Raising the numbers to create orange swords does nothing but allow more “zerg” tactics and lessen the need for smaller groups to work to ninja places.
In my opinion its a bad move.
A good change to go along with this is to make it so only siege can contest objectives (except supply camps).
Yup, definitely. In addition, if the <25 man group decides to auto attack the gate down, it should contest the point either once a certain amount of people start hitting or if the gate has lost a percentage of it’s health.
I’m pretty sure this just means more players can attack an objective at once without alerting enemies… Howzat combat zerging? Perhaps because, due to the reduced window of time to react to a threat, defenders will want to be more spread-out so as to allow more time for reinforcements to arrive?
Also, in tier 6 with SBI, to have 25 players in one group is pretty much unheard-of, so orange swords will be as good as removed for us.
(edited by Chaosky.5276)
A zerg of 24 picks up a roaming strider… “No, no… go away!”
“Ok, we’re here. Before we attack let’s do a headcount…”
/M Zerging Bay… DO NOT APPROACH!
How ridiculous.
The number should be set to 2+, 5+, 10+, 25+ with different symbols identifying the size. Give more info, rather than give it while hiding it. And refresh those sword positions every second, not every 10 secs.
This change is terrible as long as you only have to get 1 person to shoot at a gate from 1500 range in order to contest it.
Orange swords were not a problem in WvW in my estimation.
A zerg of 24 picks up a roaming strider… “No, no… go away!”
“Ok, we’re here. Before we attack let’s do a headcount…”
/M Zerging Bay… DO NOT APPROACH!How ridiculous.
The number should be set to 2+, 5+, 10+, 25+ with different symbols identifying the size. Give more info, rather than give it while hiding it. And refresh those sword positions every second, not every 10 secs.
This. Is. Perfect.
no but seriously different sizes would be perfect, if it stays like this it only means for us to put 4 scouts in towers/ keeps and tell 4 players to constantly make white swords at different towers, keeps.
Very good thing.
Anet already said we dont want people to blob up in big masses.
And this is the first thing they do that force people to spread out more.
Servers need scouts or guards
Smaller groups can do stuff without being killed in seconds because a +80 force running from crossedswords to crossed swords.
Next thing they gonna do:
-Give people a no rez buff while in combat, that stays on you for a minute when you get out of combat and not in range (1200). And get on you as soon when you get in range of a battle (so dont even have to attack or be attacked) People with the no rez buff cant rezz other people
-All swiftness buffs dont work if there are more then 39 allies near you.
(edited by Dutchares.6084)
I’d prefer Orange Swords to be done away with entirely, and contestation swords to be removed as well. But since this is a step in that direction I definitely agree with it.
Any changes that forces people to rely on each other more, forces people to communicate more, and strengthens a coordinated server vis a vis an unorganized server is good.
Does everybody think of orange swords before joining zerg?
Those PvE player do not even know what orange swords means. They join zerg of 50 other because of chance to win, not because of some orange swords.
Very good thing.
Anet already said we dont want people to blob up in big masses.
And this is the first thing they do that force people to spread out more.
Servers need scouts or guards
Smaller groups can do stuff without being killed in seconds because a +80 force running from crossedswords to crossed swords.Next thing they gonna do:
-Give people a no rez buff while in combat, that stays on you for a minute when you get out of combat and not in range (1200). And get on you as soon when you get in range of a battle (so dont even have to attack or be attacked) People with the no rez buff cant rezz other people-All swiftness buffs dont work if there are more then 39 allies near you.
Don’t be ridiculous. This will do nothing to spread people out. All it does is mean that you can have more of your force tearing through the gate while the others wait or watch the rear. You say servers need scouts or guards… tell that to the lower tier servers that don’t have the manpower in WvW to plant guards at every structure they own while still having an offense.
White and orange swords serve the purpose as NPC alarms. The NPCs, effectively, are threatened and calling for help. No one says they’re brilliant… a single thief or quaggan can set them off, but they try. I guess this now dumbs down the NPCs ability to warn of an attack.
Don’t get me started on the no rez buff ridiculousness either. One bad idea per thread please.
25 threshold for orange sword is too large (Anet can implemented, if only if a node is starting to show white crossword if hit by 3 people with at least 100 dmg per attack or a siege or 1 of the guard died, contested (WP) if 30 people hit at a specific time window (this will make sure WP open)). Anet should realize, with 25 man threshold for orange sword to be seen is more favorable to attacker (which is almost always a zerg), not defender.
I think: 10 (2 parties) for orange sword (shown after 11th man) is better.
Additional implementation: orange sword can only be seen near non neutral capture-able(sentry, camp, tower, keep, castle) and yak (with guard upgrade). This will give feeling if the guards/sentries ask for help.
