[1] Down state is a mechanic to cap the power of highly skilled, experienced players. [2] If power scaled with skill, then 10 mans would be wiping 60 man zergs. Ditto for aoe caps. [3] A game that lets experienced/skilled players completely dominate would end up driving most people away, and become a niche game with a much smaller population.
Down state isn’t needed to cap player power. Limited player capability already does this
Power does scale with skill. But because players have limited capability, skill isn’t the only factor for determining combat and therefore quantity yields an advantage
True! However segregating players based on skill directly solves this problem
Power and skill do not scale on the same curve. Outnumbering your opponent gives a huge advantage by design, through mechanics like down state and in combat rezzing.
There have been other games such as Daoc where power and skill scaled much more in line with each other. A 10 man squad could take out a 100 man zerg. Not every day, but I saw it happen more then a few times. Unskilled, inexperienced players were at a huge disadvantage.
Down state plus low damage output/weak healing and high health pools is what makes superior numbers the first order optimal strategy. If you took out the down state, skill would become much more of a factor in most fights.
And in pvp that’s a good thing. That is what brings pvpers from other games that are to care-bearish to games that offer more in terms of skill.
If 10 people are good enough to beat odds even as much as 3 to 1, they deserve to win instead of just going “ok lets down as many people as we can we can’t possibly win this due to downed state” they should be able to go "ok lets try and kill all of them.
Without downed state for example a group of 10 people could charge into a group of 30 and have hope for winning. But with downed state that group of 30 not only has the advantage of superior numbers but also the advantage of more hands to res allies and more numbers to protect downed allies by pressuring stompers,interuptign stompers, stealthing/shielding/ aoeing all over the downed areas. This is unfair.
Why give handicap to those who already outnumber? I wish anet would answer that. THIS IS NOT HOW PVP WORKS
This post is a gem. I remember our well organized 2 group 16 man zerg in DAoC was able to take down 2 to 3 times our numbers because we were in vent together, organized, and played on a superior level.
This game has never given that kind of opportunity, and with downed state active, you have no hope of advancing a horribly outnumbered fight and taking the win.
Having the skill to play and know your class in DAoC made a huge difference, even in zerg fights. It would be nice to have that warm fuzzy feeling of knowing you played your best and won, rather than knowing no matter how well you play you won’t overcome a much a larger force in GW2.
Very well said Senjun. +1.
Anarai Aeonblade [GASM] – Guardian – DB
RIP my fair Engi and Ranger, you will be missed.
GW2 has less room for clutch. So you won’t take out an army by yourself. But you can take out 2-5 people solo if you’re good enough. Seems pretty fair still.
I play all the things 80. Pew Pew Pew. Killin joor commanders.
4 Warriors, 3 Rangers, 3 Mesmers, 2 Engineers, 2 Guardians, and Necro, Thf, Ele
-Beastygate Beast Milk, OG BG Veteran Native
If you’re playing competently in an out-manned group, you know that the people rezzing are going to be free kills doing no damage.
I’m not going to back & forwards argue about different counter abilities that could fit the scenario.
What I will argue is that down state (mechanically), demotes skill as a determining factor of combat, which is unhealthy for the competitive prosperity of the game.
…
Down state adds a bit of volatility which I think is valuable in the context of WvW (since we’re on the WvW forums). While I would argue skill should highly correlate with battle outcome in sPvP, I’m okay with giving less skilled players a free pass here and there in WvW.
The rally mechanic, on the other hand, adds too much volatility and should be removed or nerfed.
GW2 has less room for clutch. So you won’t take out an army by yourself. But you can take out 2-5 people solo if you’re good enough. Seems pretty fair still.
its more the other peoples lack of skill if your winning 1 v 4-5. Two people could attack you well two people rez anyone who is downed and there is not a kitten thing you could do about it.
