Guild Wars 2

The enemies greatly outnumber your forces, be careful out there!
— In-game description

Outmanned is an effect that applies in World versus World to players whose team is outnumbered by those of enemy players.

Effect
+20% Magic find
+33% Experience
+33% Karma

Last thing i need when i have 10 guys beating my face down with my kitten planted 5 feet below ground level like your typical ghetto gang bashing, is more XP or Karma.

Has no one ever thought that the effect would be better utilized as a defensive force equalizer or multiplier instead of something that useless?

It’s been suggested, and I do believe the developers are working on it. Maybe it will be the return of orbs? Who knows.

I for one, would like to see

30% increase in vitality
20% increase in attack
25% toughness increase

It’s a huge buff, but if the enemy outnumbers you 3 to 1, then it actually starts to look like it’s not enough.

Maybe it could be scaleable to the number of enemy players compared to friendlies on the map.

And i still feel the taking out of orbs was a good move, because it gives superiority to the server that already has it.

They already made a good step with Breakout, but i feel its not enough to help #3 servers regain a modicum of a foothold on a map.

Those stat increases are way out of line, just because you are outmanned on a map doesn’t mean you should be unkillable 1v1 lol.

Siik.9038:

Those stat increases are way out of line, just because you are outmanned on a map doesn’t mean you should be unkillable 1v1 lol.

Just because more people play on your server doesn’t mean you should be able to take every tower/keep and ruin the fun for enemy players…

Simple solution:Give the buff in the presence of multiple enemy players.

IMO, it should correlate to half of how outnumbered you are. So if they outnumber you by 50%, you gain a 25% vitality and attack bonus. (As those are stats everyone can use.)

10% outnumbered = 5% bonus
20% outnumbered = 10% bonus
50% outnumbered = 25% bonus

Etc.

Outmanned needs a complete rework imo. This is the sole reason why people complain about PvDoor. If the effect was changed to give buffs to players stats (say for example +50% to all stats), that would actually make things more interesting. It would give people an incentive to get a small group to take on a zerg head on. That way all servers get an equal chance at fighting and actually make a difference. Also it should apply to the buildings as well, make it harder for the enemies to capture buildings when your outmanned, say give double/triple HP to walls/gates/npcs etc

It really needs to be planned out properly, I know that my idea will have some drawbacks, e.g one thief taking out non zerg players in an instance lol

Otherwise like the others said, a formula that calculates the max number of players on the map of server x, y, z and scales stats based on that

e.g On one of the borderlands; server x=100players, server y=50players, server z=10 players

server y – 100/50 = 2, so x2 the stats of players on server y
server z – 100/10 = 10, so x10 the stats of players on server z

this example is just an idea which could also apply to the buildings/npcs, but there are issues where server z would than be considered overpowered in 1v1s

taek.9386:

Outmanned needs a complete rework imo. This is the sole reason why people complain about PvDoor. If the effect was changed to give buffs to players stats (say for example +50% to all stats), that would actually make things more interesting. It would give people an incentive to get a small group to take on a zerg head on. That way all servers get an equal chance at fighting and actually make a difference. Also it should apply to the buildings as well, make it harder for the enemies to capture buildings when your outmanned, say give double/triple HP to walls/gates/npcs etc

It really needs to be planned out properly, I know that my idea will have some drawbacks, e.g one thief taking out non zerg players in an instance lol

Otherwise like the others said, a formula that calculates the max number of players on the map of server x, y, z and scales stats based on that

e.g On one of the borderlands; server x=100players, server y=50players, server z=10 players

server y – 100/50 = 2, so x2 the stats of players on server y
server z – 100/10 = 10, so x10 the stats of players on server z

this example is just an idea which could also apply to the buildings/npcs, but there are issues where server z would than be considered overpowered in 1v1s

I think its a pretty reasonable idea, and for all those who complain about OP in 1v1, when you outnumber an enemy, what are the chances that they travel in groups bigger than yours? What are the chances that as an outmanned player, you will be able to catch a solo non-outmanned player and overpower him?

I think it would be cool if outmanned let you carry double the supply, repair walls for half the cost, and/or build siege at half the cost. I never liked the attack/hp buff you got in WoW for being outmanned, it was really lame if you ever got into a 1vs1 (or 5vs1…) with a buffed player that you knew you just couldn’t kill. Not a lot of fun. It makes sense that outmanned would affect supplies though since you have less people to carry and provide for your side.

I was reading some other threads and something popped in my head.

Instead of bothering about using outmanned or some other balancing mechanic that would probably make things even more imbalanced, i was thinking about using population caps to limit the number of people that can enter into a particular W3 map.

