Guild Wars 2

Are we still having this discussion? Really? D/P thieves (the only one who can effectively perma – stealth) is just annoying to fight. They’re either really bad and die, get too greedy and die or just run off. No big deal. For those of you complaining about Shadow Refugee – really? For a Necromancer that’s a free kill, same goes for my caltrops condition thief – see SR; drop caltrops and Death Blossom all over the field = downed thief.

Anet just gave thieves a big slap in the face… So I don’t think they’ll be that normal to meet on the field again.

I was running around with my thief this morning… It was definitely a pat on the back, not a slap in the face. Base initiative regen is significantly higher which frees up an extra trait while other less used traits were adjusted or improved. Vigor uptime nerf was significant but overall, stronger than before.

On-topic: I’m still wondering how well d/p thief can manage initiative with the nerf for initiative boosters and mechanics change for initiative-on-stealth. I don’t play that build and the earlier posts don’t seem very reliable… I guess I’ll have to find out for myself.

Perma stealth is still easily doable, lol. It didn’t really get nerfed, despite how annoying it is. I tried to spec for it last night, and I found it was pretty easy to do. Back to the fun!

For all the theives that claim you are predictable once you stealth and l2play, that would suggest that you die a bunch when you stealth right? No? Not you, just a bad thief right?

The only stealth I run is dagger 5, no utilities, melee range. I have never stealthed at 50% or higher health and died from people who spam 1 into thin air. If you have, you were rolled by a zerg or you are a terrible, terrible thief. I would consider myself an average thief as well. Nothing special. So just stop.

Yes you can still perma stealth. It takes a little bit more effort, but not much more.

it isnt gone, it can be specced….. so much for that….

Haltair.3062:

elikal.7356:

This a 1000 times.

I am SICK AND TIRED over this! The overpowered perma-stealth built is a big issue in WVW for over a YEAR now! And ANet did NOTHING to remedy it for all the time! Yeah now the patch day happend, and guess what … Perma Stealth is STILL there.

Will you say the same in all the threads and create new ones with the same topic one and again and again?
There are several methods to counter stealth, learn to use them; stealth traps, ranger´s pet skill and so on.
To continue your crusade with false arguments will not take you anywhere.

Best,

Haltair, one of the twelve shadows

It hasn’t taken you anywhere but trouble and useless discussions/drama for doing so with a whole guild. So please explain how this person can’t be mad at such lame people like you?

Sanduskel.1850:

The real problem is that simply to be different, this game thought it was wise to allow a class with very high dps, the ability to pop into stealth while in combat. Never done in other games and predictably a problem here. I have specced out of the perma stealth build because of the cheese factor, but it’s still very easy to kill enemies on my thief. As a thief, I agree with you, and I have recommended changes, but my fellow thieves hate me for it. I recommend that you continue to respectfully submit feedback to anet.

You know, this is probably the only post you have made in the entirety of the GW2 forum section that has made sense. I am a main thief and I agree that perma-stealth had to go. It was way overpowered and did not make it fun to play thief. Now, that said, the reason other thieves hate you is because you recommend changes that either help only you or help only a very small group of players, you insult others when they do not agree with your own opinions rather than talking to them about it and explaining the reasoning (or lack thereof) behind your opinions, and you troll forum posts that are only trying to help everyone (including Anet) make the thief class into what thieves are supposed to be.

The dictionary definition of a thief is, “One who steals, especially by stealth”, so it would only make sense to let thieves be a very stealthy class. I do not see the reasoning behind your statements in other posts that thieves should be otherwise and neither does most of the rest of the thief community.

I hope this sheds some light on why most other thieves see you as nothing more than a troll who tries to stop Anet from allowing the thief class to be what it is supposed to be.

Here is my thing. Warrior and Ranger can spec for high mobility even out pacing a thief over distance (though most rangers play pew pew/GS and not S/D or S/W as off sets). Ele drops FGS and no class can catch them (rtl still nerfed into the ground). Mesmer PU has quite a bit a stealth (much like thief) and high in combat mobility. Engineer specing bomb kit and rocket boots has enough mobility, cc, and stealth to escape anything save a full zerg. Guardian (stupidly slow without travelers or speed runes) can spec meditations and if you do know how to use you ports and target you can run for some time (can’t chase though). Necro is the only class really lacking in mobility (Anet refused to make some changes even to power dagger builds and that really is garbage).

If you nerf thief more than it has been nerfed then thief would be inline for a class rework and major buffs. Thief is good for scouting but in zergs we all know it really isn’t good at all. Lets be honest here thieves have been relegated to scouting. If Anet is willing to give us 1,200 range a hell of a lot of aoe and better stats I would be all for more nerfs to stealth. As it is I could jump on warrior and be more effective than my thief in WvW.

