Old Style Waypoints

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Posted by: Svarty.8019

Svarty.8019

Back in the day, people could put (with considerable time and effort) waypoints in keeps they held in enemy areas. This was great in terms of fun but once established, it was very difficult to get rid of these footholds. Doing so gave a sense of achievement.

The downside to Old Style Waypoints was that they were often placed by servers who were dominant and during nightcaps. You could wake up and find your map has 3 enemy waypoints on it. This could discourage some people from playing WvW altogether.

So my question is: how do we get

  • the sense of achievement back,
  • the convenience of an emergency waypoint (which I’ve only ever seen 1 built)
  • without giving an advantage to servers who would already dominate?
Nobody at Anet loves WvW like Grouch loved PvP. That’s what we need, a WvW Grouch, but taller.

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Posted by: FogLeg.9354

FogLeg.9354

The cost/time of upgrades and rewards for capturing objectives should depend on how much you already control.

Lets say you control 1 keep and you start to build waypoint. It will cost 1g and will take 1 hour. Now suppose you control 6 keeps (in any of the maps), building new waypoint will cost 30g and will take 30 hours. Same with all the upgrades for camps, towers, keeps. Dominating server should find it increasingly more difficult to control most of the objectives. In perfect scenario all 3 servers will finish with score very close to each other, instead of half the points like we commonly have now.

Same way rewards depend on how much objectives you control. You capture your first keep, you get x amount of gold and chests and xp. However, if you already control 10 keeps, you get very little rewards. It would be perfectly fine to remove all rewards once your server has already taken 50% of all objectives.

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

- Remove emergency waypoints. They are kittened.
- Revert the waypoints to pre-HoT but add them to T4 which require an additional amount of dollys.
- Revert the “bugfix” with contest intervals.

The thing is, sure the waypoints gave an advantage and they did make it difficult sometimes… But for good or bad they also did something else: encouraged massive PvP in both assault and defense of waypointed keeps. If your keep had a waypoint, you wanted to defend it at all costs. If the enemy had a waypoint, you wanted to reset it at all costs.

Todays WvW lost a big chunk of its heart and soul when Anet in their glorious wisdom changed this.

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Posted by: HazyDaisy.4107

HazyDaisy.4107

+infinity Dawdler. As disheartening as it was to see enemy wps in home bl, you definately heard 1 voice of the home server screaming NOT IN MY HOUSE! These fights now, have nothing on enemy wp fights of yesterday. Plus, as a capper, even if you couldn’t stick long enough to que a wp, draining supply with 1 or 2 upgrades was satisfaction enough.

Sorrows Furnace
[HaHa] Hazardous Hallucination

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Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

While the intensity is a bit lower (perhaps due to lower population overall?), the waypoint fights still exist. Now, they happen immediately rather than after a night crew sets them up. Additionally, invaders gain an immediate advantage which is amazingly potent given that it’s more difficult to run from corner spawns to northern objectives.

Thus, I don’t think we an fault the new style with destroying WP fights. There’s still incentive and, if anything, it is greater than before when trying to destroy an enemy WP on your home BL.

As for allied WPs, allowing them to pop back immediately means the home server can recover from a bad period more quickly. One empty hour no longer means that your BL is out of reach for another half a day.

I’d love to see discussion on this, but perhaps it would be more productive if it considered every point instead of just lamented what was lost?

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Posted by: Puck.9612

Puck.9612

While the intensity is a bit lower (perhaps due to lower population overall?), the waypoint fights still exist. Now, they happen immediately rather than after a night crew sets them up. Additionally, invaders gain an immediate advantage which is amazingly potent given that it’s more difficult to run from corner spawns to northern objectives.

Thus, I don’t think we an fault the new style with destroying WP fights. There’s still incentive and, if anything, it is greater than before when trying to destroy an enemy WP on your home BL.

As for allied WPs, allowing them to pop back immediately means the home server can recover from a bad period more quickly. One empty hour no longer means that your BL is out of reach for another half a day.

I’d love to see discussion on this, but perhaps it would be more productive if it considered every point instead of just lamented what was lost?

Player A: “Guys our way pointed keep is under attack!”

Player B: “Who cares we’ll just flip it back, it’s not like we had to invest any time or effort into getting it.”

Player A: “Oh yeah I forgot, I guess just keep the k-train rolling then.”

Jim Hunter when my other account isn’t suspended

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Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

@Puck
That’s a problem with the people, not the system. There’s ample reason to defend a keep besides having achieved a waypoint. To list a few: Better walls, built siege, difficulty in retaking versus difficulty of holding. Of course, I doubt you personally are motivated by those things, but it’s not fair to say that they don’t exist.

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Posted by: X T D.6458

X T D.6458

The only keep that should have been changed in regards to waypoints is Garrison. I understand your point of nightcapping and building waypoints on enemy bl’s discouraging players, so maybe a compromise. Perhaps change it so only garrisons can have a waypoint built by the home server. The waypoints in other keeps should be reverted back, having an instant waypoint is utterly ridiculous. It makes people feel like they dont actually control their own home bl’s, and encourages players to cap and leave and not worry about trying to devout time, resources, and manpower to upgrade it.

