Guild Wars 2

Please for the love of god nerf the god kitten perma-stealth build. It is such a pile of crap that I have to use stealth traps to kill a thief anymore. If you won’t nerf the build, then at least give some classes something that cancels out stealth. Im not talking crap AC skills and expensive traps, im talking like an actual skill or two.

You’re a mesmer, you can easily get away and/or force him off you because you have a lot of invulnerability and stealth

Just run away, you daft kitten. There’s no point whatsoever in wasting effort to kill a thief. Gankers are only as annoying as you let them be.

Let me play you a sad song….

Also note that. they nerfed elementalists ability to mist form stomp. it cancels the stomp if you mist form now. Yet thieves can still stealth stomp. That needs to be nerfed as well. it should destealth them if they go in for a stomp. All they really need to do to make thief less broken is make it so that stealth doesn’t stack. if they nerfed stealth itself, it would kind of mess thief up. but if they make it so that stealth no longer stacks, it will make the permastealth bullcrap less annoying and no longer possible.

Op

I totally agree with you.

I’ve been asking about this since for too long.

Yet

If it was the other way around, Aren net would nefed them to the ground.

For thief

as the sasying goes, “the sky is the limit”, “you can have everythingt in the world”

End this Tyranny at once

I cant’ figure out which one of you is the real mesmer.. nerf all mesmer clones.
/s

Nikkinella.8254:

Also note that. they nerfed elementalists ability to mist form stomp.

False? I did some mist stomps just yesterday..

they never will nerf thiefs, NEVER. All devs are playing only thiefs, and haz been buffed constantly, is generaly considered thiefs shoud not even be in gw2 at all.

normaly thiefs are played by stupid kids and trolls going for an eazy kill, thinking they are verry good. No you are not, Anet just made you perma stealth with a dish of godmode on the side just to be sure kitten kids have something to play with and buy the game

I’m a thief, but i dont like permastealth cause its boring. however, it is so easy to kill them. aoe around and theyll drop that. sorry, but if you cant kill a permastealth thief, you’re doing something horribly wrong.

Best nerf arenanet can do to thieves is to remove all upscaled and bad players from WvW so they don’t have anything to kill anymore and as such will stop playing.

Thieves have got nothing but the nerf-bat from day one. If you’re running full zerker, or a full glass cannon build, you’re gonna get jumped by any burst build, not just thieves. Stealth is all a thief has, and if you toss a daze, knockback, blind, for anything of that nature, they can’t chain stealth. Perhaps instead of blowing up the forums with “this and that is OP” you try looking at how you’re playing, and what you have to counter each play-style.

Drtrider.6314:

Thieves have got nothing but the nerf-bat from day one. If you’re running full zerker, or a full glass cannon build, you’re gonna get jumped by any burst build, not just thieves. Stealth is all a thief has, and if you toss a daze, knockback, blind, for anything of that nature, they can’t chain stealth. Perhaps instead of blowing up the forums with “this and that is OP” you try looking at how you’re playing, and what you have to counter each play-style.

“boohoo, my backstab crits got nerfed from 17k down to 12k” “im an engineer, my burst build got DELETED, just.. flat out gone, it doesnt exist anymore”

You know nothing of nerfs. Thieves are one of the least nerfed professions, and the most buffed professions.

^This. And thieves practically remove conditions every time they fart. So saying, just lock them down with conditions is pretty stupid. They have a ridiculous amount of stunbreakers and condition cleanses.

Terrahero.9358:

Drtrider.6314:

Thieves have got nothing but the nerf-bat from day one. If you’re running full zerker, or a full glass cannon build, you’re gonna get jumped by any burst build, not just thieves. Stealth is all a thief has, and if you toss a daze, knockback, blind, for anything of that nature, they can’t chain stealth. Perhaps instead of blowing up the forums with “this and that is OP” you try looking at how you’re playing, and what you have to counter each play-style.

“boohoo, my backstab crits got nerfed from 17k down to 12k” “im an engineer, my burst build got DELETED, just.. flat out gone, it doesnt exist anymore”

You know nothing of nerfs. Thieves are one of the least nerfed professions, and the most buffed professions.