(edited by deviller.9135)
So, here we go! Start trebbing Bay from Garrison, put up white swords. Sneak your full zerg around to, for example, NW gate. Have 20 or so people melt the gates in a hurry, still no orange swords. Do the same on North inner. Entire zerg in the lords room, done. Do this with any tower, keep, whatever. Have thieves go around and put up swords on every structure on the map. Send the zerg to a target, melt the gate with 20 or so, cap.
This will make things worse. I’ll make sure of that.
Yeah and all this could be countered by 1 scout.
Don’t get why people are getting upset by this all people have a problem with this arguments countered by scouts and good comms rather than just zerging behind a commander. Scotting boring blah blah, i scout alot due to needing to take a break for awhile/cooking during my guilds raid times
Does everybody think of orange swords before joining zerg?
Those PvE player do not even know what orange swords means. They join zerg of 50 other because of chance to win, not because of some orange swords.
But the commander they are following will know what it is, another example of a moot point in this thread
I think the threshold is a bit high, should be like 10-15. If you have 25 people and they do not know you are there already, you should be taking the doors/walls down fast enough that orange swords are meaningless anyways.
Excellent news. This shows that anet is trying to get distance from the current hand-helding hellokitty universe. This is a move towards a less forgiving world where people have to know what they are doing if they are to succeed.
(edited by Master of Timespace.2548)
So, here we go! Start trebbing Bay from Garrison, put up white swords. Sneak your full zerg around to, for example, NW gate. Have 20 or so people melt the gates in a hurry, still no orange swords. Do the same on North inner. Entire zerg in the lords room, done. Do this with any tower, keep, whatever. Have thieves go around and put up swords on every structure on the map. Send the zerg to a target, melt the gate with 20 or so, cap.
This will make things worse. I’ll make sure of that.
Yeah and all this could be countered by 1 scout.
Don’t get why people are getting upset by this all people have a problem with this arguments countered by scouts and good comms rather than just zerging behind a commander. Scotting boring blah blah, i scout alot due to needing to take a break for awhile/cooking during my guilds raid times
How does one scout counter this? You will need at least 5 people at each structure around the clock. So a home BL would require at a minimum 35 people for defense at all times of the day. I would wager a bet that almost every server cannot hold this amount of people organized and sitting in structures waiting around the clock. With 20 people you can melt a gate in about one minute or two. Defending will become much harder with no waypoints on the map which is a good posibility during the week when less people are playing round the clock. We need more rewards for defense not make it harder to defend. This will become extremely hard to keep people in WvW. As I said yesterday structures will flip like camps except the top 2, maybe top 3 tier matches. This means the change in game mechanic is going to benefit 25% to 40% of the servers who can actually hold a large defensive force online around the clock. So the other 60% to 75% suffer by this change in the long run. I vote to have a dragon upgrade to replace the current squishy lord of keeps. Ubsurd huh? 24 guys can waste a lord in 30 seconds. It’s already very easy to avoid orange swords guys. I don’t get why we want to put cover over larger groups….how does that promote less zergging? I i can already manage a group of 20 and not draw swords. With the new cap I feel I can easily manage 40 to 50 without drawing swords. Wait I thought this would mean less zergging….oops another hasty decision (i.e. siegerazer) that will turn out to be an extremely bad idea for most servers. Why can’t Anet allow the WvW players to vote on things like this? I am a defensive minded player first and offensive guru second but this cap in the end will increase zergs and make it harder to defend and thin out the defensive squads. I guess if you like structures flipping all of the time (applies to the majority of servers) your wish has been granted.
There is a reason that the guards are NPCs, because standing around in a tower is boring, and this is a game. We are here to have fun. We let NPCs do the boring stuff.
So let the NPCs do the scouting please. Heck, it is not even scouting, it is standing watch. Scouting is fun, standing watch is not. I don’t want to be a watchman. Requiring watchmen adds nothing to the game, and only serves to make defense even more boring and even less rewarding.
What will happen when defense becomes more boring, less effective, and less rewarding? People won’t do it. Don’t kid yourself into thinking that it will “force” anything. People will just defend less. The game will become an offensive capping race.
There is a reason that the guards are NPCs, because standing around in a tower is boring, and this is a game. We are here to have fun. We let NPCs do the boring stuff.
So let the NPCs do the scouting please. Heck, it is not even scouting, it is standing watch. Scouting is fun, standing watch is not. I don’t want to be a watchman. Requiring watchmen adds nothing to the game, and only serves to make defense even more boring and even less rewarding.
What will happen when defense becomes more boring, less effective, and less rewarding? People won’t do it. Don’t kid yourself into thinking that it will “force” anything. People will just defend less. The game will become an offensive capping race.
+1 and a lot more b/c i have to write a minimum amount of characters.
As already pointed out, i feel sorry for the additional number of people who have to scout because of this change.
