Guild Wars 2

Nice big gift pack in april to prevent player migrate to TESO online, now you are “listening” the community after a year ignoring us, but what about perma stealth?

P/D seems to be unchanged with the latest set of upcoming patches. I am guessing CnD off of inanimate objects (walls, doors, mortars, etc) is probably going to persist as well.

It could be adjusted we just don’t know for sure yet. Odds are nothing will change.

urieldhynne.2743:

Nice big gift pack in april to prevent player migrate to TESO online, now you are “listening” the community after a year ignoring us, but what about perma stealth?

Doesn’t everyone in ESO get sneak? I wouldn’t imagine people that hated perma-stealth on one class here migrating there where entire armies can sneak around unseen.

Distaste.4801:

Doesn’t everyone in ESO get sneak? I wouldn’t imagine people that hated perma-stealth on one class here migrating there where entire armies can sneak around unseen.

I’m not at all a TESO fan but I can see that if “everyone has it”, there wont be so many complaints about one class.

Distaste.4801:

urieldhynne.2743:

Nice big gift pack in april to prevent player migrate to TESO online, now you are “listening” the community after a year ignoring us, but what about perma stealth?

Doesn’t everyone in ESO get sneak? I wouldn’t imagine people that hated perma-stealth on one class here migrating there where entire armies can sneak around unseen.

Except the stealth mechanic of GW2 and the sneak mechanic of TESO are – apparently – quite different. The following is the second-hand report of someone who played the beta, so it’s not straight from the TESO devs. For what it’s worth, though, here is how sneak appears to work:

- Stealth Mode can be used by everyone but will drain stamina
- In Stealth Mode you will appear like a shade to allies
- In Stealth Mode you will be invisible to enemies to within a certain range (called the detection range)
- In Stealth Mode inside detection range you will appear like a shade to an enemy
- You are immediately taken out of Stealth Mode when damaged

This is a much better implementation of a stealth/sneak/invisibility mechanic, IMHO, as it imposes an opportunity cost; the draining of stamina while in stealth mode. So, unless there exists a means for regenerating stamina faster than it drains while in sneak mode, stealth in TESO has a natural limit to it.

Also, it’s not absolute; get too close to an enemy and you appear as a shade (likely a semi-transparent or smoky shape rather than full invisibility) or take damage and get knocked out of stealth.

I’m also led to understand that sneak is initiated by crouching down. I think it’s safe to assume that while crouched, your character is going to move slower.

Contrast those mechanics with GW2’s where stealth is absolute regardless of distance, has no opportunity cost associated with it, imposes no mobility restrictions, and damage does not reveal a stealthed player. Now, if stealth were to drain initiative or endurance while invisible, that would be more akin to the TESO implementation. But, yeah…like that would ever happen.

Also in teso everyone has access to this, so it balances it out.
Radiant Magelight I
Cast Time Instant
Target Self
Cost 28 Stamina
Summons a light that reveals hidden and invisible enemies within 12 meters. Reduces Max Magicka by 5% and increases Spell Critical strike chance by 10%. Nearby friendly targets take 50% less damage from stealthed attacks. Toggle to activate.
New Effect:
Nearby friendly targets take less damage from stealth attacks.

The fact that stealth can almost be freely entered into by some classes on a near constant basis, not to mention the ability to be revealed through damage isn’t available, is one of the most ridiculous ive seen out of many MMOs. The implementation of being revealed through damage or a stealth bar is desperately needed, in my opinion. Many may disagree with me on this but the survivability and strategic advantages of stealth are too powerful in gw2.

Especially after hearing that theyre buffing thief survivability while not nerfing their stealth capabilities.

The diference of GW2’s stealth vs any other decent games is others games mechanics has detections and counter stealth.

GW2 just has a perma spameable invisibility.

urieldhynne.2743:

The diference of GW2’s stealth vs any other decent games is others games mechanics has detections and counter stealth.

GW2 just has a perma spameable invisibility.