GW2 has less room for clutch. So you won’t take out an army by yourself. But you can take out 2-5 people solo if you’re good enough. Seems pretty fair still.
its more the other peoples lack of skill if your winning 1 v 4-5. Two people could attack you well two people rez anyone who is downed and there is not a kitten thing you could do about it.
Yes, clutching, when your skill is greater than your opponents when outnumbered. One thing that would help promote clutch is diminishing returns on CC. I feel that’s the main issue. If one person can keep me CC’d most of the time, what can 2 or more do? There’s not enough easily available stability for all classes. I don’t think downed state is the issue.
EDIT: While we’re on the topic of it, I think level-up advantages should be removed in WvW. You shouldn’t have these random RNG level up benefits happen in the middle of a zerg fight. Leveling up not only does an AoE knockback and full-heal… but I could be in down-state, and across the map a camp gets captured that I helped… BAM I get xp, level up and rally. That had nothing to do with the engagement I was in, but it still was a factor in the outcome of the battle.
I play all the things 80. Pew Pew Pew. Killin joor commanders.
4 Warriors, 3 Rangers, 3 Mesmers, 2 Engineers, 2 Guardians, and Necro, Thf, Ele
-Beastygate Beast Milk, OG BG Veteran Native
GW2 has less room for clutch. So you won’t take out an army by yourself. But you can take out 2-5 people solo if you’re good enough. Seems pretty fair still.
its more the other peoples lack of skill if your winning 1 v 4-5. Two people could attack you well two people rez anyone who is downed and there is not a kitten thing you could do about it.
Yes, clutching, when your skill is greater than your opponents when outnumbered. One thing that would help promote clutch is diminishing returns on CC. I feel that’s the main issue. If one person can keep me CC’d most of the time, what can 2 or more do? There’s not enough easily available stability for all classes. I don’t think downed state is the issue.
EDIT: While we’re on the topic of it, I think level-up advantages should be removed in WvW. You shouldn’t have these random RNG level up benefits happen in the middle of a zerg fight. Leveling up not only does an AoE knockback and full-heal… but I could be in down-state, and across the map a camp gets captured that I helped… BAM I get xp, level up and rally. That had nothing to do with the engagement I was in, but it still was a factor in the outcome of the battle.
speaking to your edit. Tomes of knowledge should not be usable in combat. Hello full heal on everyone.
GW2 has less room for clutch. So you won’t take out an army by yourself. But you can take out 2-5 people solo if you’re good enough. Seems pretty fair still.
its more the other peoples lack of skill if your winning 1 v 4-5. Two people could attack you well two people rez anyone who is downed and there is not a kitten thing you could do about it.
Yes, clutching, when your skill is greater than your opponents when outnumbered. One thing that would help promote clutch is diminishing returns on CC. I feel that’s the main issue. If one person can keep me CC’d most of the time, what can 2 or more do? There’s not enough easily available stability for all classes. I don’t think downed state is the issue.
EDIT: While we’re on the topic of it, I think level-up advantages should be removed in WvW. You shouldn’t have these random RNG level up benefits happen in the middle of a zerg fight. Leveling up not only does an AoE knockback and full-heal… but I could be in down-state, and across the map a camp gets captured that I helped… BAM I get xp, level up and rally. That had nothing to do with the engagement I was in, but it still was a factor in the outcome of the battle.
speaking to your edit. Tomes of knowledge should not be usable in combat. Hello full heal on everyone.
Far too few have issues with the downed state. I think it’s fine as is.
It’s just a sign that there are far too few who care about the game anymore.
I can’t believe that there are still discussions about down-state and rally – it’s just too strong. There are a lot of good reasons in this thread why it’s too strong, I don’t see why some of you guys still defend that kitten.
Another thing i don’t get is, why Anet not just gives every class the same downstate skills – autoattack, interrupt, heal – thats it…
Far too few have issues with the downed state. I think it’s fine as is.
It’s just a sign that there are far too few who care about the game anymore.
