Guild Wars 2

If it just me or are there a Per stealth rouge at every dang supply now a days. I play a thief I do not perm stealth because I play the thief as its intended I don’t exploit. I believe this needs to be fixed asap. IMO this is ruining wvw. Not one of any profession should be capable of holding off an entire 20 man group of players from capping a point they fought hard to get. This will end up being a big game breaker for wvw if they don’t find a way to fix this. I for one can’t stand you types of thieves your weak players dependent on a defect of design and your never gonna convince me otherwise. Stop exploiting the game. Play with skill not cheap dirty tricks.

I have not seen this.

The fair solution would simply be to put in a line of code that says more or less: if thief stealth is active, then thief cannot prevent from capping.

No need to nerf thief stealth directly…

I do believe this is an oversight, because a stealthed thief is not allowed to cap a point right now, but their stealth can prevent an enemy team from capping which is the issue.

Tammuz.7361:

The fair solution would simply be to put in a line of code that says more or less: if thief stealth is active, then thief cannot prevent from capping.

No need to nerf thief stealth directly…

I do believe this is an oversight, because a stealthed thief is not allowed to cap a point right now, but their stealth can prevent an enemy team from capping which is the issue.

The question is: if this is an oversight, why haven’t they fixed it already? Wouldn’t this have been fixed in the last patch if it were unintended?

Well, I’ve only seen it once. It has potential to be game breaking, but it isn’t ruining WvW at all atm, imo…

I don’t personally do this but I also don’t see how this is an exploit. It is using your professions ability to an advantage, no different from a mesmer portalling 30 people in a surprise attack.

It’s clear that they are exploiting the culling/rendering bug, but ANET isn’t doing anything to fix it for WVWVW.

Iohanna.4863:

The question is: if this is an oversight, why haven’t they fixed it already? Wouldn’t this have been fixed in the last patch if it were unintended?

It’s not intended, but it’s not a priority either.

Many players have the misconception that WvW is meant to be ‘End-game’, it is not. It is meant to be a side game much like keg brawl where you hop in, beat on a few keeps for an hour, and log off.

It’s nearly impossible to balance PvP and PvE before introducing WvW into the equation. WvW will always be third on the menu, ultimately it’s why you see constant PvE and PvP additions but only very minor fixes to WvW.

We are the minority and our issues (such as rendering) may not be addressed until months from now.

Cover Girl.2580:

Anytime a class from WOW invades GW2, it’s a huge issue. Next thing you know theres a bunch of Night Elfs running wild in Hoelbrak.

This.

Peetee.9406:

Iohanna.4863:

The question is: if this is an oversight, why haven’t they fixed it already? Wouldn’t this have been fixed in the last patch if it were unintended?

It’s not intended, but it’s not a priority either.

Many players have the misconception that WvW is meant to be ‘End-game’, it is not. It is meant to be a side game much like keg brawl where you hop in, beat on a few keeps for an hour, and log off.

It’s nearly impossible to balance PvP and PvE before introducing WvW into the equation. WvW will always be third on the menu, ultimately it’s why you see constant PvE and PvP additions but only very minor fixes to WvW.

We are the minority and our issues (such as rendering) may not be addressed until months from now.

With their stated goal of putting out new content every month we may never see s fix to this, and other outstanding issues.

Too bad the new content isn’t worth it either.

Columba.9730:

It’s clear that they are exploiting the culling/rendering bug, but ANET isn’t doing anything to fix it for WVWVW.

you ever seen a perma stealth build in action?
wouldn’t matter whether or not there is any culling as the thied will never turn visible anyway.
All you see is the occasional smoke screen on the ground showing where the thief has just been.

Simply making it so Stealth characters couldn’t hold camps would solve the problem and it wouldn’t be hard to put that into the game. It’s a quick fix, but would work for the time being.

When ONE thief can hold down a supply camp when a zerg of 50 people are there simply because of a rendering issue that is not fixed… something needs to be done.

