Guild Wars 2

So today I was randomly thinking about the difference in open world wvw and gvg comps and then got onto thinking about things, like how a bad guardian would be better in a zerg, compared to a bad mesmer or (in my opinion) a bad warrior. This in turn went onto thinking about how these opinions would shift in regards to the classes being played at their skill cap.

TL:DR What class, when played to it’s skill cap, do you think would add the most value to a zerg?

if played to the skill cap? for zerg value?
Guard
Rev (Midline/ and or Support)
Druid (If played at skill cap otherwise putting at the bottom above thief)(support)
Ele (support)
Necro (Dps)
Warrior (Dps)
Engi
Mesmer (Support)
Thief (who cares)

Ty dude, the exact kind of reply I wanted. For sake of discussion though, what were the reasons for your top 3? And what does druid bring to the table that puts it in 3rd?

if you consider skillcap
Mesmer (dps)
Revenant (durability mallyx/dwarf)
Warrior (dps)
Scrapper (supersspeed build)
Reaper (condi or power with wells)
Guardian/melee-ele
staff ele
Druid
Thief

Reason eles and guards rate so low is because they’re mostly based on gear/traits, which are wrong for most people. other than that its just simple rotations that you’re not punished too much doing in wrong order.

Guardian is just counting condis, cc rotating, using AH properly and dodging to tag.
Staff-ele is just burning retreat meteor combos and staying 1200 range fighting enemy ranged, during pushes it can be tricky but as long as you learn to burning retreat/hug sides its super easy. Anyone can play nomad heal ele as its just rotating auras so dont overlap same aura at same time.

Wars, Revs and Mesmers all focus on generating downs, which means they have to enter much more dangerous zones without dying, which makes assessing the situation and skill rotations much more important. Mesmer highest because you literally get blown up for 1 mistake (or you dont contribute to fight at all because you play too passive). Necro generates downs too but you dont have to think too much outside optimal dps rotation because guardians are carrying you boonwise

Scrapper is just great solo support providing superspeed, stealth and waters to all melee capable of finishing every down even off tag. Unfortunately you dont need more than 1 of them.

Druid is easy, you just stealth allies, ress and heal with 0 chance of dying with correct positioning. Thief umm, has no value unless premade in focusparty, and mesmer is a better choice for that

This list is not about team comp, you still need plenty of guardians, however its more important to have good revs/wars/mesmers/reapers than guardians.

BearlyLucid.3647:

Ty dude, the exact kind of reply I wanted. For sake of discussion though, what were the reasons for your top 3? And what does druid bring to the table that puts it in 3rd?

For me I like to focus on sustain first rather then damage so

Guard – Your Zerg Forefront, best and most suitable for a zerg play Ie. stab cleanses
Rev – AoEs boons and suitable for Support play and damage play Ie. Resistance
Druid – If play extremely well currently best healing ingame otherwise I don’t trust them – I trust maybe 2 druids to do this
Ele – Best Overall Support Heals, Cleanses, Auras

Threather.9354:

if you consider skillcap
Mesmer (dps)
Revenant (durability mallyx/dwarf)
Warrior (dps)
Scrapper (supersspeed build)
Reaper (condi or power with wells)
Guardian/melee-ele
staff ele
Druid
Thief

Reason eles and guards rate so low is because they’re mostly based on gear/traits, which are wrong for most people. other than that its just simple rotations that you’re not punished too much doing in wrong order.

Guardian is just counting condis, cc rotating, using AH properly and dodging to tag.
Staff-ele is just burning retreat meteor combos and staying 1200 range fighting enemy ranged, during pushes it can be tricky but as long as you learn to burning retreat/hug sides its super easy. Anyone can play nomad heal ele as its just rotating auras so dont overlap same aura at same time.

Wars, Revs and Mesmers all focus on generating downs, which means they have to enter much more dangerous zones without dying, which makes assessing the situation and skill rotations much more important. Mesmer highest because you literally get blown up for 1 mistake (or you dont contribute to fight at all because you play too passive). Necro generates downs too but you dont have to think too much outside optimal dps rotation because guardians are carrying you boonwise

Scrapper is just great solo support providing superspeed, stealth and waters to all melee capable of finishing every down even off tag. Unfortunately you dont need more than 1 of them.

Druid is easy, you just stealth allies, ress and heal with 0 chance of dying with correct positioning. Thief umm, has no value unless premade in focusparty, and mesmer is a better choice for that

This list is not about team comp, you still need plenty of guardians, however its more important to have good revs/wars/mesmers/reapers than guardians.

