Guild Wars 2

Im curious to hear the thoughts of others on the waypoint system.

I for one do not see a need for waypoints in towers in your own borderland for the enemy team.

Also the lack of waypoints in the east and west keeps in the borderlands seems rather defeating to the home team or did I hear that wrong?

Only your borderlands garri /starter EBG area keeps get waypoints.

South towers get wps

Enemies can not take a keep on your bordlerands and waypoint it anymore.

You have a bit more map freedom this way!

Stonemist has a waypoint upgrade still. Making it a focal point.

It makes towers much more important to where you need to def them. Towers are supple lines for keeps (not supplies of use for repairs but supplies as in ppl movement).

WP made a lot of keep fights very stagnate ppl defing would wait for timers to push out and get a “free death” in doing so. Towers are much softer targets and you can stop ppl from getting into keeps to reinforce the keeps def (no endless steam of supplies from EotM if a keep is wped).

So in a way WP are easier to get but harder to hold and not as useful. They are also a bit harder to contest with out splinting up groups.

Preventing wp in enemies keeps sounds like an attempt to reduce the night capping impact. It will help a lot of lower tiers servers.

I think they said they are putting them in the southern towers which is absolutely idiotic since the enemy will be able to keep them contested 24/7 by doing something cheesy like a treb in range of the legendary defenders, sending out siegerazor umpteen times in a row, or just running up and tapping since it is 2 ft from their spawn and you can flat out ignore tower guards.

This also makes keeps about a thousand times less valuable. Why bother going through the trouble of busting a T3 keep if there isn’t a WP to cut off? The reason keeps are valuable is because the WP’s give you a tactical advantage on the map.

They need to fire whoever is coming up with these changes, they are completely out of touch with WvW.

ermmm, i still dun have a whole idea of the new borderland map and dont think anyone do

so, i believe we can only see the whole picture of this wp change for borderland when we have seen the new borderland map

Jim Hunter.6821:

I think they said they are putting them in the southern towers which is absolutely idiotic since the enemy will be able to keep them contested 24/7 by doing something cheesy like a treb in range of the legendary defenders, sending out siegerazor umpteen times in a row, or just running up and tapping since it is 2 ft from their spawn and you can flat out ignore tower guards.

The waypoints are only for the server with the closest spawn. So Redbriar will only have a waypoint for red, etc.

Taiyetos.3260:

Jim Hunter.6821:

I think they said they are putting them in the southern towers which is absolutely idiotic since the enemy will be able to keep them contested 24/7 by doing something cheesy like a treb in range of the legendary defenders, sending out siegerazor umpteen times in a row, or just running up and tapping since it is 2 ft from their spawn and you can flat out ignore tower guards.

The waypoints are only for the server with the closest spawn. So Redbriar will only have a waypoint for red, etc.

That’s in EB, not the BL’s

Reading is hard…

EB
Red keep will only have wp for red
Blue keep will only have wp for blue
Green keep will only have wp for green
SM wp will need to be upgraded and any side that gets it t3 can use it.

Example: Green BL
The closest southern tower to red spawn (redbriar) will only have wp for red
The closest southern tower to blue spawn (bluebriar) will only have wp for blue
The Green Garrison will only have wp fo green.

Manimarco Devil.1790:

Reading is hard…

EB
Red keep will only have wp for red
Blue keep will only have wp for blue
Green keep will only have wp for green
SM wp will need to be upgraded and any side that gets it t3 can use it.

Example: Green BL
The closest southern tower to red spawn (redbriar) will only have wp for red
The closest southern tower to blue spawn (bluebriar) will only have wp for blue
The Green Garrison will only have wp fo green.

I missed a section of the stream because I had to get my daughter from the bus stop but Dulfy has it posted as, “On borderland maps, the two side keep waypoints would move to the two southern towers.”

As stupid an idea as that is it still makes a lot more sense than only giving the enemy servers southern WP’s on your BL that are also in spitting distance of their spawn. Of course at this point I won’t put any bad idea’s past them.