At least you had a burst build. Rangers never got the chance!

Rangers need a buff. Everyone knows that. I miss how my snow leopard used to be. And Eles need their damage back where it was in beta. That’s why I laugh at thieves who say they got their damage nerfed. they took maybe less than 10% cut in their burst damage and complain. Eles got nerfed by over 60%. They had amazing burst builds back in beta. But thieves who stood still in the giant red circles complained and that got cut by a ridiculous amount. now they can stand in the aoe and regen what little damage we do. The only way you can deal enough damage to them with AoE to be a threat now is being glassy, which leaves you open to being 1 shotted by their insane burst, which they don’t have to sacrifice any of their defensive capabilities for.

I dunno. As a warrior I found my usually not great in 1v1 shout heal hammer build pretty good against them. Just need stuns and stun breaks. From what I’ve seen they have little in way of cond removal or stability.
I only get half the kills though as a good theif knows how to get away.

Tips from thieves I know and experience.
Have a stunbreaker.
Have control effects.

My favorite is when the make a house and I earthshaker it followed by ae knockback.

Shouthammer is a nice build for helping allies too. 7k ae heal with stunbreaker which fuels the earthshaker. If I know the thief is around I just wait for him to take some squishy bait.

Nikkinella.8254:

Rangers need a buff. Everyone knows that. I miss how my snow leopard used to be. And Eles need their damage back where it was in beta. That’s why I laugh at thieves who say they got their damage nerfed. they took maybe less than 10% cut in their burst damage and complain. Eles got nerfed by over 60%. They had amazing burst builds back in beta. But thieves who stood still in the giant red circles complained and that got cut by a ridiculous amount. now they can stand in the aoe and regen what little damage we do. The only way you can deal enough damage to them with AoE to be a threat now is being glassy, which leaves you open to being 1 shotted by their insane burst, which they don’t have to sacrifice any of their defensive capabilities for.

Thief burst isn’t nearly as good as you make it out to be.

Nearly every fire skill for scepter does more damage than backstab. Warrior eviscerate and even axe auto does more than backstab.

Stealth is powerful, no one is going to deny it. But even with as powerful as stealth is, the Thief class isn’t outclassing the competition. Elementalists, Mesmers, Rangers, and even Guardians are just as good at roaming as Thieves are, but most of those at least have some functional worth outside of roaming.

Ill somewhat agree that perma stealthing is overpowered. I personally don’t mind perma stealthing existing in this game so long as it came with a sizeable damage loss (it doesn’t because initiative regen is so poorly balanced). But Thieves aren’t the unstoppable killing machines people make them out to be and they have no real value to the current WvW meta as it stands right now.

“boohoo, my backstab crits got nerfed from 17k down to 12k” “im an engineer, my burst build got DELETED, just.. flat out gone, it doesnt exist anymore”

You know nothing of nerfs. Thieves are one of the least nerfed professions, and the most buffed professions.[/quote]

I’ve never played the back-stab ‘cookie cutter’ thief build actually. So I could care less. However, thieves have gotten their fair share of nerfs across the board. And I’ve been nuked by engineers time and time again, so you may be using your build wrong.
You imobe/blind a thief, and they’re as good as dead.
I know about 95% of thieves use shadow refuge to reset fights, and I only see about 5% of players counter it. The sad part is, it’s PAINFULLY easy to counter. One knockback, one pull, and that thief is going to be stuck out of stealth flopping on the floor having no idea what to do.
I think people need to be a little more conservative on their CC skills, and learn how to properly use them.

Ninja Edit: Before we start the band-wagon train of who is nerfed, who needs a buff ect… Let me say this, thieves are not as deadly as every one thinks. If you find a perma-stealth thief. Walk away. So they can stealth, but they’re using every utility, and all of their resources to do so, leaving them with little to nothing in an actual fight. The only way a ‘super OP backstab thief’ is going to kill you, is if you let them. They have a one-trick pony, that only really works on other full berserker builds. After they blow all their cool downs, they’re going to shadow refuge to try and reset. Keep them from doing that, and you win every time, hands down.

I don’t know. I have a zerker P/P build with my thief and all it takes is 2 unloads to drop just about anyone.

