Guild Wars 2

People are still defending these runes LOL

Need to delete them from game.

TyPin.9860:

I met today on my necromancer an engie massing Confusion on his targets and I challnged him for duels. He used condition duration and condition dmg food buffs, I used none. I am running myself a condition necromancer.

And I gave him back his confusion. He apperently didn’t expect that the first fight and died very quickly. The 2nd fight he was more cautios but I with almost no life lsot at the end of the fight. This was my 1st expereince with such a confusion build, I gues he used perplexity runes. It was quite simple to deal with him…

The first time that happened to me back before the confusion nerf (vs a necro), was the last. I picked up arcane thievery after that, I stacked the confusion on him, he flicked it back to me, so I passed it back to him.

In the video I posted above, the first stun the warrior got me on at the top of the stairs I passed the 9 stacks back to him. He promptly cleansed. Even with my arcane thievery traited I can’t do that anywhere near as often as he can apply.

Agreed. I have a big condition cleanse on heal and two condition transfer skills. Also I was cautios not to “do” too much. Here the necro habbit of doing everything a bit annoyingly slow was helpfull, cuz the confusion triggered not that often. Also he ran very often from me, when I put fear on him, there I had enough time to consider what to do^^ I admit for other professions that might be harder.

okay i can deffo report they arnt broken on guardians right now

They are way too powerful and need a serious nerf with ICD.

the bonus no. 6 is broken.

easy fix would be 10 sec internal cooldown .

not hard for ANET to implement.

Rennoko.5731:

koroshi.2658:

This needs to be adressed. It is just ridiculous how strong it is and it needs to be changed. I expected changes in the last patch, but nothing happened so I just took some random footage from my stream and put it in a video. To show you how easy it is to stack up the confusion coming from the interuption bonus of the rune set.

The broken part of the rune is each interrupt adds 5 stacks of confusion for 10 seconds duration without internal cooldown, which allows you to stack 25 confusion without too much effort.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQdahy5wjnU

You could argue, and I would argue that the on-hit confusion is also quite overpowered when compared with other runes, compeltely ignoring the obviously overpowered 6 bonus with no internal cooldown.

However you happen to be playing a class that can easily an fluidly stack up multiple interrupts, which isn’t the case for all classes.

Just look at tormenting runes 4 bonus vs. the 4 bonus from perplexity. Confusion on hit vs. 15% longer torment? That isn’t even in the same ballpark.

I do like the runes, and use them now, as they are one of the few rune sets that feels like it makes a difference. It would be nice if there were other on-hit runes out there for other effects, or on-interrupt (with ICD of course).

This will certainly get patched next patch, but I don’t think it is as big a problem right now as you make it out to be. Most of the people you beat the tar out of, you would likely have beat the tar out of without the 22 stacks of confusion.

Now if you want to look at hammer train warriors who stack 9 on an AOE skill, and coordination of that with necros, that can very much be a big problem

I use these on my thief. D/P headshot spam/P/D scorp wire/basilik. It’s a little too powerful. Needs a 10 second ICD.

Xsorus.2507:

If the Confusion on Interrupt was 3 Seconds, You’d never see Confusion Go off as they’d not be able to use any skills while Interrupted, making it a completely useless 6 Point Ability.

That is why its 10 seconds base, Cause while people are interrupted, they’re not actually using abilities.

With the duration increase of confusion from rune/traits/food that is far from being the truth. Plus, unless you’re a warrior, your stuns don’t last 3 sec… 10sec i ridiculous compared to any other skill applying confusion.

As far as thief not using these as well as a war/eng… I saw a S/P + P/D thief use them with scary as kitten results.

I can not think of another set of runes that have as much effect as this set. They are as strong as a master + grandmaster trait. They are build defining runes. Other rune sets support builds… they don’t define them… at the very least not to the extent that perplexity does. That makes me agree that they are in need of some adjustment.

I agree with Nuka that 10s is too long when compared to other skills even taking into account the pre-req of needing to interrupt.

I agree with several others that interrupts are easily accessed by some classes… and the set to not having an ICD creates a problem.

IMO the only question would be how to do it as to not trash the set.

To be honest I think 10s is even pretty strong.

Most rune effects are on something silly like 45, which is too long, but being interupted it already a punishing thing, and many classes can trait to add extra effects to interupts already, and to then add 3 confusion onto that.. thats a big deal, and 10s isnt that long frankly.

