Guild Wars 2

TLDR: A scoring system that tries to find balance between Fight oriented play and Territorial control play. PPT is removed and 40% of the score is now the result of fight skill. PPT is replaced with a Dolyak based scoring system (PPC,PPU,PPSC) that gives roamers and havoc groups more impact on score. And by increasing the scoring options, more creative strategies can be developed leading to more interesting gameplay. You still must play to win, but now the outcome is based on Fighting skill, strategy and community organization.

How do you think this type of scoring mechanism would alter WvW strategies and Behavior?

FIGHTS AND DOLYAKS

There are many complaints about PPT regarding nightcapping. While this is a problem it isn’t the biggest problem with PPT. IMO the biggest problem with PPT is the lack of scoring options. Prior to PPK, the score was 60% PPT and 40% PPSC (Points per Supply Caravan). The addition of PPK didn’t alter this balance much. The basic strategy in this scoring mechanism is to hold as much as possible while killing yaks or protecting deliveries. All other events while they could aid in the scoring factors were at best tangential. Creating more options in the scoring mechanism can lead to more creative strategic gameplay.

It addition to the existing systems lack of options, many players feel that it completely disregards the value of fighting oriented playstyle. Due to population imbalances, the score no longer reflected who could defend the best of capture the best because off hour captures offered little resistance. In addition the off hour scoring greatly imbalances the final result.

What I suggest is a somewhat balanced scoring system that takes into account Fights, territorial control and logistics: Fights and Dolyaks.

The Dolyaks

The dolyaks become the primary focus of territorial control scoring. Unlike PPT which benefits from holding large amounts of assets, dolyaks can be easily contested by small groups. And since the new mechanic for upgrades is dependent on Dolyaks small groups and stifle an enemy with guerrilla tactics by disrupting supply caravans. In addition Dolyaks are only useful if supply connection exists between the camp and objective it supplies. So camp control becomes instrumental and a potential area of high conflict.

Terminology and score calculation for territorial control:

PPC: Points per Capture. Whenever a non-camp objective is captured points are given on a one time basis based on the tier of the objective. Tier simply represents a multiplier (tier + 1) to the objectives old PPT value. So a Tier 0 Tower is worth 10 points (10 X 1) and a tier 3 tower is worth 40 (10 × 4). Camps are excluded because their primary function is now the production of dolyaks.

PPU: Points per Upgrade. Whenever any objective upgrades points are awarded based on the old PPT value. 5 for camps, 10 for towers, 25 for keeps and 35 for castle. PPU rewards defense and creates an additional incentive to capture objectives. These points are dependent upon camps and dolyaks.

PPSC: Points per Supply Caravan. Every time a Supply Dolyak makes it to its objective, 1 point is awarded to the owner of the objective. If a dolyak is killed, a point is awarded to the killing team. Dolyaks become the most important component on the territorial control side as it still represents a form of passive scoring, but is easily contestable by small groups. And unlike PPT, capturing camps can completely shut down all passive scoring and stop upgrades. Roamers and Havoc groups can make a more meaningful contribution to the score by shutting down enemy supply.

Weights and multipliers:
These are used for experimental purposes to balance the score. Scoring occurs as above but then modified by a multiplier to adjust the relative value of each component. My current model applies the following multipliers: PPC x 2, PPU x 3, PPSC x 2.

The Fights

There are two problems with PPK. First, 1 point for one kill says nothing of the skill of the fighters. Simply engaging in more fights will ultimately result in more kills. Excluding deaths from the equation makes PPK a measure of volume of activity. Secondly, the relative value of PPK is dependent on the amount of fight activity going on. If fewer fights are occurring, then the score is quickly skewed towards territorial control. This could be the result of a low activity tier or players intentionally avoiding fights.

To fix these elements I add KDR adjusted killscore and make the fight portion of the score locked at 40% of total score (or 0.667 of the total territorial score.)

Calculating the Fight points:

First calculate KDR by dividing kills by deaths (Max KDR is 3, Min KDR is 0.334). Then multiply the KDR by the number of kills to get a killscore.

The next step is to weight the killscore points to 40% total points. It goes like this:
(PPC + PPU + PPSC) * 0.667 * (server Killscore/sum of all Killscores)

This calculation results in the fight score being equal to 40% of the total score. However the portion of that 40% that goes to each server is dependent on the their fighting skill and fighting volume.