It really isn’t that complex each class has it trade offs. If we put the joking aside beside WvW scouting wtf is thief really good at (better than other classes) in PvE, WvW, and Spvp?

thief is a design flaw from start.
in other mmo stealth has downsides (reduced movement speed, vulnerability to damage) in gw 2 stealth gives tremendous advantage (heal, movement speed, regeneration, remove condition, power , and many more)
in other mmo the use of stealth are really limited and the delay between skill use is long not to mention to use stealth in combat is considered an ultimate skill making the class is very hard to play and require tremendous amount of skill. in gw 2 you have too many stealth skill, no delay and you can use stealth skill in combat anytime you want making this class for kittens
in other mmo all jobs were given a skill to detect stealthed player. in gw2 you only have 2 options 1. stealth traps (clunky, not effective, waste of resources) 2. arrow cart skill 4 (hard to earned and useless since you rarely use this to catch thief)

i am just making a comparison between stealth class from common mmo and gw2
and despite of the staggering advantage thief is still one of the biggest dps class in game.

the point is i dont mind thief is perma stealth 90% of the time if their backstab and heartseeker only deal 2k damage (not 8k, not 12k, not 22k like someone suggested here)

Assassin X.8573:

Daoc stealth system was best. Perma stealth but once you put yourself into combat or you took damage from an aoe, you were removed from stealth and I believe there was a 45 second timer at minimum before you could re-stealth. So the stealth system would be better if it modelled daoc system. Perma and only reenter once you are out of combat ei when you can swap skills.

You could also be detected. WoW also had a similar system.

Stillmoon.6894:

thief is a design flaw from start.
in other mmo stealth has downsides (reduced movement speed, vulnerability to damage) in gw 2 stealth gives tremendous advantage (heal, movement speed, regeneration, remove condition, power , and many more)

So you know without 30 points in SA and traits (from more thna 1 line) it literally does not heal, does reduce movement speed, remove conditions, or add power. Hide in Shadows does do some of that however it is a healing skill.

Stillmoon.6894:

in other mmo the use of stealth are really limited and the delay between skill use is long not to mention to use stealth in combat is considered an ultimate skill making the class is very hard to play and require tremendous amount of skill. in gw 2 you have too many stealth skill, no delay and you can use stealth skill in combat anytime you want making this class for kittens

Those classes generally had many evasive skills and stun lock builds. Many of those classes were additionally balanced around a RPS system when heavy beats leather, leather beats cloth, and cloth beats heavy. Thief as it is right now gains defense in 2 ways evasion and stealth. Remove one and you force the other as the passive healing, blocks, and cc afforded other classes thief simply does not have. If you want the change ask Anet for a class rework for thief from the ground up.

Stillmoon.6894:

in other mmo all jobs were given a skill to detect stealthed player. in gw2 you only have 2 options 1. stealth traps (clunky, not effective, waste of resources) 2. arrow cart skill 4 (hard to earned and useless since you rarely use this to catch thief)

True and anti stealth has been added in a bad way. I think it would be fair to add more but too much and the class becomes ineffective.

Stillmoon.6894:

i am just making a comparison between stealth class from common mmo and gw2
and despite of the staggering advantage thief is still one of the biggest dps class in game.

the point is i dont mind thief is perma stealth 90% of the time if their backstab and heartseeker only deal 2k damage (not 8k, not 12k, not 22k like someone suggested here)

As has been said many times and will likely be said many times more. Thieves that hit that hard are glass. They aren’t speced to survive long and generally do not go the full 30 into SA as they cant pull off those numbers without massive stacks of bloodlust and other food buffs. 8k possible vs glass or an uplevled. 12 and 22k are not speced in SA or have defensive utilities (ie they use signets).

Brush up on the class before coming to major assumptions. Backstabbing someone in the front (ie you miss their back) only hits about 2k with your general 30 point SA build.

Its easy to defeat. Most thieves will roam because its what they are best at. If you like roaming and stealth is that big of a problem, look into doing one or two things. 1.) Make a condition build with plenty of power. 2.) Get a weapon like a shield that allows you to block attacks.

Stealth is to allow a thief to heal and get a perfect back-stab on you. If you count a few seconds and either dodge or start blocking with a weapon, they can be spiked down if you act quickly. Spam the area when the go into stealth, if they don’t have really low HP, they are just moving around to get a good hit on you. There were so many times where I’ve seen SR popup and I spam the area and they appear single downed next to me.

Stealth=/=invulnerable

Another great thing to do is if you find yourself only dying to thieves, make one. Find a cookie cutter build online and learn how they work (do it in PvP where you’re leveled and get free gear). When I did this because Mesmers were giving me a problem and I quickly found out how to defeat the average ones.

Frigid.6027:

I still find it funny people complain about permastealth. Stand in that RED circle and watch how much fun they have heartseeking through it. Drop aoes around you and see how long that squishy thief hangs around you.