I’d go with 15 I think.

These runes work so well because for 1-year people have facerolled their skills and have yet to really be “punished” for it. It has bred a legion of skill spammers that have done so without penalty, and now think that “this is the way the game is played”.

The closest we came prior to this was the “pre-confusion nerf” days, but even then it wakitten or miss.

They do seem OP at times, I run them on my warrior. But at other times I hardly notice them other than the 20% chance of confusion on hit.

Essentially when I face good players they realize quite quickly what I am trying to do and they time their skills better. When I face bad players I can essentially stun them, watch their debuffs, stun again as soon as the first one wears off, and more than likely they are pounding on their keyboards and take the interrupt. Then it is just rinse and repeat from there. Coincidentally these same players, are the ones that will spam themselves to death with 15+ stacks of Confusion.

King Amadaeus.8619:

These runes work so well because for 1-year people have facerolled their skills and have yet to really be “punished” for it. It has bred a legion of skill spammers that have done so without penalty, and now think that “this is the way the game is played”.

The closest we came prior to this was the “pre-confusion nerf” days, but even then it wakitten or miss.

They do seem OP at times, I run them on my warrior. But at other times I hardly notice them other than the 20% chance of confusion on hit.

Essentially when I face good players they realize quite quickly what I am trying to do and they time their skills better. When I face bad players I can essentially stun them, watch their debuffs, stun again as soon as the first one wears off, and more than likely they are pounding on their keyboards and take the interrupt. Then it is just rinse and repeat from there. Coincidentally these same players, are the ones that will spam themselves to death with 15+ stacks of Confusion.

But I think the better question is, what rune set could you ever replace this one with? What is the point of releasing new runes if they are going to completely invalidate all older rune sets?

On a necromancer, who can make little to no use of these runes (6 bonus) in a standard condition build, I still run 5/6, because they far out-pace any other rune set with a free long time 3 confusion proc.

If they fix the bug where fear doesn’t cause an interrupt next patch, even with a 10 second (hell 20 second) internal cooldown, it is a huge increase in damage for me.

There should be more options with “on hit” procs and other conditions from that if you are going to open this can of worms. Personally, I think they would have been better off NOT opening that can…

The problems:

1. They gave it the same high raw condition stats as all the other condition sets (undead, nightmare, necromancer). Why take anything else as it offers the best raw damage stats already?

2. An easy to proc and long duration confusion. It should have either been harder to proc, or shorter duration.

3. The 6 bonus has no ICD, and its far too long with condition duration applied to it. It should have also been less stacks.

Let me show you what these runes should have looked like if they tailored them after existing runes.

(1): +28 Condition Damage
(2): 15% Confusion Duration
(3): +55 Condition Damage
(4): 5% chance to cause Confusion (3 stacks) when hit (5 second cooldown).
(5): +100 Condition Damage
(6): Causes 5 seconds of Confusion (5 stacks) on interrupt. (20 second cooldown)

Condition users would still like it (good condi damage itemization), good 6 proc when you factor in some extra condition duration, okay 4 proc like other similar rune sets. This is a balanced rune set, because no one is quite sure if it is worth taking over what they currently use.

Bear in mind that I like these runes and what they introduce to the game, which is intelligent thought, but you need more options and more variety before you make a sweeping shift in itemization like this.

I would prefer if many runes changed the when struck proc to when you strike someone, right now mix and match is 9 out of 10 times better than taking the full rune set. Lyssa is an example of a good rune set where you at least have to think about taking the 6th piece bonus. That would be across the board for things like ogre runes etc. Some runes are fine when struck like chance to proc protection makes sense when struck but 5% chance to cause bleeding when struck? 5% chance to cause poison?

oZii.2864:

I would prefer if many runes changed the when struck proc to when you strike someone, right now mix and match is 9 out of 10 times better than taking the full rune set. Lyssa is an example of a good rune set where you at least have to think about taking the 6th piece bonus. That would be across the board for things like ogre runes etc. Some runes are fine when struck like chance to proc protection makes sense when struck but 5% chance to cause bleeding when struck? 5% chance to cause poison?

I agree completely. But that move has to be made on more than one rune at a time, or you end up with what is going on right now. I would love more on-interrupt effects as well. Or when applying effect X, also apply 5 seconds of effect Y.

Basically confusion got really easy for everyone to use and apply, so why not poison, burning, and everything else?

