tower. I also extended alpine to the W/E path out of citadel, plus that take into account the often fought over cata field north of NW tower.

Happy now? All fair?

Did it make all the difference in the world?

morrolan.9608:

coglin.1867:

morrolan.9608:

Keeps were never able to be trebbed from other keeps after they stopped bay being able to be trebbed from garri.

When I say keeps, I was refering to towers as well. Anywhere is which players could safely treb from behind a secure wall, that could be highly sieged.

As well, you could treb towers from the spawn area and be completely untouchable.

That gives them strategic importance, to take for both sides, and it does encourage fights over the objective whether its open field or not. Fights are fights, most players want fights whether its open field or over objectives. Its the GvGers that mainly want open field, so the open field thing is overstated.

I hear what you are saying, and to an extent, I agree. The problem is that fights over a keep and open field fights are very different. What I was trying to point out is that there was extensive feedback, demanding a new map, and even more feedback demanding that it create more open field fights. I am simply pointing out that the changes we have now, meet the criteria of some of the multiple threads with more then a thousand post in them.

As well, I personally like that you cannot simply treb from the safety of a well siege tower or keep now.

morrolan.9608:

coglin.1867:

morrolan.9608:

Keeps were never able to be trebbed from other keeps after they stopped bay being able to be trebbed from garri.

When I say keeps, I was refering to towers as well. Anywhere is which players could safely treb from behind a secure wall, that could be highly sieged.

As well, you could treb towers from the spawn area and be completely untouchable.

That gives them strategic importance, to take for both sides, and it does encourage fights over the objective whether its open field or not. Fights are fights, most players want fights whether its open field or over objectives. Its the GvGers that mainly want open field, so the open field thing is overstated.

I hear what you are saying, and to an extent, I agree. The problem is that fights over a keep and open field fights are very different. What I was trying to point out is that there was extensive feedback, demanding a new map, and even more feedback demanding that it create more open field fights. I am simply pointing out that the changes we have now, meet the criteria of some of the multiple threads with more then a thousand post in them.

As well, I personally like that you cannot simply treb from the safety of a well siege tower or keep now.

Jim Hunter.6821:

You just described why it sucks for roaming.
No one is there upgrading the bl since it’s on auto pilot, and since upgrades require no effort and the towers/keeps are completely disconnected, no one cares to defend.

This means the only way you’ll find a fight is if you just happen to run into each other.

The problem I used to see on the old BLs was that the only people there were the ones upgrading, and they were generally not good fighters. Bad fights are better than no fights, but the changes have just made a major problem in WvW more obvious – defending is a fool’s errand.

The other thing I’ve been seeing is that building up your guild hall is far more rewarding than defending things in WvW because you actually get to keep the fruits of your labour longer than a week, or until someone nightcaps it.

Maybe a better solution would be looking toward guild halls for inspiration. Cut down on the grind a bit though.

Ben K.6238:

Jim Hunter.6821:

You just described why it sucks for roaming.
No one is there upgrading the bl since it’s on auto pilot, and since upgrades require no effort and the towers/keeps are completely disconnected, no one cares to defend.

This means the only way you’ll find a fight is if you just happen to run into each other.

The problem I used to see on the old BLs was that the only people there were the ones upgrading, and they were generally not good fighters. Bad fights are better than no fights, but the changes have just made a major problem in WvW more obvious – defending is a fool’s errand.

A lot of them did suck at fighting, and after dying multiple times they would call in reinforcements. I can’t count the amount of times I had 30+ man groups respond for a handful of us.
This was one of the main objectives of roaming/havocing. We would force the zerg to split up or they would start losing things. Now they just karma train to their hearts content because roaming is no longer effective or meaningful.

You guys do realize the pix for the wvw map comparison cuts off the N and S camps on the old bl. The main differences is the new map is wilder and there is more playable spaces at the spawns.

The map is better than the old one. Its not getting play since its not as easy to zerg.
If they fix pop issues it will be fine.

1. Bring back keep wps for bay/hills.
2. Rescale the pve event at mid.
3. Player trigger on upgrades.

Jski.6180:

You guys do realize the pix for the wvw map comparison cuts off the N and S camps on the old bl. The main differences is the new map is wilder and there is more playable spaces at the spawns.

Lol…

Think you can make a more fair comparison? Then do it. Post a comparison pic (I recommend using some transparency as well, I just used kittenty Paint to do it).

I bet the towers, keeps and camps will still be in the exact same locations, ie on a considerably tighter area than the scattered towers, keeps and camps on desert border. In fact, nothing would change even if you draw 10 “cut off” camps outside the map.

The main combat area, south of the east/west paths out of citadel and from the southern part of the island and up remain exactly the same.

Dawdler.8521:

Jski.6180:

You guys do realize the pix for the wvw map comparison cuts off the N and S camps on the old bl. The main differences is the new map is wilder and there is more playable spaces at the spawns.

Lol…

Think you can make a more fair comparison? Then do it. Post a comparison pic (I recommend using some transparency as well, I just used kittenty Paint to do it).

I bet the towers, keeps and camps will still be in the exact same locations, ie on a considerably tighter area than the scattered towers, keeps and camps on desert border. In fact, nothing would change even if you draw 10 “cut off” camps outside the map.

The main combat area, south of the east/west paths out of citadel and from the southern part of the island and up remain exactly the same.

Are you talking about cutting off every thing from maps but the objective to compare things? There is more open spaces in the new BL but that for the players to have spaces to fight if ppl chose to use them or not is up to them. The big thing is in the old BL you have open spaces but they where no part of the map in a lot of ways becuse the objectives where a bit more tighter so there was more waist spaces in the old BL and ppl even complained about this.

The ideal behind the new BL is to brake up blobs so you make smaller and more spread out groups a far better chose then blobbing up. This is done by making the most effect paths chocks and very easy to def vs big groups.
Its also about removing krama training or at least make it less effective. This is done by adding in more environmental def such as having different levels to the map to need to deal with to get to the next point. Also by making tower and keeps take longer to take due to spaces and stronger lords.

So ppl not liking the new maps is very telling on what ppl want vs what they say. Players want to blob players want to karam train they just like to say they do not like these things becuse it makes them feel less “hard core” as players of wvw / rvr. At the end of the day pvp is up to the players more then its up to the game makers. If there are no players to fight then they do not want to truly pvp.

Never seen Borders so empty in 3+ years…

#wvwisdead2015