EXAMPLES:

Tier 1 NA (charts attached)

This example assumes that all dolyaks successfully arrive to their destinations. It bases the Tier of the Objective on the old time model. The reason for these two assumptions is that I do not a this time have access to dolyak success or objective tier data in the API. So I am guessing but it is still useful to give a sense of how the score would look and how much each scoring component contributes to the overall score.

The first chart shows the raw data for PPT, Killscore, PPC, PPU, PPSC and PPT before adjusting the weights.

The second chart shows the weighted values and the final total score. PPT and PPK are weighted zero so have no score contribution. overall killscore contributes 40%, PPC ~15%, PPU ~15% and PPSC ~ 30%. While the Killscore is fixed at 40% the other three contributions can vary depending on activity level. Low activity can result in a much larger contribution from PPSC.

Tier 8 NA (charts attached)

This shows how the score contribution changes in a low activity environment.
Killscore is still 40% but PPC, PPU and PPSC are 6.5%, 11%, and 42.5% respectively. This shows a high amount of passive scoring however it would be easier for an out-manned server to compensate by securing camps and hunting yaks. These examples cannot account for how strategies would change since they use historical data based on another system.

Dolyak Tweaks

Here are couple tweaks that could be done to dolyaks but are not represented in the data.

Asymmetrical Dolyak value: Killing a dolyak is always worth the base one point however successful dolyak deliveries are now worth the tier + 1 points. This means that enemies will be less likely to let you coast with a tier 3 objective as it is now producing more points.

Modulating Yak spawn rate: If off hours play is still considered a problem the Yak spawn rate can be slowed down during off peak hours. This reduces not only the PPSC points but slows down upgrades which reduces that scoring as well.

I… I just….. do you…. are we playing the same game???? Players couldn’t care less about Doylaks. It’s an “Oh look kill it!” as they run past at best. Escorting and getting players to escort is like pulling teeth. I literally had to start paying gold to get players to do jobs like this and bloodlust.

Interesting idea, will read more on it when I got more time. But I liked a good bit of what I saw so far.

DeWolfe.2174:

I… I just….. do you…. are we playing the same game???? Players couldn’t care less about Doylaks. It’s an “Oh look kill it!” as they run past at best. Escorting and getting players to escort is like pulling teeth. I literally had to start paying gold to get players to do jobs like this and bloodlust.

I was offering it as an alternative to PPT. Dolyak scoring is already a thing. Right now dolyaks are worth about 3 points killed or delivered and they spawn at approximately 4 minute intervals. Dolyaks are now responsible for upgrades also and are still dependent on camps.

Its not that I think Dolyaks should be the most important thing, notice the point was to balance the territorial control with fights. I am only suggesting that basing territorial control on dolyaks as opposed to PPT is a better strategy.

The way this scoring system is set up increases the value of fights while making the territorial points more contestable.

What would you do in place of dolyaks? or would you ditch territorial scoring all togther?

dolyaks need to be worth 1 point at most, its ridiculous how much score they give

Dolyaks spawn much more frequently than 4m intervals. There’s only kitten delay on their respawn (5m if killed) so they tend to jump out every ~2m or so, depending on the camp. As such, your estimate of PPT to PPYak ratio is way off.

That said, I can’t agree with the way you figure PPK into it. The best killscore always goes to the server with the most people…skill isn’t a real factor. Making it such a huge chunk of the score will only serve to exacerbate the current population issues.

Also, winning fights already translates into points because that team can then take an objective. There’s no need to categorically make those fights also generate direct points on such a large scale. It simply means people are winning while they’re winning which, inevitably, leads to snowball scores.

Sviel.7493:

Dolyaks spawn much more frequently than 4m intervals. There’s only kitten delay on their respawn (5m if killed) so they tend to jump out every ~2m or so, depending on the camp. As such, your estimate of PPT to PPYak ratio is way off.

I’m pretty sure I am close with my estimate. The 4 minute spawn rate isn’t for each camp but rather for each supply connection each camp has. So a camp that supplies 2 objectives will spawn 2 dolyaks over a four minute period. A camp that supplies 3 objectives will have 3 dolyaks spawn. and so on.

If my estimate was wrong my score approximations would be way off rather than just 1-2%.

I could bore you with the details if you like. I think I still have the spreadsheet somewhere.

now there wont be anymore PvDoor
there will be PvDolyak lmfao

Sviel.7493:

That said, I can’t agree with the way you figure PPK into it. The best killscore always goes to the server with the most people…skill isn’t a real factor. Making it such a huge chunk of the score will only serve to exacerbate the current population issues.

