Guild Wars 2

As the title says.

I know someone with a bunch of pearls ready to go for that

I prefer it stay drained and gimmick free, tbh.

The lake was just a giant pve chunk of the bl.
I really do like the ruins even if I never cap them, its a nice area to pvp that isn’t so flat and boring.
I do have a few pearls myself btw ;-)

YES PLEASE +)

I mean sure quaggan’s are cute and all, but honestly the center portions of the borderlands seem to be a recurring problem area for arenanet.

I mean their general design philosophy for them seems to be as a comeback or turnaround mechanics. The ruins is probably the most successful and the quaggan weather machine the least successful mechanically.

However, the one common factor between all three we have seen thus far is that they are mostly ignored as non-mechanics by a huge portion of the playerbase. Even the ruins that are pure PvP objectives suffer from this most of the time.

At the end of the day I get why the center of the DBL was the way it was, only it was too much PvE with too big of an impact whereas the quaggan’s were too much PvE for too little of an impact. Yeah, both of them can in theory lead to fights, but only if both sides choose not to ignore them.

Crise.9401:

I mean sure quaggan’s are cute and all, but honestly the center portions of the borderlands seem to be a recurring problem area for arenanet.

I mean their general design philosophy for them seems to be as a comeback or turnaround mechanics. The ruins is probably the most successful and the quaggan weather machine the least successful mechanically.

However, the one common factor between all three we have seen thus far is that they are mostly ignored as non-mechanics by a huge portion of the playerbase. Even the ruins that are pure PvP objectives suffer from this most of the time.

At the end of the day I get why the center of the DBL was the way it was, only it was too much PvE with too big of an impact whereas the quaggan’s were too much PvE for too little of an impact. Yeah, both of them can in theory lead to fights, but only if both sides choose not to ignore them.

This is a good analysis, except I think the ruins were an utter failure. Ruins really don’t lead to interesting fights (unless you count some gankers using condi cancer builds as such). Most zergs even avoid spending any considerable time there.

I want the lake area of the Alpine borderland back, but with modifications. The Central island should be made a bit bigger or alternatively it could hold a tower or a keep with underwater portions. Give us a bit more variety compared to the existing towers and keeps.

Nevertheless the game designers should stop adding defensive measures to this game mode and instead do such game design choices which make direct players-vs-player engagement happen more often, especially large scale pvp. Fighting vs doors and capturing simple pve objectives becomes a chore in the long run, but large scale fights can hold interest for longer time, especially of the designers would shake up the meta more often (e.g. make rangers and engineers as useful in large scale as guardians and elementalists have always been). The shrines in DBL were an annoying defensive mechanism basically impairing fights, same for the air strike of SMC in the EBG. No matter what Arenanet does, it shouldn’t be too overpowered like mega cannon in DBL was (it was removed for a good reason).

Deniara Devious.3948:

This is a good analysis, except I think the ruins were an utter failure. Ruins really don’t lead to interesting fights (unless you count some gankers using condi cancer builds as such). Most zergs even avoid spending any considerable time there.

…

I want the lake area of the Alpine borderland back, but with modifications. The Central island should be made a bit bigger or alternatively it could hold a tower or a keep with underwater portions. Give us a bit more variety compared to the existing towers and keeps.

Yeah… all the mid sections are a failure in the sense that most of the time people didn’t/don’t play them. The ruins are a success in the sense that they are a pure PvP objective, since most people here detest anything even remotely PvE like.

As for your suggestion, I doubt we will ever see underwater keeps again… some of the keeps have underwater gates already, although they haven’t been actual gates since the original BWE’s of vanilla GW2. The reason cited for this back then was the fact that no underwater siege exists.

Yeah….. no, sorry. The ruins are way better. I’ve used them to escape from enemy zergs more times than I can count, and I’ve had quite a few great small scale fights in there.

One of my favorite wvw memories was a couple friends and I building the cannon on the south ruin, a flame ram on the ledge at the top of the stairs, and a cata for sw tower on the pillars to draw out the 15+ group of defenders, and fully wiping them with the help of the ram/cannon as they tried to climb up and get us.

And if you kitteners don’t get rid of your pearls I’m going to call hoarders.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Yeah….. no, sorry. The ruins are way better. I’ve used them to escape from enemy zergs more times than I can count, and I’ve had quite a few great small scale fights in there.

I agree, as a terrain the ruins are ok, but I doubt you can argue that mechanically they are any better than the rest mid borderland stuff.

Crise.9401:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Yeah….. no, sorry. The ruins are way better. I’ve used them to escape from enemy zergs more times than I can count, and I’ve had quite a few great small scale fights in there.

I agree, as a terrain the ruins are ok, but I doubt you can argue that mechanically they are any better than the rest mid borderland stuff.

I won’t argue that they mechanically good, but they are definitely better than that bullkitten dino skyhammer.
They do have the added bonus of offering up free bags from the PvE players that hop in to get their master of monuments daily done.

God no, the ruins were such a better change when they added them.

I engineer aquatic systems, I’ll build those little quaggans a massive beautiful system with a floating bar and mesmer waitresses in bikinis. I read that they like salt and freshwater, I’ll include tropical fish and black tipped reef shark aquarium with a restaurant so they can relax from all the roamers that will most likely torment them.

