All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>
[Teef] guild :>
Outmanned buff
Didn’t you get the memo? It’s only fair to give the winning (read: more coverage/numbers) side additional stats.
Anything else would be unbalanced.
Thoughts?
Did you think you were the first one on page 1 even with that idea?
The idea of outmanned buff is to give enough incentive for more people to join the war on the losing side. Not to make those who are already on the map stronger – that would be unfair.
Whether these incentives work as well as they thought to be by developers – I don’t know. Only thing I know is buffing any side of the fence combat-wise, be it losing or winning one, is unfair. Orbs kinda blow in this regard.
Team Aggression [TA] – Golden Horde [GH]
The idea of outmanned buff is to give enough incentive for more people to join the war on the losing side. Not to make those who are already on the map stronger – that would be unfair.
I am not following your logic, because the outnumbered message is allready an indication that your opponents are stronger. You10- they 50, what chance do you stand to keep your tower?
The idea of outmanned buff is to give enough incentive for more people to join the war on the losing side. Not to make those who are already on the map stronger – that would be unfair.
I am not following your logic, because the outnumbered message is allready an indication that your opponents are stronger. You10- they 50, what chance do you stand to keep your tower?
None? As long as you don’t have huge advantage in player skill level. And you shouldn’t have any. Why should there be any chance for you when you are outnumbered?
This buff’s idea is to give your allies who are not currently on WvW incentive to join the battle even though the odds are they will die a lot, to try and turn the tide.
Team Aggression [TA] – Golden Horde [GH]
WvW Coordinator
The idea of outmanned buff is to give enough incentive for more people to join the war on the losing side. Not to make those who are already on the map stronger – that would be unfair.
Whether these incentives work as well as they thought to be by developers – I don’t know. Only thing I know is buffing any side of the fence combat-wise, be it losing or winning one, is unfair. Orbs kinda blow in this regard.
Even more specifically, the original intent was to make it so that players had some little boost to playing even though you might be getting beaten. The main reason to not make it overly beneficial is that it creates a disincentive to have a full map of players at that point, which is where the balance comes in.
The idea of outmanned buff ikitteno give enough incentive for more people to join the war on the losing side. Not to make those who are already on the map kittenronger – that would be unfair.
Whether these incentives work as well akittenhey thought to be by developers – I don’t know. Only thing I know is buffing any side of the fence combat-wise, be it losing or winning one, is unfair. Orbs kinda blow in this regard.
Even more specifically, the original intent wakitteno make it so that players had some little bookitten to playing even though you might be getting beaten. The main reason to not make it overly beneficial ikittenhat it creates a disincentive to have a full map of players at that point, which is where the balance comes in.
Bloodlust creates a disincentive to play when you don’t have a full map of players. Trying to fight a losing battle against a full server who gets points-for-stomps is actually more harmful to your team than not playing at all.
It’s amazing that you can’t see how bloodlust is just a mirror-image of outmanned. How you can even talk about outmanned creating “balance issues” and “disincentives” after implementing bloodlust…. I just….. can’t even….
[Scnd][TA][Dius][aX]
You really are clueless, servers wont be able to create a situation where they can avoid random people getting on the map so they gain the buff. Also the outmanned buff is specifically when one server is “greatly outmanned” by another server so what is wrong with them receiving a buff to their kittekittenn order to complete?
I simply cannot fathom how your mind works, do you actually know this game?
Because when they buff goes away IE more people join, they would lose kittenats which in turn brings on the griefing and “omg you noob leave the map bc i want my kittenat bookitten back!!!!”
If they buff goes away they are no longer “outmanned” what is your point here.
My point is tying a statistical boost leads to griefing. Even though you may not have the Outnumbered Buff, you could still be Outnumbered no? Just not “greatly outnumbered”.
Adding +power etc to the Outnumbered Buff isn’t going to solve any problems, only create more.
NSP>ET>SoS>BG>ET>SoS>JQ>SoS>Mag>JQ
My fun laughs at your server pride.