That is not necessarily true. Sure servers that like to blob will do slightly better in fights due to numbers advantage but smaller groups will be less likely to engage in the first place. Also blobbing would present a disadvantage in territorial control.

The goal was to find a middle ground where both strategies could be viable. However more balanced servers would probably perform better overall.

Norbe.7630:

now there wont be anymore PvDoor
there will be PvDolyak lmfao

There will always be PvSomethingNotaPlayer in WvW. I think its unavoidable.

whats the difference between a door and a dolyak?

a door takes time to kill
a dolyak takes seconds to kill

a door can call for help
a dolyak is dead before anyone can help

if there is no door, then there is no dolyak…
thats the story of a door and a dolyak

PS: no more exploits for hackers, i beg you

Norbe.7630:

whats the difference between a door and a dolyak?

a door takes time to kill
a dolyak takes seconds to kill

a door can call for help
a dolyak is dead before anyone can help

if there is no door, then there is no dolyak…
thats the story of a door and a dolyak

The doors will still exist and they can still call for help. There is nothing in this scoring model that precludes the use of objective doors. I would even lobby to put doors on the dolyak pens so that you had to beat them down to kill the dolyaks inside.

I wouldn’t be against giving the sentries doors also. They can just stand there an hold them while you hit them.

There will always be a place for PvD in WvW.

TorquedSoul.8097:

I’m pretty sure I am close with my estimate. The 4 minute spawn rate isn’t for each camp but rather for each supply connection each camp has. So a camp that supplies 2 objectives will spawn 2 dolyaks over a four minute period. A camp that supplies 3 objectives will have 3 dolyaks spawn. and so on.

If my estimate was wrong my score approximations would be way off rather than just 1-2%.

I could bore you with the details if you like. I think I still have the spreadsheet somewhere.

Here’s an incomplete list of travel times for yaks. I don’t have time to dig up the more polished stuff but it should suffice.

Here are the travel times for Dolyaks from camps to objectives.

NEC to Airkeep – 2:05, 2:12
NEC to Rampart – 3:57

NEC PPT = 5 + 21 + 12 = 38

NWC to Firekeep – 2:10
NWC to Rampart – 4:36

NWC PPT = 5 + 21 + 12 = 38

NC (west) to Rampart – 2:48
NC (east) to Rampart – 2:22
NC to NET – 3:54
NC to NWT – 3:16

NC PPT = 5 + 12 + 12 + 9 + 12 = 50

SEC to Airkeep – 3:14
SEC to SET – 2:08

SEC PPT = 5 + 12 + 21 = 38

As you can see, during any 4 minute period, each camp spawns at least 3 yaks.

As for the ratio, the borderlands have 145 points from objectives and a potential ~220 points from yaks. If we factor in an EBG corner (75 points) for a team that doesn’t own SMC (no yak points) then it becomes 220 points from objectives and 220 points from yaks—that is the absolute limit of objective PPT contribution: 50%.

If you were intending to include EBG w/o SMC, then it was only 10% off, which isn’t too far.

edit: FUN FACT—since the change to the south Airkeep layout, that yak now runs in slow motion to preserve the travel time.

Sviel.7493:

TorquedSoul.8097:

I’m pretty sure I am close with my estimate. The 4 minute spawn rate isn’t for each camp but rather for each supply connection each camp has. So a camp that supplies 2 objectives will spawn 2 dolyaks over a four minute period. A camp that supplies 3 objectives will have 3 dolyaks spawn. and so on.

If my estimate was wrong my score approximations would be way off rather than just 1-2%.

I could bore you with the details if you like. I think I still have the spreadsheet somewhere.

Here’s an incomplete list of travel times for yaks. I don’t have time to dig up the more polished stuff but it should suffice.

Here are the travel times for Dolyaks from camps to objectives.

NEC to Airkeep – 2:05, 2:12
NEC to Rampart – 3:57

NEC PPT = 5 + 21 + 12 = 38

NWC to Firekeep – 2:10
NWC to Rampart – 4:36

NWC PPT = 5 + 21 + 12 = 38

NC (west) to Rampart – 2:48
NC (east) to Rampart – 2:22
NC to NET – 3:54
NC to NWT – 3:16

NC PPT = 5 + 12 + 12 + 9 + 12 = 50

SEC to Airkeep – 3:14
SEC to SET – 2:08

SEC PPT = 5 + 12 + 21 = 38

As you can see, during any 4 minute period, each camp spawns at least 3 yaks.