The simple fix for this would be to ban all blusher or any other form of makeup from WvW.

Columba.9730:

Fiction.6418:

I have fought many of these thieves, my opinion is.. wow you guys actually have problems killing a thief even in stealth? L2p

Looks at signature, yep as expected.

Actually, thieves inherently just know how to counter other thieves. It’s not that he’s defending the act, he’s merely pointing out that it’s not that hard to take that thief down. Something I noticed people rarely observe is, thieves actually target thieves a lot, at least that’s my experience.

How many here can truly say they have never killed a thief in stealth? Random aoes, wild-swinging melees. Poof, there appears a thief, one arm stretched pining for the day when he was in stealth and not laying down in the mercy of his opponents.

Thieves like to move from cover to cover, even in stealth. while culling issues of course exist, but half the time I notice people just throw up their hands and scream in frustration when the thief is actually just hiding out of your los.

Fiction.6418:

I have fought many of these thieves, my opinion is.. wow you guys actually have problems killing a thief even in stealth? L2p

Hmmm…

-looks at sig-
“Evidence – Asura Thief "

Ahhh, makes sense.

XD

@OP: Blame the culling bug that thieves exploit like crazy. (Also blame the basic concept of stealth spike damage classes in general. They’re always lame and need to go extinct in game design).

^this.
edit: not this. The one above.
Theres a bunch of nice AoE knockbacks/knockdowns. Against a d/p thief, this does kitten but it’s nice against a CnD thief(tbh, if you can’t kill a CnD thief within 2-3 minutes, you should think about playing another game)
Against d/p, you need wild teleporting and hopping around and/or traps/marks, coupled with AoE cc. You could also call it wild mass guessing. Way more annoying and time consuming than a CnD dude could ever be.

Also forget about the culling issues… If you can’t take down a CnD thief with or without culling, it’s your fault. d/p doesn’t use culling and never ever gets visible anyway. That’s way more annoying.

As a warrior, dealing with a thief is not the issue at hand. The problem is that they, and their party members, are permanently invisible due to the model load time. When I play as a thief, I can hide my position due to this on a very permanent basis. This is wrong, and holding down a fort due to this is even more wrong.

Man those crazy ‘rouges.’

Braxxus.2904:

Fiction.6418:

I have fought many of these thieves, my opinion is.. wow you guys actually have problems killing a thief even in stealth? L2p

Hmmm…

-looks at sig-
“Evidence – Asura Thief "

Ahhh, makes sense.

XD

@OP: Blame the culling bug that thieves exploit like crazy. (Also blame the basic concept of stealth spike damage classes in general. They’re always lame and need to go extinct in game design).

lol actually, I do not use that.. and it is fairly annoying when a thief delays my camp switch by all of 45s “if he does his perma stealth well” but seriously I have no problems killing thieves when they stealth.. it is called aoe and tripwires look into it.

Ps I hate rouges.

Elthuzar.9478:

I don’t personally do this but I also don’t see how this is an exploit. It is using your professions ability to an advantage, no different from a mesmer portalling 30 people in a surprise attack.

The issue is not with the class abilities, its with using the class abilities in conjunction with the culling issues to achieve almost permanent stealth. To the best of my knowledge thieves cannot achieve perma stealth without the culling issues (aside from D/P)

The issue with mesmer portal bombs is not with transporting 30+ people instantly at the same time to one point, its the culling issues that come with transporting 30+ people at the same time to one point.

If player characters weren’t invisible when they should be visible, both of the situations would be fine.

TL:DR Culling breaks things.

Cover Girl.2580:

Anytime a class from WOW invades GW2, it’s a huge issue. Next thing you know theres a bunch of Night Elfs running wild in Hoelbrak.

Pretty sure I remember there was a profession in GW1 called the assassin that’s say been around for about 6 years. Just saying, pretty sure there is/was.

Lurch.9517:

The simple fix for this would be to ban all blusher or any other form of makeup from WvW.

I agree with this, makeup has no place in WvW.