Maybe limit it to 1.5x or 2x the number of players on the server with the smallest presence?

Reize.2176:

I was reading some other threads and something popped in my head.

Instead of bothering about using outmanned or some other balancing mechanic that would probably make things even more imbalanced, i was thinking about using population caps to limit the number of people that can enter into a particular W3 map.

Maybe limit it to 1.5x or 2x the number of players on the server with the smallest presence?

That’s been suggested several times before, and in my opinion it’s a horrible idea. A certain way to kill a game is to prevent people who want to play it from being able to play it. It is often the case that a losing server ends up with rather few players on the map toward the end of the week, and constricting the other two servers based on that level is just crazy.

Think of the outmanned buff this way, it is trying to be an incentive to get more people to join the map for the buff to obtain better items.

A real stat buff would likely destroy some attempts to do a coordinated 1v1 or GvG due to one party being extremely overpowered. You may say that WvW isn’t about 1v1 or GvG but as long as there isn’t a separate option (without constrictive PvP equipment) there simply is no other way.

To be able to carry more supply would likely be abused easily. The Outmanned buff we got now may be the only real solution for the current state of WvW.

I don’t think it is the right way to buff one’s stats too much. You need to prevent a situation where a 5 ppl group can head on in a zerg of 20 and take the victory. That would be no fun for 20, so less fun for the majority. If you are outmanned at all times, maybe you should not be in the same bracket…
I know it can be a vicious cycle: your outmanned => more ppl get frustrated => less ppl play => even more outmanned…
So slightly increased stats should be fine, but you have to be very careful about the cap.
I like the idea of the reduced cost for siege, but the balancing also needs to be handled quite carefully. I also think that they introduced something nice with the npc commander and his ‘little’ pet…

…I also think that it is a bad idea to limit the amount of players based on the group with the smallest amount of ppl. Again: reducing the fun factor for a bigger number of ppl…

Doomdesire.9365:

It’s been suggested, and I do believe the developers are working on it. Maybe it will be the return of orbs? Who knows.

I for one, would like to see

30% increase in vitality
20% increase in attack
25% toughness increase

It’s a huge buff, but if the enemy outnumbers you 3 to 1, then it actually starts to look like it’s not enough.

WoW did that with their Tenacity-buff.

Result, they still got facerolled. But in small skirmishes a single player took 5 other players to take down and ran around 1shotting ppl.

Or do you think its a good idea to give a roaming profession like Thief, who is always alone anyway, a 20% increase in damage? Yah that sounds like a fantastic idea….

I cant phantom the reason for xp/karma buff for an outmanned situation. A simple flat 7% buff to all stats will suffice anyday over xp/karma

Here is how it should be.

Effect
+20% Magic find
+33% Experience
+33% Karma
-100% Repair costs

CHIPS.6018:

Here is how it should be.

Effect
+20% Magic find
+33% Experience
+33% Karma
-100% Repair costs

10% repair costs, to keep you thinking about what you are about to do.
If and or when ArenaNet chooses to change the cost of armor repair, there should be some consequence of defeat.

Cactus.2710:

Reize.2176:

I was reading some other threads and something popped in my head.

Instead of bothering about using outmanned or some other balancing mechanic that would probably make things even more imbalanced, i was thinking about using population caps to limit the number of people that can enter into a particular W3 map.

Maybe limit it to 1.5x or 2x the number of players on the server with the smallest presence?

That’s been suggested several times before, and in my opinion it’s a horrible idea. A certain way to kill a game is to prevent people who want to play it from being able to play it. It is often the case that a losing server ends up with rather few players on the map toward the end of the week, and constricting the other two servers based on that level is just crazy.

What if we tried the opposite and fill the map with Veteran npc characters that roam the map and peg their population to match the highest populated server, and have them attack objectives at intervals like what MOBAs do?

It should be balanced, meaning if you buff an outmanned server on a map, you should also increase the rewards for killing someone who is outmanned.

It could also be combined with an outpointed buff so breakout events don’t stall at one tower.

I personally think the outmanned buff is kinda lame…

Its like “hey, increased rewards, but you won’t be able to get them, cause you’re outmanned!!! isn’t that great?” no…. no it’s not.