Anet please make these:

Runes of Complexity
1): +28 Power
(2): +15% Stun Duration
(3): +55 Power
(4): 20% chance to cause Daze when hit (5 second cooldown).
(5): +100 Power
(6): Causes 10 seconds of Daze on critical.

Thx

Oozo.7856:

Simonoly.4352:

It appears that on Warriors this rune set is a tad ridiculous due to existence of a trait that already does the same thing. But what about other classes? Any Guardians trying out these runes? I’m sure Ring of Warding/Line of Warding could be used to achieve some nice stacks too.

A guardian friend was getting some 20+ stacks from RoW, LoW, and Sanctuary just messing around.

Yep, it’s ridiculous.. and even worse, people complaining about warriors in 1v1 stun locking… guradians are doing this to zergs…. there ain’t no cap on how many people can run into our wardings.

This has to be the biggest, most idiotic oversight Anet has done to date.

10s ICD minimum. I would say 12-14s would be optimal.

~OR~ put an Immunity / -Duration buff on Stun Locking… IE: DAOC.

These runes are absolutely broken right now. The most hilarious part is watching people down themselves by trying to use their heal skill.

The problem with these runes, btw, compared to things like the warrior trait and even mesmer skills, is that they are just an added condi-burst and heavy condi pressure on already capable condi builds. The warrior build, for instance, is able to inflict decent bleeding + power damage on top of great survivability, so sitting around doing nothing isn’t an option if you want to live. Engineers have tons of sustain and the ability to just spam CC and get interrupts while applying heavy condi pressure. Guardians in zergs…well that is just silly. These are easily the most powerful runes in the game, bar none because they are so powerful on any class that does condi-damage.

All the people claiming “but this just punishes skill spammers” act like they spend 50% of the time positioning and only attack occasionally. Confusion proc on almost EVERY SINGLE ACTION YOU TAKE, which is why its not good to give such easy access.

Finally, for those saying warriors could already do this with a trait: that is true, but doling out 4 stacks on your valuable interrupts (which should be timed) isn’t an instant path to win, its just an augmentation to your current pressure. Dishing out 9 stacks (a 125% increase) is INSANE pressure for just using 1 skill.

Bura of Pacra.1589:

And just like most 1v1 situations, this rune set is pretty much moot in a zerg vs. zerg battle.

Epidemic says hi.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Bura of Pacra.1589:

And just like most 1v1 situations, this rune set is pretty much moot in a zerg vs. zerg battle.

Epidemic says hi.

i really want to see a 25 confusion epidemic, lets get a group of engineers mesmers and necros together with runes of perplexity and condition spam zergs to doom

I think it shows how little the Dev’s care about WvW that they haven’t nerfed these runes yet. It just shows that they are not paying attention at all.

I thought Anet was a team committed to PVP. Instead they seem focused on shallow and silly pve events.

20+ stacks of confusion in a few seconds is simply kittened.

As to skill spam punishing… WTF you supposed to once you use your CD abilities… just have a scratch?

ukuni.8745:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Bura of Pacra.1589:

And just like most 1v1 situations, this rune set is pretty much moot in a zerg vs. zerg battle.

Epidemic says hi.

i really want to see a 25 confusion epidemic, lets get a group of engineers mesmers and necros together with runes of perplexity and condition spam zergs to doom

Hammer warrior bailing off into the zerg has a similar effect. AoE stuns, Stomp, even Rampager elite. It is pretty fun.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Oozo.7856:

Ragnar.4257:

Tsezar.6950:

th probelm with this runes is the duration as well.. i got today 20 stacks confusuin wich last like 15 sec.. 15 sec wehre you cant do anything when you already have low hp

Can’t do anything…… except cleanse the condition.

But only noobs slot condition cleanse right?

Only noobs don’t realize that confusion from the runes will be applied at a much faster rate than condition removers come off of cooldown.

Only noobs don’t realize that good players will force a condition removal before using their interrupts to stack confusion.

Only noobs don’t realize that good players will wait until stability is gone before using their interrupts to stack confusion.

Wow, I can play this game too.

It’s just that conditions in this game are generally too strong as they allow both extreme defense and extreme damage. These runes are just tip of the ice berg, even if I hate that saying.