If it wasn’t rouges, it would be eyeliners or lipsticks.

Don’t let cosmetics ruin your WvW experience.

Columba/ GekoHayate/ whomever else:
Thief perma stealth has NOTHING to do with exploiting a culling/renderin bug.
If you still believe in this fairytale, roll a thief and try for yourself.
A thief with the right traits and weaponset can stay permastealthed easely, totally legit, no rendering issues included.
The only thing that needs to be fixed is permastealthed thiefes stopping groupes from capping points. That is a totally different thing, and I agree that ANet should fix this.

Columba.9730:

It’s clear that they are exploiting the culling/rendering bug, but ANET isn’t doing anything to fix it for WVWVW.

It’s not exploiting rendering at all. It’s simple to do.
Black Powder Shot + Heartseeker
Smoke Screen + Heartseeker
Shadow Refuge stacking 5x stealth duration.
You can easily utilise your skills to do this without “exploiting” the culling/rendering issue.
I fail to see how one thief holding 30 enemies attention at one supply camp is any different from one mesmer teleporting 30 enemies behind enemy lines to “exploit” culling.

Aysnvaust.7046:

Columba/ GekoHayate/ whomever else:
Thief perma stealth has NOTHING to do with exploiting a culling/renderin bug.
If you still believe in this fairytale, roll a thief and try for yourself.
A thief with the right traits and weaponset can stay permastealthed easely, totally legit, no rendering issues included.
The only thing that needs to be fixed is permastealthed thiefes stopping groupes from capping points. That is a totally different thing, and I agree that ANet should fix this.

I’m a thief. Lvl 80. It is a fairytale, unless your definition of perma vastly differs than what it actually means.

naphack.9346:

you ever seen a perma stealth build in action?

well… no.

Think that is more or less the core of the complaint.

As a leveler I am getting used to dying while running here or there without seeing anyone untill I’m downed AND finished.

Haven’t faced one holding a camp in WvW yet myself, but heard others report it in /map.
Or maybe I did face one but never noticed it…

vsutra.8214:

I’m a thief. Lvl 80. It is a fairytale, unless your definition of perma vastly differs than what it actually means.

Don’t know what exactly you are trying to tell me, just to make it clear:
Thief, lvl 80, just like you^^.
If I want to, my char stays permastealthed for hours. Other players will see signs of me refreshing the stealth, but not the char itself. That’s my definition of thiefes permastealth in GW2.

Aysnvaust.7046:

vsutra.8214:

I’m a thief. Lvl 80. It is a fairytale, unless your definition of perma vastly differs than what it actually means.

Don’t know what exactly you are trying to tell me, just to make it clear:
Thief, lvl 80, just like you^^.
If I want to, my char stays permastealthed for hours. Other players will see signs of me refreshing the stealth, but not the char itself. That’s my definition of thiefes permastealth in GW2.

Anyone that can tab target can catch you during the revealed phase.

Aysnvaust.7046:

vsutra.8214:

I’m a thief. Lvl 80. It is a fairytale, unless your definition of perma vastly differs than what it actually means.

Don’t know what exactly you are trying to tell me, just to make it clear:
Thief, lvl 80, just like you^^.
If I want to, my char stays permastealthed for hours. Other players will see signs of me refreshing the stealth, but not the char itself. That’s my definition of thiefes permastealth in GW2.

Pray tell how is that possible? How do you stay in stealth for hours? Unless you’re exploiting some bug, I really don’t see it. If that’s the case, thieves can hold camps indefinitely and even for hours, which does not happen.

vsutra.8214:

Aysnvaust.7046:

Columba/ GekoHayate/ whomever else:
Thief perma stealth has NOTHING to do with exploiting a culling/renderin bug.
If you still believe in this fairytale, roll a thief and try for yourself.
A thief with the right traits and weaponset can stay permastealthed easely, totally legit, no rendering issues included.
The only thing that needs to be fixed is permastealthed thiefes stopping groupes from capping points. That is a totally different thing, and I agree that ANet should fix this.