Correct me if I’m wrong here but you appear to be focusing more on which classes have a higher skill cap in your list of reasons but don’t seem to mention what they bring by being played at said skill cap.

For example you’re reasoning for mesmer being at the top of your list is due to the risk of being 1 shotted or not contributing to a fight if your positioning is incorrect. What I’m asking for really is, when these classes ARE played at said skill cap, which of them adds the most value (so going off the mesmer still, your reasons could be because played to it’s skill cap they would have constant quickness/alacricity upkeep while still maximizing their own dps and offering portal/viels that a commander could only dream of, compared to a run of the mill player)

Boon Corrupt Reaper.

Anyone can do damage,
Anyone can put out support (offensive or defensive)

Only reaper can boon corrupt and a reaper that can do it well will rend enemies offensive and defensive boons while putting out debuffs.

It is a shame so many focus on tagging things with marks and wells for loot. They could be doing so much more.

QuickRain.4735:

if played to the skill cap? for zerg value?
Guard
Rev (Midline/ and or Support)
Druid (If played at skill cap otherwise putting at the bottom above thief)(support)
Ele (support)
Necro (Dps)
Warrior (Dps)
Mesmer (Support)
Thief (who cares)
Engie (the class people forget)

Fixed.

Anyway, GREN remain the core meta. No other classes are needed unless you want to fancy it up with focus parties or dedicated emergency banners/veils. Dont really need to though.

BearlyLucid.3647:

Threather.9354:

if you consider skillcap
Mesmer (dps)
Revenant (durability mallyx/dwarf)
Warrior (dps)
Scrapper (supersspeed build)
Reaper (condi or power with wells)
Guardian/melee-ele
staff ele
Druid
Thief

Reason eles and guards rate so low is because they’re mostly based on gear/traits, which are wrong for most people. other than that its just simple rotations that you’re not punished too much doing in wrong order.

Guardian is just counting condis, cc rotating, using AH properly and dodging to tag.
Staff-ele is just burning retreat meteor combos and staying 1200 range fighting enemy ranged, during pushes it can be tricky but as long as you learn to burning retreat/hug sides its super easy. Anyone can play nomad heal ele as its just rotating auras so dont overlap same aura at same time.

Wars, Revs and Mesmers all focus on generating downs, which means they have to enter much more dangerous zones without dying, which makes assessing the situation and skill rotations much more important. Mesmer highest because you literally get blown up for 1 mistake (or you dont contribute to fight at all because you play too passive). Necro generates downs too but you dont have to think too much outside optimal dps rotation because guardians are carrying you boonwise

Scrapper is just great solo support providing superspeed, stealth and waters to all melee capable of finishing every down even off tag. Unfortunately you dont need more than 1 of them.

Druid is easy, you just stealth allies, ress and heal with 0 chance of dying with correct positioning. Thief umm, has no value unless premade in focusparty, and mesmer is a better choice for that

This list is not about team comp, you still need plenty of guardians, however its more important to have good revs/wars/mesmers/reapers than guardians.

Correct me if I’m wrong here but you appear to be focusing more on which classes have a higher skill cap in your list of reasons but don’t seem to mention what they bring by being played at said skill cap.

For example you’re reasoning for mesmer being at the top of your list is due to the risk of being 1 shotted or not contributing to a fight if your positioning is incorrect. What I’m asking for really is, when these classes ARE played at said skill cap, which of them adds the most value (so going off the mesmer still, your reasons could be because played to it’s skill cap they would have constant quickness/alacricity upkeep while still maximizing their own dps and offering portal/viels that a commander could only dream of, compared to a run of the mill player)

Well i didnt want to type too much, besically mesmer is gravity well on well bombs to lock people in, burst casters down with GS 2 4 3 blink shatter combo or sword 33 shatter combo. Save sword 2 for defensive usage…. Use veil correctly, etc etc. If id make a long list about warrior hammer skills and stuff it doesnt really matter.
Anyways each class mechanics and role are explained in the spreadsheet that is on my signature. Dont really want to list it all again.

That would be necro, followed by mesmer and ele.

Mesmers and eles are useless when played poorly. Mesmers bring a ton of utility, such as things like veil which can stealth an entire zerg, but a lot of it is on long cooldowns, and so the cool story is that you can’t screw up. Good mesmersthat do make it count are an eternal thorn in the enemy’s side.