Conditions can be cleansed, most professions have some form of cleanse that syncs nicely with popular builds. You may have to sacrifice some dps for it, but most of these “condi-tanks” have sacrificed for their build as well.

lunyboy.8672:

Conditions can be cleansed, most professions have some form of cleanse that syncs nicely with popular builds. You may have to sacrifice some dps for it, but most of these “condi-tanks” have sacrificed for their build as well.

Most classes do not have a cleanse. Most do have multiple condition removal but the conditions that are removed are seemingly random. Condi builds typically apply multiple conditions and there are almost a dozen different conditions. A player removing conditions better hope it removes the best ones. Condi builds also apply conditions in rapid fire so as soon as they are gone they show right back up.

I also don’t think condi damage itself is a problem but being coupled with defensive skills on bunker style builds makes it problematic for a lot of classes particularly those with low HP pools. At least with direct damage you know big damage = squishy. Going bunker or control should come at the cost of DPS not increase it as it is doing in some cases.

Straegen.2938:

lunyboy.8672:

Conditions can be cleansed, most professions have some form of cleanse that syncs nicely with popular builds. You may have to sacrifice some dps for it, but most of these “condi-tanks” have sacrificed for their build as well.

Most classes do not have a cleanse. Most do have multiple condition removal but the conditions that are removed are seemingly random. Condi builds typically apply multiple conditions and there are almost a dozen different conditions. A player removing conditions better hope it removes the best ones. Condi builds also apply conditions in rapid fire so as soon as they are gone they show right back up.

I also don’t think condi damage itself is a problem but being coupled with defensive skills on bunker style builds makes it problematic for a lot of classes particularly those with low HP pools. At least with direct damage you know big damage = squishy. Going bunker or control should come at the cost of DPS not increase it as it is doing in some cases.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_removal#Skills_that_remove_conditions

From the wiki:
“the most recently applied condition or conditions will be removed first.”

All professions have skills and traits that remove conditions, some do have more than others, and some have more convenient ones than others. But it is still there.

“..Low HP Pools…” Stack vitality. I stack toughness to combat your direct damage.

“..apply conditions in rapid fire…” Learn their skills, my grenades show a red circle and hang in the air for a few seconds. I learned skills from most other professions so I could know when to dodge out of them.

“At least with direct damage you know big damage = squishy” Not really. What Warriors call “big damage” is damage I have never seen myself. I have 0 skills that hit like 100 blades. Perhaps it would be enough to run some PVT pieces, lose some DPS for survivability?

“Going bunker or control should come at the cost of DPS not increase it as it is doing in some cases.” It does, at least for my profession. I don’t hit like a truck when I do ANYTHING. My pistol #1 hits for (considerably) less than the retaliation that is procs. For that matter, my Grenade #1 hits for less than retal does back to me.

I have access to very VERY little stability, a medium health pool on leather armor, very little in the way of direct damage without rolling extreme glass cannon. I believe the same is true for Necros, who wear light armor. Would it kill you to wear some Pvt and use a bit more condition removal?

Or are all the OP professions going to start complaining that they don’t want to have to worry about conditions, so just nerf them all into the ground (again)?

Edit: Oh, you’re a ranger, so you know how it is to be at the bottom of the pile. Ok, so I can’t categorize you as an OP profession, BUT…. Rangers can basically spec anything they want in this game, conditions, healing, DD, control, etc. So why don’t you just get a set until they get nerfed and see how it goes? XD

ICD negates the whole point of the rune, which was to give mesmer’s another way to spread aoe confusion. Instead they should have given this to mesmers on a trait instead of on a rune. Once you add an icd, it becomes single target only. A single target confuse with a 20s cooldown wouldn’t be worth having the 6/6, in the same way the tormenting runes suck w/a 20s cd. I’d still run 5/6 on my engy though if they actually fix the +30% duration, so anet can do what they want. Personally, I’d rather see an x% damage increase to confusion in the 6/6 slot, and give mesmer’s a trait revision for the interupt.

lunyboy.8672:

Or are all the OP professions going to start complaining that they don’t want to have to worry about conditions, so just nerf them all into the ground (again)?

OP is in the eye of the beholder… I personally think the classes are pretty balanced overall (Ranger drew the short straw). Any decent player isn’t going to be a push over in any class which is good. What happened is this patch installed a significant boost to condi damage that players are trying to deal with. Perplexity in general may simply be too powerful especially when a single rune set becomes a flavor of the month this quickly.

lunyboy.8672:

I have access to very VERY little stability, a medium health pool on leather armor, very little in the way of direct damage without rolling extreme glass cannon. I believe the same is true for Necros, who wear light armor. Would it kill you to wear some Pvt and use a bit more condition removal?