I’m a thief. Lvl 80. It is a fairytale, unless your definition of perma vastly differs than what it actually means.

try the following skillbuild:
0-20(2,8)-20(5,10)-20(6,9)-0
last 10 points as you wish, prime candidates would be:
-remove a condition every 3 seconds while stealthed
-heal whenever using initiative
-regenerate during steath(weak compared to the other ones)
-alternatively, put them in critical hit for a “classic” backstab build

weapon set dagger+pistol
just use 5 skill, heartseeker, turn, heartseeker for combo finisher stealth.

Sources of initiative:
2 upon using stealth(every usage of hs)
2 upon activating signet(we will use signet of malice and at least one other active signet for that purpose)
2 every 10 seconds(trait)
1 every 10 seconds(infiltrator’s signet)
1 every 3 seconds during stealth(trait)

now just keep using black powder and 2 or 3 heartseekers, while spamming the signets whenever you need some extra initiative. Permastealth.

Revealed..?
There is no such thing. That aside, it’s pretty easy to kill a permastealthed thief, but if people are not willing to do a little research, who am I to complain..?^^
vsutra: You don’t see it? Look harder. Naphack gave an example of how to do it (it’s not how I do it, but that doesn’t matter). Why permastealthed thiefs do not keep all the supplycamps for eternity? Because they are easy to counter. Permastealth does not make you invulnerable, and as I said, there are enough signs and hints about the whereabouts of said thiefs.

revealed will only occur when you actually deal damage to anything. Just make sure you don’t hit any critters and avoid players with your heartseeker and you stay invis.

Hiho!

Small video showing “how to”: https://vimeo.com/52977465

No exploiting, just using combo-fields, traits and slot-skills.

Btw, I for myself find it pretty silly. ^^

Cheers, Silva

Kambros.8209:

Hiho!

Small video showing “how to”: https://vimeo.com/52977465

No exploiting, just using combo-fields, traits and slot-skills.

Btw, I for myself find it pretty silly. ^^

Cheers, Silva

and is this kiTTEN is acceptable?
I mean come on ANET. what the hell is this.

Okay stealth wow so cool.
But give an option to counter it!

For example in other mmos there is a skill which reveals stealth player when you cast it near them and they cannot stealth again until they are near to this skill.

But simply just not giving a counter to it is just game breaking.

SpecterMAT.7306:

Kambros.8209:

Hiho!

Small video showing “how to”: https://vimeo.com/52977465

No exploiting, just using combo-fields, traits and slot-skills.

Btw, I for myself find it pretty silly. ^^

Cheers, Silva

and is this kiTTEN is acceptable?
I mean come on ANET. what the hell is this.

Okay stealth wow so cool.
But give an option to counter it!

For example in other mmos there is a skill which reveals stealth player when you cast it near them and they cannot stealth again until they are near to this skill.

But simply just not giving a counter to it is just game breaking.

LOL, game breaking…nice post. Other mmos also grant stealth classes “perma stealth” without having to work for it. Other mmos also grant stealth classes some kind of stun prior to leaving stealth (or some form incapacitate while in stealth). Please don’t bring examples of what “other mmos” do, and tell us GW2 should do it too.

ANET, please for the love of god prevent stealth from holding up a cap in WvWvW just like you did for sPvP so we can get rid of these people that create 10+ new posts about this daily.

SpecterMAT:
Was there anything you did not understand when I wrote “..they are easy to counter”..?
There is options, what you ask for is getting those options presented to you on a silver tray, because you are to lazy to do some research on your own.
I somewhat feel like Same (player/poster here), he/she explained it more than just a few times, people just ignore it and keep on crying….

naphack.9346:

vsutra.8214:

Aysnvaust.7046:

Columba/ GekoHayate/ whomever else:
Thief perma stealth has NOTHING to do with exploiting a culling/renderin bug.
If you still believe in this fairytale, roll a thief and try for yourself.
A thief with the right traits and weaponset can stay permastealthed easely, totally legit, no rendering issues included.
The only thing that needs to be fixed is permastealthed thiefes stopping groupes from capping points. That is a totally different thing, and I agree that ANet should fix this.

