Guild Wars 2

Nokaru.7831:

Nevron.9413

There was so much bad in that video that I found it hard to even focus on what the thief was doing.

You say that, but there is no other profession that can just troll a large group of bad players toe to toe, exploiting their inexperience in WvW. Any other class which is in that situation would have to run (or die in <30 seconds); not a thief. They just abuse the fact that Stealth lingers for 1-2 seconds after it’s actually over.

I agree, but there was still an extreme amount of bad in the video. At one point his stealth fails and he’s still able to finish someone, beyond the point where the culling problems would have prevented being visible. If even a small handful of those players were relatively competent, he would not have been able to get away with it as long as he did.

For a supply camp? If anything that means the zergs are punishing each other. I’m okay with this. This game needs to be weened off of zerging, it’s like a drug.

“Every time they damage you they will pop out of stealth for at least 3 seconds. When he does you can lock him down and kill him. "

Thieves are the 2nd hardest class to lock down in the game (mesmers #1).

MrPicklez.6473:

For a supply camp? If anything that means the zergs are punishing each other. I’m okay with this. This game needs to be weened off of zerging, it’s like a drug.

Not going to happen. Nature of the beast. Thieves need to be weened off hitting for 30K in three seconds and being perma stealthed. They are well on the way to ruining WVW. Its like a drug for baddies that play thieves.

swilkers.5938:

Not going to happen. Nature of the beast. Thieves need to be weened off hitting for 30K in three seconds and being perma stealthed. They are well on the way to ruining WVW. Its like a drug for baddies that play thieves.

I’m totally fine with removing burst builds and things like perma-stealth that are lame. If we do that though, the Anet should really remove the downed state. Its intended purpose was to counter the burst builds, if they don’t exist, there is no reason it should either.

Also, I just wanted to point out that there isn’t really a way for thieves to hit for 30k in 3 seconds and remain perma stealthed. If somehow a thief has built all glass cannon and is permastealthing (tends to require smokescreen and cluster bomb, shadow refuge as well if you want to hit the 25s cap), they shouldn’t be hard to deal with. Glass cannon thieves die to AOE’s like no other. It’s likely that the thief in the video has a fairly tanky 0/30/30/10/0 spec or something of the like, probably with somewhat tanky gear. I do agree that stealth holding points needs to be dealt with, though. Just allowing you to not cap a point from capping in stealth would be a simple solution.

Looking forward to that nerf. Until then – everybody just go roll a thief.

You can’t capture or hold a point while in stealth…

See, thats the problem. People are complaining about Thieves without having any idea how the skills work.

I have to know just what sever half you guys are playing on that are making all these videos, bug or not, the sever I am and and the severs we fight with, pull a stun like that and that WHOLE zerg with have stomped ya into the ground, be the fastest 5sec clip you would have ever seen!

Rengaru.4730:

You can’t capture or hold a point while in stealth…

See, thats the problem. People are complaining about Thieves without having any idea how the skills work.

It’s funny you say people don’t know what they’re talking about when you are completely and absolutely 100% idiotically wrong.

So a thief like myself who rarely stealths and never uses back stab will have to listen to the crying until the entire class is nerfed to nothing? Even if I relied on stealth for my entire sequence, I wouldn’t care much about the concerns of other classes until their particle effects are put on a scale.

Rengaru.4730:

You can’t capture or hold a point while in stealth…

What you said would be right if it wasn’t completely wrong. You should refer to some words of wisdom from the quote below:

Rengaru.4730:

See, thats the problem. People are complaining about Thieves without having any idea how the skills work.

Wait… that was you?

kash.9213:

So a thief like myself who rarely stealths and never uses back stab will have to listen to the crying until the entire class is nerfed to nothing? Even if I relied on stealth for my entire sequence, I wouldn’t care much about the concerns of other classes until their particle effects are put on a scale.

Do you use daggerstorm spec?

Junkpile.7439:

kash.9213:

So a thief like myself who rarely stealths and never uses back stab will have to listen to the crying until the entire class is nerfed to nothing? Even if I relied on stealth for my entire sequence, I wouldn’t care much about the concerns of other classes until their particle effects are put on a scale.