I say what needs to be said, get used to it.
Honesty is not insulting, stupidity is.
>Class Balance is a Joke<

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Posted by: Jayne.9251

Jayne.9251

I want the old home BL WPs back.

L’enfer, c’est les autres

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

How about something in general? People complain about the automated upgrades, I think they have their advantages.
But something tied to the outnumbered buff that could apply to keeps etc as well.
If you have the outnumbered buff, structures on your BL or in your corner on EB will upgrade faster/automatically upgrade. But they will never upgrade faster if you’re on another BL/in another corner, no matter whether or not you have the buff.
Just throwing that in here..

ETA: But for that maybe the buff needs to be cahnged as as far as I know only one server can have it and sometimes one server is greatly outnumbering both other servers.

(edited by Jana.6831)

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Posted by: Gatvin.6510

Gatvin.6510

Waypoints are the key to encouraging direct engagement with enemy armies. I’d like to see waypoints become high-supply-cost siege weapons that are capped at three per map and can be destroyed by enemy teams.

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Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

Waypoints are the key to encouraging direct engagement with enemy armies. I’d like to see waypoints become high-supply-cost siege weapons that are capped at three per map and can be destroyed by enemy teams.

I literally just had that idea, more or less.

I prefer making them cost supply to use but not be capped so that some troll can’t just build 3 in a useless place and screw the whole server. Also, I didn’t want to replace the Rampart waypoint, just add to it.

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Posted by: joneirikb.7506

joneirikb.7506

Personally I like the new WP system, I think the problem is the Borderland system (as I’ve detailed other places, so won’t repeat).

If the populations was higher, and enough people wanted to play on the Desert BL maps, I think it could be really nice to see everyone trying to hold their keep in each of the 3 maps. Instead of sitting bunkering one entire map just waiting for enemies to come in.

I obviously realize others completely disagree with me on this.

Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
“Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.”
“The objective is to win. The goal is to have fun.”

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

Personally I like the new WP system, I think the problem is the Borderland system (as I’ve detailed other places, so won’t repeat).

If the populations was higher, and enough people wanted to play on the Desert BL maps, I think it could be really nice to see everyone trying to hold their keep in each of the 3 maps. Instead of sitting bunkering one entire map just waiting for enemies to come in.

I obviously realize others completely disagree with me on this.

Or as many others have said, if DBL had the same layout as EB that would be nice.

But on a border, you should bunker up.

That’s how pre-HoT WvW worked. Either you defended home border or you invaded another servers border. Now its like yeah I’m going home to k-train cap everything and hope they dont bunker in their keeps.

So you’re not entirely wrong, you’re just not talking about borders. You are talking about EB.

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Posted by: Puck.9612

Puck.9612

@Puck
That’s a problem with the people, not the system. There’s ample reason to defend a keep besides having achieved a waypoint. To list a few: Better walls, built siege, difficulty in retaking versus difficulty of holding. Of course, I doubt you personally are motivated by those things, but it’s not fair to say that they don’t exist.

You are talking about busting upgrades which now has nothing to do with the wp’s. The only way your argument works is if you are only talking about sm.

Pre HoT the majority of my game time was spent hitting hills and bay. I could spend hours tapping all the keeps, setting up sneaky catas to drain supply, keeping the camps flipped and sniping yaks. There was a good number of times when I’d get in and kill the few defenders and flip it before their zerg arrived. There was also a lot of times where I had to call in a guild and we’d have an epic fight.

None of this happens now. Fire and air wp’s don’t belong to the home server, and no one put any effort into building them. There is no reason for roamers to devote the time and effort it takes to slowly bust a T3 keep.

Keeps are taken now if you have overwhelming numbers. If they put up a solid defense you just move on because they only matter for ppt.

Jim Hunter when my other account isn’t suspended

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Posted by: Trajan.4953

Trajan.4953

Tactivators can make waypoints anywhere for the massive cost that guilds absorbed to get most of the stuff THEY ALREADY HAD BEFORE HOT.

yes, I am bitter.

CCCP….

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Posted by: Gunner Morton.8340

Gunner Morton.8340

Would like old style waypoints back.

I used to play WvW on Gunnar’s Hold, then I took a flawed serverlink to the knee.

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

The new WP system along with emergency WPs on the old BLs would work pretty well.

“Back in the day” the WPs ended up being perma-contested and only offered a few seconds after the timer before they locked up again. Basically zergs had to run from spawn or wait for the window to WP. The new system isn’t much different except the emergency WP is on a much longer timer.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

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Posted by: Sich.7103

Sich.7103

Emergency WP and all other guild upgrade should be removed….
We had cost upgrade, now we have guild upgrade cost…. We have lost in the change…
And this will only force players to join big guild, and need a lot of pve grind…
And seriously, those pve grindable upgrade have no place for me in WvW….