Now if you want to nerf thieves. Get rid of their ability to exploit their way into fortified keeps using shortsword and shadowstepping onto smc wall from outside.

Pretty sure it wasn’t dev intention to have a class that can bypass keep/tower defenses

Nikkinella.8254:

^This. And thieves practically remove conditions every time they fart. So saying, just lock them down with conditions is pretty stupid. They have a ridiculous amount of stunbreakers and condition cleanses.

But… I easily kill them on both my engineer and my necro who are both condition based. They remove a max of 2 conditions while stealthed if traited, not to mention you can apply more conditions while they’re still stealthed. They have like 2 active methods that I know of of removing more conditions and both are like 30 second cooldowns (and one may only remove movement conditions while taking up a utility slot IIRC).

Seriously, thieves are not trouble. All you have to do is AoE near where they just stealthed. If I were a mesmer, I’d shatter often so they can’t stealth off my clones and so they AoE can hit them and when they pop up, blink away or something then go in for one of those sword 2 shatter combos. Thieves die incredibly quick when immobilized. If you’re a phantasm build, just blink and stealth all over the place and leave your phantasms up to wallop the thief the second they appear. Seriously, you shouldn’t have trouble even with the lack of AoE that mesmers have.

I had difficulty with thieves for about a day after getting to WvW. My engineer can pretty much walk in a straight line and spam either bombs or grenades behind him and they just die. My necro just stands in his marks and fears them when they pop out of stealth. It’s incredibly simple. I’m sure there are some good thieves that won’t die to these tactics but they’re not that common and you probably should have trouble with a good player anyway.

(Also, perma-stealth thieves are not backstabbing you for huge numbers. You need to use an offhand pistol for perma-stealth, meaning you don’t get cloak and dagger to apply vulnerability with. D/P thieves are also pretty easy to hit while stealthing because they have a little red circle that appears on the ground like a giant bullseye.)

joshisanonymous.5270:

But… I easily kill them on both my engineer and my necro who are both condition based. They remove a max of 2 conditions while stealthed if traited, not to mention you can apply more conditions while they’re still stealthed. They have like 2 active methods that I know of of removing more conditions and both are like 30 second cooldowns (and one may only remove movement conditions while taking up a utility slot IIRC).

Seriously, thieves are not trouble. All you have to do is AoE near where they just stealthed. If I were a mesmer, I’d shatter often so they can’t stealth off my clones and so they AoE can hit them and when they pop up, blink away or something then go in for one of those sword 2 shatter combos. Thieves die incredibly quick when immobilized. If you’re a phantasm build, just blink and stealth all over the place and leave your phantasms up to wallop the thief the second they appear. Seriously, you shouldn’t have trouble even with the lack of AoE that mesmers have.

I had difficulty with thieves for about a day after getting to WvW. My engineer can pretty much walk in a straight line and spam either bombs or grenades behind him and they just die. My necro just stands in his marks and fears them when they pop out of stealth. It’s incredibly simple. I’m sure there are some good thieves that won’t die to these tactics but they’re not that common and you probably should have trouble with a good player anyway.

(Also, perma-stealth thieves are not backstabbing you for huge numbers. You need to use an offhand pistol for perma-stealth, meaning you don’t get cloak and dagger to apply vulnerability with. D/P thieves are also pretty easy to hit while stealthing because they have a little red circle that appears on the ground like a giant bullseye.)

Necros are a little much right now IMO, however he’s right. It does not take that much to counter any thief really. Stealth is not as strong as people say it is, and the sad part is, all these baddies complaining about it is going to result in Anet nerfing them into the group and upsetting quite a large lunch of the player base. We’ve already seen that with the ridiculous stealth traps.

Terrahero.9358:

Drtrider.6314:

Thieves have got nothing but the nerf-bat from day one. If you’re running full zerker, or a full glass cannon build, you’re gonna get jumped by any burst build, not just thieves. Stealth is all a thief has, and if you toss a daze, knockback, blind, for anything of that nature, they can’t chain stealth. Perhaps instead of blowing up the forums with “this and that is OP” you try looking at how you’re playing, and what you have to counter each play-style.