That being said, it’s still a good change because it encourages teamwork and cooperation (i.e. skill) over the game holding your hand.
And there are plenty of things to do as a scout besides just standing there, you can scout out towers/keeps while flipping camps, ganking dolyaks/sentries, flipping quaggles, and so on. It’s not the most interesting stuff in the world, but you’re not simply “standing watch”
Can’t say I’m thrilled with this idea. Currently it takes discipline to assault a site without raising yellow swords. Increasing the number of attackers required to raise yellow swords will mean that an organised group can tear down a wall in a fraction of the time it currently takes & still not raise yellow swords. It also means that a few hangers-on auto-attacking the wall wont be the difference between (hopefully) getting in unopposed, & drawing the attention of all the defenders on the map. I think this change will only help invaders & hinder defenders as it will effectively reduce the amount of info that can be gathered from the map.
There is a reason that the guards are NPCs, because standing around in a tower is boring, and this is a game. We are here to have fun. We let NPCs do the boring stuff.
So let the NPCs do the scouting please. Heck, it is not even scouting, it is standing watch. Scouting is fun, standing watch is not. I don’t want to be a watchman. Requiring watchmen adds nothing to the game, and only serves to make defense even more boring and even less rewarding.
What will happen when defense becomes more boring, less effective, and less rewarding? People won’t do it. Don’t kid yourself into thinking that it will “force” anything. People will just defend less. The game will become an offensive capping race.
Boohoo. What happens then? You lose the keep. Don’t want to defend your keeps? Too kittening bad.
All this carebear talk about wanting swords and drone reports. Give me a break. Do some old fashioned scouting instead.
As already pointed out, i feel sorry for the additional number of people who have to scout because of this change.
That being said, it’s still a good change because it encourages teamwork and cooperation (i.e. skill) over the game holding your hand.
And there are plenty of things to do as a scout besides just standing there, you can scout out towers/keeps while flipping camps, ganking dolyaks/sentries, flipping quaggles, and so on. It’s not the most interesting stuff in the world, but you’re not simply “standing watch”
If your doing something else, you are not on watch. A 24-man (or larger with people not attacking) can do a lot of damage before you run back, and then call for help. That 30-120 seconds can make ALL the difference. An effective watchman cannot be running around the map capping nearby stuff.
Heck, I would even be worried about having only 1 watchman for the garrison. By the time all the gates are checked, the alarm is sounded, and people get there, outer will be gone for sure. Remember that usually, white swords will be false alarms, so no one will mobilize anything until the watchmen puts out a firm warning.
Well obviously it’s going to depend on a lot of factors. With a paper tower/keep you’re not going to be able to stray very far. If the enemy has a large force and been messing with you a lot, you’re not gonna want to stray very far, etc. etc. On the other hand, on a map without much enemy presence or with fully fortified stuff you’ve got a bit more leeway.
With some favorable factors I don’t see how a scout can’t effectively do his job while doing simply things like flipping a sentry or quaggle. You’ll still get white swords, at which time the scout can run back and likely get there before any real damage has been done to defenses.
I think this the end of upgraded towers/keeps, at least on the lower tiers. There is a reason why we’re in the lower tiers. We lack players and can’t provide 24 hour coverage. You can tell us “scouting” or “defending” all you want. We just don’t have the players for it.
At least with the orange swords the few people on the maps late at night have a chance to arrive in time to defend. Without the swords the towers and keeps will suddenly flip colors and nobody will notice until it’s too late. People aren’t going to pay for upgrades daily when that’s going on.
If anything this is just going to encourage smaller guilds to go zerging on their own.
I think this the end of upgraded towers/keeps, at least on the lower tiers. There is a reason why we’re in the lower tiers. We lack players and can’t provide 24 hour coverage. You can tell us “scouting” or “defending” all you want. We just don’t have the players for it.
At least with the orange swords the few people on the maps late at night have a chance to arrive in time to defend. Without the swords the towers and keeps will suddenly flip colors and nobody will notice until it’s too late. People aren’t going to pay for upgrades daily when that’s going on.
If anything this is just going to encourage smaller guilds to go zerging on their own.
I could see this even on the higher tiers as well. I will not be upgrading something I think could be ninja’d by 25 ppl as soon as we leave. Even in T2 we do not have enough ppl at all hours to watch every keep/tower. I guess this will be more a no upgraded towers, usually there are a few ppl in a keep to defend/warn at most times, but even when warned a 25 man crew can get through a reinforced doors in a pretty short time with golems.
Yep, since they’re doing this, they also need to scale the defense fortifications. It shouldn’t be so easy to take down a tower/keep.
I advocate no swords, ever, white or orange… and a death’s head marker anywhere 30 or more players from the same server gather.