My fun laughs at your server pride.
i never heard anyone say: gt out of wvw, i dnt wana pay for repairs.
also, people do not play wvw because they need incentive. they play for fights. so making outmaned buff a buff would be more balanced actually, because smaller force can hold against bigger, and when outmaned buff is gone everyone on the map knows that sides are more balanced numbers wise anyway. so it will always be a good feeling to actually loose the outmaned buff. it will not make people go out of wvw because outmaned is gone. people will think: oh, great. enough people loged on map that we can do this…
You really are clueless, servers wont be able to create a situation where they can avoid random people getting on the map so they gain the buff. Also the outmanned buff is specifically when one server is “greatly outmanned” by another server so what is wrong with them receiving a buff to their kittekittenn order to complete?
I simply cannot fathom how your mind works, do you actually know this game?
Because when they buff goes away IE more people join, they would lose kittenats which in turn brings on the griefing and “omg you noob leave the map bc i want my kittenat bookitten back!!!!”
If they buff goes away they are no longer “outmanned” what is your point here.
Only situation where I can fathom this could be an issue is when you have a large number of people waiting at spawn for a GvG to begin, but it’s not like that’s a problem anymore.
Banana And Cookies [BC]
all is vain
all is vain
The idea of outmanned buff is to give enough incentive for more people to join the war on the losing side. Not to make those who are already on the map stronger – that would be unfair.
Whether these incentives work as well as they thought to be by developers – I don’t know. Only thing I know is buffing any side of the fence combat-wise, be it losing or winning one, is unfair. Orbs kinda blow in this regard.
Even more specifically, the original intent was to make it so that players had some little boost to playing even though you might be getting beaten. The main reason to not make it overly beneficial is that it creates a disincentive to have a full map of players at that point, which is where the balance comes in.
Let me understand this…you’re trying to boost the players on the most outnumbered side….why? Because you want to incentivize the side outnumbered to keep fighting…
Sure your’re right, I don’t want you to make it overly beneficial to the point where people would have the buff than more people on the map….but on the flipside, I don’t want the buff to be so friggin useless that I really could care less if I have it or not….since it absolutely provides little to no reason to stay on an outmanned map and more often than not if you not looking to roam…your going to leave an outmanned map for a more populated map….the incentive sucks and it needs to be beefed up to be more inline to invite people to come play on that map….
Dragonbrand
Underwater Operations – [WET]
Underwater Operations – [WET]
In that perspective I see it this way
We are playing street football. I have a team of taller, bigger, faster players than the other team. Let’s just say it’s 5 versus 5.
Straight up the stacked team of 5 people crush their 5 since they are not as fast, big, or as tall.
Instead of trying to make it fair and allow the team who is not providing challenge, a acouple extra players who are the same general size, quickness, to the team; they are provided better cleats, helmet, etc.
Accessories that offer buffs unrelated to WvW don’t provide any incentive to join a losing server. The odds of people joining because of the buff, versus the people either staying out of WvW or transfering to a better server are not greater.
Handicap systems have worked in other systems, and I believe it’s still needed here. The only posistive benefit related to WvW is the no armor damage. The rest is irrelevant to WvW.
Just to note, ever since I’ve played WvW which has been over a year, noone has said in any way, shape, or form “ Hey! we are outnumbered in WvW! Let’s get there to take benefit of the buff!!!”
But I have seen, heard countless times “ Wow guys, head to WvW, we are kicking a**!, let’s get more people in on the action!”
So with that mindset, if your server is a losing one, regulars will transfer to the winning servers.
This is what happens without any proper handicap system. People want to be on the winning side. It’s human nature and understandable.
But hey, on the upside ArenaNet is cashing in on the server transfers.
(edited by Antara.3189)
What does Outmanned buff really mean in this game
1)You can’t win
2)Please don’t stay or stay in spawn until the enemies zerg is bored and leave.
3)Avoid yellow cross at all cost.