Personally, I’d much rather have the quaggans back. The thunder temple was a lot more strategically relevant than the ruins are. Being able to let the lightning strikes take out the defensive siege in the keeps corresponding to the nodes held was a good way a small team could soften up a keep before the main assault.

The current ruins are just a way they shoehorned in the worst part of the orbs, the buffs, without putting the best part of the orbs back in. No one wanted the buffs back. People wanted the capture, the run, the chase, the extra objective, the importance of holding a keep on each map. But because they couldn’t be bothered to hire GMs to ban hackers and exploiters (desite thousands of reports, a lot of them usually included video evidenc), they removed a strategically important area to slap “esports” into the middle, and the worst part of the orbs brought back.

And what happens now? A zerg blobs the ruins, and the biggest server gets even stronger as a result. Roamers? Yeah, you’re fodder when the blob rolls in. You might be able to come back in after the blob’s gone, but by then it won’t matter. They already accomplished what they needed to there, and now you have to fight at a disadvantage to try to get it back. Either that, or a few people just sneak in when no one’s around, and just….. stand there for a few minutes.

Personally, I’d rather both the center area and the orbs be restored to how they were at launch, with some GMs around to actually punish cheaters. It takes a lot more time, energy and resources to have to keep coming up with new duct tape solutions (that still usually don’t seem all that effective) than it would to just do the job right the first time.

Hipsters…………..

The ruins were just a natural progession of map design fail:

1. Skyhammer
2. BL Ruins
3. Desert BL

Interestingly they all fail for very similar reasons. And Anet had plenty of time to learn from one fail to the next, they just didn’t. All three should be deleted from the game.

Edit: as Deniara Devious points out, EoTM belongs on the fail-list as well.

Lord Kuru.3685:

The ruins were just a natural progession of map design fail:

1. Skyhammer
2. BL Ruins
3. Desert BL

Interestingly they all fail for very similar reasons. And Anet had plenty of time to learn from one fail to the next, they just didn’t. All three should be deleted from the game.

Good analysis.

The original maps of the GW2 were more or less amazing. Surely they had some flaws, but compared to things I have seen in other games in GW2 since the release, they were golden. I could add a few other fail maps:
Edge of the Mists (so called “WvWvW” map)
Dry Top (pve)
Courtyard (spvp)

All these maps + original Skyhammer + Desert borderland + BL ruins area have overdesign written all over them. Dry Top, EotM, original Skyhammer and Desert BL are full of gimmicks, excessive vertical design, places where you can fall to your death. Arenanet simply doesn’t seem to get it: a LOT of players do NOT like maps where falling off the edge is the most common reason of death. Such map design puts professions and builds on a very uneven group. A fearmancer necro can cause an zerg fall to their death in EotM (as illustrated by some videos). Some classes have better access to stability and stun breaks than others.

Dry Top, EotM both suffer from excessive use of vision-blocking particle effects. Desert BL has some of these issues as well.

A good WvWvW map should propel large scale pvp activity, not hinder it. A good map is not too difficult to learn and memorize, yet it offers enough small nooks and crooks for experts to shine. That is why Alpine borderland is a superior map to Desert BL.

Developers: Please open up discussion with you how to make the central area of the Alpine borderland better.

A lot of different things has been proposed e.g. I proposed that the lake would be back, but the central island would be made bigger. The original storm generator mechanism is far better game mechanisms than the DBL megacannon or the Ruins of Power (which adds yet another power creep to the game, NO THANK YOU). Alternative suggestion from me: the central island could have a tower or keep, which is partially underwater (note: partially underwater, meaning that some parts are above water, allowing siege placement etc). This would allow more versatility to the game. The current bloodlust ruins area is just a copy & paste design from conquest spvp, really not more versatility. Those who enjoy conquest spvp, already got their game mode.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Interestingly they all fail for very similar reasons. And Anet had plenty of time to learn from one fail to the next, they just didn’t. All three should be deleted from the game.

While I agree that the mid sections of borderlands maps certainly failed mechanically… care to elaborate what those common reasons are.

People complained about the original lake 1. being underwater content 2. being PvE. So ArenaNet responds by adding sPvP like capture points with no PvE elements whatsoever. Still not good enough, playerbase keeps ignoring it as non-mechanic.

Can’t say this or that about the center of DBL as we have yet to see a proposed replacement mechanic. However, one thing that is clear to me is that ArenNet’s design goals for the mid sections of the maps have not changed from the beginning at all. What I mean by this is that all three mechanics still fill similar role as a potential turnaround or a comeback mechanic.

The idea for the center of the borderlands maps seems to be a mechanic that is supposed to allow a team to force the other two teams to react, in similar vein as the long lost orb mechanic from Alpine.

No ruins are fine IMO, in fact they should be transplanted to the centre of the DBL.

shrek.1046:

No ruins are fine IMO, in fact they should be transplanted to the centre of the DBL.

The ruins are fine, because you can completely ignore them as a mechanic? Or because they are actually fine.

Boo no! Keep those buggy quaggans out!

Buggers would randomly nuke things, owned or not.