How come its okay for mesmers to have just as much stealth and zerk clones doing who knows how much damage to you while they are still stealthed? Why can necros chain fear you and condi bomb you to death before you can do anything? Why can warriors (list too long)? etc.

tl;dr
-all classes have op builds, 95% of people play them
-l2p or go join the blob and spam 1

Look at the CDs on all fear skills. Necro also have no direct route to vigor and are highly immobile. Necros have long CDs to balance them. Also, you have stun breakers and stability.

TheGuy.3568:

Stillmoon.6894:

thief is a design flaw from start.
in other mmo stealth has downsides (reduced movement speed, vulnerability to damage) in gw 2 stealth gives tremendous advantage (heal, movement speed, regeneration, remove condition, power , and many more)

So you know without 30 points in SA and traits (from more thna 1 line) it literally does not heal, does reduce movement speed, remove conditions, or add power. Hide in Shadows does do some of that however it is a healing skill.

Stillmoon.6894:

in other mmo the use of stealth are really limited and the delay between skill use is long not to mention to use stealth in combat is considered an ultimate skill making the class is very hard to play and require tremendous amount of skill. in gw 2 you have too many stealth skill, no delay and you can use stealth skill in combat anytime you want making this class for kittens

Those classes generally had many evasive skills and stun lock builds. Many of those classes were additionally balanced around a RPS system when heavy beats leather, leather beats cloth, and cloth beats heavy. Thief as it is right now gains defense in 2 ways evasion and stealth. Remove one and you force the other as the passive healing, blocks, and cc afforded other classes thief simply does not have. If you want the change ask Anet for a class rework for thief from the ground up.

Stillmoon.6894:

in other mmo all jobs were given a skill to detect stealthed player. in gw2 you only have 2 options 1. stealth traps (clunky, not effective, waste of resources) 2. arrow cart skill 4 (hard to earned and useless since you rarely use this to catch thief)

True and anti stealth has been added in a bad way. I think it would be fair to add more but too much and the class becomes ineffective.

Stillmoon.6894:

i am just making a comparison between stealth class from common mmo and gw2
and despite of the staggering advantage thief is still one of the biggest dps class in game.

the point is i dont mind thief is perma stealth 90% of the time if their backstab and heartseeker only deal 2k damage (not 8k, not 12k, not 22k like someone suggested here)

As has been said many times and will likely be said many times more. Thieves that hit that hard are glass. They aren’t speced to survive long and generally do not go the full 30 into SA as they cant pull off those numbers without massive stacks of bloodlust and other food buffs. 8k possible vs glass or an uplevled. 12 and 22k are not speced in SA or have defensive utilities (ie they use signets).

Brush up on the class before coming to major assumptions. Backstabbing someone in the front (ie you miss their back) only hits about 2k with your general 30 point SA build.

No…. my thief isn’t glass and routinely hits that hard. sorry, I respectfully disagree with you.

Sanduskel.1850:

TheGuy.3568:

Snip

No…. my thief isn’t glass and routinely hits that hard. sorry, I respectfully disagree with you.

Without seeing your build, gear, and stats it is impossible to judge if your build is glass or not. Share it if you would like to comment on this further and have actual discussion. None the less my response was accurate. You cant pull down those numbers without building outside of SA or running glass stats yourself.

Sanduskel.1850:

TheGuy.3568:

As has been said many times and will likely be said many times more. Thieves that hit that hard are glass. They aren’t speced to survive long and generally do not go the full 30 into SA as they cant pull off those numbers without massive stacks of bloodlust and other food buffs. 8k possible vs glass or an uplevled. 12 and 22k are not speced in SA or have defensive utilities (ie they use signets).

Brush up on the class before coming to major assumptions. Backstabbing someone in the front (ie you miss their back) only hits about 2k with your general 30 point SA build.

No…. my thief isn’t glass and routinely hits that hard. sorry, I respectfully disagree with you.

There’s pretty much no way you are hitting 12k+ Backstab reliably without being glass and through the use of your Assassin’s Signet. Unless you only target upscaled players. Sure, I’ve hit 20k Backstabs on upscaled players, when I’m full glass and after activating Assassin’s Signet.

If I fail, I got to bail though.

If I’m not glass, I hit more in the 4-6k range at best. That’s a good amount of damage of course, but still, my only beef with Thief, as it has been ever since I used to main it, is that Cloak and Dagger does insane damage for what it provides. Stealth. I don’t see why it should hit for upwards to 8k (when full glass) considering it’s a defensive skill.

But cloak and dagger is also fairly easy to predict and dodging it leaves the thief in an awkward situation (I’ve dodged them twice in a row in some situations leaving the thief with literally no initiative), so I think it’s a good risk vs reward unlike other ways of stealthing. The last thing thieves need is more nerfs to their damage, almost all of their damage is already almost exclusively single target and on top of that other classes (like warriors) can easily do equal amounts of damage (if not more) while not being restricted to single targets.

Like I’ve said in similar topics, d/d or d/p thieves rely on the ability to stealth as it’s their primary defensive tool, and without it they are helpless. It does allow them to have an easier time running away, but a thief who runs isn’t helping the ‘team’ in any way.