As well as dodge/cc mechanics that counters stealth. As well as non targeted attacks that can hit stealthed targets – other games with conventional stealth do not have that (besides very few untargeted aoe abilities). As well as insane power creep and low passive defences of stealth classes compared to most other games, what enables ppl simply kill stealthed targets in a matter of seconds.

Karolis.4261:

urieldhynne.2743:

The diference of GW2’s stealth vs any other decent games is others games mechanics has detections and counter stealth.

GW2 just has a perma spameable invisibility.

As well as dodge/cc mechanics that counters stealth. As well as non targeted attacks that can hit stealthed targets – other games with conventional stealth do not have that (besides very few untargeted aoe abilities). As well as insane power creep and low passive defences of stealth classes compared to most other games, what enables ppl simply kill stealthed targets in a matter of seconds.

Doesn’t stop the Spy from being amazing in TF2. ’Course, they actually have to try to get kills and actually sneak instead of flying around with leaps and shadowsteps.

Imagine how OP the Spy would be if you could rocket jump like the Demo/Soldier and could backstab while cloaked without having to worry about getting spy checked because your opponent doesn’t get a prompt telling them they hit a cloaked foe?

Karolis.4261:

urieldhynne.2743:

The diference of GW2’s stealth vs any other decent games is others games mechanics has detections and counter stealth.

GW2 just has a perma spameable invisibility.

As well as dodge/cc mechanics that counters stealth. As well as non targeted attacks that can hit stealthed targets – other games with conventional stealth do not have that (besides very few untargeted aoe abilities). As well as insane power creep and low passive defences of stealth classes compared to most other games, what enables ppl simply kill stealthed targets in a matter of seconds.

Those other games also have dodge, block, cc etc etc to counter stealth. Yes, ESO’s stealth is far far more balanced than is the perma stealth nonsense in GW2. ANet’s refusal to deal with this laughably OP mechanic will lose them customers. Most of my guild, which includes some ANET employees, is leaving for teso. that should tell you something.

My GW2 Thieves are hands down the most OP’d class I’ve played in 20+ years of MMOs. Anet refuses to listen to the majority who is sick to death of the troll permastealth garbage. Let’s add to that, the state of the warrior class. Not as op’d as thieves but the perma stun garbage is abhorrant.

Anyone who claims that thieves are defenseless without stealth are lying. their HP is comparable to other medium armor classes, their armor is medium (better than some classes) and they can spec high toughness and healing if they choose to. Most thieves don’t spec survivability because they can spec massive dps AND have better defenses with stealth. broken, trash mechanic.

After at least a few dozen threads shedding light on this particular issue, I’m not exactly optimistic about a.net ever getting to grips with stealth. It is ingrained in the design of certain classes (notably, of course, the thief) to the point where a redesign would be too risky and/or place too large demands on resources to be warranted. Or at least that’s how I think a.net feels about it.

Stealth is hands down the worst mechanic that exists in GW2. Though you certainly can’t blame thief players for playing the hand that was dealt them, it doesn’t take long to realize why a mechanic that is tied into almost all of the benefits of the class (damage, healing, condition removal, etc) while having nearly no limitations (a short “revealed” debuff) is a bad idea. It is never the wrong move to stealth, there is hardly any perceivable risk associated with it, and there are no counters. It’s just bad design, and it needs an overhaul.

But it will take a lot of pressure to make a.net move on this. It does at least make you wonder how many more of these threads they are willing to endure/ignore.

The stealth in ESO is significantly different the GW2. You crouch, move slower, use stamina (and that is a bigger deal then it sounds) and are far easier to detect. Most important however is once combat starts you can’t re-stealth over and over and over. Nightshade can use a stealth while in combat but it is short and sure as hell not teleporting miles away, curing conditions and healing at the same time

On the downside in ESO every class can stealth, and if you attack from behind no matter the class you can do significant opening damage. The stealth mechanics in GW2 are the worst I have ever seen in a game, but not sure how much better everyone having stealth is going to be in ESO, LOL

ManaCraft.5630:

After at least a few dozen threads shedding light on this particular issue, I’m not exactly optimistic about a.net ever getting to grips with stealth. It is ingrained in the design of certain classes (notably, of course, the thief) to the point where a redesign would be too risky and/or place too large demands on resources to be warranted. Or at least that’s how I think a.net feels about it.