Eles are more forgiving for their cooldowns, but they can die if their caught out of attunement. A bad ele can stay alive, but they do nothing because they spend 90% of their time spamming their cooldowns to stay alive. A good ele does this while supporting their crew.

And of course, given the recent QQ, the winner is necro. A bad necro can do good damage, but often ends up a rallybot because necros are weak to CC and focus. Those usually just QQ about lack of escapes and switch to a Rev. A few good necros only get in danger when needed and can easily tear apart disorganized groups. It would be wise to kill these on sight.

As long as these players have a decent meatshield of plebs on guardians and revs pressing 1 and staying relatively together, they will generally help bring swift defeat to unsuspecting foes who will promptly post in this subforum demanding nerfs. Oh wait.

BearlyLucid.3647:

So today I was randomly thinking about the difference in open world wvw and gvg comps and then got onto thinking about things, like how a bad guardian would be better in a zerg, compared to a bad mesmer or (in my opinion) a bad warrior. This in turn went onto thinking about how these opinions would shift in regards to the classes being played at their skill cap.

TL:DR What class, when played to it’s skill cap, do you think would add the most value to a zerg?

Interesting. The comparison comes down to what classes button mash still supports group makeup when face rolling. Guardian fist smashing keyboard is still likely to throw some stability/ heals vs a selfish built war isn’t contributing to group at all. However I’d attest that the skill floor to be a O.K. war is really low and such it would be a very very bad player to pull off being a bad war. It’s a bit apples and oranges. A great warrior has a completely different role in a group then a guardian.

Skill cap eh…ermm….that would be chrono, it will bring the highest value to the squad if played by a pro.

Dawdler.8521:

QuickRain.4735:

if played to the skill cap? for zerg value?
Guard
Rev (Midline/ and or Support)
Druid (If played at skill cap otherwise putting at the bottom above thief)(support)
Ele (support)
Necro (Dps)
Warrior (Dps)
Mesmer (Support)
Thief (who cares)
Engie (the class people forget)

Fixed.

Anyway, GREN remain the core meta. No other classes are needed unless you want to fancy it up with focus parties or dedicated emergency banners/veils. Dont really need to though.

dang I did forget Engie which is surprising since we usually use one, But Engie is more meant for Skill play then zerging Ie. GvGs and such the Gyros bring a lot like stealthing targets and or downs

Staff guardian get lot’s of bags

I’m not sure if it’s due to EU culture being different but the builds, tactics, and role you guys have assigned to Mesmer are completely contrary to their top-end NA counterparts. Shatter doesn’t put enough AoE damage to be viable for large scale. The extra damage of great sword doesn’t outweigh the utility of staff. Chaos/Insp/Chrono IS the cookie-cutter build for a reason, and the allocation of stats for gearing must reflect that.

There are other insights but to get back on topic once you have the correct build, tactics, and understand your role it’s actually NOT that difficult to pick things up. There’s a few L2P issues with maximizing your rotation and positioning but it’s not rocket science. This would suggest that large scale Mesmer has a relatively shorter skill cap than some of the other professions, i.e., investing additional time/effort in Mesmer to “get gud” once you’re already decent doesn’t pay off as well.

So large scale Mesmer has a smaller skill cap or ceiling, but what about its impact on a zerg’s success, “when played to it’s skill cap”? I think its contribution is significant, definitely in the top third. The extra utility is simply jaw dropping, whether it’s superior mobility, healing the train, or detargetting. Capable Mesmers are sharing every boon in the game, including quickness, resistance, and stability. These are things that can change the outcome of a fight more than the incremental benefits you would get from other classes.

QuickRain.4735:

if played to the skill cap? for zerg value?
Guard
Rev (Midline/ and or Support)
Druid (If played at skill cap otherwise putting at the bottom above thief)(support)
Ele (support)
Necro (Dps)
Warrior (Dps)
Mesmer (Support)
Thief (who cares)

Guard
Rev (Midline / and or Support)
Druid (support)
Ele (support)
Necro (Dps)
Mesmer (Support)
Engineer (Frontline support)
Thief
Warrior

I agree with your arrangement for the most part but I believe Warrior is worse than Thief to be honest. They’re just meatshields now and 95% of them will be glassy providing nothing other than a few seconds of damage before they die or need to retreat and recover. Thieves can have a lot of use if they’re played properly but most people will stick to the backline and do nothing of value. Since we’re talking about to maximum potential, a smart and skilled Thief can easily assault the backline, grab stomps, provide Venom support and with the right build, even one shot commanders (there are videos of people doing this on Youtube).