Do you use daggerstorm spec?

Thiefs Guild to help tackle artillery and hopefully pop some fields and whatever else for my team while I’m locking people down.

This is total bullkitten… no single player of ANY profession should be able to hold 20 people from capping a point.

The only thing the thief was using was pretty much CnD every hit. The only reason the zerg couldn’t cap was because every time he comes out of stealth the ticker stops and who knows, Npcs do respawn if you’re taking too long and it looked like to me that the thief’s server mates were on the ledge/edge.

He had up in the 23k range of health so an 80 with nothing but toughness and vitality, he wasn’t doing a great deal of damage himself. He indeed was picking off low health opponents, or obvious low armor/ lower level characters. You can kind of tell with armor types, most of them looked to be in the 10-40 range. I could be wrong there though as armor can be transmuted/crafted.

As others have already stated, the illusion of a perma steathed thief is either a build to chain stealth with low damage or a burst you down build taking advantage of culling.
Not really the thiefs fault, but hell..if it makes anyone feel better, because of culling I’ve been instagibbed by many classes without ever seeing exactly what hit me till I read the combat log or sat there waiting and suddenly characters pop into my screen.

Also, only ever saw this stuff in WvW.

Edit This isn’t glitching.

shortcake.8659:

It’s funny you say people don’t know what they’re talking about when you are completely and absolutely 100% idiotically wrong.

Nokaru.7831:

What you said would be right if it wasn’t completely wrong. You should refer to some words of wisdom from the quote below:

Sigh…
Next time check your facts please.
Capturing
Not capuring

And yes, I follow my “words of wisdom” thanks.

Rengaru.4730:

shortcake.8659:

It’s funny you say people don’t know what they’re talking about when you are completely and absolutely 100% idiotically wrong.

Nokaru.7831:

What you said would be right if it wasn’t completely wrong. You should refer to some words of wisdom from the quote below:

Sigh…
Next time check your facts please.
Capturing
Not capuring

And yes, I follow my “words of wisdom” thanks.

Actually, you’re both right. In sPvP, which is what your picture shows, you cannot cap a point while stealthed. Thus you are correct. In WvW, you can cap a point or stop an enemy capture while stealthed. Thus he is correct. There are different rules for different game modes.

Enenion.8127:

Actually, you’re both right. In sPvP, which is what your picture shows, you cannot cap a point while stealthed. Thus you are correct. In WvW, you can cap a point or stop an enemy capture while stealthed. Thus he is correct. There are different rules for different game modes.

Im pretty sure it didn’t work around a month ago, but I havn’t tried it out since then.
If it indeed works it’s probably a bug and you should report offending players for exploiting.

Enenion.8127:

Rengaru.4730:

shortcake.8659:

It’s funny you say people don’t know what they’re talking about when you are completely and absolutely 100% idiotically wrong.

Nokaru.7831:

What you said would be right if it wasn’t completely wrong. You should refer to some words of wisdom from the quote below:

Sigh…
Next time check your facts please.
Capturing
Not capuring

And yes, I follow my “words of wisdom” thanks.

Actually, you’re both right. In sPvP, which is what your picture shows, you cannot cap a point while stealthed. Thus you are correct. In WvW, you can cap a point or stop an enemy capture while stealthed. Thus he is correct. There are different rules for different game modes.

We aren’t “both right”. This is the WvW forum, talking about an issue in WvW, and it’s painfully obvious to anyone who even bothered to watch the video, or played WvW for a reasonable amount of time knows that Stealth and Invisible players count towards capture points in WvW.

It’s bugged. It isn’t supposed to since it doesn’t in sPvP.

Check your facts next time please… (dot, dot, dot).

And for the record, this has worked this way since the Beta Weekend Events.

For reference, here’s the video which was the second post of the thread:

The video!

The capture point remains green, even when there is no one else inside it except for the Thief, who is remaining there in Stealth. For those that can’t figure it out, this thief is on the Green team (you can tell by the score window being shaded in green).