Stealth is hands down the worst mechanic that exists in GW2. Though you certainly can’t blame thief players for playing the hand that was dealt them, it doesn’t take long to realize why a mechanic that is tied into almost all of the benefits of the class (damage, healing, condition removal, etc) while having nearly no limitations (a short “revealed” debuff) is a bad idea. It is never the wrong move to stealth, there is hardly any perceivable risk associated with it, and there are no counters. It’s just bad design, and it needs an overhaul.

But it will take a lot of pressure to make a.net move on this. It does at least make you wonder how many more of these threads they are willing to endure/ignore.

well many of us will just leave for better games. guess that’s pressure, lol

ManaCraft.5630:

After at least a few dozen threads shedding light on this particular issue, I’m not exactly optimistic about a.net ever getting to grips with stealth. It is ingrained in the design of certain classes (notably, of course, the thief) to the point where a redesign would be too risky and/or place too large demands on resources to be warranted.

One possible and easily implemented solution already presents itself; initiative degens while in stealth. If it reaches zero, the thief is revealed. This isn’t the first time I or others have suggested this. Make stealth have an opportunity cost associated with.

It then becomes a matter of choosing to stealth for extended periods of time at the cost of damage because there’s insufficient initiative to fuel certain skills or shorter amounts of time spent in stealth to conserve initiative.

There’s precedent for this already. Just look to necromancers’ Life Force. A resource which builds up and then – when in Death Shroud – naturally degens over time. For the necro, this degen acts as a limiter on their profession-specific mechanic. With this suggestion, a similar limit is now placed on thieves’ stealth, as well.

It would be easy to implement. The hard part is ArenaNet finding the will to do it.

I don’t think i have ever played a game where the stealth mechanic has been designed well. TF2 is the closest i can think of. I haven’t played ESO, but from what people are saying, it seems very good. Stealth in GW2 is as bad as it gets. Terrible stuff.

Stealth isn’t that bad, its just annoying and ingrained into our class. There’s just too many benefits for most thieves to spec into stealth and the shadow arts trait line, it would need a drastic redesign like less nerfs to sword builds and buffs to pistol/pistol specs.
I play stealthless and get round fine, even those high burst d/p thieves and mesmer aren’t much of a problem for me anymore.

It’s a pity it’s such a BORING game outside of it’s stealth mechanic lol. Terrible animations, clunky combat, and running accross a barren land for 5-10 minutes at a time is NOT my idea of fun… LOL.

This game is about avoid frustration, is because that is a casual game aimed for casual gamers.

Downed state, perma spameable stealth, high mobility (without target required, aimed to get out of combat and not gap closer enemy only) like GS warrior, etc, etc. Never in a game was more easy to get out of combat like GW2.

GW2 is about “dont die, because is frustrating” , better run away, and the winner has a “moral victory” – Win Win. Nobody lose. All happy.

The whole Thief profession has been poorly designed, its whole profession is tied in so crucially into a single overpowered mechanic.
That just changing this mechanic will break the Thief profession unless drastic changes are made to Thieves aswell.

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

Stealth isn’t that bad, its just annoying and ingrained into our class. There’s just too many benefits for most thieves to spec into stealth and the shadow arts trait line, it would need a drastic redesign like less nerfs to sword builds and buffs to pistol/pistol specs.
I play stealthless and get round fine, even those high burst d/p thieves and mesmer aren’t much of a problem for me anymore.

Terrahero.9358:

The whole Thief profession has been poorly designed, its whole profession is tied in so crucially into a single overpowered mechanic.
That just changing this mechanic will break the Thief profession unless drastic changes are made to Thieves aswell.

It doesn’t need a drastic redesign nor will changing it break the Thief profession. Simply give stealth an opportunity cost. One suggestion for doing so is to drain initiative at the rate of 1 point per second while stealthed.

The natural regen of initiative would also be halted while in stealth. The only initiative-related trait that would need restructuring would be Patience. Instead of regaining initiative faster while in stealth, it would slow the stealth-induced initiative degeneration to 1 point every 2 seconds.

