Guild Wars 2

I’ll be totally honest, I don’t WvW anywhere near as much as I used to. I used to be in there almost every single day fighting the good fight, but these days I just can’t bring myself to do it. Zerg combat is simply just unfun now.

Stability and Crowd Control need an overhaul in WvW to make combat fun again. It’s the heart of the problem.

Stability

A lot of people are calling for an un-nerf of stability and while I’d personally love to see that happen, I don’t think it will. What I propose is a middle-ground that has been mentioned previously.

Introduce a very small ICD on stability stacks. This would mean that every stack was worth an actual amount of time you’re immune to CC after it being stripped. This would prevent being absolutely blasted by a zerg, losing all your stability and being stunlocked into oblivion.

The time I’m personally in favour of is 0.5s, maybe up to 1s. This would mean that a full amount of stability, 25 stacks, would result in around 12.5s of CC immunity, assuming you can actually hold the stability up for that long. While this might seem like a lot, it’s fairly tricky to attain that much stability with the current balance and we’d be looking at closer to 2.5 – 5s of immunity in bursts. This would also encourage groups not to just blow their entire load the second they get started, it’d encourage tactics and planning.

Crowd Control Overhaul

What I’m proposing isn’t so much a CC overhaul, as much as it is bringing a few problem skills in-line with the rest of the game. Most skills have an actual target limit. This is what allows WvW to function the way it does, however, there is a small number of skills that do not work this way.

Static Field, Unsteady Ground, Line of Warding and other similar skills have no target cap. 100 players can run at one of these things and every single player loses a stack, whereas a skill like Charge of Mists (a bit broken in itself) will still only effect 3 players with each hit. It has a target cap.

I propose adding a cap to these skills. 5 targets or “charges” on the skill. After the charges are used, the skill disappears. This is no different to every other skill in the game. Adding this skill would allow for more tactical planning of CCs, instead of just blasting an incoming zerg with a couple of statics and stripping every single stack of stability on the entire zerg.

Conclusion

These two changes, in my opinion, would be completely game changing and could be the first step in bringing back the melee-meta that many of us loved. Yes, there is other issues that result in the current pirate-ship meta, but again, this could be a healthy step in the right direction, allowing for better counter-play and varied compositions. I can see no reason not to add these changes, as their effects on other areas of the game would be practically non-existent, so ArenaNet wont even have to separate the skills/buffs.

Regardless if this or something similar gets implemented or not, ArenaNet needs to remember that an Overhaul to WvW is not just about it’s overarching mechanics. It’s about the little bits like class balance and combat. These are the nitty gritty parts that are going to be the difference between success and failure. The combat is a huge element of what makes WvW fun and if it isn’t addressed, then any overhaul will fall flat on it’s face.

If they make any changes it should be small tweaks only.

The more skilled a player the better they can time their stability, dodge rolls, stun breaks, invuns and so on. Learn to play is still the biggest issue with WvW.

I’ve been heavily advocating a 0.5s icd because it makes the minimum stab duration from “SYG!” short enough that you still get punished for blindly ramming through CC bombs. It retains the current interaction of stab and hard CC being each other’s primary counterplays and I really like that. Since SYG is the main stab skill in WvW, 1 second would effectively be almost equivalent to a full reversion.

I strongly disagree with your second suggestion, though. As long as this interaction exists, it’s very important to have the no-limit CCs so as not to favor the larger group too much.
We currently have 3 main aspects of a fight that are affected by the group size: damage mitigation (because of the target cap on damage skills), damage output (of course), and freedom of movement (stab vs hard and soft CC).

If you put a limitation on stab removal by CC and retain the no-limit CCs, you effectively make groups of different sizes almost equal in the movement aspect. The bigger group will still have more soft CC, but since there’s now a limit on how much hard CC you can make use of, as long as the small group can reach this limit they’re close to equal (e.g. 20 v 30-40).
If you impose a target limit on hard CC, the bigger group gets a big advantage because they’ll be able to overwhelm the CC potential of the small group.
Additionally, it would make it too easy for backlines without stab to push because the frontline clears all the CC just by running through it.

displayname.8315:

If they make any changes it should be small tweaks only.

The more skilled a player the better they can time their stability, dodge rolls, stun breaks, invuns and so on. Learn to play is still the biggest issue with WvW.

Learning to play in and of itself doesn’t automatically make the current CC-stab balance in WvW fun.

For example, I’d argue that something like the PvP Pro teams have already learned to play yet it doesn’t remove the fact that the Season 1 PvP meta was not fun to the point where one team even forfeited a match because all three points were perma-contested but the other team managed a few points.

The stab change was a HUGE tweak that strongly punishes small mistakes even skilled players can make from time to time. What people are asking for is a re-evaluation of how strongly one is punished for those tiny mistakes. Also, when you say it is about skill, how much skill really is involved in a zerg of DH spamming Hunter’s Ward?