Wtf would be the point of having waypoints on the border towers? They are not strategically important and it take like 20 seconds to go there from spawn. Zergs moving to bay or hills barely go past the keep, they take the camp route instead.

Change:
On borderland maps, the two side keep way-points would move to the two southern towers.

So Remember, there is no bay or hills anymore, this is a new map, first off.

Also remember defending towers is going to be better on this map.

Except:
Waypoints will be automatically available when you own an objective, but only for the team with the closest home base to that objective.

so….

But… the south towers are getting waypoints not the side keeps…

So the enemy has a waypoint to…a south tower…? I dont think thats a big advantage

And I dont think the enemy spawn is considered a Home base. I saw an image of the waypoint towers belonging to the home borderland.

http://i.imgur.com/81SqTzi.jpg

Nightshade.2570:

But… the south towers are getting waypoints not the side keeps…

So the enemy has a waypoint to…a south tower…? I dont think thats a big advantage

No I’m pretty sure the WP’s in the southern towers are for the home server.

It sure would be nice if we had a kitten anet rep that could clear things like this up. Everyone go check reddit, facebook, twitch and whatever the hell else they use instead of their own official forums.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Nightshade.2570:

But… the south towers are getting waypoints not the side keeps…

So the enemy has a waypoint to…a south tower…? I dont think thats a big advantage

No I’m pretty sure the WP’s in the southern towers are for the home server.

It sure would be nice if we had a kitten anet rep that could clear things like this up. Everyone go check reddit, facebook, twitch and whatever the hell else they use instead of their own official forums.

Yeah I just looked into it and saw what you said to be true.

Nightshade.2570:

But… the south towers are getting waypoints not the side keeps…

So the enemy has a waypoint to…a south tower…? I dont think thats a big advantage

It doesn’t really make a lot of sense, but I can think of a situation or 2 that would benefit the attacking side, not to mention just the fact it will be a lot closer for them to waypoint and run back to garri or a keep. Even shaving off a few seconds for players to run back can make the difference in winning or losing a fight, with the attackers having an advantage over the defenders :/ Although I suppose having garri waypointed when you take it is a good thing, can make holding a garrison a bit easier to have that, but still can be tapped like before, except now the defenders have to tap a tower to slow down attackers…

Edit: Yes we are all thinking in terms of Alpine not the new map, but whether we end up with a rotation or not, it looks like the new maps towers are still in about the same spots. If it is a lot farther of a run, it will be giving attackers an easy advantage. Idk, everything feels like it’s just going to encourage ktrain more :/

If it is for the defenders, then that can help defenders, until the attackers just make sure to tap the other tower too. But I’d be more open to defenders having the waypoints than attackers, but at resets, the southern towers aren’t owned by the home bl…

Well I was more concerned about the home team advantage of mobility on their own BL. I can see having less chance of mobility in EBG. Only if the server is absolutely dominant do they have weaypoints in all keeps in EBG.

I dont think the EBG change will have much if any effect. The Bl’s on the other hand, the ability to WP into the southern areas of your BL is going to be gone.

But as many have said, I am looking a this from the current map perspective.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Nightshade.2570:

But… the south towers are getting waypoints not the side keeps…

So the enemy has a waypoint to…a south tower…? I dont think thats a big advantage

No I’m pretty sure the WP’s in the southern towers are for the home server.

It sure would be nice if we had a kitten anet rep that could clear things like this up. Everyone go check reddit, facebook, twitch and whatever the hell else they use instead of their own official forums.

WPs in the south tower are not for the home server, they’re for the enemy team that spawns closest to that waypoint. That’s what they said in the livestream today. The idea is that enemy teams on the BLs should always ideally be trying to own at least the tower closest toward their spawn (siegerazor helps with that too).

And yeah, those waypoints aren’t a huge distance from the spawns, but it’s still something (similar to the distance between the keeps and the spawns on EB). If the towers have supply in them it gives a way for enemy teams on the BLs to quickly zone in and get supply before attacking a nearby objective.