Junkpile.7439:

When i fight against thief i keep my eyes closed and push some buttons.

That explains a lot…

Now I finally understand who the pros play.

Stillmoon.6894:

thief is a design flaw from start.
in other mmo stealth has downsides …

In other MMO’s permastealth builds exist apparently. Don’t claim ‘other mmo’s’ without investigating them.

frans.8092:

In other MMO’s permastealth builds exist apparently. Don’t claim ‘other mmo’s’ without investigating them.

must be a crappy mmo you are playing, and if you read my post carefully you will see that i am talking about something else

I wouldnt say that DAOCs stealth system was better than in GW2. Sure stealthing incombat is extremely annoying and frustrating in GW2. In DAOC you cannot stealth while in combat but you can stealth forever while out of combat. As a result there were places in DAOC with plenty of stealthers out there waiting for victims. Stealthers popped out from nowhere, ruining battles all day long.

At least in GW2 you see them coming unless they SR around the corner.

borrok.9267:

Also, you have stun breakers and stability.

Notsureifsrs.

frans.8092:

Stillmoon.6894:

thief is a design flaw from start.
in other mmo stealth has downsides …

In other MMO’s permastealth builds exist apparently. Don’t claim ‘other mmo’s’ without investigating them.

In other MMOs, you can permastealth OUTSIDE OF COMBAT. The second you enter it, you can no longer stealth again. This is the core difference.

Tachii.3506:

borrok.9267:

Also, you have stun breakers and stability.

Notsureifsrs.

You didn’t know that thief has stability? Did you know that necro has stability?

If they are permanently stealth, how do you even know they are there?

Thieves are so far down on the list in dueling, skirmish and zerg play that a thief presence isn’t even a consideration any longer. Even when roaming condi-bunkers, shatter mesmers and stunlock warriors are far more dangerous in solo play.

Thieves are surely fast, have excellent single target DPS and are slippery but nearly all their scariness goes away with toughness, vitality and control. The ones that are truly dangerous come from the player who in most other classes would likely be just as tough of a fight if not more so.

Stillmoon.6894:

frans.8092:

In other MMO’s permastealth builds exist apparently. Don’t claim ‘other mmo’s’ without investigating them.

must be a crappy mmo you are playing, and if you read my post carefully you will see that i am talking about something else

80% of your post is about ‘… other mmo’s …’ and when your first ‘… other mmo’s …’ statement clearly shows that your knowledge of ’ … other mmo’s …’ is actually based on a small subset of ‘… other mmo’s …’ then the rest of you ‘… other mmo’s …’ post can safely be disregarded.

You’re comparing a small part – stealth – of the entire balance between classes, across mmo’s, disregarding other aspects of balance, as a previous poster shows in great detail.

Butch.4957:

Sanduskel.1850:

The real problem is that simply to be different, this game thought it was wise to allow a class with very high dps, the ability to pop into stealth while in combat. Never done in other games and predictably a problem here. I have specced out of the perma stealth build because of the cheese factor, but it’s still very easy to kill enemies on my thief. As a thief, I agree with you, and I have recommended changes, but my fellow thieves hate me for it. I recommend that you continue to respectfully submit feedback to anet.

You know, this is probably the only post you have made in the entirety of the GW2 forum section that has made sense. I am a main thief and I agree that perma-stealth had to go. It was way overpowered and did not make it fun to play thief. Now, that said, the reason other thieves hate you is because you recommend changes that either help only you or help only a very small group of players, you insult others when they do not agree with your own opinions rather than talking to them about it and explaining the reasoning (or lack thereof) behind your opinions, and you troll forum posts that are only trying to help everyone (including Anet) make the thief class into what thieves are supposed to be.

The dictionary definition of a thief is, “One who steals, especially by stealth”, so it would only make sense to let thieves be a very stealthy class. I do not see the reasoning behind your statements in other posts that thieves should be otherwise and neither does most of the rest of the thief community.

I hope this sheds some light on why most other thieves see you as nothing more than a troll who tries to stop Anet from allowing the thief class to be what it is supposed to be.

Thank you, but my audience isn’t other thieves. Most of the thief players who populate these forums attack anyone who doesn’t tow the party line: “thieves are underpowered, thieves die to anyone, perma stealth is perfectly fine…” So, I’ve give up on any rational discussion with them. My audience are others who question whether the message track pedaled by the so called pro thieves is accurate. It isn’t. Several of us thieves are honest about the strengths and weaknesses of our class and want the game to be fair and balanced. You ought to ask why perma stealth is STILL possible even after the patch, despite Anet’s description of the abuse that they were trying to prevent. Abuse was their term for perma stealth, not mine. Be respectful. I tried perma stealth last night on my thief. Not only is it possible, but it’s viable for killing enemies.

Leave thieves alone, they’re squishy enough as is :|
Maybe CC/stunlock/condition/shatter/wellomancer/spirit builds should be taken away as well.