“boohoo, my backstab crits got nerfed from 17k down to 12k” “im an engineer, my burst build got DELETED, just.. flat out gone, it doesnt exist anymore”

You know nothing of nerfs. Thieves are one of the least nerfed professions, and the most buffed professions.

Yeah, cause your burst allowed you to spam immobilize until your opponent was out of evades and stunbreaks then go in for the free kill. 17k is a number I’ve heard attached to 100nades, but I’ve yet rarely heard with BS (like once against someone without armour rare). 12k is closer to where it is now, and that high is very lucky, cause most of the time it’s around 8k. “Least nerfed, most buffed” is an out right fallacy. Go re-read the patch notes.
Engies don’t have it as rough as we sometimes make it out to be. We can be as tanky and mobile as an Ele, we can nearly as effective with conditions as Necro. In most cases with Engie, if you want to build it, you can achieve it, at least as far as support, condi, control, mobility, and bunking are concerned.

I say everyone make a thief, and ban all other classes. Thief Wars.

Just. Think. About. It.

Little Thief on Thief action, oh the good fun to be had.

Honestly, just think about 20 thieves vs 20 thieves. It would be a battle to do a backstab, but with everyone around you trying to keep your team in stealth. WIN

Drtrider.6314:

I know about 95% of thieves use shadow refuge to reset fights, and I only see about 5% of players counter it. The sad part is, it’s PAINFULLY easy to counter. One knockback, one pull, and that thief is going to be stuck out of stealth flopping on the floor having no idea what to do.
I think people need to be a little more conservative on their CC skills, and learn how to properly use them.

This too. Shadow refuge is just another bullseye for where to AoE/CC, although a bigger one than black powder. A greatsword mesmer can just immediately knock them out of the circle, a staff mesmer can nearly cover the whole thing with a chaos storm, a mesmer with an offhand focus can pull them out with the 4 ability. There are numerous options even for a class with few AoEs.

When I see a thief shadow refuge on my necro I know the fight is over because I can fear them out and then they’re helpless and low on health. It’s similar for engineers who have an absurd amount of AoE/CC for those situations.

No one should have trouble burning through a thief’s 15k hits with 0 toughness unless said thief has some lightning reflexes (then you would probably be dying regardless of the class that player was on).

Antara.3189:

I say everyone make a thief, and ban all other classes. Thief Wars.

Just. Think. About. It.

Little Thief on Thief action, oh the good fun to be had.

Honestly, just think about 20 thieves vs 20 thieves. It would be a battle to do a backstab, but with everyone around you trying to keep your team in stealth. WIN

No thank you. I’ve had thief vs thief battles before and i’d prefer root canal over doing it again. 30 minute long fights of constantly resetting everything. It’s more a battle of patience than anything else. first person to get frustrated over how aggravating it is and slips up loses.

Nikkinella.8254:

Antara.3189:

I say everyone make a thief, and ban all other classes. Thief Wars.

Just. Think. About. It.

Little Thief on Thief action, oh the good fun to be had.

Honestly, just think about 20 thieves vs 20 thieves. It would be a battle to do a backstab, but with everyone around you trying to keep your team in stealth. WIN

No thank you. I’ve had thief vs thief battles before and i’d prefer root canal over doing it again. 30 minute long fights of constantly resetting everything. It’s more a battle of patience than anything else. first person to get frustrated over how aggravating it is and slips up loses.

Doesn’t get more balanced than that ;-0

Terrahero.9358:

Drtrider.6314:

Thieves have got nothing but the nerf-bat from day one. If you’re running full zerker, or a full glass cannon build, you’re gonna get jumped by any burst build, not just thieves. Stealth is all a thief has, and if you toss a daze, knockback, blind, for anything of that nature, they can’t chain stealth. Perhaps instead of blowing up the forums with “this and that is OP” you try looking at how you’re playing, and what you have to counter each play-style.

“boohoo, my backstab crits got nerfed from 17k down to 12k” “im an engineer, my burst build got DELETED, just.. flat out gone, it doesnt exist anymore”

You know nothing of nerfs. Thieves are one of the least nerfed professions, and the most buffed professions.