I can’t believe that there are still discussions about down-state and rally – it’s just too strong. There are a lot of good reasons in this thread why it’s too strong, I don’t see why some of you guys still defend that kitten.
Another thing i don’t get is, why Anet not just gives every class the same downstate skills – autoattack, interrupt, heal – thats it…
Alot of people don’t read through the whole thread thats why, if they did they would see a couple peoples argument for keeping downed state is because in a nutshell… “skill being the overpowering factor in determining the outcome of a fight is a bad thing.” Makes me really sad lol. Are these really the kind of people I’m fighting when I pvp? No wonder the hardest part of most of my fights is actually stomping the player. and Ive been running scepter/focus condi ele for months.
However to the people who argue downed state is ok but rallying in pvp should be gotten rid of. I can agree with that but then the person just kind of lays there and dies slowly lol. If they only kept their 1 and 4 ability i wouldnt see a problem with that, if no one else is allowed to res them and they cant rally off of mobs or people. At least this way they can revive if their enemy runs off or if it’s a duel but still in my opinion i want to see it gone completely. No need to drag out someones death and forestall anothers victory. In pvp you need to stay on your toes, everyone getting a second, third, fourth and fifth chance is not how it should be and tbh this makes most zergers with superior numbers careless and lazy, where did all the intensity go?
GW2 has less room for clutch. So you won’t take out an army by yourself. But you can take out 2-5 people solo if you’re good enough. Seems pretty fair still.
its more the other peoples lack of skill if your winning 1 v 4-5. Two people could attack you well two people rez anyone who is downed and there is not a kitten thing you could do about it.
Yes, clutching, when your skill is greater than your opponents when outnumbered. One thing that would help promote clutch is diminishing returns on CC. I feel that’s the main issue. If one person can keep me CC’d most of the time, what can 2 or more do? There’s not enough easily available stability for all classes. I don’t think downed state is the issue.
EDIT: While we’re on the topic of it, I think level-up advantages should be removed in WvW. You shouldn’t have these random RNG level up benefits happen in the middle of a zerg fight. Leveling up not only does an AoE knockback and full-heal… but I could be in down-state, and across the map a camp gets captured that I helped… BAM I get xp, level up and rally. That had nothing to do with the engagement I was in, but it still was a factor in the outcome of the battle.
speaking to your edit. Tomes of knowledge should not be usable in combat. Hello full heal on everyone.
When I saw that they had been disabled my first thought was “I wonder what people were exploiting with them” It should have been obvious to me. At least it got fixed!
I play all the things 80. Pew Pew Pew. Killin joor commanders.
4 Warriors, 3 Rangers, 3 Mesmers, 2 Engineers, 2 Guardians, and Necro, Thf, Ele
-Beastygate Beast Milk, OG BG Veteran Native
[1] Down state is a mechanic to cap the power of highly skilled, experienced players. [2] If power scaled with skill, then 10 mans would be wiping 60 man zergs. Ditto for aoe caps. [3] A game that lets experienced/skilled players completely dominate would end up driving most people away, and become a niche game with a much smaller population.
Down state isn’t needed to cap player power. Limited player capability already does this
Power does scale with skill. But because players have limited capability, skill isn’t the only factor for determining combat and therefore quantity yields an advantage
True! However segregating players based on skill directly solves this problem
Power and skill do not scale on the same curve. Outnumbering your opponent gives a huge advantage by design, through mechanics like down state and in combat rezzing.
There have been other games such as Daoc where power and skill scaled much more in line with each other. A 10 man squad could take out a 100 man zerg. Not every day, but I saw it happen more then a few times. Unskilled, inexperienced players were at a huge disadvantage.
Down state plus low damage output/weak healing and high health pools is what makes superior numbers the first order optimal strategy. If you took out the down state, skill would become much more of a factor in most fights.
And in pvp that’s a good thing. That is what brings pvpers from other games that are to care-bearish to games that offer more in terms of skill.