Sanduskel.1850:

Thank you, but my audience isn’t other thieves. Most of the thief players who populate these forums attack anyone who doesn’t tow the party line: “thieves are underpowered, thieves die to anyone, perma stealth is perfectly fine…” So, I’ve give up on any rational discussion with them. My audience are others who question whether the message track pedaled by the so called pro thieves is accurate. It isn’t. Several of us thieves are honest about the strengths and weaknesses of our class and want the game to be fair and balanced. You ought to ask why perma stealth is STILL possible even after the patch, despite Anet’s description of the abuse that they were trying to prevent. Abuse was their term for perma stealth, not mine. Be respectful. I tried perma stealth last night on my thief. Not only is it possible, but it’s viable for killing enemies.
[/quote]

Thank you for responding to my post, it is my honest attempt to speak respectfully to you in hopes of having a decent conversation with you. First, I am going to address the party tow line as you call it.

1. Thieves are not underpowered in any way, they are simply not overpowered like some classes in the game. Ex. the warrior who has a very high base health pool, high base armor pool, high base damage, decent mobility even when not specced for it, and does not require as much skill to play as a thief. (I have played a warrior myself and found I did not require as much skill to stay alive as I did on my thief)

2. Thieves do not just die to anyone. We most often complain of dieing to to warriors, elementalists, mesmers, and necromancers. Even those can be prevented by playing the class well and speccing right (and no, I am not talking about going solely into survivability. I am working on a build right now that should provide decent damage while having a lot of staying power as well. Link: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYUQNAoYVlUmiPXeS6E+5Ey2jdqC5J/DglODcqlA-jACBYfCik3QEBBMRqIaslhFRjVZDT9iIq2erIa1SBEjwI-e )

3. This is where I agree with you, perma-stealth is not fine and having permanant stealth is game breaking. Being able to temporarily stealth however is not game breaking and should in my opinion be supported as a thief is by the game’s definition a stealthy class.
Quote from the guild wars 2 wiki: Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowsteps to surprise and to get close to their target.

Finally, let us address the devs not getting rid of perma-stealth. In their own patch notes they said that they were not going to get rid of it permanently, just make it so it is more difficult than spamming a single skill. They said it would require multiple skills together to achieve permanent stealth. Also, nowhere in their patch notes did they call perma-stealth abuse. I may have missed the post where they said this however so if you can point it out I will apologize and take back what I said about that.

A quote from the patch notes:
The change to Infusion of Shadow is meant to stop players from gaining initiative by applying stealth while already in stealth. This should keep thieves from being able to recharge all of their power while idling in a very long stealth. We felt that using a lot of different abilities to maintain stealth is okay, but reusing the same ability over and over for almost permanent stealth was just bad for the game, especially when gaining large amounts of initiative.

In conclusion, I want to thank you for replying to my post with such a well thought out answer. It shows that you take this very seriously and wish the best for the thief class even though most, myself included, feel you are going in the wrong direction with your argument. Have a great rest of your day!
Sincerely,
Butch

it is just amazing how a lot of people do not get that Sanduskel is the one of the biggest trolls in the forums . . . .

. . . and people just keep feeding him.

Just click on his message history . . . please do not feed the troll.

He will never tell you his build because he do not play thief as he pretends.

About the topic, you can chain stealth, but you can not keep perma-stealth as before.

This is a good change IMO . . . but S/X cast time . . . well.

It’s not gone but it is considerably weaker. You’d have to spec nearly every trait into stealth in order to achieve true perma stealth, and at that point you’d pretty much be useless, hitting like a wet noodle and dying like one. It really isn’t viable anymore. D/D is significantly improved, though. P/D is slightly better but nearly impossible to kill a DS ele with.

SoLeciTO.3490:

it is just amazing how a lot of people do not get that Sanduskel is the one of the biggest trolls in the forums . . . .

. . . and people just keep feeding him.

Just click on his message history . . . please do not feed the troll.

He will never tell you his build because he do not play thief as he pretends.

About the topic, you can chain stealth, but you can not keep perma-stealth as before.

This is a good change IMO . . . but S/X cast time . . . well.

I do not think you read some of my previous posts, I know he is a troll (or at least appears to act like one) but he is still a human being (as far as i know, don’t think he is some weird AI) and I know that most people respond better to polite inquiry and the request for a decent conversation than they do to vehemence and calling them a troll.

Also, please read my last post again. Nowhere in my post did I ask for his build or even proof of whether or not he was a thief. I was simply speaking from my own personal experience playing a thief myself.

I agree with you that for the most part, the change to the thief class has been a good change. It made me start playing a D/D thief again and I am finding love for the build all over again because of the change to initiative. I also agree with you on the S/x change for IR because my secondary thief (for when I get tired of my main) uses S/P as her primary weapon set. In a previous post, I begged Anet to not nerf IR and gave my reasoning why.
Let me see if I can find a link for you… Here we go. Link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/page/17#post3318354

Thank you, Butch. The abuse term was used in the November communication and further explanations from the developers in the thief forum. Even now it has its defenders who claim that no changes were warranted.