Also, remember in the new BL map there is a center oasis objective. If you’re an enemy team on a BL and you die during that oasis event, having a waypoint at your southern tower means you can get back to that event a lot quicker.

nightblood.7910:

Well I was more concerned about the home team advantage of mobility on their own BL. I can see having less chance of mobility in EBG. Only if the server is absolutely dominant do they have weaypoints in all keeps in EBG.

I dont think the EBG change will have much if any effect. The Bl’s on the other hand, the ability to WP into the southern areas of your BL is going to be gone.

But as many have said, I am looking a this from the current map perspective.

Even if a server owns all objectives on EB, they would only be able to have waypoints at SM and at the keep closest to their spawn. They would never have access to waypoints at the other two team’s keeps.

http://i.imgur.com/81SqTzi.jpg

I really dont think the south tower waypoints are for enemies guys lol! look at the picture

Manimarco Devil.1790:

Reading is hard…

EB
Red keep will only have wp for red
Blue keep will only have wp for blue
Green keep will only have wp for green
SM wp will need to be upgraded and any side that gets it t3 can use it.

Example: Green BL
The closest southern tower to red spawn (redbriar) will only have wp for red
The closest southern tower to blue spawn (bluebriar) will only have wp for blue
The Green Garrison will only have wp fo green.

So what youre saying is I read it correctly?

well, they did say in the stream that borderlands home team should have the advantage, and the side keeps having waypoints essentially gave the advantage to the visitors, by allowing them better access-ability on the map via WPs. then they discussed how EB needed to restrict access to opposing keeps’ waypoints as well, due to the snowball effect of allowing one team to WP across the map to camp an enemy server’s spawn.

Nightshade.2570:

http://i.imgur.com/81SqTzi.jpg

I really dont think the south tower waypoints are for enemies guys lol! look at the picture

Actually if you look at that picture, center waypoint is open and usable but the southern waypoint is not in that BL.

It looks like a possible photoshop gig to show the map in total.

Because how could both a blue and green waypoint be open to anyone?

But based on that single BL Im pretty sure that southern WP is for the enemy.

Welp, makes the life of attackers easier on borderlands.
You have a wp close to the next keep, and a already available supply-stash in best cases, enabling keep-rushes, induced by havoc-groups who flipped the tower before.

On lower population tiers night-capping also gets more interesting since you can’t just put up a bonfire and brew a stew while waiting for attackers to leave their spawn, but have to deal with the fact that they have 2 spots to wp to, making surveillance of your home-border much harder, unless you flip the tower and embrace the inevitable siege-razor, which further opens up the way for ninja-flipper to invade your map.

I had one poor guy once that desperately tried to get things done in the middle of the night on his own. He was a engi, running a weak spec and had one of the first few wvw-ranks (can’t remember the exact one). Predicting his movement pattern was quite easy, so I intercepted and stomped him every time he stuck his nose out of spawn.
Now if he had a secondary wp available to port to, he easily could have escaped my grip and flipped an objective too far away from me to respond in time. For people like this, these changes will certainly be a improvement of life.

nightblood.7910:

Nightshade.2570:

http://i.imgur.com/81SqTzi.jpg

I really dont think the south tower waypoints are for enemies guys lol! look at the picture

Actually if you look at that picture, center waypoint is open and usable but the southern waypoint is not in that BL.

It looks like a possible photoshop gig to show the map in total.

Because how could both a blue and green waypoint be open to anyone?

But based on that single BL Im pretty sure that southern WP is for the enemy.

It could also be under attack, as they said they will still be contestable. In fact looking further the tower for both are green.

Nightshade.2570:

nightblood.7910:

Nightshade.2570:

http://i.imgur.com/81SqTzi.jpg

I really dont think the south tower waypoints are for enemies guys lol! look at the picture

Actually if you look at that picture, center waypoint is open and usable but the southern waypoint is not in that BL.

It looks like a possible photoshop gig to show the map in total.

Because how could both a blue and green waypoint be open to anyone?

But based on that single BL Im pretty sure that southern WP is for the enemy.

It could also be under attack, as they said they will still be contestable.

Yes I agree, but once again, there is a blue tower with a waypoint open at the top of the picture and what looks like a waypoint in a garri open in the Anvil Rock Borderlands.

Also that tower is green.