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Posted by: misterman.1530

misterman.1530

I like the idea of WPs being like siege. They need to be built.

I would go further. Any siege, including cannons and mortars, can be used by any server. If you take over a fully upgraded SM, then any cannons, mortars, and siege left behind is yours to use. The exception being the WP. Maybe upon the capture of the keep, the WP would explode – damaging the walls and gates back to standard. It would be an interesting graphic sequence to see.

Open world siege (rams, catas, etc) can also be used by anyone. The server that built the siege has the option of dismantling (which returns a certain % of supply). This takes time – it won’t be instantaneous.

The fight dynamic will change dramatically. Can you imagine the siege at SM outer all of a sudden being used by an enemy server by turning towards inner SM?

There would also need to be some sort of ability to hit siege with other siege. Not sure how that would work (you would want to avoid damaging siege your own server was using).

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Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

@Puck
That’s a problem with the people, not the system. There’s ample reason to defend a keep besides having achieved a waypoint. To list a few: Better walls, built siege, difficulty in retaking versus difficulty of holding. Of course, I doubt you personally are motivated by those things, but it’s not fair to say that they don’t exist.

You are talking about busting upgrades which now has nothing to do with the wp’s. The only way your argument works is if you are only talking about sm.

Pre HoT the majority of my game time was spent hitting hills and bay. I could spend hours tapping all the keeps, setting up sneaky catas to drain supply, keeping the camps flipped and sniping yaks. There was a good number of times when I’d get in and kill the few defenders and flip it before their zerg arrived. There was also a lot of times where I had to call in a guild and we’d have an epic fight.

None of this happens now. Fire and air wp’s don’t belong to the home server, and no one put any effort into building them. There is no reason for roamers to devote the time and effort it takes to slowly bust a T3 keep.

Keeps are taken now if you have overwhelming numbers. If they put up a solid defense you just move on because they only matter for ppt.

Just yesterday, I devoted time and effort to push enemies out of our Airkeep. I flipped camps, sniped yaks and set up sneaky catas until I had the place drained of supply and without an outer wall. Then, I let a guild know and they came by to break inner and flip it. I was motivated by popping the enemy WP in Airkeep so that they could no longer threaten our northern triangle so easily. It worked well in that I was then able to defend against enemy pushes because I could predict their movements more easily.

Until I had to log off, I defended the keep in order to get it upgraded so that it could better withstand sieges and would take longer to blitz in case I was caught doing something elsewhere. Also, I wanted to make sure that the enemies wouldn’t be able to take and upgrade it before someone came to replace me.

Anyway, my point is that there is still ample reason to attack/defend the side keeps. The WPs are part of it, albeit a smaller part than before.

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Posted by: Puck.9612

Puck.9612

@Puck
That’s a problem with the people, not the system. There’s ample reason to defend a keep besides having achieved a waypoint. To list a few: Better walls, built siege, difficulty in retaking versus difficulty of holding. Of course, I doubt you personally are motivated by those things, but it’s not fair to say that they don’t exist.

You are talking about busting upgrades which now has nothing to do with the wp’s. The only way your argument works is if you are only talking about sm.

Pre HoT the majority of my game time was spent hitting hills and bay. I could spend hours tapping all the keeps, setting up sneaky catas to drain supply, keeping the camps flipped and sniping yaks. There was a good number of times when I’d get in and kill the few defenders and flip it before their zerg arrived. There was also a lot of times where I had to call in a guild and we’d have an epic fight.

None of this happens now. Fire and air wp’s don’t belong to the home server, and no one put any effort into building them. There is no reason for roamers to devote the time and effort it takes to slowly bust a T3 keep.

Keeps are taken now if you have overwhelming numbers. If they put up a solid defense you just move on because they only matter for ppt.

Just yesterday, I devoted time and effort to push enemies out of our Airkeep. I flipped camps, sniped yaks and set up sneaky catas until I had the place drained of supply and without an outer wall. Then, I let a guild know and they came by to break inner and flip it. I was motivated by popping the enemy WP in Airkeep so that they could no longer threaten our northern triangle so easily. It worked well in that I was then able to defend against enemy pushes because I could predict their movements more easily.

Until I had to log off, I defended the keep in order to get it upgraded so that it could better withstand sieges and would take longer to blitz in case I was caught doing something elsewhere. Also, I wanted to make sure that the enemies wouldn’t be able to take and upgrade it before someone came to replace me.

Anyway, my point is that there is still ample reason to attack/defend the side keeps. The WPs are part of it, albeit a smaller part than before.

And if they took it back they would immediately have their wp again.
I hope you had fun babysitting an empty keep, I’m sure anyone that saw it was defended simply moved on because they knew no matter how many hours you sat in it you could never set up a wp for your server.

Jim Hunter when my other account isn’t suspended

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Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

I had to leave about an hour after taking it. During that time, there was a roaming pair that took the SEC a few times and tried to head north, but I was able to separate and kill them twice. There was a solo roamer that attempted to cata the south wall from a high spot but I had a ballista ready because the place had already been used a bunch throughout the week.