Please explain to me how extra karma/exp/mf is great when I’m up against 20 enemies on my own =/ It would make more sense if the outmanned buff made you a little bit stronger, relatively to the amount of enemies you’re up against. (and no, I don’t mean if it’s 10vs20 that the 10 ppl are 2x as strong, NO)

Centrix.4065:

Please explain to me how extra karma/exp/mf is great when I’m up against 20 enemies on my own =/ It would make more sense if the outmanned buff made you a little bit stronger, relatively to the amount of enemies you’re up against. (and no, I don’t mean if it’s 10vs20 that the 10 ppl are 2x as strong, NO)

So you can farm PvE mobs near objectives that are currently under attack.

You get the passive credit for defence if you kill an invader near a keep or tower ( be sure to be in the radius fulfilling the karma aspect) then you can get back to your farming with your Ub3Rl33T PvE bonuses, experience and magic find.

Reize.2176:

What if we tried the opposite and fill the map with Veteran npc characters that roam the map and peg their population to match the highest populated server, and have them attack objectives at intervals like what MOBAs do?

That seems pretty clever actually.

That’s the most clever thing that Anet could do. Fill maps with mobs. Let them fight between themselves if there is no people, now that’s real PvP.
And back on topic. So, ok let’s take for example T4. There are three servers with maybe equal population, or some servers play at day or night to close gap in points. So gap isn’t wide. Now, two of that servers do something with their community – either somehow interest people to transfer to them (maybe even giving gold for it), or rally PvE parts of their community to show more presence in WvWvW.
Now people of third server don’t care about things i listed, and some day find themselves outmanned. This server gets less points and eventually after some weeks falls a tier below. Now in this new tier all 3 server’s population will be more or less equal, and no one will get outmanned buff. Everything is fair now, don’t you think?
What most of the people here want to implement is basically this: server which was literally doing nothing to improve quality or numbers of their www community should just be with opprotunity to play on equal level with opponents WHICH WORKED to get at that level. Sigh. Everyone wants everything for free now.
And really outmanned could be improved: for example 100% or more magic find (and nothing else since no WvWvWer actually cares about exp or karma), just because some people can actually fight outmanned at it would be nice to get reward for it, and loot is probably the only reward now in WvWvW.

^Who said they’d go up a tier? They’d be stuck in the tier they’re in, but the battles at least would be more even. I mean think what this could do for T8. They’d still be down at the bottom and stuck there eternally, but the battles would be even, and at least the server currently winning down there would enjoy themselves.

They should bring back orbs, to give us our carrot on the stick.

Swap the current outmanned buff stats with the old orb buff stats.

Let the weaker servers have a chance, let the stronger servers gain more karma/gold for winning.

Yemeth.5462:

And back on topic. So, ok let’s take for example T4. There are three servers with maybe equal population, or some servers play at day or night to close gap in points. So gap isn’t wide. Now, two of that servers do something with their community – either somehow interest people to transfer to them (maybe even giving gold for it), or rally PvE parts of their community to show more presence in WvWvW.
Now people of third server don’t care about things i listed, and some day find themselves outmanned. This server gets less points and eventually after some weeks falls a tier below. Now in this new tier all 3 server’s population will be more or less equal, and no one will get outmanned buff. Everything is fair now, don’t you think?
What most of the people here want to implement is basically this: server which was literally doing nothing to improve quality or numbers of their www community should just be with opprotunity to play on equal level with opponents WHICH WORKED to get at that level. Sigh. Everyone wants everything for free now.

That’s just simpleminded BS. I want the people who designed the game to be smart enough to make it balanced and enjoyable. I shouldn’t have to spend my entertainment time trying to convince lots of people I don’t know (or even worse, pay them) that they should play the game the way I want them to instead of the way they want to, and I shouldn’t have to wait weeks for a decent match. I’m not asking for anything free by expecting that … I paid for the game, I worked hard to level my character and learn how to play it at least decently, and I’ve spent LOTS of hours learning the ins and outs of WvW. Go peddle your sanctimonious crap somewhere else.

Oh well i thought t8 servers was pure pve since actually even in t4 there isn’t much wvwvw action going on. Then ok there it could be implemented, maybe even flying rams for losing side, why not.
And i don’t know who said about going up a tier, since i didn’t – i was talking about weak server moving down, and it actually happens if there is any life in www (except for t8, but see above about it).

And for cactus – it’s WvWvW. If you don’t know what it means – it’s World versus World versus World.
Where it isn’t only YOUR character.
But gee, thief from US, of course you just want COMMUNAL aspect of game to be just about you. Since yeah… you paid for the game… Nothing to say here really.

What makes you think a Veteran NPCs could give any advantage to a smaller server? If anything we all know that one-on-one they can’t match a human player. What it does is give whatever little human players small pop servers have, a fighting chance that is FAIR for both sides.