If 10 people are good enough to beat odds even as much as 3 to 1, they deserve to win instead of just going “ok lets down as many people as we can we can’t possibly win this due to downed state” they should be able to go "ok lets try and kill all of them.
Without downed state for example a group of 10 people could charge into a group of 30 and have hope for winning. But with downed state that group of 30 not only has the advantage of superior numbers but also the advantage of more hands to res allies and more numbers to protect downed allies by pressuring stompers,interuptign stompers, stealthing/shielding/ aoeing all over the downed areas. This is unfair.
Why give handicap to those who already outnumber? I wish anet would answer that. THIS IS NOT HOW PVP WORKS
This post is a gem. I remember our well organized 2 group 16 man zerg in DAoC was able to take down 2 to 3 times our numbers because we were in vent together, organized, and played on a superior level.
This game has never given that kind of opportunity, and with downed state active, you have no hope of advancing a horribly outnumbered fight and taking the win.
Having the skill to play and know your class in DAoC made a huge difference, even in zerg fights. It would be nice to have that warm fuzzy feeling of knowing you played your best and won, rather than knowing no matter how well you play you won’t overcome a much a larger force in GW2.
Very well said Senjun. +1.
Thank you btw, replies like this make me feel good
Far too few have issues with the downed state. I think it’s fine as is.
The only people who don’t have an issue with downed/defeated state are the people who benefit from it which are the zerglings. So, yes… those who have an issue with it are in the minority.
Downed state is here to stay. What really needs to go is being able to revive people who have been spiked.
Far too few have issues with the downed state. I think it’s fine as is.
The only people who don’t have an issue with downed/defeated state are the people who benefit from it which are the zerglings. So, yes… those who have an issue with it are in the minority.
Downed state is here to stay. What really needs to go is being able to revive people who have been spiked.
Not true. Small roaming teams benefit as well. The only people who don’t benefit are solo roamers since there is no one to res them.
Far too few have issues with the downed state. I think it’s fine as is.
The only people who don’t have an issue with downed/defeated state are the people who benefit from it which are the zerglings. So, yes… those who have an issue with it are in the minority.
Downed state is here to stay. What really needs to go is being able to revive people who have been spiked.
Not true. Small roaming teams benefit as well. The only people who don’t benefit are solo roamers since there is no one to res them.
Well actually it benefits whoever has superior numbers.
This can be 20 vs 30 or 30 vs 50 Basically downed state in general favors whichever server has more players in wvwvw. A better chance some random thief will come by, shadow refuge you and res you up, or any profession interupt the stomper and pressure them so they have to decide do i stomp or do i live.
As a solo roamer sometimes i am downed and a team mate will show up out of the blue and save me or even a group of people. As much as i dislike that and i now have taken away a rightfully earned kill to someone. I’m not going to get mad at my team mates for doing so, I do feel like i should have already been dead though.
So it’s not just for solo roamers it’s in a way a pestilence to everyone at one time or another. Pvp should be unforgiving, skill should be the determining factor in a fight. that’s why i pvp daily. why is it so care-bearish?
I love that down state exists, it adds more elements of play. It brings in more strategy. I’ve often used downed teammates as bait so I can kill the person who downed them. Or I will use a downed enemy to bait his friend into trying to res him, then I beat up the guy ressing and I now have 2 kills!
The only real issue I have with down state is that it’s too easy to rally. In PvE I understand kill 1 mob, rally, ok. But in WvW you should have to meet some more criteria before you are allowed to rally off a certain target. I think either multiple targets should have to die to rally you. Or that you need to reach a higher damage threshold than just “tagging” someone. Possibly a combination of both.
As a WvW and sPvP player, I like that downed-state exists. I feel that the game meta would be so burst focused without it that it would be incredibly boring.