Which if it were a person on Anvil Rock, then the blue tower shouldnt be available in the other BL. If it were a person from the blue server, then the green garri shouldnt be available.

This picture clarified nothing for me and looks broken under any circumstances.

nightblood.7910:

Nightshade.2570:

nightblood.7910:

Nightshade.2570:

http://i.imgur.com/81SqTzi.jpg

I really dont think the south tower waypoints are for enemies guys lol! look at the picture

Actually if you look at that picture, center waypoint is open and usable but the southern waypoint is not in that BL.

It looks like a possible photoshop gig to show the map in total.

Because how could both a blue and green waypoint be open to anyone?

But based on that single BL Im pretty sure that southern WP is for the enemy.

It could also be under attack, as they said they will still be contestable.

Yes I agree, but once again, there is a blue tower with a waypoint open at the top of the picture and what looks like a waypoint in a garri open in the Anvil Rock Borderlands.

Also that tower is green.

Which if it were a person on Anvil Rock, then the blue tower shouldnt be available in the other BL. If it were a person from the blue server, then the green garri shouldnt be available.

the blue tower is on a different map borderland. We really need a dev on this one please devs PLEASE.

Forgotten Legend.9281:

well, they did say in the stream that borderlands home team should have the advantage, and the side keeps having waypoints essentially gave the advantage to the visitors, by allowing them better access-ability on the map via WPs. then they discussed how EB needed to restrict access to opposing keeps’ waypoints as well, due to the snowball effect of allowing one team to WP across the map to camp an enemy server’s spawn.

Yeah if someone could get a WP on your side keeps in the borderlands it did give them an advantage, but more often than not, if you can wwp your BL then you have ten times better mobility there.

Southern fights in BL’s between bay and southwest towers happened often with the owning team being able to wp to bay and keep coming back just as the attacking side could WP and keep coming back from spawn.

Now they WP the defending server all the way up north to Garri if you have it giving the opposing server the advantage in the southern parts of the BL with quick return time, they win the war of attrition by worst case scenerio being able to run back from spawn quicker than you can run back from garri. As well as being able to back that fight up with a guild group from spawn faster than you can back it up with a guild group from somewhere up north.

The tower waypoints are whatever, I dont think they give anymore or less advantage to the attacking server, but the lack of waypoints for the home team in the southern parts of the BL seems counter intuitive to giving the defending team the advantage.

Nightshade.2570:

nightblood.7910:

Nightshade.2570:

nightblood.7910:

Nightshade.2570:

http://i.imgur.com/81SqTzi.jpg

I really dont think the south tower waypoints are for enemies guys lol! look at the picture

Actually if you look at that picture, center waypoint is open and usable but the southern waypoint is not in that BL.

It looks like a possible photoshop gig to show the map in total.

Because how could both a blue and green waypoint be open to anyone?

But based on that single BL Im pretty sure that southern WP is for the enemy.

It could also be under attack, as they said they will still be contestable.

Yes I agree, but once again, there is a blue tower with a waypoint open at the top of the picture and what looks like a waypoint in a garri open in the Anvil Rock Borderlands.

Also that tower is green.

Which if it were a person on Anvil Rock, then the blue tower shouldnt be available in the other BL. If it were a person from the blue server, then the green garri shouldnt be available.

the blue tower is on a different map borderland. We really need a dev on this one please devs PLEASE.

But to clarify what i was saying about this picture.

If you look, both the northern spawn WP and the Garri WP is open. Which should indicate that this is a person from the Green server that is looking at the map.

Now if it were that the southern WP’s were for the defending Server in their own BL then the blue tower in the other BL wouldnt be open to the person who also has green spawn open (see at the very top of the green BL and at garri in green BL), but it is.

But at the same time if the southern tower waypoints were for the opposing server, they said if the tower is owned by someone else it wouldnt be open to you anyway, but it is.

Now by chance if the main BL that we see is actually the Blue BL and has been ramsacked by green, then why is the green garri open to blue?

So this picture is broken under any circumstances.

nightblood.7910:

So this picture is broken under any circumstances.