Good thieves will adapt and learn to manage their initiative as a resource that fuels their stealth in addition to their weapon skills. Bad thieves won’t adapt and will QQ on the forum.

CrossFire.8037:

I don’t think i have ever played a game where the stealth mechanic has been designed well. TF2 is the closest i can think of. I haven’t played ESO, but from what people are saying, it seems very good. Stealth in GW2 is as bad as it gets. Terrible stuff.

Agreed. Team Fortress 2 got stealth as near to perfect as possible with their Spy profession. Why? Because the Spy’s invisibility is resource-dependent. Despite this, truly skilled Spy’s are a force to be reckoned with in TF2. So any counter-argument that making stealth in GW2 resource-dependent would destroy the Thief profession is fallacious; it would only destroy those who don’t know how to manage their initiative.

TESO is implementing limiters and opportunity costs on their version of stealth that – on paper anyway – appear to make it a very balanced implementation, as well.

In light of an almost 7 year old game (TF2) and a new game (TESO) that are doing stealth right, one wonders why GW2 can’t do the same.

Idk what it is with permastealth, I wvw all the time and don’t find it an issue. I think people don’t know how to deal with theifs maybe, and that gives them issues.
This strikes me as a l2p issue. Thiefs can be annoying, sure, but when it comes to being powerful in wvwvw, warriors, eles, necros, are way stronger.

Are you guys serious? “perma stealth” is both stupid to use, and kills all initiative very fast…

All I see is nubtards playing other classes complaining…

I, who actually have some successful rogues in other games, think the stealthmecanism in this game is totally broken, and useless, except for the healing I get.
I like the wow and rift style, where you can permastealth, but it also is a very risky thing to do, as you have to go, in rift at least, so deep into assassin, that you are very easy to kill…

I would like guardians and warriors to be nerfbatted, those 2 classes are seriously overpowered, and yes, I have one of each, I know what I’m talking about.

patteSatan.4561:

Are you guys serious? “perma stealth” is both stupid to use, and kills all initiative very fast…

No it doesnt. When most people say perma-stealth, they dont mean staying in stealth 100% of the time not doing anything.

They mean having a ~2 second visible window in which you have to bring down the thief from 100% to 0% because after that he will stealth again and when he reappear, you got another ~2 seconds to bring him down from 100% HP again because he’s fully healed no matter what damage you did the first time. Repeat until either the thief or you die. And guess which one die first when said thief can take a 2K toughness target from 25K HP to 10K HP in the 2 seconds he is visible.

It doesnt really matter if certain classes are better equipped to counter it with instant invoulnerability skills (let me guess, you play a warrior or guardian and dont see the issue?), its still cheezy as hell and this design of stealth should never exist in any game, period. Its not a fun PvP mechanic for anyone except for the thief going “lololol he’s so bad player he got owned by my weak thief that cant escape or damage anything”.

Much as I don’t really enjoy playing or playing against D/P thieves, it’s kinda your own fault if you are endlessly trolled by them. If you are solo roaming you have to play around it, and in groups you should have enough CC and / or power builds that can pretty much instantly kill a glass thief. Or, you can simply take the low road and roll a dire perplexity build that can’t be killed with backstabs before the thief is forced to retreat or bleeds / burns to death.

daydream.2938:

Idk what it is with permastealth, I wvw all the time and don’t find it an issue. I think people don’t know how to deal with theifs maybe, and that gives them issues.
This strikes me as a l2p issue. Thiefs can be annoying, sure, but when it comes to being powerful in wvwvw, warriors, eles, necros, are way stronger.

The problem is not how to deal vs a thief, the problem is the thief has ABSOLUTE control over the fight end and start. If a good thief is losing they just perma stealth, reset everything and try again. If you kill the thief is a bad thief. You CANT kill a good thief, the victory comes when the thief run away permanently.

Most common situation in wvw is 3 or more players trying to kill a perma stealth/high mobility thief. The thief win? no. The ppl win? no. Is only a waste of time for everyone. And a funny moment for a trolling thief backstabbing and running away every time.