Kok -lvl 80 warrior Tsukoyu-lvl 80 elementalist
Ayumu-lvl 80 Necromancer
Tsu-lvl 80 thief
Ayumu-lvl 80 Necromancer
Tsu-lvl 80 thief
So if Yaro is correct, it’s currently targeting an audience that provides no benefit to the outcome of WvW.
In my honest opinion, if there was a poll taken and majority stated they felt more incentive to play in WvW because of the outnumbered buff, then I would never make an opinion about it again.
A straight forward, non rigged poll.
So if Yaro is correct, it’s currently targeting an audience that provides no benefit to the outcome of WvW.
In my honest opinion, if there was a poll taken and majority stated they felt more incentive to play in WvW because of the outnumbered buff, then I would never make an opinion about it again.
A straight forward, non rigged poll.
But a poll like that would always be “rigged”, since only a certain group would actually answer it.
Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
So if Yaro is correct, it’s currently targeting an audience that provides no benefit to the outcome of WvW.
In my honest opinion, if there was a poll taken and majority stated they felt more incentive to play in WvW because of the outnumbered buff, then I would never make an opinion about it again.
A straight forward, non rigged poll.
But a poll like that would always be “rigged”, since only a certain group would actually answer it.
Completely subjective and an assumption as I suggested a straight forward, non rigged poll.
As in implmenting a simple message In Game Mail asking whether or not you gain more incentive to play WvW because of the outnumbered buff.
Or even better, place two NPCs like the Council vote in the starting point of the server borderlands. As soon as you enter WvW you recieve 1 token to put towards “Yes, I am more obliged to play during outnumbered” or “No, the outnumbered buff does not give me incentive to play”
So no it’s not rigged.
Furthermore, community representatives of ArenaNet state they want players to help shape the future of the game. Well here’s a prime example on how to get an accurate reflection on how players feel about a certain aspect of the game.
I’ve wanted outmanned and orb buff to be switched since launch so smaller servers or servers with no presence during other server high pop times have a fighting chance if they actually work together. Yet Anet thinks that it’s unfair to give the losing side a slight advantage but the winning side can have as many as they can carry and Anet won’t care.
Still don’t get why you wouldn’t make it so bloodlust adds magic find/exp/gold while providing the point tick for kills. Seems way better than giving bloodlust actual stat buffs making it so zergs flock to them instead of letting roamers/small teams deal with them.
(edited by Emmet.2943)
The main reason to not make it overly beneficial is that it creates a disincentive to have a full map of players at that point, which is where the balance comes in.
#facepalm -.-’
Small incentive to play when outnumbered: Outnumbered buff
Reason: it creates a disincentive if it’s overly beneficial
Massive disincentive to play when outnumbered: Bloodlust buff
Reason: development of WvW is determined by a leprechaun that Devon can only consult with if he can manage to reach the end of a rainbow before it disappears.
You keep saying “balance”…but I don’t think it means what you think it means…
Circumventing profanity filters one kitten at a time.
The idea of outmanned buff ikitteno give enough incentive for more people to join the war on the losing side. Not to make those who are already on the map kittenronger – that would be unfair.
Whether these incentives work as well akittenhey thought to be by developers – I don’t know. Only thing I know is buffing any side of the fence combat-wise, be it losing or winning one, is unfair. Orbs kinda blow in this regard.
Even more specifically, the original intent wakitteno make it so that players had some little bookitten to playing even though you might be getting beaten. The main reason to not make it overly beneficial ikittenhat it creates a disincentive to have a full map of players at that point, which is where the balance comes in.
Bloodlust creates a disincentive to play when you don’t have a full map of players. Trying to fight a losing battle against a full server who gets points-for-stomps is actually more harmful to your team than not playing at all.
It’s amazing that you can’t see how bloodlust is just a mirror-image of outmanned. How you can even talk about outmanned creating “balance issues” and “disincentives” after implementing bloodlust…. I just….. can’t even….
That’s a matter of perspective. Bloolust buffs everyone across all four maps. It gives you an incentive to play on an enemy borderlands (even if you are outmanned) and capture the buff. If you don’t play on an enemy borderland, you essentially forfeit the buff to any server that does.