Also you forgot Engineer. They are definitely a mixed bag in terms of support but they can provide it in their own ways and quite effectively if done right. Although Engineer’s support is more valuable in smaller scale than large, they can frontline quite effectively, provide a decent uptime of Superspeed, good cleanse, good heals, lots of CC and can self support without needing to be in a sub-squad with a Revenant.

I’m not trying to disprove anything you’ve said as again, I mostly agree. I just think that a couple of these classes need to be swapped around if talking maximum potential. I’ve seen a zerging Thief sniping backliners and revive supporting and I’ve seen/been frontline Engineer. It can really make a difference but you won’t see it often enough to notice most likely.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

QuickRain.4735:

if played to the skill cap? for zerg value?
Guard
Rev (Midline/ and or Support)
Druid (If played at skill cap otherwise putting at the bottom above thief)(support)
Ele (support)
Necro (Dps)
Warrior (Dps)
Mesmer (Support)
Thief (who cares)

Guard
Rev (Midline / and or Support)
Druid (support)
Ele (support)
Necro (Dps)
Mesmer (Support)
Engineer (Frontline support)
Thief
Warrior

I agree with your arrangement for the most part but I believe Warrior is worse than Thief to be honest. They’re just meatshields now and 95% of them will be glassy providing nothing other than a few seconds of damage before they die or need to retreat and recover. Thieves can have a lot of use if they’re played properly but most people will stick to the backline and do nothing of value. Since we’re talking about to maximum potential, a smart and skilled Thief can easily assault the backline, grab stomps, provide Venom support and with the right build, even one shot commanders (there are videos of people doing this on Youtube).

Also you forgot Engineer. They are definitely a mixed bag in terms of support but they can provide it in their own ways and quite effectively if done right. Although Engineer’s support is more valuable in smaller scale than large, they can frontline quite effectively, provide a decent uptime of Superspeed, good cleanse, good heals, lots of CC and can self support without needing to be in a sub-squad with a Revenant.

I’m not trying to disprove anything you’ve said as again, I mostly agree. I just think that a couple of these classes need to be swapped around if talking maximum potential. I’ve seen a zerging Thief sniping backliners and revive supporting and I’ve seen/been frontline Engineer. It can really make a difference but you won’t see it often enough to notice most likely.

I was also factoring in the possible changes from the patch a lil bit ago IE shout warrior although its not dps and it has a banner if used making it higher then thief but I agree with Engi placement since I forgot to place it, and tbh I just don’t trust thief gameplay in a “team” setting

Guard
Rev (Midline/ and or Support)
Druid (If played at skill cap otherwise putting at the bottom above thief)(support)
Ele (support)
Necro (Dps)
Warrior (Dps)
Mesmer (Support)
Engi
Thief (who cares)

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

QuickRain.4735:

if played to the skill cap? for zerg value?
Guard
Rev (Midline/ and or Support)
Druid (If played at skill cap otherwise putting at the bottom above thief)(support)
Ele (support)
Necro (Dps)
Warrior (Dps)
Mesmer (Support)
Thief (who cares)

Guard
Rev (Midline / and or Support)
Druid (support)
Ele (support)
Necro (Dps)
Mesmer (Support)
Engineer (Frontline support)
Thief
Warrior

I agree with your arrangement for the most part but I believe Warrior is worse than Thief to be honest. They’re just meatshields now and 95% of them will be glassy providing nothing other than a few seconds of damage before they die or need to retreat and recover. Thieves can have a lot of use if they’re played properly but most people will stick to the backline and do nothing of value. Since we’re talking about to maximum potential, a smart and skilled Thief can easily assault the backline, grab stomps, provide Venom support and with the right build, even one shot commanders (there are videos of people doing this on Youtube).

Also you forgot Engineer. They are definitely a mixed bag in terms of support but they can provide it in their own ways and quite effectively if done right. Although Engineer’s support is more valuable in smaller scale than large, they can frontline quite effectively, provide a decent uptime of Superspeed, good cleanse, good heals, lots of CC and can self support without needing to be in a sub-squad with a Revenant.