Don’t forget that soft CC is nearly all conditions which is cleansable to the point that its currently useless against any sort of a half decent organized group.

I would like to see a gross reduction in AOE cleanse spam as well as passive stunbreak / invuln / etc. effect spam, instead have all these slightly buffed and made active, or tied to currently underused active abilities.

That would actually better reflect player skill rather then just run a “blind stab build + hide in zerg”.

I wish A-Net would come out with some sort of official “intent” statement on the overall balance much like the ones found in other games. As is, things are way out of whack, for exmple:

when I play my rev I am nothing but almost free kill for any good reaper, whereas when I play my scrapper the situation is reversed, i basically LOL @ reapers due to the amount and nature of my passives with rest of my build being “anti-cc” focused (both soft and hard)

not even sure if this is working as intended, because I have never even seen an official statement from a-net where they clearly state if the balance in the game is supposed to be “rock-paper-scissors” style or not, i am just assuming it based on what results i get in the game with various classes / builds.

displayname.8315:

If they make any changes it should be small tweaks only.

The more skilled a player the better they can time their stability, dodge rolls, stun breaks, invuns and so on. Learn to play is still the biggest issue with WvW.

Ah the ol’ “everybody’s bad but me” bit.

I’m taking for granted that since this post is not in the warriors forum a kiter is not happy with the state of stability.

You do know that stability was broken to cripple the warrior class and it worked…

Most have adapted though so now it’s your turn or run the risk of being labeled with such terms as simplistic, boring, button smasher, noobish, passive and having a l2p problem.

Chaba.5410:

Learning to play in and of itself doesn’t automatically make the current CC-stab balance in WvW fun.

The stab change was a HUGE tweak that strongly punishes small mistakes even skilled players can make from time to time. What people are asking for is a re-evaluation of how strongly one is punished for those tiny mistakes. Also, when you say it is about skill, how much skill really is involved in a zerg of DH spamming Hunter’s Ward?

Fun is objective. You know the players that can hold their own in a fight. And you can tell when a 1-push wipe is from l2p issues. Even on the old school classes you can manage to have fun and last to the end.

Interesting that people never really discuss the invulnerable skills heavy’s get, or anything about stun breaks and vigor, dodging, skills with evades. passives in your class build. It’s always just stability.

I agree that DH ward spam is out of control and should be nerfed. But don’t see the need to make stability EZ mode because of it.

displayname.8315:

Interesting that people never really discuss the invulnerable skills heavy’s get, or anything about stun breaks and vigor, dodging, skills with evades. passives in your class build. It’s always just stability.

None of those skills or mechanics were changed like stab was. Also because this:

I agree that DH ward spam is out of control and should be nerfed. But don’t see the need to make stability EZ mode because of it.

The old stab was easy mode. Asking for a slight internal cooldown won’t make it suddenly easy mode. Overwhelming CC bombs will still strip all the stacks.

i think even if they adjusted stability it would still be a problem due to the massive aoe skill spamfest that happens in large fights. you may not get cc’ed but i doubt you’d be able to live with the awesome balance this game has to offer.

Chaba.5410:

a slight internal cooldown won’t make it suddenly easy mode. Overwhelming CC bombs will still strip all the stacks.

Meh I guess a slight cooldown on the stack strip. Would that mean it takes 12 seconds to strip full stacks? 5 seconds to stip a stack of 10? That would be pretty much be going back to the old stab where the amount of hits doesn’t matter.

Or are you sayin it’s not balanced for even odds and “normal” sized fights? Seems we’re just talking about small vs overwhelm.

Chaba.5410:

None of those skills or mechanics were changed like stab was. Also because this:

So I take it you mean all the active and passive invuns, stun breaks, cleanses and such were to counter stuff like DH spam? There’s still some guild builds that are tough to stop with cc spam. And of course they’re doing things like using teamspeak and training together.

displayname.8315:

So I take it you mean all the active and passive invuns, stun breaks, cleanses and such were to counter stuff like DH spam?

It was simply an answer to your question of why no one is mentioning those yet are talking about stab. Stab mechanic was changed. Those were not.

Chaba.5410:

It was simply an answer to your question of why no one is mentioning those yet are talking about stab. Stab mechanic was changed. Those were not.

Aah. I think it’s more because fights were basically: pop group stab, charge in, spam 1. Simple and easy to understand.

Now you have to be good at adapting, positioning, timing, cooldowns, builds, and teamwork if you wanna melee push.

displayname.8315:

Now you have to be good at adapting, positioning, timing, cooldowns, builds, and teamwork if you wanna melee push.

Saying ‘I can still win by doing what was always required to be effective in melee and playing against t1 scrubs’ doesn’t justify stability not being able to do it’s only job.