The buff is an incentive to stop stacking on EB and home borderlands.
I agree that outmanned isn’t the greatest incentive to WvW and the things you can usually accomplish while outmanned (while slightly more rewarding as a result of the buff) tend to be less entertaining (I don’t care too much about gaining extra wxp or more exp or mf if all I’m doing is flipping supply camps, sentries and ninjaing towers). The removal of equipment damage is really good. Death doesn’t feel like a penalty so you have a bit more freedom do be aggressive (or at least not avoid every encounter you aren’t confident you will win) as a result of it. It may not be a lot of money, but it is a psychological difference at the very least. A lot of times I feel like equipment repairs how well I have been playing. Repairing all your armour (even if it’s not that expensive) feels bad.
I’ve also been in situations where I see large numbers of people at spawn just gathering and I know they were the reason I lost outmanned. I do wish they’d leave the map. I can understand the argument that making outmanned too good can cause resentment towards people who cause you to lose it. I think it’d have to be pretty good (or your allies would have to be pretty bad or simply not working with you) for you to want it over more numbers.
I do think more needs to be done to make the situation for outmanned players better.
(edited by Shiren.9532)
That’s a matter of perspective. Bloolust buffs everyone across all four maps. It gives you an incentive to play on an enemy borderlands (even if you are outmanned) and capture the buff.
Good luck capturing and holding 3 points for 2 full minutes on a map where you’re at a 3:1 or greater disadvantage. Especially since both enemy forces get a global warning and countdown timer to de-cap some points or just straight up slaughter you. Bloodlust isn’t really ninja-able how camps and even towers are.
Add to that, your enemies probably already have the buff, if they outnumber you. You are now a WvW objective yourself, yielding points for the enemy every time they stomp you (up to as many as a sentry or dolyak!). That totally negates the “no armor repair fee” as an incentive to face impossible odds, for anyone who gives a crap about points anyway.
It’s better for your server, strategically, if you avoid fighting in outnumbered maps completely (unless you are REALLY good at not dying). With all three bloodlust buffs, less than one stomp per minute average yields more PPT than holding stonemist.
It hasn’t gotten to that point yet, but I can see it getting so people are told to get out of outmanned maps. Not because more players would cause them to lose the outmanned buff, but because dying (possibly) awards the enemy so many points.
Only fight in force, PvD as much as possible, don’t upgrade anything if you’re down anyway; this is the meta I see on the horizon. With leagues coming, add: avoid logging in for weeks at a time if you’re in the bottom of your league.
Hats off to all the ones who stood before me, and taught a fool to ride.
The outmanned buff is fine, what is needed is an outscored buff, that scales the value of towers, camps and keeps up based off the disparity in score. If a realm is getting blown out then every capture should be worth way more.
Adding some fast travel mechanic to the lower score realm on top of this could also help.
The idea of outmanned buff is to give enough incentive for more people to join the war on the losing side. Not to make those who are already on the map stronger – that would be unfair.
Whether these incentives work as well as they thought to be by developers – I don’t know. Only thing I know is buffing any side of the fence combat-wise, be it losing or winning one, is unfair. Orbs kinda blow in this regard.
Even more specifically, the original intent was to make it so that players had some little boost to playing even though you might be getting beaten. The main reason to not make it overly beneficial is that it creates a disincentive to have a full map of players at that point, which is where the balance comes in.
What’s wrong with making it a scaling buff, inversely proportional to the % by which the team is underrepresented?
The idea of outmanned buff is to give enough incentive for more people to join the war on the losing side. Not to make those who are already on the map stronger – that would be unfair.
Whether these incentives work as well as they thought to be by developers – I don’t know. Only thing I know is buffing any side of the fence combat-wise, be it losing or winning one, is unfair. Orbs kinda blow in this regard.
Even more specifically, the original intent was to make it so that players had some little boost to playing even though you might be getting beaten. The main reason to not make it overly beneficial is that it creates a disincentive to have a full map of players at that point, which is where the balance comes in.