As mentioned, buffing the smaller server does not work because it balances out group combat but gives an advantage to the smaller server on 1v1, not doing anything allows the larger population server to steamroll through everything despite the smaller server putting an effort (on the part of dedicated guilds of course) to try and compete but they do not have a chance.

MOBA style balancing IMHO is the fairest possible way to balance it out and still reward players on both sides at a personal level if they put in the effort to do something useful.

Out manned needs to be something relevant to WvW. It should give stat buffs or ability buffs that actually HELP out manned players. Nothing to overpowered, but enough to help somewhat in a fight.

Well I would strongly disagree to stat buffs (coming from FoW, an often outmanned server). How do you balance it? It would force the bigger server to go around in packs, for going in smaller groups or even alone would put you at a great disadvantage. I myself wouldn’t feel good also, as an outmannde player, to win any battle at all.

What could be done though is decrease repair costs, increase supply carrying capacity and decrease siege deployment costs for the outmanned ppl.

Probably another buff/nerf (maybe named “in great numbers”) for the server outmanning the others would be also a good idea. “In great numbers” would than decrease rewards from kills and events, due to a lower difficulty. That could probably make zerging against less populated servers a bit less appealing.

What about when you get outmanned you have an elite skill which transforms you a big quaggan with some awesome skills

Yemeth.5462:

And for cactus – it’s WvWvW. If you don’t know what it means – it’s World versus World versus World.
Where it isn’t only YOUR character.
But gee, thief from US, of course you just want COMMUNAL aspect of game to be just about you. Since yeah… you paid for the game… Nothing to say here really.

I never said I wanted the game to be about me … I said pretty much just the opposite. The whole reason I play WvW is for the group strategy aspects. I simply said I don’t want to have to convince a bunch of other players that they should enjoy what I enjoy in order for the game to be workable, and I certainly don’t want to have to pay them for it as you suggested. Trying thinking before you type.

Combat stats boost would lead to more grieving.

• Thieves 1-shotting people.
• Encouraging your team mates not to join a map you play in.
• Artificially skewing server ratings.
• Players blaming the Outmanned boon for their own shortcomings in combat.

I am fully against any form of stat boost included in the Outmanned Buff. If you don’t have enough players to defend a point, then you should by no means be able to defend the point. You keep what you can defend, and not what you can’t.

Lets not casualize the game anymore than it is.

How about they remove the AOE cap for outmanned players to give them a fighting chance against the zerg?

If you have more people you should get the “Overstaffed” buff.
-100% Magic find
-100% Experience
-100% Karma
+500% Repair costs

This is a 5 minute fix that they have had 6 months(?) to apply. Habib! We need you! Why have you forsaken us for so long?

Svarty.8019:

If you have more people you should get the “Overstaffed” buff.
-100% Magic find
-100% Experience
-100% Karma
+500% Repair costs

This is a 5 minute fix that they have had 6 months(?) to apply. Habib! We need you! Why have you forsaken us for so long?

Punishing large pop servers so harshly is not the answer.

Gisei.5749:

I am fully against any form of stat boost included in the Outmanned Buff. If you don’t have enough players to defend a point, then you should by no means be able to defend the point. You keep what you can defend, and not what you can’t.

Lets not casualize the game anymore than it is.

Although I totally understand you reasoning, it does make sense at all in the T8 matches. There FC and ET have been outmanned for a number of months now. Having a boost in Karma is pointless. The only way to be more competitive is to get some sort of power and/or survivability buff just for the sake of enjoying the game a little more.
If a T1 server does not show up to defend their towers, then, yes – it’s their fault. But if a T8 shows up with all their 5 people logged on to WvW to defend a tower against 20 week in week out, month in month out then a buff sounds tempting…. for both sides just to get a bit of a match going.
So maybe an OP buff for only T8/T9 on the last day before reset.

SF are so bored with WvW that they have all their camps, towers and keeps upgraded to the max in their own BL. It always stays green regardless if anyone is even interested in attacking their BL. Sometimes they might loose a few camps to a ninja squad or even, heaven behold, a tower. But I’ve never seen a blue or red keep in green (SF/Kain/DR) BL. End result – 99% SF can hang out in EB or Red/Blue BL. Having a buff would surely be nice just to give them a little run for their money.

Doomdesire.9365:

It’s been suggested, and I do believe the developers are working on it. Maybe it will be the return of orbs? Who knows.

I for one, would like to see

30% increase in vitality
20% increase in attack
25% toughness increase

It’s a huge buff, but if the enemy outnumbers you 3 to 1, then it actually starts to look like it’s not enough.

that might be okay for zergs, but that also creates super powered roamers who would be incredibly hard to kill.