This game’s stealth is the most laughably imbalanced mechanic I’ve ever seen. It’s embarassing that this nonsense has been in so long. It’s also hilarious that our class has been nerfed in spvp but not in wvw. I can go for hours on my thief without dying in wvw. I don’t understand how people find that challenging, but so many bad players play this class and don’t want to give up their god mode.

urieldhynne.2743:

daydream.2938:

Idk what it is with permastealth, I wvw all the time and don’t find it an issue. I think people don’t know how to deal with theifs maybe, and that gives them issues.
This strikes me as a l2p issue. Thiefs can be annoying, sure, but when it comes to being powerful in wvwvw, warriors, eles, necros, are way stronger.

The problem is not how to deal vs a thief, the problem is the thief has ABSOLUTE control over the fight end and start. If a good thief is losing they just perma stealth, reset everything and try again. If you kill the thief is a bad thief. You CANT kill a good thief, the victory comes when the thief run away permanently.

Most common situation in wvw is 3 or more players trying to kill a perma stealth/high mobility thief. The thief win? no. The ppl win? no. Is only a waste of time for everyone. And a funny moment for a trolling thief backstabbing and running away every time.

I 1on1 duel with thiefs all the time, win 80% of them. When I solo roam on my engie im often not facing other people with dueling experience and I win 90% +. Sure, sometimes the thief escapes and runs away, but meh.

And in big fights, thiefs matter way less than aoes like eles, or necros.
,

Unfortunately Anet’s inability to address certain issues will be the reason people eventually decide to move away from this game, All i can say is that a lot of the Devs must play thief.

There is also a more game breaking issue that’s becoming more regularly used by certain individuals.

zen.6091:

Or, you can simply take the low road and roll a dire perplexity build that can’t be killed with backstabs before the thief is forced to retreat or bleeds / burns to death.

Lmao, maybe I’m misinterpreting this so I apologize if so, but… “The low road”? So rolling a condition build isn’t fair because we’re harder for a Thief to kill? Sorry.. But I can’t burst a Thief down in the 2seconds they’re visible before stealthing again. So I compensate by stacking as many conditions as I can before they disappear and hopefully either reappear downed or running with their tail between their legs.

Anyway, in regards to the subject at hand… I agree with just about everything people have said here. It’s nice to know I’m not the only one who thinks it’s a bullsh** mechanic. Fortunately I’m a high condition damage Necromancer so most of the time they don’t cause me a lot of trouble… But again, as has been said here, if it’s a good Thief you pretty well can’t win because they’ll just keep resetting the fight. And that’s exactly what happens.
Thieves don’t need any nerfs. What they do need is some kind of risk versus reward for stealthing as a pose to being able to spam it at will. If you call that a nerf you’re forgetting that you don’t have to run a glassy build… Thieves are a medium weight profession. Berserker gear isn’t the only stat available to you, there are plenty of others to choose from. I’ve fought Thieves who run stealthless and I respect them like mad because they’re not abusing a broken mechanic. Not only that the stealthless ones are just as deadly, but at least I have a fair chance to defend myself.
Imho, anyone who says QQ when people say something needs to be done about perma stealth are one of two things; someone who has never played anything but a Thief, or someone who rolled a Thief so they could troll and don’t want their griefing abilities removed.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

zen.6091:

Or, you can simply take the low road and roll a dire perplexity build that can’t be killed with backstabs before the thief is forced to retreat or bleeds / burns to death.

Lmao, maybe I’m misinterpreting this so I apologize if so, but… “The low road”? So rolling a condition build isn’t fair because we’re harder for a Thief to kill? Sorry.. But I can’t burst a Thief down in the 2seconds they’re visible before stealthing again. So I compensate by stacking as many conditions as I can before they disappear and hopefully either reappear downed or running with their tail between their legs.