As for the ratio, the borderlands have 145 points from objectives and a potential ~220 points from yaks. If we factor in an EBG corner (75 points) for a team that doesn’t own SMC (no yak points) then it becomes 220 points from objectives and 220 points from yaks—that is the absolute limit of objective PPT contribution: 50%.

If you were intending to include EBG w/o SMC, then it was only 10% off, which isn’t too far.

edit: FUN FACT—since the change to the south Airkeep layout, that yak now runs in slow motion to preserve the travel time.

There is much easier way to calculate the PPT contribution just by looking at the total scoring of tier.

I’ve attached a table with Tier 2 NA values to show scoring contributions.

Regarding PPT, this is pretty much a fixed value every week. Total Points per Tick x 4 x hours of day x days of week. So 695 × 4 × 24 x 7 =467,040.

Points per kill is 1 point per kill so using Tier 2 data, 103,306 points.

So the contribution of PPSC = Total score – PPT – PPK. PPSC = 922,836 – 467,040 – 103,306 = 352,490 or 38% of total score.

But its contribution relative to PPT (PPSC/PPT) is 75%. So PPT is currently worth more than Yaks. And prior to the implementation of PPK, PPT was routinely between 58%-62% of the total score. The level to which PPSC contributes to points is dependent on how effectively teams keep the camps connected to their supplied objectives. I think a theoretical maximum for PPSC would be something like this total supply connects x minutes in week * 0.75. Total supply connects is something like 15 per BL plus 22 for EBG which gives a total of 67 connections. Max PPSC = 67 × 0.75 * 10080 = 506,520. So for tier 2 last week their overall supply efficiency was in the neighborhood of 70% which is pretty good.

However you were right about the yaks and their travel times. I reached my conclusion about the yak spawn rate by working backwards through the data.

Using tier 2 as an example again, I estimate that the PPSC is 348,928 which is off the above value of 352,490 by 1%. That is a pretty good estimation. And this estimation is based on the belief that 1 yak worth 3 points spawns every 4 minutes OR 0.75 points per active supply connection between a camp and objective.

The way I calculate my PPSC is by calculating how much time in minutes an objective is being supplied by a camp and then multiplying that total by 0.75.

Its interesting that this actually works given the variety of the travel times of yaks. So I decided to do a little check myself using the BL maps. I watched yaks coming from NEC to NET, Garri and Air Keep. The camp was owned by the owner of all three objectives. So here is what I saw:

1 yak would leave from the camp and travel to the tower and the same yak would leave the tower and then proceed to Garri. Travel time to garri ~ 4 min.

1 yak would leave the camp and go to the air keep with a travel and respawn time of ~2 min.

So every 4 minutes (12 minutes total supply time) this camp delivered 3 yaks for 9 points. 9 points every 12 minutes ~ 0.75 per supply connect minute. I think the actual number I use for my calculation is slightly less than 0.75 (0.7255) which mean slightly slower global spawn rate.

While model didn’t accurately predict the actual movements of the yaks the numbers still work out. Which is interesting. This means that some yak routes may be more valuable than others although I don’t know that I am ambitious enough to time every yak route to sort this out.

Ah, the difference is that I was calculating the potential points while you were working backwards from the actual points. Both datasets are useful, though I prefer the potential since I don’t think that current playstyles take full advantage of the scoring system.

Still, my main objection to your system is the contribution of killscore. I’m fine with shifting points away from PPT but not if it means going to PPC and PPK rather than PPY (or PPSC as you’ve called it).

Right, if you were calculating maximum potential points then PPSC would be higher than PPT by about 8.5%.

But max PPSC is never achieved and PPT points will always be the same regardless. PPSC is usually around 60% of its max.

dubstax.9102:

Escorts are the most boring thing to do in WvW. Furthermore, good luck escorting and not (maybe better chance if on a BL) running into a gigantic blob. The population shifts have made WvW 90% blob fighting in almost everywhere. I’d rather not escort just to end up being zerg melted or better seeing the zerg and running for my life so as not get zerg melted.

Yaks are worth points now and don’t typically have escorts. I doubt that dumping PPT will result in any significant changes in that regard.

In what I propose, the yaks are worth about the same as they were before to the total score (maybe a little less.) So there is actually less incentive to escort a yak.

I agree PPT needs to go. points should only be flowing in if there is constant activity, not just for capping an objective and leaving, so your system makes sense to me. I think people are getting hung up on the dolyak aspect of it and not seeing the bigger picture of how scoring would work without PPT.

this is good stuff.