I’m a thief. Lvl 80. It is a fairytale, unless your definition of perma vastly differs than what it actually means.

try the following skillbuild:
0-20(2,8)-20(5,10)-20(6,9)-0
last 10 points as you wish, prime candidates would be:
-remove a condition every 3 seconds while stealthed
-heal whenever using initiative
-regenerate during steath(weak compared to the other ones)
-alternatively, put them in critical hit for a “classic” backstab build

weapon set dagger+pistol
just use 5 skill, heartseeker, turn, heartseeker for combo finisher stealth.

Sources of initiative:
2 upon using stealth(every usage of hs)
2 upon activating signet(we will use signet of malice and at least one other active signet for that purpose)
2 every 10 seconds(trait)
1 every 10 seconds(infiltrator’s signet)
1 every 3 seconds during stealth(trait)

now just keep using black powder and 2 or 3 heartseekers, while spamming the signets whenever you need some extra initiative. Permastealth.

I stand corrected then, that is truly close to atleast perma stealth lol, I would never think to be annoying like that. But yes, after looking at this and the video someone posted, while I maintain it’s not too difficult to counter, but that is not how holding a camp should be in any way.

There are seriously 2 threads about this exact issue per day. Make capturing unaffected by stealthed players, done, fixed. Permastealth has no real use without that.

There’s an easy solution to this without touching Thieves whatsoever: make the capping circle around supply camps about half the size. It’s ridiculously large as is.

One of the major issues with the “we need a way to counter stealth” arguments is a thief without effective stealth is nothing but a VERY squishy warrior who doesn’t hit anywhere near as hard. There is a lot more into why I make that comparison, but to keep the post short I will leave it at that because that isn’t the primary point.

The way to fix issues like what is seen in that video is simply make it so thieves can not progress / stop caps while in stealth. They already do this in sPvP and there is NO reason it should work in WvW.

Until they resolve it, here is some ways you can counter thieves doing this:

If you’ll note in the video, every time the thief hit someone she gained the reveal buff and was visible. By looking around and identifying it is a smoke screen thief and not CnD, you are now aware of this major limitation of the build. If you spread out thereby reducing the viable areas for the thief to use Heartseeker and increasing the risk of accidentally heartseekering somebody, you will cause the thief to reveal itself. Once revealed, stun / lock in place and squish (as they did in the video).

If they are CnD, they are hitting something to maintain it. Simply stack up and aoe your stack to kingdom come. Eventually all of the bunnies and other squishy NPC’s will be exhausted and it will have to come to you. Once you see damage from an aoe, stun / lock / squish.

Hopefully they change it so thieves can’t progress / prevent capping soon, until then, use the above listed method’s for greater success.

As always, have fun !

well, I can think of a fun use… Just imagine, you are in the EB jumping puzzle, go into the dark room. No red names nearby. You keep jumpig and jumping, then you fall down and bam! you got a knife in your back!
That thief just used infiltrator’s signet to shadowstep to you, gaining 5 stacks of might, he might still have some stacks of might from another signet and an activated assassins signet. So suddenly, you got a 16k backstab out of nowhere. Maybe, you even got torches equipped. Who knows?
Dunno right now whether the falling distance is big enough to knock you down but it will definitely hurt.

Btw whoever found the irony can keep it :>

Nethril.7413:

If they are CnD, they are hitting something to maintain it. Simply stack up and aoe your stack to kingdom come. Eventually all of the bunnies and other squishy NPC’s will be exhausted and it will have to come to you. Once you see damage from an aoe, stun / lock / squish.

This tactic doesn’t work because in most supply camps there are buildings and other obstacles the Thief can hide behind without being in stealth. So you have no choice but to have people roam around the circle looking for them.