Wow, your lack of knowledge is astounding. Thieves have gotten nerfed in every single patch since BEFORE launch, even in beta. as far as most buffed profession? are you joking? or do you have some sort of tunnel vision that allows you not to see guardians?

Melkiah.2496:

Nikkinella.8254:

Also note that. they nerfed elementalists ability to mist form stomp.

False? I did some mist stomps just yesterday..

I believe what he/she is trying to say is that going INTO mistform now interrupts casting actions, like going into Elixir S does with engineers. Because why nerf elementalists when you can nerf engineers as well?

lunyboy.8672:

Melkiah.2496:

Nikkinella.8254:

Also note that. they nerfed elementalists ability to mist form stomp.

False? I did some mist stomps just yesterday..

I believe what he/she is trying to say is that going INTO mistform now interrupts casting actions, like going into Elixir S does with engineers. Because why nerf elementalists when you can nerf engineers as well?

That’s what I meant. Yet thieves can still stealth stomp and stealth res all they want.

Nikkinella.8254:

I don’t know. I have a zerker P/P build with my thief and all it takes is 2 unloads to drop just about anyone.

Thanks for the laughs, p/p thief is a walking loot bag

Nikkinella.8254:

lunyboy.8672:

Melkiah.2496:

Nikkinella.8254:

Also note that. they nerfed elementalists ability to mist form stomp.

False? I did some mist stomps just yesterday..

I believe what he/she is trying to say is that going INTO mistform now interrupts casting actions, like going into Elixir S does with engineers. Because why nerf elementalists when you can nerf engineers as well?

That’s what I meant. Yet thieves can still stealth stomp and stealth res all they want.

And ele can still mist form stomp, engi can still elixir stomp, warrior can stability stomp, invuln stomp. guardian can blind stomp, stability stomp, aegis stomp, bubble stomp. ranger can invuln stomp. whats your point?

Antara.3189:

I say everyone make a thief, and ban all other classes. Thief Wars.

Just. Think. About. It.

Little Thief on Thief action, oh the good fun to be had.

Honestly, just think about 20 thieves vs 20 thieves. It would be a battle to do a backstab, but with everyone around you trying to keep your team in stealth. WIN

100% thieves in WvW… Maps look completely empty… LOL.

I’m waiting for some ballsy guild to form an engineer turret zerg. Think about it. Every engie can bring 4 utility turrets + another 4 from Supply Crate (traited). Imagine 30+ engineers storming a keep. 30 × 8 = 240 turrets!!!

Why you should roll thief or Mesmer.

Prime Example

Antara.3189:

I say everyone make a thief, and ban all other classes. Thief Wars.

Just. Think. About. It.

Little Thief on Thief action, oh the good fun to be had.

Honestly, just think about 20 thieves vs 20 thieves. It would be a battle to do a backstab, but with everyone around you trying to keep your team in stealth. WIN

Why would people roll a thief for wvw, when they already all switched to guardians, nothing more faceroll easy in wvw than guardian. Lets play a guessing game, what class was the first to achieve ultimate dominator, i’ll give you a hint, it wasnt a thief…..

Shemsu.8721:

Antara.3189:

I say everyone make a thief, and ban all other classes. Thief Wars.

Just. Think. About. It.

Little Thief on Thief action, oh the good fun to be had.

Honestly, just think about 20 thieves vs 20 thieves. It would be a battle to do a backstab, but with everyone around you trying to keep your team in stealth. WIN

Why would people roll a thief for wvw, when they already all switched to guardians, nothing more faceroll easy in wvw than guardian. Lets play a guessing game, what class was the first to achieve ultimate dominator, i’ll give you a hint, it wasnt a thief…..

lol, well it might be easy but I can honestly say that I have killed more guardians than thieves or mesmers.

And I’m on a ranger normally. I’ve killed guardians with my Condition build, and that’s not saying much.

EDIT: let me clarify, I can only account for a handful of thief kills, which honestly most were not running the normal stealth+backstab setup. As far as mesmers go, not sure if I’ve ever killed one.

I’m only rank 26 though.