-0.5sec icd on stability removal , yes that’s what I was thinking as well .
-change cc skills with cap [static/lines of warding/Unsteady Ground/Circle of warding etc] , no just no cuz you can always go around them no need to nerf those skills

I would like to add 1 thing though this icd will kill those classes who use boon removal/corrupt.
like say necro corrupt stability to fear but it’s 1 stack because of icd & the enemy doesn’t get feared cuz he has other stacks of stability like ever.
-
I would suggest corrupt/removal skills has a cap to 3-5 stack of stability conversion before the icd starts. balance team can figure out what number of stack is not op.
I would say 5 stack/corruption tick since most skills has 5stack stab anyway otherwise corruption fear will never work.

Coldtart.4785:

displayname.8315:

Now you have to be good at adapting, positioning, timing, cooldowns, builds, and teamwork if you wanna melee push.

Saying ‘I can still win by doing what was always required to be effective in melee and playing against t1 scrubs’ doesn’t justify stability not being able to do it’s only job.

Hehe..

I think stability does it job if you use it right. In combination with things like melee elites that also give stability or invuns. The melee stab abilities are also a stun break, I find it best to use them AS a stunbreak, instead of an EZ mode preparation.

I really like the idea of a .5 second ICD per stab stack, one of the best suggestions I’ve seen on the forums.
I disagree with the target cap on certain CC abilities though, partially because that’s most of what they bring, like Line of Warding, Rock Wall, Static Field, and so on (I do think Hunter’s Ward is way too good though)
With even numbers there’s not TOO MUCH of an issue, but it’s still there. But if you have considerably fewer players, 20 vs 40 for example, you’re going to NEED to either surprise the larger group with a port, invis, or a flank, hope they’re not smart enough to save some of their CC after you bait out some, or hope they miss a lot of their CC.

I don’t like the idea of reverting to the old “I’ve got no chains on me!” Stab, but I do believe that’s better than the current usefulness of Stab in some situations. That said, I’d much prefer that .5 second ICD so you don’t need massive amounts of stab, which is easier to corrupt with the buffed corruption on Necro, to escape a Hunter’s Ward or two.

Widebody.5071:

I’m taking for granted that since this post is not in the warriors forum a kiter is not happy with the state of stability.

You do know that stability was broken to cripple the warrior class and it worked…

Most have adapted though so now it’s your turn or run the risk of being labeled with such terms as simplistic, boring, button smasher, noobish, passive and having a l2p problem.

Speaking of warrior…

You know, the funny thing is, my kitless hammer scrapper now feels like a hammer warrior from GWEN days but on steroids. Yea, stab is less effective, but the invulns, reflects, condi immunes (or total effeects which might as well be immunes) and evades far more then make up for it, and the CC is just so insane.

So on some part, its definetly a player issue and lack of adaptability and powercreep FTW.

Tongku.5326:

Widebody.5071:

I’m taking for granted that since this post is not in the warriors forum a kiter is not happy with the state of stability.

You do know that stability was broken to cripple the warrior class and it worked…

Most have adapted though so now it’s your turn or run the risk of being labeled with such terms as simplistic, boring, button smasher, noobish, passive and having a l2p problem.

Speaking of warrior…

You know, the funny thing is, my kitless hammer scrapper now feels like a hammer warrior from GWEN days but on steroids. Yea, stab is less effective, but the invulns, reflects, condi immunes (or total effeects which might as well be immunes) and evades far more then make up for it, and the CC is just so insane.

So on some part, its definetly a player issue and lack of adaptability and powercreep FTW.

scrapper is pretty good in large fights.. i just started to mess with one but still not that great on him but i do dive into large numbers and make it back out in 1 piece.. sometimes lol.. its good for baiting and running through all them skill spammers :P

briggah.7910:

Tongku.5326:

Widebody.5071:

I’m taking for granted that since this post is not in the warriors forum a kiter is not happy with the state of stability.

You do know that stability was broken to cripple the warrior class and it worked…

Most have adapted though so now it’s your turn or run the risk of being labeled with such terms as simplistic, boring, button smasher, noobish, passive and having a l2p problem.

Speaking of warrior…

You know, the funny thing is, my kitless hammer scrapper now feels like a hammer warrior from GWEN days but on steroids. Yea, stab is less effective, but the invulns, reflects, condi immunes (or total effeects which might as well be immunes) and evades far more then make up for it, and the CC is just so insane.

So on some part, its definetly a player issue and lack of adaptability and powercreep FTW.

scrapper is pretty good in large fights.. i just started to mess with one but still not that great on him but i do dive into large numbers and make it back out in 1 piece.. sometimes lol.. its good for baiting and running through all them skill spammers :P

Ooooo oooooo

I advise you to stick with it. Go scrapper / elixir and full tank / CC, then if you can get just 2-3 more such scrappers and 1-2 correctly specced druids, you guys will be able to take out entire large groups regardless of what they throw at you and basically laugh at every pirateship complaint post on these forums. Its freagin amazing.