Reize.2176:

Svarty.8019:

If you have more people you should get the “Overstaffed” buff.
-100% Magic find
-100% Experience
-100% Karma
+500% Repair costs

This is a 5 minute fix that they have had 6 months(?) to apply. Habib! We need you! Why have you forsaken us for so long?

Punishing large pop servers so harshly is not the answer.

Yes, it really is.

Don’t modify stats but you can:
1. Increase the regen time of stamina so you can dodge a bit more
2. Increase the speed of swiftness
3. Increase the amount of supply you can carry.

The question about outmanned in my opinion shouldn’t let you pwn the zerg easier but to make you faster and harder to catch while also helping you hold your current towers. If you are farming supply at depots to repair your walls being hit by a treb and you have less people then let players carry more supply to offset that. Being faster and allowing you to dodge makes the difference when trying to get across a map to get into a tower and defend it since you have less people to defend.

None of the above makes someone over powered in pvp but allows one person to offset the lack of other players when it comes to siege repair and deployment.

I know a lot of people (especialy people on high tier) will not agree with me.
But i think wvw should be about skill, organisation and teamwork.

PvP in WoW sucked because it was all about gear and stats not skill.
Sames count at the moment for GW2. It has become all about who has the best 24h coverage. And who has the biggest organised force

About the outmanned buff:
I think the outmanned bufff should be removed completely and an outnumbered buff should be introduced.
The outnumbered buff should work on all larger battles (armies > 20 people).
So if there are more then 20 enemies of the same server or there are 20 allies within 1200, the server should start to check if the outnumbered buff should be enabled (check like every 30 seconds) . If there is an enemy force bigger then 150% your force the outnumbered buff will be actived. How bigger the difference how bigger the advantage the outnumbered buff should give you.

What kind of advantage shouldnt matter that much as long it is wvw related (so no karma or magic find crap) . It doesnt matter if it are just stat buffs. Or special abilities that get activated whenever the outnumbered buff is activated.

Change the game so it becomes about who is best in battles.
Remove all the advantages larger forces have (like at the moment a 100+ organised group can with a 100% speed buff, defend all keeps. So splitting up your force and attack multiple keeps/towers at the same time is no option, because the large force will beat you before you can open the door. Or they can rez every dead people in a second. When fighting such a large organised group all abilities except the auto attack stop working(lag) So its 0% skill based) So for example a speed reduction. And a no rezzing while fighting an outnumbered fight(and a few minutes after).
And give advantages to groups who are being outnumbered. (Better defencive abilities)

Change the game into borders with lots of big challanging battles all over the map. And with big i dont mean numbers(except at keep fights) .., but how long a fight last.
Fights where groups steamroll everything within a few seconds, or take a keep/tower within a minute are no fun/challanging.(another problem with large forces, next to the lag , culling and all other problems they create)
A game where small(10-20 people) groups roam around. Only working together when taking keeps. Where large forces move slowly. And death people have to run back to the battle, in groups so they dont get killed by roaming groups intercepting reinforcements.

At least update the buff so it’s actually useful. I’m still picking up gray items when I have that that lovely buff. And the experience gain is fairly crappy too.

If I’m getting my face smashed in because the other server has a Zerg, why can’t I get some green/yellow items?

Fomby.4295:

At least update the buff so it’s actually useful. I’m still picking up gray items when I have that that lovely buff. And the experience gain is fairly crappy too.

If I’m getting my face smashed in because the other server has a Zerg, why can’t I get some green/yellow items?

Hah! I should be expecting to be guaranteed at least 5 BoHs and a Rare grade item for every enemy player we kill while being outmanned.

Fomby.4295:

At least update the buff so it’s actually useful. I’m still picking up gray items when I have that that lovely buff. And the experience gain is fairly crappy too.

If I’m getting my face smashed in because the other server has a Zerg, why can’t I get some green/yellow items?

Blame that on the faulty DR and loot drop mechanics. Then again, that’s a different can of worms altogether.

“What could be done though is decrease repair costs, increase supply carrying capacity and decrease siege deployment costs for the outmanned ppl.”

I think this is the best option. I think if you have the outmanned buff, you shouldn’t get any equipment damage at all. Repair costs aren’t going to change my tactics in battle, but it will effect my decision on whether I continue to fight or just go PvE. The consequence of losing the fight is losing the tower/camp/keep which translates to losing points for my realm. It shouldn’t be losing my money.

The only effect on outmanned buff is this:
“X is OUTMANNED!! ATTACK!!!!!!”

2vs1 total ownage most of the times