Check your facts please, especially when they are explained multiple times and referenced in several places in the same thread!

You try and report someone who is 100% stealthed :p

Game needs actual stealth counters, simple as that. Retool a few skills into revealing stealthed foes and or disabling stealth momentarily.

it constantly impresses me at how Anet let so much bad seep through to release with Thieves. If they have it fixed so you cant stealth cap in pvp how hard would it have been to set that up in WvW? And to let them have all their stealth moves but with no CD between stealth is just mind boggling. The rendering issue i can see being an unexpected problem just because they werent expecting so many sales, but there’s a lot that shouldnt have gotten in or should have been thought out more.

I saw this tonight with 4 of us on screen and one enemy thief. He exploited this bug and it was more than just rendering issues. It’s ok, the hacking players will get the snot nerfed out of the class as we pile complaint after complaint against this class.

I just keep reporting them. anet will get tired of us complaining and nerf them into the ground. congratulations, cheaters!

Columba.9730:

I saw this tonight with 4 of us on screen and one enemy thief. He exploited this bug and it was more than just rendering issues. It’s ok, the hacking players will get the snot nerfed out of the class as we pile complaint after complaint against this class.

I just keep reporting them. anet will get tired of us complaining and nerf them into the ground. congratulations, cheaters!

Hacking? Lol you’re funny. Maybe stop being bad first before going back to WvW. Anet isn’t going to nerf thief to cater to the bads so you can keep dreaming.

First, I am a thief… and only a thief so I hope anyone who takes the time to read this will at least consider that I have a basic understanding of the class.

Folks there is a REAL problem here. Its not just culling and builds based around stealth abuse. Its these things combined with a speed hack. For example, I can run with thieves guild, and be tab targetting with my finger on the button for steal. The person I had to deal with tonight would only be targetable for a split second. When I do get him, the pets chase him… because we know that pets track them down even with stealth However, when combined with a speed hack the pets kind of freak out and come back.

Tonight vs Blackgate at Speldans a single person was able to lock down a camp for 10 minutes before, and another 10 minutes after the reboot. The only way people could get him is a large zerg spamming aoes… so when he ran back in it is finally enough to bring him down. Please stop belittling people saying they don’t understand how a thief works… it is a real problem.

We seem to forget that someone worked on this game for years to create this exact situation. Someone designed this. It was a design decision to create one profession this totally overpowered, and all the other terrible elements of WvW.

Therefore, the only logical reason this crap continues to exist is that Arenanet are hell bent on killing WvW just to save themselves from admitting someone got it all badly, badly wrong.

What a joke.

Anyone know if Planetside 2 has stealth?

Grumpdogg.6910:

We seem to forget that someone worked on this game for years to create this exact situation. Someone designed this. It was a design decision to create one profession this totally overpowered, and all the other terrible elements of WvW.

Indeed.

And surely there’s a developer or developers who will defend this for as long as they’re working at A.net.

Been through it all before, and it never really is resolved. Awesome PvE mechanic, terrible PvP mechanic.

If I was running Anet I would first nerf cloak and dagger by putting a cd on it or nerfing the attack point regen IMMEDIATELY.

Next I would throw all of my resources into fixing the server side rendering issues as if my job depended on it.

As it stands now the thief issue has pretty much killed RvR for us. It’s bordering on exploiting.

Does planetside 2 have stealth? It’s my dream to some day have a game without stealth.

I remember when WAR was in development and they told us “WAR will have no stealth” It seems nobody can just do what 90% of us want. Get rid of abusive stealth mechanics.

At least in WAR stealth was limited to 30 seconds and witchhunters and witchelves only had one ability to re-stealth with.

Basically shows this game is flawed at a basic level. I wonder if they will fix the hundreds of glaring flaws like this with the game before there is anyone left to play it…

Hyperhypo.1249:

Rengaru.4730:

You can’t capture or hold a point while in stealth…

See, thats the problem. People are complaining about Thieves without having any idea how the skills work.

you need to read before you respond, you look like an Obama

Should he instead say “I have binders full of woman”?