Necros have one of the largest health pools in the game. Engis are some of the best bunkers able to go invuln for quite a while and block frequently. Besides we are talking about rune of perplexity and how it can be abused not generic Engi builds.

lunyboy.8672:

“the most recently applied condition or conditions will be removed first.”

Condition application order is basically random so removal may get rid of the best or the worst condition. The player simply has no control over it.

lunyboy.8672:

All professions have skills and traits that remove conditions, some do have more than others, and some have more convenient ones than others. But it is still there.

and? Some classes/builds simply cannot remove condis faster than they can be applied.

lunyboy.8672:

“..Low HP Pools…” Stack vitality. I stack toughness to combat your direct damage.

Vit is only good at the start of a fight. Once the initial vit is gone, it has no advantage and condi bunker builds are designed for longer fights.

lunyboy.8672:

“..apply conditions in rapid fire…” Learn their skills, my grenades show a red circle and hang in the air for a few seconds. I learned skills from most other professions so I could know when to dodge out of them.

You are talking about a very specific build of a single class. Condi necros are very hard counter right now without A LOT of condi removal which does compromise the viability of many builds.

lunyboy.8672:

“At least with direct damage you know big damage = squishy” Not really. What Warriors call “big damage” is damage I have never seen myself. I have 0 skills that hit like 100 blades. Perhaps it would be enough to run some PVT pieces, lose some DPS for survivability?

Hundred blades is a 4 second root skill that only works well with timed interrupts. Even then it is mitigated by toughness, requires melee range, takes 4 full seconds to deliver its damage, stun breakers usually free a player from it and it is easily interrupted. Contrast to a full set of conditions from a necro in that same 4 seconds… the DPS is going to be surprising similar. Same with a engi dropping 25 stacks on condi. Only one way to mitigate that damage and the player better hope it isn’t on cool down.

lunyboy.8672:

“Going bunker or control should come at the cost of DPS not increase it as it is doing in some cases.” It does, at least for my profession. I don’t hit like a truck when I do ANYTHING. My pistol #1 hits for (considerably) less than the retaliation that is procs. For that matter, my Grenade #1 hits for less than retal does back to me.

It seems we are not talking about your DD… we are talking about runes that allow your class and other classes ability to stack condition. The speed at which an engi can stack condition when built for is shocking. I cannot get near one with that build without seeing 5+ stacks practically the entire fight even with decent condi removal.

Straegen.2938:

It seems we are not talking about your DD… we are talking about runes that allow your class and other classes ability to stack condition. The speed at which an engi can stack condition when built for is shocking. I cannot get near one with that build without seeing 5+ stacks practically the entire fight even with decent condi removal.

If only you had something that you could use at range, while keeping your target crippled (with a pet maybe?) and with that tool, you could throw sticks at a high rate of speed toward me while kiting out of range of my CC…

It could to be a piece of wood maybe with a string tied to it… any thoughts?

How about we nerf perplexity runes, and buff Mesmer’s confusion. It is a Mesmer condition after all.

Rskin.4901:

How about we nerf perplexity runes, and buff Mesmer’s confusion. It is a Mesmer condition after all.

+25

lunyboy.8672:

If only you had something that you could use at range, while keeping your target crippled (with a pet maybe?) and with that tool, you could throw sticks at a high rate of speed toward me while kiting out of range of my CC…

It could to be a piece of wood maybe with a string tied to it… any thoughts?

What are you talking about? I don’t main a ranger anymore… my ranged attack hits at max 900. Even if I still played my ranger, you cannot seriously consider a bow ranger a threat on a decently built engi. Also doesn’t grenade have a 1200 range… guess you are running bomb?

Back to the original conversation… the runes are NOT just an engi thing. Warriors, mesmers and any class that has decent interrupts make this rune set very powerful. So powerful players are retooling just for it. Try to kite a warrior and let me know how it goes.

Straegen.2938:

lunyboy.8672:

If only you had something that you could use at range, while keeping your target crippled (with a pet maybe?) and with that tool, you could throw sticks at a high rate of speed toward me while kiting out of range of my CC…

It could to be a piece of wood maybe with a string tied to it… any thoughts?