I’m not trying to disprove anything you’ve said as again, I mostly agree. I just think that a couple of these classes need to be swapped around if talking maximum potential. I’ve seen a zerging Thief sniping backliners and revive supporting and I’ve seen/been frontline Engineer. It can really make a difference but you won’t see it often enough to notice most likely.

Warriors have banners which immediately outclass anyone else in the ressing department. Also with good access to stab, resistance and double endure means they are the best at securing res and stomps when dealing with mass cleaves. This isn’t even including the res speed minor trait that few take any more. Thieves are still better at assassinating targets and the new agility signet deserves mention.

Engineers can also be very durable in frontline but it is hard to find their niche beyond superspeed, ressing, and stealth. They are mostly hampered by weak stability because toss elixirs have idiotuc mechanics which keeps them behind warriors. They did benefit a lot from the blast light field meme the most as elixir gun is really effective now but it is hard to get value from them.

expandas.7051:

I’m not sure if it’s due to EU culture being different but the builds, tactics, and role you guys have assigned to Mesmer are completely contrary to their top-end NA counterparts. Shatter doesn’t put enough AoE damage to be viable for large scale. The extra damage of great sword doesn’t outweigh the utility of staff. Chaos/Insp/Chrono IS the cookie-cutter build for a reason, and the allocation of stats for gearing must reflect that.

There are other insights but to get back on topic once you have the correct build, tactics, and understand your role it’s actually NOT that difficult to pick things up. There’s a few L2P issues with maximizing your rotation and positioning but it’s not rocket science. This would suggest that large scale Mesmer has a relatively shorter skill cap than some of the other professions, i.e., investing additional time/effort in Mesmer to “get gud” once you’re already decent doesn’t pay off as well.

So large scale Mesmer has a smaller skill cap or ceiling, but what about its impact on a zerg’s success, “when played to it’s skill cap”? I think its contribution is significant, definitely in the top third. The extra utility is simply jaw dropping, whether it’s superior mobility, healing the train, or detargetting. Capable Mesmers are sharing every boon in the game, including quickness, resistance, and stability. These are things that can change the outcome of a fight more than the incremental benefits you would get from other classes.

Same deal in NA. I don’t know of any mesmers that even suggest using shatters outside of F4 in blobs. Most are condi, anyways, since it packs so much more durability in it of itself, and because all of WvW is now condi builds (stack em more), including guards and frontline in ZvZ. Power in organized play has been pretty much phased out entirely.

Mostly a utility-oriented spec, and it can be super strong. They’re utilized by groups with people that know how to utilize them. The big difference is that most groups don’t have those kinds of players; most skillgroups in general all left the format/game.

I ranked them in order of what your zerg needs the most:
Guardian- Support DPS ( obvious choice for #1, you need at least 2 per party for stab)
Revenant – Support DPS ( mallyx/jalis rev is a staple for any zerg due to resistance spam and damage reduction while outputting strong ranged damage with hammer)
Necro – Pure DPS ( Both power and condi necro shine in this meta, condi necro especially tears apart unorganised groups, whereas power boonstrip necro does a fantastic job of killing even the tankiest of targets)
Elementalist- Support ( I find DPS ele to be outclassed by DPS necro due to slow application of damage, no boon corrupts and unblockable attacks, however support heal ele maintains itself as one of the strongest builds.
Mesmer – Support ( Copying the EU meta mesmer which is a more support role rather the DPS role that NA has, support mesmer helps uptime of all your key boons, as well as heals decently and some also have started to use distortion to get through heavy bombs)
Warrior- Support DPS ( Run warbanner to res, wail on things with your strong burst damage and self survivalibility, just don’t be epidemic bait!,
Druid – Support ( You need one of these in your commander party to stealth your commander if he’s getting focused hard, but it’s a niche role, aside from that it heals well, stealth’s well, doesn’t die.)
Scrapper- Support DPS ( Run the super speed spam build to help your frontline push)
Thief – Pure DPS ( Justspam staff 5 and pretend you can’t read all the requests to switch class)

Guardian is the only class necessary for a guild group to be near unkillable. The defensive and offensive overlap is substantial. Without them, a guild group will fold. With only them, it can take a ridiculous amount of time to grind them down.

Second to that these days is Rev then Necro. IMO anything outside of those three classes is a bit of waste these days in large scale play and skirmish.

As for skill ceiling, Rev. Guardian rotations are pretty simple. Rev rotations particularly in skirmish can be very complex and the difference between an average Rev player and a great one is spectacular. Great skill can really make Rev sing.