Funny you say Obama doesn’t read. I’d bet he’s read about 2,000 books more than you by the time he was 30. Just saying.

Tyaen.5148:

You’re laziness is also ignorance. If you read this or any number of other threads you’d understand that doesn’t work.

Either that or you just assume everyone experiencing this issue are complete moron’s who hadn’t thought of these most basic steps already.

Well, that was rude.

It works for me. I’m not saying dots are visible all the time, but in this 3 seconds window when thief forced to come out from stealth (but not rendering) I can see them.
It’s the same thing as SM large battles, at least in my situation – I can’t see a thing, but I still can target with tab and see damage numbers.

As for tracking thieves all the time, for necro with his marks it’s possible (traits: Greater Marks + Staff Mastery).

As a mesmer if your “in combat” and have the deceptive evasion trait you can create clones without having a target selected. These clones attack the nearest thing to them including thieves in their 2-3 second window of not being rendered, which gives you an idea of their position and where to aoe. Its doesn’t really help in big fights but 1v1 or like in the video it makes it easy to find them…

[quote=474548;Halo.8976:]

Its WvW culling if you cant see the thief… That is it, plain and simple. It doesnt happen in sPvP.

Secondly this video needs some defense. We all know theres many bads in the forum crying nerf when it really isnt necessary. (Apart from the 150% damage signet, that should be reduced to 110% or 120%)

1. Theres alot of things the Zerg could have done to end the thiefs terror. Fear traps, and ranger traps and thief “knockdown for 3sec” traps for instance. None were seen in this video. It was zerg mentality here that couldnt cope with a bit of smart play by the thief.

If you want to catch an invisible thief, you trap him. Anything that cripples him will also stop him hitting with Cloak and Tagger in time when the 4secs of stealth expires

2. To get constant Stealth with Cloak and Dagger or “CnD” as its known (As its cost was greatly increased already since bw3) it will cost you 2 major traits in the stealthline to regen this cost of initive and it can only do this once every 3 secs. And in order to make it hit alot of the time it will cost you 1 major trait in acrobatics for stealth movement speed. Someone speccing for perma stealth will have much less damage than most thiefs people complain about which currently perform the insta gib (i.e. using the 150% damage signet). At the end of the build youve spent 30 points into stealth, without gaining any damage bonuses. If you spent 30 points in stealth you would expect to get….. welll…… stealth!!!!!!! The thief will also need to use one utility slot to have 25% movment speed otherwise chasing people with Cloak and Dagger is near impossible. Thats a very particular build for a very particular stealth play style

3. The WvW point cap system needs to ignore stealth like sPvP – Thats an easy one. The code is already there and just needs to be applied. I would expect we will see this soon

4. Most MMO’s have perma stealth. You turn it on and move around. Its easy. In GW2 there is actually a skill in conjunction with a 30 trait point build. Stealth lasts 4 secs. Youll have to hit targets with your CnD as shown in the video. Quite often when using this build people will blind the area they are standing in causing the cloak and dagger to miss….. The initiative gets spent and doesnt regen as the attack missed. The thief is then at a massive disadvantage where his build was countered and he will then run away. Hitting with Cloak and Dagger is easier in a zerg than it is in a small fight. There are so many just standing still, its almost impossible for it not to land just as it is impossible for an eles AoE not to hit something at range.

Another way to make it miss is count to 4 secs then perform a dodge (4 secs from the time you last saw the little swirly black mist a thief makes when doing stealth) Stealth only lasts 4 secs and he will need to re-stealth every 4 secs by hitting you with Cloak and Dagger.

TIP…. Count to 4sec, then click dodge. (Cloak and Dagger will miss and you will find your thief). 2 Things will happen next. He will burn a utility to stealth again, or you can CC,Stun,Daze him. One thing will be going through his mind. “I missed cloak and dagger, its time to run”

5. When a thief is in stealth, he must not attack for 3-4 secs otherwise they get the revealed debuff which means they can not go back in to stealth for 3 secs. So if your going perma stealth: thats 0 DPS!!! ZERO!!! for 4 secs for every 5 secs.