Anyway, in regards to the subject at hand… I agree with just about everything people have said here. It’s nice to know I’m not the only one who thinks it’s a bullsh** mechanic. Fortunately I’m a high condition damage Necromancer so most of the time they don’t cause me a lot of trouble… But again, as has been said here, if it’s a good Thief you pretty well can’t win because they’ll just keep resetting the fight. And that’s exactly what happens.
Thieves don’t need any nerfs. What they do need is some kind of risk versus reward for stealthing as a pose to being able to spam it at will. If you call that a nerf you’re forgetting that you don’t have to run a glassy build… Thieves are a medium weight profession. Berserker gear isn’t the only stat available to you, there are plenty of others to choose from. I’ve fought Thieves who run stealthless and I respect them like mad because they’re not abusing a broken mechanic. Not only that the stealthless ones are just as deadly, but at least I have a fair chance to defend myself.
Imho, anyone who says QQ when people say something needs to be done about perma stealth are one of two things; someone who has never played anything but a Thief, or someone who rolled a Thief so they could troll and don’t want their griefing abilities removed.

Not all thieves feel that way. I play several thieves, and I completely agree with your sentiment. This broken stealth mechanic is ruining this game, makes GW2 a laughingstock, and drives players to other games. Too many thieves want their precious god mode because they are bad players.

TESO handles stealth much much better. Many of us will be going there for a fairer game.

Am I missing something? Perma stealth was completely nerfed on Dec 10th. The max I can get is, like, 30 seconds. It takes a lot of concentration. I actually quite like the stealth mechanics but I do think that a nice addition would be a certain increase in damage taken while in stealth. If they changed anything that is.

Sanduskel.1850:

TESO handles stealth much much better. Many of us will be going there for a fairer game.

If you and the ones leaving are doing it because of stealth, I can only say “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.”. Now if you are leaving beacuse all the lag/glitching/hacking/neglect, well then I have to agree you have right.

Pavel.8531:

Sanduskel.1850:

TESO handles stealth much much better. Many of us will be going there for a fairer game.

If you and the ones leaving are doing it because of stealth, I can only say “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.”. Now if you are leaving beacuse all the lag/glitching/hacking/neglect, well then I have to agree you have right.

well you must be one of the priviledged few who enjoy stealth in this game, lol. The other reasons you cite are valid too though.

Karolis.4261:

urieldhynne.2743:

The diference of GW2’s stealth vs any other decent games is others games mechanics has detections and counter stealth.

GW2 just has a perma spameable invisibility.

As well as dodge/cc mechanics that counters stealth. As well as non targeted attacks that can hit stealthed targets – other games with conventional stealth do not have that (besides very few untargeted aoe abilities). As well as insane power creep and low passive defences of stealth classes compared to most other games, what enables ppl simply kill stealthed targets in a matter of seconds.

No. Just, no. Wildly swinging melee weapons is not a counter. Get real. And many classes have very limited access to aoe and non-targeted attacks.

A well played thief (and lets be honest, it is not hard to play a thief), with full stacks of everything (borderlands bloodlust, sigil bloodlust X25, Applied Strength, Applied Fortitude), consumables, and ascended gear really can’t be defeated in wvw. Multiple well played thieves easily wipe twice their numbers and they can do it really, really quickly.

The results will look something like this:
1)2.5K steal
2)5.5k c&d
3)8k backstab
[…] a couple auto attacks for 500 each
4)10k Heartseeker
DEAD x_x

The combination of shadow stepping, stealth, high evasion, extremely high spike damage, and no cooldowns due to the initiative system results in a very, very broken class.

Sentry.3691:

Karolis.4261:

urieldhynne.2743:

The diference of GW2’s stealth vs any other decent games is others games mechanics has detections and counter stealth.

GW2 just has a perma spameable invisibility.

As well as dodge/cc mechanics that counters stealth. As well as non targeted attacks that can hit stealthed targets – other games with conventional stealth do not have that (besides very few untargeted aoe abilities). As well as insane power creep and low passive defences of stealth classes compared to most other games, what enables ppl simply kill stealthed targets in a matter of seconds.

No. Just, no. Wildly swinging melee weapons is not a counter. Get real. And many classes have very limited access to aoe and non-targeted attacks.