No markers on map at all. You scout for intelligence otherwise the only hint you get about activity is something changing color. The only indicator you will get is locked WPs. And that’s because you earned that intel by upgrading.
This is a terrible change, you can constantly keep a grp of 20 running around camps without being able to detect them or send any defense.
if they actually want zerg tactics to be stopped, they should put constant swords at anytime more than 30 ppl gather up together. That will break up zergs faster than anything.
I advocate no swords, ever, white or orange… and a death’s head marker anywhere 30 or more players from the same server gather.
People that ask for no attack info ever I don’t think know what they are asking for. The end result won’t be less zergs, and it will definitely not be more fighting.
Planetside one in beta had a system like this where you could attack any base on the map, and with little warning, and all it produced was an endless game of ninja’ing and cat and mouse, with teams avoiding each other back capping each other and playing musical base trading.
Is that really what people want, which server can cap the most stuff that isn’t being defended, and won’t get defended before people can get there?
Before anyone says that player only info and scouting makes for skilled play, they better ask their guild and find out who the 5-10 people are that are going to volunteer to spend their entire play period standing on a keep wall for hours, and if they are lucky maybe being able to call out help for one fight the entire night.
Undefended objectives in GW2 simply get taken too quickly for a system like this to work.
Before anyone says that player only info and scouting makes for skilled play, they better ask their guild and find out who the 5-10 people are that are going to volunteer to spend their entire play period standing on a keep wall for hours, and if they are lucky maybe being able to call out help for one fight the entire night.
Which is exactly why there needs to be rewards for doing that. More and more this looks to be the sort of change that anet makes without properly considering all the factors.
Which is exactly why there needs to be rewards for doing that. More and more this looks to be the sort of change that anet makes without properly considering all the factors.
There should be rewards yes, but that still doesn’t make it enjoyable.
It’s liking having a great reward in PVE for massive grinding, yeah some might consider it worth doing, but still shouldn’t aim to have gameplay that is tedious or boring.
Also I don’t see how you make rewards for standing guard that wouldn’t be easily abused. PvE people would be coming in parking their characters in some safe keep, racking up karma/exp or whatever. And probably being AFK when the attack finally does show up anyway.
This change is baffling. Seems a few upper tiered servers tend to favor this change. A few lower tiered servers tend to hate this change. And there is probably a couple middle tiers that couldn’t care enough either way.
Doesn’t seem like an improvement to WvW as a ‘Whole’. You can’t just write off several lower tiers of WvW as obsolete and not worry about those players.
Also I don’t see how you make rewards for standing guard that wouldn’t be easily abused. PvE people would be coming in parking their characters in some safe keep, racking up karma/exp or whatever. And probably being AFK when the attack finally does show up anyway.
Thats probably right but then anet shouldn’t make the increase so massive, make it 15, and remove the ability to contest a keep/tower by only 1 person.
I think they should totally remove orange swords. Why should a team get “free scouting”? In fact, the should remove the white sword from towers and keeps even if its under attack. If you have no one watching a tower that’s you own problem. This game shouldn’t babysit you.
20 coordinated people will rush a keep easily. And now it wont even prompt orange swords anymore.
Result you have to have several ppl in every keep at a time. As soon as its contested you need to quickly run all over the place EVERY section of wall to make sure there isnt some 24man zerg superior catapult-rushing a wall.
And we all know how fun and rewarding sitting in a keep doing kitten all is /sarcasm.
I’m thinking 5 people should be the cutoff point,
5 guys and a superior ram = into a tower in about 3mins.
25 guys with 4-5 superior rams and that place is open, lord killed, circle is capped and gone in around 50 seconds if they’re even half competent.
I mean, does anyone Anet even play this stuff anymore or are they just pulling random numbers out of thin air?
“People that ask for no attack info ever I don’t think know what they are asking for. The end result won’t be less zergs, and it will definitely not be more fighting.”
I SAID a marker whereever 30 or more players are gathered, no matter what. How is that ‘NO INFO’? READ READ! REEAAADD!!
This thread is pointless now that this is going to be in the Feb 26th update. The constant outcry and arguments that will ensue b/c no one will upgrade keeps any longer and paper structures fall in 1 to 2 minutes will result in another knee jerk reaction and probably make waypoints automatic without the need for upgrades. I agree with whoever stated that the towers and keeps need a large increase in HP’s. This change is insane without some upgrades defensively. I would love to see the game go away from the notification swords, however, it isn’t even close to being ready for that. The only things implemented in WvW so far have been culling and promote zergging. I’m okay with zergs but to give them an invisiability buff so to speak on top of the AoE cap is just not a good formula for the long term. It’s simply too early and possibly game breaking for this to be implemented now without any incentive for defense. I predict a lot of karma in the near future. :P
As stated before, we shall see how this all plays out next week.
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