What are you talking about? I don’t main a ranger anymore… my ranged attack hits at max 900. Even if I still played my ranger, you cannot seriously consider a bow ranger a threat on a decently built engi. Also doesn’t grenade have a 1200 range… guess you are running bomb?

Back to the original conversation… the runes are NOT just an engi thing. Warriors, mesmers and any class that has decent interrupts make this rune set very powerful. So powerful players are retooling just for it. Try to kite a warrior and let me know how it goes.

1.2k untraited.
1.5k when traited.
If you’re an eng and using nades you have it untraited or you’re doing it wrong.

lunyboy.8672:

Straegen.2938:

lunyboy.8672:

Conditions can be cleansed, most professions have some form of cleanse that syncs nicely with popular builds. You may have to sacrifice some dps for it, but most of these “condi-tanks” have sacrificed for their build as well.

Most classes do not have a cleanse. Most do have multiple condition removal but the conditions that are removed are seemingly random. Condi builds typically apply multiple conditions and there are almost a dozen different conditions. A player removing conditions better hope it removes the best ones. Condi builds also apply conditions in rapid fire so as soon as they are gone they show right back up.

I also don’t think condi damage itself is a problem but being coupled with defensive skills on bunker style builds makes it problematic for a lot of classes particularly those with low HP pools. At least with direct damage you know big damage = squishy. Going bunker or control should come at the cost of DPS not increase it as it is doing in some cases.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_removal#Skills_that_remove_conditions

From the wiki:
“the most recently applied condition or conditions will be removed first.”

From the game:

Condition application rotation: 4 stacks 5sec bleed -> 4sec chill -> 5 stacks 6sec confusion.

Single removal via cleansing water, proccing on regeneration application(soothing disruption + elemental attunement).

Removal results:
Water attunement: 4x confusion, 1x chill
Armor of earth: 2x bleed, 2x confusion
Lightning flash: 4x bleed
Mist form: 1x confusion, 1x bleed

According to the wiki, confusion should have been the condition removed every single time.
Condition removal is NOT lifo (last in, first out). It is random (or at least has a major RNG factor) and seems to favor stacked conditions. Though I assume based on past tests that some conditions tend to be removed more often (higher priority) overall.
When you use a removal you simply do not know which condition is going to be removed. You can not plan your removals or make strategic use of them, just hope it removes the condition you like to be removed. That’s an issue that should have been adressed by ANet a long time ago, but I guess it’s fine as long as hardly anyone complains about it since few people know.

I really hope these are fixed in the next patch. Otherwise, I guess everyone will just roll hammer warr/guards for zergs, and run these with some interrupt build for roaming. These are pretty unbeatable and don’t really take a lot skill to stack confusion up to 20-25, which is just instant death (even on a heal).

The current implementation of Runes of Perplexity seems out of balance with both other superior rune sets and other skills and traits that apply the confusion condition.

Sure, they have potential counters just like other conditions and players could probably just learn to live with them, but it’s really odd that the best application of confusion in the game, by far, comes from a rune bonus instead of a skill or trait.

Stice.5204:

The current implementation of Runes of Perplexity seems out of balance with both other superior rune sets and other skills and traits that apply the confusion condition.

Sure, they have potential counters just like other conditions, but something is clearly off here, balance-wise.

Are they off balance or do people need time to learn how to deal with them?

1. they are mostly single target.
2. learn to take note of the conditions on you. cleanse them and what can he do to you.

Theftwind.8976:

Stice.5204:

The current implementation of Runes of Perplexity seems out of balance with both other superior rune sets and other skills and traits that apply the confusion condition.

Sure, they have potential counters just like other conditions, but something is clearly off here, balance-wise.

Are they off balance or do people need time to learn how to deal with them?

They are imbalanced when compared to the other rune sets.

As I said before… these are build defining runes. No other rune set is like that.

Theftwind.8976:

Stice.5204:

The current implementation of Runes of Perplexity seems out of balance with both other superior rune sets and other skills and traits that apply the confusion condition.

Sure, they have potential counters just like other conditions, but something is clearly off here, balance-wise.

Are they off balance or do people need time to learn how to deal with them?

As I said in the post, they’re off balance.

Go to the wiki and look at other 6th rune bonuses. Things like “+5% damage against targets below 50% health” and “Gain one stack of might for 20 seconds when using your heal skill.” Those sort of things are clearly not on the same level of power as Runes of Perplexity, which can literally do most of the work in killing a target just by themselves.