This. The downed state replaces the need for a dedicated healer class, and makes organized team play VERY rewarding, and also allows for organized teams to punish rezzing. It’s an active decision you have to make, and I can’t fathom why these threads still pop up every week. It’s part of the game and is actually one of the KEY things that makes PvP fun to spectate.
I love that down state exists, it adds more elements of play. It brings in more strategy. I’ve often used downed teammates as bait so I can kill the person who downed them. Or I will use a downed enemy to bait his friend into trying to res him, then I beat up the guy ressing and I now have 2 kills!
The only real issue I have with down state is that it’s too easy to rally. In PvE I understand kill 1 mob, rally, ok. But in WvW you should have to meet some more criteria before you are allowed to rally off a certain target. I think either multiple targets should have to die to rally you. Or that you need to reach a higher damage threshold than just “tagging” someone. Possibly a combination of both.
As a WvW and sPvP player, I like that downed-state exists. I feel that the game meta would be so burst focused without it that it would be incredibly boring.
This. The downed state replaces the need for a dedicated healer class, and makes organized team play VERY rewarding, and also allows for organized teams to punish rezzing. It’s an active decision you have to make, and I can’t fathom why these threads still pop up every week. It’s part of the game and is actually one of the KEY things that makes PvP fun to spectate.
Watching someone you just slammed into the ground get back up in 5 seconds is SO rewarding and entertaining, do go on.
Anarai Aeonblade [GASM] – Guardian – DB
RIP my fair Engi and Ranger, you will be missed.
I love that down state exists, it adds more elements of play. It brings in more strategy. I’ve often used downed teammates as bait so I can kill the person who downed them. Or I will use a downed enemy to bait his friend into trying to res him, then I beat up the guy ressing and I now have 2 kills!
The only real issue I have with down state is that it’s too easy to rally. In PvE I understand kill 1 mob, rally, ok. But in WvW you should have to meet some more criteria before you are allowed to rally off a certain target. I think either multiple targets should have to die to rally you. Or that you need to reach a higher damage threshold than just “tagging” someone. Possibly a combination of both.
As a WvW and sPvP player, I like that downed-state exists. I feel that the game meta would be so burst focused without it that it would be incredibly boring.
This. The downed state replaces the need for a dedicated healer class, and makes organized team play VERY rewarding, and also allows for organized teams to punish rezzing. It’s an active decision you have to make, and I can’t fathom why these threads still pop up every week. It’s part of the game and is actually one of the KEY things that makes PvP fun to spectate.
Watching someone you just slammed into the ground get back up in 5 seconds is SO rewarding and entertaining, do go on.
This made me see the potential for many good downed state willy wonka memes
As a ranger, I just wish the down state would just disappear in WvW so I can die with dignity. I always get stomped before skills 3 and 4 time out. Skills 1 and 2 are useless against overpowered opponents. So when I get downed, I really have no choice but spam the spawn WP rather than see a cow taking a dump on my dead face. Your costly finishers go to waste with me.
If its not getting removed, how about we just pretend it doesn’t exist.
Start a movement that:
Don’t use any of the downed skills when killed (no attacking or healing, just bleed out).
Don’t rez anyone.
Don’t stomp anyone.
Basically treat it like a rez timer. If you are downed and happen to get hit by AOE you get a slightly shorter rez timer.
We’d kitten outselves in the process btw just did a 2v5 and literally had to drop 1 of them like 3 or 4 times before he actually died. Everytime we downed thief/mesmer would stealth their team mate. Such BS. Instead of dropping him repeatedly he should just die the first time around.
Nothing we can do when 4 people jump on him instantly as soon as hes downed. If this is the type of pvp gw2 promotes i can see why the pvp community is starting to dwindle compared to what it was when the game first came out, which wasnt all that long ago mind you. A game should be able to keep it’s pvp community satisfied but it looks like anet is catering moreso to the pver’s who are like “you know i think ill pvp with my friends today” if you stand there stationary clicking your abilities you deserve to die not be spam ressed by team mates just for the simple fact you have greater numbers.