Which is not surprising, since any of these screen shots came from dev builds on dev accounts, which means that any waypoint can probably be flipped on and off at will for testing.

Everything I have read indicates that new southern tower waypoints belong to the opposing servers, and will never be available to the home team. This follows with the design philosophy that the new southern towers are the gateway to your map. The ememy either flips them, breaks the wall next to them, or has to go far out of their way to get around them.

Having an instant waypoint is both their incentive and reward for flipping and holding that tower.

DomAltares.8651:

nightblood.7910:

So this picture is broken under any circumstances.

Which is not surprising, since any of these screen shots came from dev builds on dev accounts, which means that any waypoint can probably be flipped on and off at will for testing.

Everything I have read indicates that new southern tower waypoints belong to the opposing servers, and will never be available to the home team. This follows with the design philosophy that the new southern towers are the gateway to your map. The ememy either flips them, breaks the wall next to them, or has to go far out of their way to get around them.

Having an instant waypoint is both their incentive and reward for flipping and holding that tower.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing of it being a dev account. Also I dont really know the routes of access to the southern parts of BL’s, but if the defending team lacks any southern waypoints, its pretty much giving the southern parts of the BL to the Opposing server.

As I said Im not too concerned about the opposing team having waypoints in towers. Thats whatevver, but the lack of waypoints for the defending team is going to make it real hard to defend southern parts of the BL and win some of the big fights that happen there.

When I was on SoS one of the best places you could go to find a massive fight was between bay and southwest tower. And it was a war of attrition. Those massive fights went on forever because FA could WP from spawn just as quick as SoS could WP from bay. The stalemate was in the defending teams favor.

This pretty much ends that and gives it to the opposing team as now the defending team will have to come from Garri to get back to whereever that fight is and likely lose that keep because of it. While the attacking teams worst case scenario is the run back from spawn

The other side of the coin though, it becomes in your favor in their BL.

nightblood.7910:

This pretty much ends that and gives it to the opposing team as now the defending team will have to come from Garri to get back to whereever that fight is and likely lose that keep because of it.

The other side of the coin though, it becomes in your favor in their BL.

You and I both know that the gold will flow to make sure that Garri waypoint stays tapped 24/7 on higher tier servers if this is the way things are to play out. There’s going to be thieves and mesmers raking it in to keep that WP useless.

Let’s not even get started on the 500 supply cap in keeps coupled with these new waypoints. If the enemy breaches inner, even if you can repel them you may as well just hand them the kitten ed keep. You’ll never repair it more than once and shuttling supply from other keeps is going the way of the past.

DomAltares.8651:

nightblood.7910:

This pretty much ends that and gives it to the opposing team as now the defending team will have to come from Garri to get back to whereever that fight is and likely lose that keep because of it.

The other side of the coin though, it becomes in your favor in their BL.

You and I both know that the gold will flow to make sure that Garri waypoint stays tapped 24/7 on higher tier servers if this is the way things are to play out. There’s going to be thieves and mesmers raking it in to keep that WP useless.

Let’s not even get started on the 500 supply cap in keeps coupled with these new waypoints. If the enemy breaches inner, even if you can repel them you may as well just hand them the kitten ed keep. You’ll never repair it more than once and shuttling supply from other keeps is going the way of the past.

Exactly so now the defending team will have to come from all the way up north of the BL. At the very very north of it where North Camp used to be which is now spawn.

This is going to be interesting.

Now this is actually a new and fresh change. Hopefully it’ll reduce snowball effects and avoid demoralizing the servers that have been set back during a match. Also, maybe the south towers will be more than siegerazer flip bait.

This should make defending borderlands less annoying.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Just to clarifying a few points, since there seems to be some confusion. On Borderlands the 3 capturable waypoints are at Garrison, SE Tower and SW Tower. Garrison is for the home team and then each of the invading teams gets a waypoint at their closest tower. These waypoints can be contested as normal. We’ve considered home team waypoints for the Bay/Hills keeps too, but that’s probably too strong. Keep supply depot max goes up to 1100 at T3, not 500.