Also, its very flexible, just switch weapon + 1-2 gear pieces to offensive and switch your elite + 1 util and now you have a pretty ubber roaming build. You can even take the same thing out to PVE land and do well with it on almost any content except raids just by going more into the offensive side.

Engineer has always been able to dive into large groups and make it back out in one piece most of the time. Used to rely on pistol/shield and kits for what the hammer does these days. In other words, it was more work to achieve similar results.

Tongku.5326:

briggah.7910:

Tongku.5326:

Widebody.5071:

I’m taking for granted that since this post is not in the warriors forum a kiter is not happy with the state of stability.

You do know that stability was broken to cripple the warrior class and it worked…

Most have adapted though so now it’s your turn or run the risk of being labeled with such terms as simplistic, boring, button smasher, noobish, passive and having a l2p problem.

Speaking of warrior…

You know, the funny thing is, my kitless hammer scrapper now feels like a hammer warrior from GWEN days but on steroids. Yea, stab is less effective, but the invulns, reflects, condi immunes (or total effeects which might as well be immunes) and evades far more then make up for it, and the CC is just so insane.

So on some part, its definetly a player issue and lack of adaptability and powercreep FTW.

scrapper is pretty good in large fights.. i just started to mess with one but still not that great on him but i do dive into large numbers and make it back out in 1 piece.. sometimes lol.. its good for baiting and running through all them skill spammers :P

Ooooo oooooo

I advise you to stick with it. Go scrapper / elixir and full tank / CC, then if you can get just 2-3 more such scrappers and 1-2 correctly specced druids, you guys will be able to take out entire large groups regardless of what they throw at you and basically laugh at every pirateship complaint post on these forums. Its freagin amazing.

Also, its very flexible, just switch weapon + 1-2 gear pieces to offensive and switch your elite + 1 util and now you have a pretty ubber roaming build. You can even take the same thing out to PVE land and do well with it on almost any content except raids just by going more into the offensive side.

i do pretty good roaming on scrapper as well.. can hold my own pretty much in most 1vs1. since i never really tried engie much and decided to try scrapper my gear right now is all mixed stuff. some defense stuff and some offense stuff. seems to work well in both zerging and roaming..

i also switch around my elites. been messing around with exlir x for when i zerg and sometimes when roaming i switch to that stealth gyro.. have to say though it is a lot of fun to play. i never could master engie lol but i’m really liking the scrapper

once i get hang of it i’ll probably experiment more

displayname.8315:

I think stability does it job if you use it right.

No, it does it’s job against people that don’t know how to use cc. You could pop stand your ground 1 frame before cc lines appear at your feet which is absolutely, undeniably using it right and get no benefit because there were 6+ lines.

Tongku.5326:

Ooooo oooooo

I advise you to stick with it. Go scrapper / elixir and full tank / CC, then if you can get just 2-3 more such scrappers and 1-2 correctly specced druids, you guys will be able to take out entire large groups

Wow that sounds sick and would probably work for zergbusting. Stuff like that is how you can fight and manage the “bombs” of the enemy group.

Most classes you can build to do similar stuff, or to sustain in a zergfight.

The ICD concept would be an improvement and a middle ground of sorts between the old way and the new one.

The main problem with most suggestions is that the changes would be game breaking either in small scale or large scale. The ICD does seem to work here as well. Small scale fights wouldn’t see OP stab (any more than they already do) and large scale wouldn’t be completely leave melee builds out.

briggah.7910:

scrapper is pretty good in large fights.. i just started to mess with one but still not that great on him but i do dive into large numbers and make it back out in 1 piece.. sometimes lol.. its good for baiting and running through all them skill spammers :P

Scrapper arguably has the best survivability of any class now and with the hammer has good dps. I’m using it in frontline now as well in preference to guard and rev.

displayname.8315:

Tongku.5326:

Ooooo oooooo

I advise you to stick with it. Go scrapper / elixir and full tank / CC, then if you can get just 2-3 more such scrappers and 1-2 correctly specced druids, you guys will be able to take out entire large groups

Wow that sounds sick and would probably work for zergbusting. Stuff like that is how you can fight and manage the “bombs” of the enemy group.

Most classes you can build to do similar stuff, or to sustain in a zergfight.

It does. My guild ran it before they all left the game, our opponents usually had no freagin clue whats happening to them, and to top it off they couldn’t figure out why our health wasn’t going down and why no one downed while standing and not moving directly in the pirateship map blob’s AOEs.

I used to know someone using “displayname” PM me your main (possibly past name not from YB server) characters name if you ever used to command, if its the same person we’ll get in touch and I’ll give you some details on the builds and comps. May take me a while to get back to you.

If you’re not the person I’m thinking of, then sorry to bother you.