Again, easy fix: shrink the circle.

the big circle is needed… How else could you stall with small groups against slightly larger groups?
Just slow down capping by 66% for every stealthed player in the circle instead of outright preventing it. Problem solved.

To the OP, the perma stealth Thief is more of a client issue. Anet reduced the # of distance objects that show on user end as a ghetto way to improve game performance.

As an example, earlier today I ran to our catapult to help defend it cause from my client as I approached it appeared only “2” enemy near it. Soon as I reached the Catapult I did an instant death and was like WTF but as I lay there as a corpse trying to figure out how I went from 100-0 so quickly the server decided to show a mass zerg all around our cats, haha.

scootshoot.6583:

To the OP, the perma stealth Thief is more of a client issue. Anet reduced the # of distance objects that show on user end as a ghetto way to improve game performance.

As an example, earlier today I ran to our catapult to help defend it cause from my client as I approached it appeared only “2” enemy near it. Soon as I reached the Catapult I did an instant death and was like WTF but as I lay there as a corpse trying to figure out how I went from 100-0 so quickly the server decided to show a mass zerg all around our cats, haha.

This is completely unrelated to the perma-stealth of certain Thief builds.

Sixpax.8360:

Nethril.7413:

If they are CnD, they are hitting something to maintain it. Simply stack up and aoe your stack to kingdom come. Eventually all of the bunnies and other squishy NPC’s will be exhausted and it will have to come to you. Once you see damage from an aoe, stun / lock / squish.

This tactic doesn’t work because in most supply camps there are buildings and other obstacles the Thief can hide behind without being in stealth. So you have no choice but to have people roam around the circle looking for them.

Again, easy fix: shrink the circle.

there certainly are some situations where this isn’t as effective, but the last thing you want is your entire team spread out like bunnies. makes it very easy for the thief. in my group we have 2 people assigned to roaming, the other 8 stack in center. those 2 stick together and it’s easy to tell when the thief hits one of them. they both are prepped to lock the thief in place. they also know which camps have which hiding spots. so yes, it doesn’t always work, but it is a good premise for groups to build from and in most cases will at least increase your chances of success. It’s not 100% and really shouldn’t be necessary to overcome something as silly as this.

I wouldn’t say anyone is exploiting the culling bug, only because to avoid this bug you have to ignore one of the largest parts of the class. It’s like saying a mesmer is exploiting because they use clones, if there was a game breaking bug with clones. Anet is working on the culling issue, which they have said many times, but I’m not going to play my thief like another class while I wait.

Why not change the capping dynamic?

Instead of an all or nothing flip, that is currently stopped by ANY defending player in the circle…..

A check for defending players (team that owns the camp currently) vs. enemy players. Whichever side has more players “wins” the tug of war, and now the camp starts flipping in their direction.

Cap the speed at a constant, so the only thing that matters is that one side (defender or attacker) has more numbers to get the flip going. So the only calculation is “who has more numbers here atm?” (once the boss mob is killed). This constant would prevent 100 man zergs from flipping a camp in 3 seconds.

Columba.9730:

It’s clear that they are exploiting the culling/rendering bug, but ANET isn’t doing anything to fix it for WVWVW.

People always confuse perma stealth with culling… It’s completely different. They’re using combo field + leap to stay hidden 100% of the time. That’s not the issue. The issue is that they can prevent points from being capped while hidden and there’s no visual indicator of where they are.

I don’t know why they haven’t fixed it yet.

Wilow.3061:

LOL, game breaking…nice post. Other mmos also grant stealth classes “perma stealth” without having to work for it. Other mmos also grant stealth classes some kind of stun prior to leaving stealth (or some form incapacitate while in stealth). Please don’t bring examples of what “other mmos” do, and tell us GW2 should do it too.

You’re right, and they have always been stupid and lame in those mmo’s too, the most hated classes by far regardless of actual power level (as the nerf and buff hammers swing to try and compensate). It’s a stupid mechanic that should not exist in pvp games. It will always be a stupid mechanic.