A well played thief (and lets be honest, it is not hard to play a thief), with full stacks of everything (borderlands bloodlust, sigil bloodlust X25, Applied Strength, Applied Fortitude), consumables, and ascended gear really can’t be defeated in wvw. Multiple well played thieves easily wipe twice their numbers and they can do it really, really quickly.

The results will look something like this:
1)2.5K steal
2)5.5k c&d
3)8k backstab
[…] a couple auto attacks for 500 each
4)10k Heartseeker
DEAD x_x

The combination of shadow stepping, stealth, high evasion, extremely high spike damage, and no cooldowns due to the initiative system results in a very, very broken class.

Agreed. Anet’s stubborn refusal to address this laughably broken mechanic will come back to haunt them. Whenever I talk to gamers about GW2, they remark that they don’t appreciate getting ganked by invisible enemies – no thanks.

I’m glad thieves are being nuked… permastealth and a billion DPS….. I think we have all seen thieves take on whole groups of players and win.

Adamtrue.3716:

I’m glad thieves are being nuked… permastealth and a billion DPS….. I think we have all seen thieves take on whole groups of players and win.

nobody likes thieves. even as a thief i hate my fellow thieves. arrogant and annoying.

Which cheese class could I play if you nerf mah stealth?

The Cheesemonger (introduced on April 1st) would be a choice but beware of the Camembert Cannon.

Obviously the stealth mechanics are horrible though overall at least in WvW the role of a thief is often limited to picking of people at the edges of the Zerg. Other classes seem to be far better for almost anything that matters in WvW which of course is due to the large role Zergs play in taking over and defending Towers and Castles.

agreed.

perma stealth, outside of the location objective direction pvp has, is beyond broken.

fix yo shiz anet.

Sentry.3691:

Karolis.4261:

urieldhynne.2743:

The diference of GW2’s stealth vs any other decent games is others games mechanics has detections and counter stealth.

GW2 just has a perma spameable invisibility.

As well as dodge/cc mechanics that counters stealth. As well as non targeted attacks that can hit stealthed targets – other games with conventional stealth do not have that (besides very few untargeted aoe abilities). As well as insane power creep and low passive defences of stealth classes compared to most other games, what enables ppl simply kill stealthed targets in a matter of seconds.

No. Just, no. Wildly swinging melee weapons is not a counter. Get real. And many classes have very limited access to aoe and non-targeted attacks.

A well played thief (and lets be honest, it is not hard to play a thief), with full stacks of everything (borderlands bloodlust, sigil bloodlust X25, Applied Strength, Applied Fortitude), consumables, and ascended gear really can’t be defeated in wvw. Multiple well played thieves easily wipe twice their numbers and they can do it really, really quickly.

The results will look something like this:
1)2.5K steal
2)5.5k c&d
3)8k backstab
[…] a couple auto attacks for 500 each
4)10k Heartseeker
DEAD x_x

The combination of shadow stepping, stealth, high evasion, extremely high spike damage, and no cooldowns due to the initiative system results in a very, very broken class.

if you’re getting hit for those numbers, try getting some gear with toughness on it.

I have a feeling stealth is going to be used more after this upcoming patch. Even thieves who try to play with minimal stealth will probably use it now.

It sucks but hey, thieves kinda needed it. This update might actually help produce more viable builds and god knows thieves need some.

Sentry.3691:

The results will look something like this:
1)2.5K steal
2)5.5k c&d
3)8k backstab
[…] a couple auto attacks for 500 each
4)10k Heartseeker
DEAD x_x

The combination of shadow stepping, stealth, high evasion, extremely high spike damage, and no cooldowns due to the initiative system results in a very, very broken class.

Amen! Sometimes, after getting ganked by this utterly non skilled/ op rotation, I’ll take a screen cap of the combat log. I really don’t want to spend the time to look but, I’m certain this rotation is an extremely high percentage of my deaths in WvW. It’s also VERY macro friendly which makes it very bad for the game. This rotation needs a 50% damage reduction. And, I used to say 20% but, as time and power creep continues, I keep upping the nerf.

To the Dev’s, don’t you EVER say you are working towards build diversity when you don’t touch the most spammed rotation in the game.

Frigid.6027:

if you’re getting hit for those numbers, try getting some gear with toughness on it.