I personally don’t mind bloodlust, guard stacks, or any stat boosts. I like how WvW doesn’t exist in a vacuum like Spvp.
That said, I think some people are getting really frustrated with you because it is kind of hypocritical to put in Bloodlust, which does seem to be causing balance issues, and then outright deny all suggestions to add a stat boost to the outmanned buff based solely on not wanting to implement a stat boost that may cause balance issues.
I always thought adding stat bonuses to outnumbered buff would be too much but then came bloodlust.
What’s wrong with making it a scaling buff, inversely proportional to the % by which the team is underrepresented?
That concept has been presented quite a few times at this point, and I think it could solve a lot of wvw issues. Though, I think that having the buff dynamic might start to make issues like skill lag worse. If the buff was just set at two or three intervals, then it could be adjusted by doing an equation that compares player count in any given map (which should already be happening for the current buff).
Ideally, it would be to any given area within a map (imo), but I am not sure that is feasible.
“Balance” issues could be easily adjusted by changing how much of a buff is given.
Adding anything in might make some issues much worse, so who knows what can actually be done.. It seems that the outmanned buff already gets applied, but I am not sure what its “target audience” is. I really only care about the removal of repair costs, but I have never found that to be too much of a problem when our server isnt outmanned on a map.
Most of the people who leave do so because the match is lopsided and not that much fun to play. “Fixing” why that happens seems to be the purpose of the Outmanned Buff, but I am not convinced that it fixes anything. At best, it just makes it less painful for the people that do decide to stick it out.
Henosis [ONE]
06-04-13
NEVER FORGET
06-04-13
NEVER FORGET
(edited by Tuluum.9638)
They won’t give a real buff in the outmanned buff because they(Anet) are scared of griefing, a load of old tosh really.
So if Yaro is correct, it’s currently targeting an audience that provides no benefit to the outcome of WvW.
Devon corrected me as indeed intensive is also for those already on the map so they do not leave as easily. It is just not a “buff” in terms of battle mechanics. And shouldn’t be. As shouldn’t bloodlust IMO.
Team Aggression [TA] – Golden Horde [GH]
The Server or Servers that are doing well get Bloodlust boons now that make them even stronger.
And the side that is getting beat down hard is getting
+20% Magic find
+33% Experience
+10% World Experience
Take no Armor damage on death
Well if you can’t kill anyone because they all have +150 bonus points to power, precision, toughness, vitality, condition damage, and healing power
then what good is your outmaned bonuses?
You need a bonus to help you beat the people who now have huge boons and large overwhelming numbers. It is not an incentive to play in Outmaned its a incentive to leave the map is what it is.
Right now outmanned buff just tells me we don’t have a chance of winning in this lopsided match, so don’t bother logging into WvW and just watch tv or something. It needs a boost to stats. It won’t be unbalanced. Buffs like that have worked in plenty of other games, and you’re ignorant if you think it would encourage people to grief other players to get off the map so they can have the buff. more people is ALWAYS better than having a higher stat boost. But hey, Anet set up bloodlust and gave the side that’s already winning a boost in stats. How does that make sense? You’re delusional if you think the losing side can take and hold the buff. So far, since bloodlust has been implemented, in all the lopsided matches I’ve been in the winning side ALWAYS holds all 3 buffs while the other 2 servers get spawn camped and farmed unable to do anything. That’s what’s happening in the matchup i’m in now, but hey its ok because I have magic find and no repair bill!
Get your crap together Anet and pull your heads out your rears. People are getting sick of the crappy state WvW is in right now. The only reason a lot of us are still here is because you have no competition in terms of MMOs with decent WvW mode. Don’t you think other companies will see this crap and learn from the mistakes you’re making and make a better game? You’ll lose a lot of people as soon as that happens. You guys don’t seem to want to listen to what your customers want though. Reminds me of Jay Wilson and how he was screwing up D3 and everyone playing was unhappy.
(edited by Nikkinella.8254)