As far as the party line, you already responded to an example of what I referenced. Because he disagrees with me, he claims, without proof, that I don’t even have a thief character. I can’t reason with that stance.

Sanduskel.1850:

Thank you, Butch. The abuse term was used in the November communication and further explanations from the developers in the thief forum. Even now it has its defenders who claim that no changes were warranted.

As far as the party line, you already responded to an example of what I referenced. Because he disagrees with me, he claims, without proof, that I don’t even have a thief character. I can’t reason with that stance.

I have no idea where to look for where they said that. Could you possibly provide me a link to the specific post? One last thing to say until you post something else I can reply to. From what I have read of your posts on the forum, you often refuse to explain the reasoning behind your opinions or show the math behind it as well. One post in specific I remember was you telling someone that their math about total initiative was wrong and when they asked you to show your own math you first said that you did it all in your head and then later posted that they would not be able to understand it. I just want to point out that many people who ask to see your math often (but not always) know their stuff so it is best to assume that they can understand the math. I recommend that next time you actually show your math and people will take you more seriously.

Butch.4957:

SoLeciTO.3490:

it is just amazing how a lot of people do not get that Sanduskel is the one of the biggest trolls in the forums . . .

. . . and people just keep feeding him.

Just click on his message history . . . please do not feed the troll.

He will never tell you his build because he do not play thief as he pretends.

About the topic, you can chain stealth, but you can not keep perma-stealth as before.

This is a good change IMO . . . but S/X cast time . . . well.

I do not think you read some of my previous posts, I know he is a troll (or at least appears to act like one) but he is still a human being (as far as i know, don’t think he is some weird AI) and I know that most people respond better to polite inquiry and the request for a decent conversation than they do to vehemence and calling them a troll.

Also, please read my last post again. Nowhere in my post did I ask for his build or even proof of whether or not he was a thief. I was simply speaking from my own personal experience playing a thief myself.

I agree with you that for the most part, the change to the thief class has been a good change. It made me start playing a D/D thief again and I am finding love for the build all over again because of the change to initiative. I also agree with you on the S/x change for IR because my secondary thief (for when I get tired of my main) uses S/P as her primary weapon set. In a previous post, I begged Anet to not nerf IR and gave my reasoning why.
Let me see if I can find a link for you… Here we go. Link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/page/17#post3318354

I do really know why you think i was talking to you.

Read upper.

. . . About the polite thing . . . if this guy is polluting every single thread to make thief look bad with no base arguments, videos, builds, numbers . . . ANY!

How the heck he will earn any kind of respect that leads to be polite to him? (any thief in the forum can tell you)

The people that really wants a better community do not deserve to have people like this that expend more time trolling in the forum than actually playing the game.

Sorry for my bad english

Sanduskel.1850:

Thank you, Butch. The abuse term was used in the November communication and further explanations from the developers in the thief forum. Even now it has its defenders who claim that no changes were warranted.

As far as the party line, you already responded to an example of what I referenced. Because he disagrees with me, he claims, without proof, that I don’t even have a thief character. I can’t reason with that stance.

Ok its safe to say that most thiefs that participate in the forums agree that dp perma stealth was unhealthy for the game and had to be changed.
Though you keep on misquoting the devs saying they used the word abuse to describe steath when they did not.

“Infusion of Shadow
For basic use this trait’s functionality is not going to change. By many players it was being used to grant some initiative when going into stealth. However there were some abusive builds that were using this to maintain very long stealth uptime without having to use their utility skills. The problem with this is that it lets them recharge those skills while in stealth, which takes away the risk associated with using them. We are ok with thieves blowing their cooldowns to have longer stealth, and we are ok with theives bouncing in and out of stealth, but we were not ok with thieves maintaining long duration stealth through abusing a single trait.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/first

When they used the word abuse they where referring IOS trait not stealth. Yet you have misquoted the devs a couple times like this to try and back up your statements, and this not the first time you have been called out for doing so.

I do not know how others feel about this, but I personally follow the “Golden Rule” which basically states: Do unto others as you would have done unto you. I know sanduskel trolls many forums and this would normally warrant a swift shout out to get him kicked out. But I prefer to be civilized to others so they will be civilized to me. I know you don’t see this very often but look a the conversation I have had so far with sanduskel. This just goes to show you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Also, with the proper amount of effort, you can often turn someone who was a troll into a viable and useful part of the community! I like to equate trolls to bullies in my mind. For the most part, bullies are often seeking attention more than deliberately trying to be mean or unhelpful to other people and when you give them that attention in the correct manner they can often be changed for the better of all.