I will be honest, everytime I see a thief coming at me (if I see it at all)

this is what I imagine everyone of you/them are listening to when ganking

Antara.3189:

I will be honest, everytime I see a thief coming at me (if I see it at all)

this is what I imagine everyone of you/them are listening to when ganking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyEE0qpfeig

I’m sorry you havnt learned how to fight thieves and mesmers. Many others have however, for alot of players thieves are just there to deliver loot bags

Shemsu.8721:

Antara.3189:

I will be honest, everytime I see a thief coming at me (if I see it at all)

this is what I imagine everyone of you/them are listening to when ganking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyEE0qpfeig

I’m sorry you havnt learned how to fight thieves and mesmers. Many others have however, for alot of players thieves are just there to deliver loot bags

Do you have a ranger? If so please feel free to indulge me in tactics behind making a thief a “walking loot bag”. I was just poking fun with some light humor. But if you want to get on the attacking role, serious role, that’s fine too.

So on that note.

Personally I have found the only logical method to stopping a thief that runs the specific build that is in all threads related to the thief in the WvW section; is the ranger elite “Entangle” which mind you is fairly slow, can be interrupted, or easily dodged. But generally if I get this off, the thief will be stealth but stuck in the roots long enough to be revealed and spiked. Granted, this can cause specific builds to loose it’s overall effectiveness when running that particular survival skill.

I have yet to try my new build out that takes away from the condition aspect and focuses on high power/crit dmg in the initial 10 seconds. So I can update you when I come across a thief.

If you do not role a Ranger however, I please ask you to refrain to tell me to re-roll another class. That argument genuinely is inaccurate as ArenaNet has stated every class can counter another class. More or less everyone is balanced to the same level (give or take).

But I am definitely looking at recommendations on tactics on combatting fellow players who roll thieves. Sounds like you know a large portion of the fanbase who knows already as well. Maybe you can point them in my direction.

In my conclusion I will have to agree that the Thief combination of Stealthing and doing high critical damage is overpowered and can be game breaking on various levels. There are countless videos, debates such as this, that highlight just that.

Honestly though, I have no issues with someone rolling a thief, because it’s in the game and it’s there to play. But to criticize and down other players because they feel griefed when combatting against a thief, is simply crude and shallow.
Thank you.

Yeah, thieves haven’t been nerfed at all -_- It’s true that Anet haven’t touched the perma stealth or the backstab zerker build much, but they’ve destroyed all other viable builds. They mess with stuff that were working and leave the broken stuff alone. Backstab zerker / perma stealth is the most viable build, and that’s that. Trust me when I say we want to have other builds made viable, because we want. There’s a reason why several good thieves are in these forums learning people to counter stealth. We also drop a ton of good ideas on how to fix the profession, the only problem is that Anet never listens.

I have yet to see a single live stream with a thief. I have yet to see a dev participate in the thief community. I have yet to see a dev play a thief. The best profession? For what? Roaming WvW, killing up leveled and bad players. Yay!

Shadowblade.2103:

Please for the love of god nerf the god kitten perma-stealth build. It is such a pile of crap that I have to use stealth traps to kill a thief anymore. If you won’t nerf the build, then at least give some classes something that cancels out stealth. Im not talking crap AC skills and expensive traps, im talking like an actual skill or two.

Like a crowd control skill?…I just made a new berserker mesmer the other day and have already learned how to do just fine against thieves. Sure, I don’t win every battle but neither do they. Learn your class, man. If your class can’t do well against thieves, then play a different class. It’s like rock paper sciccors. Maybe in this case, you’re the scissors and he’s the rock. Am I making any sense?

Just change the class name and use GW2 classes, in this case:

Xenon.4537:

I’m waiting for some ballsy guild to form an engineer turret zerg. Think about it. Every engie can bring 4 utility turrets + another 4 from Supply Crate (traited). Imagine 30+ engineers storming a keep. 30 × 8 = 240 turrets!!!

Yup, they all line up, place their turrets and stand around looking at each other with wrenches in hand.

They pick up the turrets, walk 600 units, drop their turrets as the come off cool down. 2 minutes later, they have all of them up and running again, and are standing around.

Meanwhile, 30 perma-stealth thieves walked right past them, and took a tower.

I agree…. Perma Stealth IS a pile of crap. It doesn’t make Thieves anymore effective in WvW and it definitely doesn’t get them the same rewards of better built classes.