Again… this is not how pvp works. Reward the skilled, encourage the unskilled to get better. Thats how pvp works, downed state makes them lazy especially zergers.
Downed state is a mechanic to help casuals and zerging. Rallying intensifies it and adds a layer of exclusion an insecurity. Both should be gone, but rallying would also be a good candidate to get the boot.
People disagreeing are suffering from the normal side effects of gamers being afraid of any change. The utility and positioning tax on committing to a stake is a straight advantage to the side that has more utilities (aka, more players~!) and can afford to be in more controlling positions (aka, side with more players~!)
OP just take solace in that you’re right, but in this forum you’ll get a LOT of resistance from people that prefer a casual gamestyle because this is ultimately a very low skill cap game. Anet wants it to stay casual friendly, so downed state will stick around.
There’s a higher chance of getting rallying removed, because that can objectively be seen as good for both the people that want a better game and people that just want to play casually.
Downed state is a mechanic to help casuals and zerging. Rallying intensifies it and adds a layer of exclusion an insecurity. Both should be gone, but rallying would also be a good candidate to get the boot.
People disagreeing are suffering from the normal side effects of gamers being afraid of any change. The utility and positioning tax on committing to a stake is a straight advantage to the side that has more utilities (aka, more players~!) and can afford to be in more controlling positions (aka, side with more players~!)
OP just take solace in that you’re right, but in this forum you’ll get a LOT of resistance from people that prefer a casual gamestyle because this is ultimately a very low skill cap game. Anet wants it to stay casual friendly, so downed state will stick around.
There’s a higher chance of getting rallying removed, because that can objectively be seen as good for both the people that want a better game and people that just want to play casually.
I’m afraid you’re right but hopefully Anet see’s this and reads through everything. They should at the very least TALK about the state of pvp and how downed-state + rally is effecting competitive play.
When even just the minority of people in support of downed state say something like “skill being the overwhelming determining factor for victory in pvp is a bad thing” it kind of makes me lose hope for the future of gw2’s pvp community. Are these the people Anet listens to when thinking about pvp?
You’re just going to have a pve community that wants to run around and fight keep lords all day at this rate. For what it’s worth I’m glad to the people who support me in the efforts to get downed state removed and i love all of your examples as to why it’s unfair (so similar to my own) and I’m going to continue to try and get my point across while I actively play this game.
I feel that the game meta would be so burst focused without it that it would be incredibly boring.
You have it backwards. Downed state is what allows burst classes to exist. If you removed or disabled downed state, you’d be obliged to re-balance time-to-kill to be longer, eg: increased HP across the board by 10%.
Lol anet can’t make money off of their finishers if they remove downed state (;
Anet has no plans on removing it. They mentioned months and months ago about changing it but has yet to do it or even speak of it again.
Me too. Only people who have a problem with downed state are zerglings who die when they fight us 20 v 5. They burst one, he goes down, we CC them and bam they’re dead.
I say buff downed state so you aren’t able to stomp anymore!
Like others have said, its not downed state that is the problem. Its how quickly you can be rezzed from down thus negating the utilities that actually do this and the fact that rally is not one to one. The fact that five people rally off of one death tacitly favors have large groups.
limit the speed at which you can be healed well in downed state to make tacking the abilities that rez people more appealing.
Also, poison on the revivers and downed player, profit.
I would be willing to play almost any game as long as it doesn’t have downstate and rally systems. This casual clusterkitten is just too funny to be competitive.
As a ranger, I just wish the down state would just disappear in WvW so I can die with dignity. I always get stomped before skills 3 and 4 time out. Skills 1 and 2 are useless against overpowered opponents. So when I get downed, I really have no choice but spam the spawn WP rather than see a cow taking a dump on my dead face. Your costly finishers go to waste with me.
Try playing an eng or necro. Your downed state won’t look so bad then.