Sure… please do tell us all how much toughness is required to not only mitigated a thieves damage output BUT, allow us to be able to apply enough damage to beat a thief? What, there isn’t enough? k thx by

I don’t mind thieves having stealth and teleports. It’s that they should NOT having all that burst. Thief burst needs to be knocked down by a lot.

Not fun to play and not fun to play against.. Do the math ArenaNet.

Snorcha.7586:

Not fun to play and not fun to play against.. Do the math ArenaNet.

If’s not Living Story or e-sports, they don’t care.

Sanduskel.1850:

Snorcha.7586:

Not fun to play and not fun to play against.. Do the math ArenaNet.

If’s not Living Story or e-sports, they don’t care.

Perhaps they just don’t care about bad players complaining. The same players that dont even bother pressing 1 when a thief stealths against them to see if they connect any hits. The same players who dont buy stealth traps and place them while the thief resets. Oh hey even the same players that have trolled thief forums for months on end and took up over a page in posts on the devs looking for feedback from the last balance post.

Someone in this topic said 2 second window i guess they aren’t aware of how long the reveal de-buff lasts. Seems to me like no one has taken the time to figure out how to counter thieves but rather just complain about them. Count 4 seconds turn around you just mitigated back stab by half. Don’t have a turn around button bound? Be less lazy.

Thieves are in the bracket of having the lowest based health. Survivability is built in through stealth.

Eles are in the same bracket with survivability built in through auras and skills that allow for healing beyond the #6 skill.
Guards are also in that bracket with survivability built in through blocks and substantial heals.

While I think the stealth here is probably not a very great concept in comparison to the thief forefather, the Assassin, without it I’m not sure they would be a class worth playing because you would be dead the majority of the time.

Great thieves rely on it less.

I do love how this thread seems to scream that this game can’t be played because you may run into a thief now and again in wvw between zerg clashes. Stop the exaggeration please.

What thieves that are running high damage specs are going deep into shadow arts anyway unless running some sort of venomshare build? Just about every thief I see in spvp is running 10/30/0/0/30 and I’m guessing wvw is not really that different. Easy to notice daze on steal shadow step and I see it all the time more often than not.

P/D may be the exception, but can do well without going into SA at all. I know I do when I play mine.

I play all classes and have to say dealing with thieves is in my mind a l2p issue. You win some, you lose some. I look at it this way, thief is meant to do exactly what it does…kill and annoy. Pick off random stragglers because we all know that thieves have virtually no multi target “in the thick of it” zerg kill skills.

Speaking of the Assassin from GW1, they didn’t have stealth at all and ppl still cried over them like they do with every assassin/rogue archetype in every single game including shooters.

I can’t wait for the crying to begin once you actually hit TESO and get bombed on. I know it’s going to happen.

DeWolfe.2174:

Sentry.3691:

The results will look something like this:
1)2.5K steal
2)5.5k c&d
3)8k backstab
[…] a couple auto attacks for 500 each
4)10k Heartseeker
DEAD x_x

The combination of shadow stepping, stealth, high evasion, extremely high spike damage, and no cooldowns due to the initiative system results in a very, very broken class.

Amen! Sometimes, after getting ganked by this utterly non skilled/ op rotation, I’ll take a screen cap of the combat log. I really don’t want to spend the time to look but, I’m certain this rotation is an extremely high percentage of my deaths in WvW. It’s also VERY macro friendly which makes it very bad for the game. This rotation needs a 50% damage reduction. And, I used to say 20% but, as time and power creep continues, I keep upping the nerf.

To the Dev’s, don’t you EVER say you are working towards build diversity when you don’t touch the most spammed rotation in the game.

C&D doesn’t hit for 10k unless you’re almost out of health + glass + cloth. On that note, the above combo can be broken pretty easy. block/dodge c&d. If you’re a necro, put some wells around ya. Mesmers can hide in clones, engies can drop turrets, guards can block/protect. Warriors have enough block/mobility to do what they want. You really must have no idea how thieves work if that combo is giving you issues. There’s a thousand ways to counter it.