This is partially because roaming is only good for getting a couple Badges here and there. It’s hard for tryhards to admit it, but honestly they KNOW they’re only playing some little mini-game here that really has no major impact on the Rankings week after week. And we were constantly asking for some Meta overhauls here, but what did we get instead this Spring? ….A stupid Title Grind based off the Canthan Title track that is easily 6 years out of Date now and won’t be “Retro” again anytime soon.

So yeah… there’s only ONE REASON for any of this garbage to exist and it’s for Bad Trolly players to troll other Bad players with. Even my completely worthless Ranger is laughing at these thieves who barely get a 15k BS off if they’re lucky, then just watch me instantly Regen back to 100% like I’m kittening Wolverine.

It’s tedious, and just encourages bad habits. It needs something better in its place plz.
Just give it the ShadowForm treatment & completely GET RID of any huge DPS components and give them real Group Utility instead when they use stealth to reach the back lines of a Zerg. I don’t KNOW HOW to do that or what needs to happen …. maybe some kind of multi-target Scorpion Wire or crazy Stealing everything-in-sight all-at-once that puts them on tier with Mesmers using surprise butt-kitten Portals?

WHATEVER. Just dooooo eeeet.

Dual.8953:

17k is a number I’ve heard attached to 100nades, but I’ve yet rarely heard with BS (like once against someone without armour rare).

Say again? This backstab was done to my warrior with 1500 toughness. I had full health, no conditions like vunerability, or anything. I was just standing outside of my keep watching a few people in the distance. I died in just two hits (C&D and BS).

Thieves, how can I “L2P” if I can’t see almost 20K in damage coming?

You can dodge even if there is no daily for that.

I would give a +10% damage to thief if they would lose their stealth when they take any damage, like in most of online games where dev doesn’t only play this class and care about the balance.
I don’t have any problem in a 1vs1 agaisnt thief, but i can see that it can kill most of average players quickly even if you barely know how to play. When a decent player play thief (not many), it’s even more powerfull and easy.

EvilSardine.9635:

Dual.8953:

17k is a number I’ve heard attached to 100nades, but I’ve yet rarely heard with BS (like once against someone without armour rare).

Say again? This backstab was done to my warrior with 1500 toughness. I had full health, no conditions like vunerability, or anything. I was just standing outside of my keep watching a few people in the distance. I died in just two hits (C&D and BS).

Thieves, how can I “L2P” if I can’t see almost 20K in damage coming?

You were standing outside the keep. You were too busy watching those few people to scan the other 260 degrees for incoming enemies. Your fault for letting you guard down and standing out in the open.

joshisanonymous.5270:

Drtrider.6314:

I know about 95% of thieves use shadow refuge to reset fights, and I only see about 5% of players counter it. The sad part is, it’s PAINFULLY easy to counter. One knockback, one pull, and that thief is going to be stuck out of stealth flopping on the floor having no idea what to do.
I think people need to be a little more conservative on their CC skills, and learn how to properly use them.

This too. Shadow refuge is just another bullseye for where to AoE/CC, although a bigger one than black powder. A greatsword mesmer can just immediately knock them out of the circle, a staff mesmer can nearly cover the whole thing with a chaos storm, a mesmer with an offhand focus can pull them out with the 4 ability. There are numerous options even for a class with few AoEs.

When I see a thief shadow refuge on my necro I know the fight is over because I can fear them out and then they’re helpless and low on health. It’s similar for engineers who have an absurd amount of AoE/CC for those situations.

No one should have trouble burning through a thief’s 15k hits with 0 toughness unless said thief has some lightning reflexes (then you would probably be dying regardless of the class that player was on).

Yes, shadow refuge is pretty much a dead give away that the thief is low on health and I relish knocking/pulling them out of it and seeing that awkward couple seconds they just stand there eating my damage and not knowing what to do next. However, there are a few thieves with enough sense to put some distance between us before shadow refuge and that buys them enough time to fully stealth and there isn’t anything I can do about that. There’s a counter to retal, confusion etc but not a single one to stealth and that is a problem(and not those costly and clumsy consumables Anet added).