6. Now that some facts have been posted you may continue to pursue the nerfing of the thief. Just take into consideration the build which has been posted. No 10k crits were evident in the video which proves the stealth build has a very large sacrafice for being stealthy. The only thing that got abused was the capping system. The culling is another issue. However if cloak and dagger is timed right a culling fix will not stop a thief going back to invisible in 0.5 secs. If timed right it can even be done in sPvP

7. If someone spends 30 points in Stealth to be stealthy, with a massive sacrifice of burst damage, they should be…… stealthy. Cloak and Dagger provides this and also has a 1sec cast time. To get it to hit well it requires 1 major trait in stealth speed and one utility slot in movement speed. This build does 0 DPS (YES ZERO) for 4 secs; every 5 secs

8. Alot of people in this thread said the thief went toe to toe against a zerg. He was basicaly just hiding in a zerg doing no damage apart from slaying the green arrows with his maxed out lvl80 gear (Auto attacks with lvl80 exotics will slay people wearing low level gear who are also low level, it doesnt matter what class you are or what spec you have, Necro, Guardian, Engineer, whatever)

I stopped playing my thief, it was too easy…

Fix the culling! Please! I love my thief but it’s not even a challenge because of the culling.

1. way to finish off a CnD thief is to get everyone in a tight circle, stand at the edge of the capping point, and spam AoE/Auto attack around them. If there are NPC’s nearby (ogres, quaggans) to help cap, stand near them. NPC’s instantly attack the thief when he gets out of stealth regardless of culling.

Why isn’t this at the top of the forum? Keep it up there. This is the top 1 or 2 problems with RvR atm.

This should be a top priority above all else in the game. The thieves are literally ruining RvR.

If this game has any shot at large success you better be throwing money at this problem. My guild is already starting to disintegrate because of these thieves and the fact that we can be 1v4’d.

I’d be working on this problem as if my job depended on it. Which it does.

It’s absolutely silly we have to do all these elaborate work-arounds for an obvious and close to game-breaking problem.

What is being described is clearly not what is happening. I have a ridiculous machine and I have never had any of the culling problems many people have been mentioning for weeks in WvWvW. I see half way across the map and see the zergs coming before most other people. I also never have people become invisible due to culling in big fights. An invisible zerg landing on top of me is usually a Messmer portal I didn’t notice until too late or ‘cause I had my camera stuck too close to me. I’ve even heard people complain in WvWvW it was an invisible zerg that hit them when I saw the portal after. So many people are crying wolf on this one.

However in Lion’s Arch that’s another matter for some reason, where either NPC’s or players will load before the other, but that’s a separate issue.

If it was simply a case of the thieves not drawing for the 3 seconds that they come out of stealth in WvWvW, then why can you not tab target them?

You can still tab target when a game does not display a character on the screen otherwise.

Seems to me that either there is a way to perma stealth even through damage, or some exploit is being used. I’ve used ‘Barrage’ as a Ranger on Thieves many times and seen damage numbers above invisible players without them coming out of stealth.

Also when you pop-off your stun when you are downed some thieves (but not all) stay stealthed and still spike you. So if they all are not doing this, it would indicate some or many know how to exploit this and some do not.

Those are my observations, make of them what you will.

Thieves are fine, hitting on 3k+ armor for 8k repeatedly is ok (won’t even go to what they do to eles that don’t run tanky builds), coz hey, you can counter them (dunno how but hey, it’d doable right, it’s high skill cap hitting invisible enemies). And the balance, it’s made for sPvP blahblah.

Initiative, the stupidest thing ever made, promotes spamming of skills and kitten level of gameplay aka spam 1 skill that deals crazy amount of damage till target dead, and if perchance it fails, you can use one of many GTFO skills. As is, if a good player is playing a thief, good luck in killing him (and 1v1 killing him sadly means you need to have uber damage also, if you’re tanky, he can just trololo away from you if his burst fails for some reason).