I wish you guys would bring back the ORB mechanic in the borderlands map. The CTF style of play was really intense and since it’s gone the borderland maps have never been as fun. Back then some players were hacking but you probably have fixed that by now. In a forum post you guys said it would be back.

The Ruins area should do something else than give a stat bonus, right now everyone ignores. Also the “capture 3 points” objective is just not fun.

orbs were a target for client hacking and just teleporting/flying around with the orb. It was far too tempting a target and caused a lot of issues.

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

orbs were a target for client hacking and just teleporting/flying around with the orb. It was far too tempting a target and caused a lot of issues.

You shouldn’t cripple your game because of hacking issues. Ban or prevent hackers and that’s it, but don’t limit your game mechanics because of hackers.

Xillllix.3485:

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

orbs were a target for client hacking and just teleporting/flying around with the orb. It was far too tempting a target and caused a lot of issues.

You shouldn’t cripple your game because of hacking issues. Ban or prevent hackers and that’s it, but don’t limit your game mechanics because of hackers.

Well to be fair, it also gave far more advantage to the stacked server…

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

Xillllix.3485:

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

orbs were a target for client hacking and just teleporting/flying around with the orb. It was far too tempting a target and caused a lot of issues.

You shouldn’t cripple your game because of hacking issues. Ban or prevent hackers and that’s it, but don’t limit your game mechanics because of hackers.

Well to be fair, it also gave far more advantage to the stacked server…

They can change what the orb does… I’m just saying that a lot of people like the CTF mechanic. They can just make it that when you capture the orb it gives you 10 points and it takes 15-30 min to respawn again.

well they aren’t so…

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Just to clarifying a few points, since there seems to be some confusion. On Borderlands the 3 capturable waypoints are at Garrison, SE Tower and SW Tower. Garrison is for the home team and then each of the invading teams gets a waypoint at their closest tower. These waypoints can be contested as normal. We’ve considered home team waypoints for the Bay/Hills keeps too, but that’s probably too strong. Keep supply depot max goes up to 1100 at T3, not 500.

How soon will these be implemented?

Tzozef.9841:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Just to clarifying a few points, since there seems to be some confusion. On Borderlands the 3 capturable waypoints are at Garrison, SE Tower and SW Tower. Garrison is for the home team and then each of the invading teams gets a waypoint at their closest tower. These waypoints can be contested as normal. We’ve considered home team waypoints for the Bay/Hills keeps too, but that’s probably too strong. Keep supply depot max goes up to 1100 at T3, not 500.

How soon will these be implemented?

Well according to the blog, with Heart of Thorns.

I want to play this before I give my final judgement, but looks like a very good change in the direction of splitting blobs and making it harder to cover the whole map with a single, big group.

So exactly what would be the point in defending hills/bay on your home bl?

By tagging garrison, we’d have to run from citadel all the way to respond to an attack while our opponents now have a shortcut to it.

I have not yet seen the ready up (can’t find it posted anywhere either), but have they shown an overhead layout shot of the new map? That might help me understand how this works.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

I have not yet seen the ready up (can’t find it posted anywhere either), but have they shown an overhead layout shot of the new map? That might help me understand how this works.

Dulfy has the notes and a link to twitch is on there
http://dulfy.net/2015/05/22/gw2-wvw-automatic-upgrades-and-changes-livestream-notes/

Only map image I know of is
http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/gw2-new-desert-borderlands-map1.jpg

You know the problems these changes can give, just remember what we dealt with before, when we had half the current population. I can imagine the problems it would cause now, but whatever.

Wow. That is so freakin weird looking. Look at all those narrow paths! The whole map is practically a choke point!

I can’t help but think that they really missed out on a huge opportunity to use the new gliders there (and yes, I know why they didn’t.. I wouldn’t want to be the guy who had to prevent/fix any exploitable points).

Dear players,
we were looking how you play our game and we found out you play it wrong. What we seen were big and small fights. Players sieged structure and defended it. Players escorting dolyaks, killing sentries. Flipping of camps is one of favourites way how to spend time.
We said NO.
We dont want you to play your way. So we are making a lot of changes so you can return to play our way: running simulator.