This is what I am trying to do with sanduskel. (note, I may be wrong and he just trolls for fun but I think he is just trying to get the right type of attention and I have absolutely no problem giving him that attention) I think that with the right coaxing, I can change peoples (and his/her own) viewpoints on sanduskel and help the community as a whole. Please allow me to continue this process uninterrupted because I like having as few trolls to deal with on forums as possible.

vincecontix.1264:

Sanduskel.1850:

Thank you, Butch. The abuse term was used in the November communication and further explanations from the developers in the thief forum. Even now it has its defenders who claim that no changes were warranted.

As far as the party line, you already responded to an example of what I referenced. Because he disagrees with me, he claims, without proof, that I don’t even have a thief character. I can’t reason with that stance.

Ok its safe to say that most thiefs that participate in the forums agree that dp perma stealth was unhealthy for the game and had to be changed.
Though you keep on misquoting the devs saying they used the word abuse to describe steath when they did not.

“Infusion of Shadow
For basic use this trait’s functionality is not going to change. By many players it was being used to grant some initiative when going into stealth. However there were some abusive builds that were using this to maintain very long stealth uptime without having to use their utility skills. The problem with this is that it lets them recharge those skills while in stealth, which takes away the risk associated with using them. We are ok with thieves blowing their cooldowns to have longer stealth, and we are ok with theives bouncing in and out of stealth, but we were not ok with thieves maintaining long duration stealth through abusing a single trait.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/first

When they used the word abuse they where referring IOS trait not stealth. Yet you have misquoted the devs a couple times like this to try and back up your statements, and this not the first time you have been called out for doing so.

Sorry Sanduskel, he has you there. That post is the most recent post the dev’s have made on the thieves changes and he quoted them word for word. If you would still like the argue the reasoning behind your changes I would be more than happy to listen to what you have to say and consider it carefully.

SoLeciTO.3490:

Butch.4957:

SoLeciTO.3490:

it is just amazing how a lot of people do not get that Sanduskel is the one of the biggest trolls in the forums . . .

. . . and people just keep feeding him.

Just click on his message history . . . please do not feed the troll.

He will never tell you his build because he do not play thief as he pretends.

About the topic, you can chain stealth, but you can not keep perma-stealth as before.

This is a good change IMO . . . but S/X cast time . . . well.

I do not think you read some of my previous posts, I know he is a troll (or at least appears to act like one) but he is still a human being (as far as i know, don’t think he is some weird AI) and I know that most people respond better to polite inquiry and the request for a decent conversation than they do to vehemence and calling them a troll.

Also, please read my last post again. Nowhere in my post did I ask for his build or even proof of whether or not he was a thief. I was simply speaking from my own personal experience playing a thief myself.

I agree with you that for the most part, the change to the thief class has been a good change. It made me start playing a D/D thief again and I am finding love for the build all over again because of the change to initiative. I also agree with you on the S/x change for IR because my secondary thief (for when I get tired of my main) uses S/P as her primary weapon set. In a previous post, I begged Anet to not nerf IR and gave my reasoning why.
Let me see if I can find a link for you… Here we go. Link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/page/17#post3318354

I do really know why you think i was talking to you.

Read upper.

. . . About the polite thing . . . if this guy is polluting every single thread to make thief look bad with no base arguments, videos, builds, numbers . . . ANY!

How the heck he will earn any kind of respect that leads to be polite to him? (any thief in the forum can tell you)

The people that really wants a better community do not deserve to have people like this that expend more time trolling in the forum than actually playing the game.

Sorry for my bad english

Well, moderators are supposed to check trolling/misleading/insults/etc messages but they can miss it sometimes, that’s why there is a report button. So instead of arguing with them just report sanduksel and batch.

Azraelle.1683:

SoLeciTO.3490:

Butch.4957:

SoLeciTO.3490:

it is just amazing how a lot of people do not get that Sanduskel is the one of the biggest trolls in the forums . . .

. . . and people just keep feeding him.

Just click on his message history . . . please do not feed the troll.

He will never tell you his build because he do not play thief as he pretends.

About the topic, you can chain stealth, but you can not keep perma-stealth as before.

This is a good change IMO . . . but S/X cast time . . . well.

I do not think you read some of my previous posts, I know he is a troll (or at least appears to act like one) but he is still a human being (as far as i know, don’t think he is some weird AI) and I know that most people respond better to polite inquiry and the request for a decent conversation than they do to vehemence and calling them a troll.

Also, please read my last post again. Nowhere in my post did I ask for his build or even proof of whether or not he was a thief. I was simply speaking from my own personal experience playing a thief myself.

I agree with you that for the most part, the change to the thief class has been a good change. It made me start playing a D/D thief again and I am finding love for the build all over again because of the change to initiative. I also agree with you on the S/x change for IR because my secondary thief (for when I get tired of my main) uses S/P as her primary weapon set. In a previous post, I begged Anet to not nerf IR and gave my reasoning why.
Let me see if I can find a link for you… Here we go. Link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/page/17#post3318354

I do really know why you think i was talking to you.

Read upper.

. . . About the polite thing . . . if this guy is polluting every single thread to make thief look bad with no base arguments, videos, builds, numbers . . . ANY!