Why don’t you just rupt his skills, or keep the thief off balance, they require very melee targeted damage to actually do alot of damage, many classes have counters for those sort of tactics. e.g. Guardians Binding Blade needs no target to use and a great way to tag veiled toons, mesmers have temporal curtain/Into the void, rangers with the right trap trait can really screw things up with ground targetting traps like chill etc. It’s not overly difficult, yeah there is a bit of a bug atm with rendering issues it will get sorted.

As for the thief in the combat the other day who entered downed state then logged after veiling, bring back dishonor points please.

Thief stealth has to be fixed. Being faster than everyone else + shadowstep + heartseeker + stealth basically means you dont catch a thief unless he wants a fight and with the rendering bugs + 99% stealth a single thief can basically keep a camp impossible to cap. Fix the thief, please. Pretty please.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that video. Every single player in that video was so bad and unaware of their surroundings, they’re pretty much a prime example of the 99%.

99% of players are bad, but some of them think they’re good, and they all whine about balance. And this is why we can’t have nice things.

If even a single player in my 5 man group had been there, that thief would have died within the first minute, or be forced to run away and not come back. God I’m just facepalming so hard right now.

Fix personal skill problems first.

Webley.1295:

snip

If they fix Stealth users denying and contributing towards capture, there are no complaints. If you are defending it, you’re defending an obvious bug. Will ANet fix it? They have a long list of things to fix, maybe one day they’ll get around to it.

Rengaru.4730:

You can’t capture or hold a point while in stealth…

See, thats the problem. People are complaining about Thieves without having any idea how the skills work.

In wvw you can.

Rengaru.4730:

Im pretty sure it didn’t work around a month ago, but I havn’t tried it out since then.
If it indeed works it’s probably a bug and you should report offending players for exploiting.

You seem pretty sure about something that you’re wrong about.

And nope, it didn’t magically change a month ago and it’s not a bug. Telling people to “report” players for something that you have wrong is just ridiculous.

Nokaru.7831:

Webley.1295:

snip

If they fix Stealth users denying and contributing towards capture, there are no complaints. If you are defending it, you’re defending an obvious bug. Will ANet fix it? They have a long list of things to fix, maybe one day they’ll get around to it.

My post was not defending the capture of the point from a stealthed thief. It was saying that there is code in sPvP stopping stealthed players from capping and we should expect to see that code in WvW soon as its already written

MoonSlasher.9684:

Stealths aren’t OP, it’s just that you guys don’t know how to handle it. I’m a thief with shortbow, I went invi for 3 seconds and get “arrows to the knee” by a ranger and other stuff for that entire 3 seconds while I was in stealth, and that is normal for me. Is that OP? NO.

Here are some step to handle stealths:

First step is very important :

Step 1: “Pay a little attention”
Step 2: Auto attack/Spam AoE

is that too hard?

The real problem right now is the render, don’t blame it on the theives.

Some other ways to deal with stealth for a more skilled player which are far more effective

Traps, Marks, Blocks, Barriers, Blindness, cripple and dodging every 4 secs are a great way of breaking the Cloak and Dagger effect which allows the thief to go back into stealth from chaining it

Dont forget thiefs must spec for this kind of stealth build loosing mass damage

Also this spec does 0 DPS for 4 secs every 5 seconds. It works out to be around 2-5k DPS (depending how squishy) every 5 secs which is small

The stealth lasts 4 secs, the thief will then need to hit with cloak and dagger to get it back up. If you perform a dodge just at the end of those 4 secs the thief will miss it and loose his initiative. He will likely burn another utility to correct this mistake or make a run for it. Keeping cripple on him is also another great way to stop him reaching his foes with cloak and dagger. Every class has a cripple

Even with the fix of culling, a well timed Cloak and dagger will make the thief visible for 1sec or 0.5secs if its extremely well timed. So you must make sure he can not hit you at the end of those 4secs which will stop him chaining it

A simple Chill trap from a ranger will shut this sequence down. Immobilise from a guard also. A fear mark from a Necro. And obviously there are many more. Or just a dodge…….