How the heck he will earn any kind of respect that leads to be polite to him? (any thief in the forum can tell you)

The people that really wants a better community do not deserve to have people like this that expend more time trolling in the forum than actually playing the game.

Sorry for my bad english

Well, moderators are supposed to check trolling/misleading/insults/etc messages but they can miss it sometimes, that’s why there is a report button. So instead of arguing with them just report sanduksel and batch.

Two things.
1. Please read some of my previous posts. If you do, you will realize that I am not a troll and in fact I am trying to stop people from trolling. I just do it in a different way than the average Joe.

2. Please, if you are going to quote me and call me a troll, at least spell my name right.

I am not trying to argue with you and am in fact trying to do what I see as best for the thieves. I am more than open to suggestions if someone else has a different viewpoint than me and I will carefully consider what you have to say before I reply.

Best regards,
Butch

vincecontix.1264:

Sanduskel.1850:

Thank you, Butch. The abuse term was used in the November communication and further explanations from the developers in the thief forum. Even now it has its defenders who claim that no changes were warranted.

As far as the party line, you already responded to an example of what I referenced. Because he disagrees with me, he claims, without proof, that I don’t even have a thief character. I can’t reason with that stance.

Ok its safe to say that most thiefs that participate in the forums agree that dp perma stealth was unhealthy for the game and had to be changed.
Though you keep on misquoting the devs saying they used the word abuse to describe steath when they did not.

“Infusion of Shadow
For basic use this trait’s functionality is not going to change. By many players it was being used to grant some initiative when going into stealth. However there were some abusive builds that were using this to maintain very long stealth uptime without having to use their utility skills. The problem with this is that it lets them recharge those skills while in stealth, which takes away the risk associated with using them. We are ok with thieves blowing their cooldowns to have longer stealth, and we are ok with theives bouncing in and out of stealth, but we were not ok with thieves maintaining long duration stealth through abusing a single trait.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/first

When they used the word abuse they where referring IOS trait not stealth. Yet you have misquoted the devs a couple times like this to try and back up your statements, and this not the first time you have been called out for doing so.

I see this as semantics. They use abuse of a trait IN ORDER TO maintain long duration stealth. Long duration stealth is the outcome of abusing a trait is equivalent to abusing a game mechanic in order to achieve perma stealth. I really do not see them as different ideas.

As far as polluting threads – I’ve been respectful and objective here, using anet’s own language. So why the hate? It chalk it up to shooting the messenger. I am the victim of hate here.

Since the patch thieves are much more OP’d than before. GG Anet. Waiting on TESO.

Yeah, I actually found wvw even easier last night after the patch. I was surprised.

Ommu.1649:

Since the patch thieves are much more OP’d than before. GG Anet. Waiting on TESO.

Elaborate, please. I find that crutch builds such as p/d conditions are annoying, yes, but power builds aren’t any better than before the patch. Pistol whip got buffed, but at the cost of Infiltrator’s Return, effectively killing any s/p thief’s reliable condition removal.

Sanduskel.1850:

Yeah, I actually found wvw even easier last night after the patch. I was surprised.

Could you perhaps be so kind to upload some footage of your gameplay at some point? After reading many of your posts I realize now you must be a godly thief player, so I’m looking forward to seeing some insane thief plays completely destroying even the most skilled enemy players.

Butch.4957 you have good intentions . . . and also i think no one called you troll.

But think again about changing this guy . . . when he gets answers like yours he will just keep doing it more.

This forum could be a lot better if we just ignore this behavior.

This guys knows exactly what not to say so he never get banned.

Is a passive agressive user exploiting the forum code of conduct to make people angry or create fights.

Basically is a wolf in a sheep disguise.

Okaishi.8320:

Sanduskel.1850:

Yeah, I actually found wvw even easier last night after the patch. I was surprised.

Could you perhaps be so kind to upload some footage of your gameplay at some point? After reading many of your posts I realize now you must be a godly thief player, so I’m looking forward to seeing some insane thief plays completely destroying even the most skilled enemy players.

I never bragged, nor did I claim that I was a godly thief player. You misinterpret my intentions. My point is that I found it easier, not more difficult verus prior experiences, not that I destroyed anyone. I find the init baseline buff to be really helpful. Just my personal experience. I appreciate the patch. It helped several thief specs. Thank you for asking though.

tom.7468:

They nerf this and i will never play theif in wvw again.
Its actually quite useful for scouting.
Unfortunately thats pretty much the only thing they are good at.

And trolling people is also somthing they are good for.

/laugh → stealth → laugh →stealth → dance → stealth and so on :P

Is it me or there are a lot more thief roaming around since the last patch ?

Most of them where doing : Stealth —> HS —> Stealth —> HS —> Stealth —> Escape/Die

I roamed for a 2h killing bunch of people without die, then I just got bored and left :/,

Seriously guys, stop with this stealth kitten, it surprises me that a perma stealth thief can actualy kill something outside of EB.