Runes of Perplexity are out of balance with other runes, whether players could learn to deal with them or not.

Theftwind.8976:

Stice.5204:

The current implementation of Runes of Perplexity seems out of balance with both other superior rune sets and other skills and traits that apply the confusion condition.

Sure, they have potential counters just like other conditions, but something is clearly off here, balance-wise.

Are they off balance or do people need time to learn how to deal with them?

A 10second Confusion on every interupt, compared to a 5sec confusion (max any player ability gives) on a cooldown of 15sec or more.

That is just a 6p bonus. Lets compare to other 6p.

Monk: You and everyone near you gets Aegis (1 block) when you use your Elite (thats several minutes cooldown)

Baelfire: 5% chance when hit to cause a Firenova. 30sec cooldown.

Balthazar: When you use a heal skill, nearby enemies are burned for 3seconds, 10sec cooldown (heal skills are generally 20+sec anyway)

Nightmare: 5% chance to cause Fear(1sec) when hit. 90sec cooldown.

Tormenting: 2stacks of Aoe torment when using a Heal (20sec cooldown)

These are just randomly selected from the wiki page. 5 stacks of Confusion for 10seconds with NO internal cooldown is far above and beyond any other 6p bonus. Even if it requires an interupt, of which we know several professions/builds have a lot on fairly low cooldown.

Silinsar.6298:

From the game:

Condition application rotation: 4 stacks 5sec bleed -> 4sec chill -> 5 stacks 6sec confusion.

Single removal via cleansing water, proccing on regeneration application(soothing disruption + elemental attunement).

Removal results:
Water attunement: 4x confusion, 1x chill
Armor of earth: 2x bleed, 2x confusion
Lightning flash: 4x bleed
Mist form: 1x confusion, 1x bleed

According to the wiki, confusion should have been the condition removed every single time.
Condition removal is NOT lifo (last in, first out). It is random (or at least has a major RNG factor) and seems to favor stacked conditions. Though I assume based on past tests that some conditions tend to be removed more often (higher priority) overall.
When you use a removal you simply do not know which condition is going to be removed. You can not plan your removals or make strategic use of them, just hope it removes the condition you like to be removed. That’s an issue that should have been adressed by ANet a long time ago, but I guess it’s fine as long as hardly anyone complains about it since few people know.

I was testing the removal orders the other day wasn’t fully indepth but I saw a post explaining that bleed becomes priorty because it is refreshed I had never truly paid attention so I thought he was saying that bleed jumps to first priority for removal if you refresh it but that isnt the case.

From my testing if you have a scenario:

2 bleed, blind, poison, chill are applied at the same time the lifo order is random.

If we assume bleed is last to be removed as long as bleed isn’t refreshed and no other conditions are applied then bleed stays at last priorty.

If however 1 of the other conditions expires but is reapplied and bleed is refreshed to (3) stacks of bleed it will stay ahead of that condition just reapplied.

To try to keep bleed as the lowest priorty you would basically have to not apply bleeds anymore and wait for the icon to expire then reapply bleeds again after you laid down cover conditions. The problem with trying to do this is that there are so many bleed modifiers in condi builds either with sigils, traits, or just on regular attacks you would have to have periods that you wouldn’t attack.

I’m assuming the same is true for all intensity stacking conditions. So intensity stacking conditions in removal queue don’t make it jump ahead or behind any conditions if it is refreshed it just leaves it in its current place.

Jinks.2057:

People are still defending these runes LOL

Need to delete them from game.

I still wondering why they’ve been implemented in the 1st place tbh, who felt the need of them??

Rennoko.5731:

Let me show you what these runes should have looked like if they tailored them after existing runes.

(1): +28 Condition Damage
(2): 15% Confusion Duration
(3): +55 Condition Damage
(4): 5% chance to cause Confusion (3 stacks) when hit (5 second cooldown).
(5): +100 Condition Damage
(6): Causes 5 seconds of Confusion (5 stacks) on interrupt. (20 second cooldown)

Trust me, if it gets changed to that, NO one will be using it. They are ONLY used for the 4/6 and 6/6 remove them and replace them with something like this and EVERYONE will stop using them.

Thats the kind of over, rune breaking nerf that i would expect from Anet – why are you trying to help them for?

The ONLY thing that needs to change is the 6/6 Change that to 25% confusion Damage increase and i think that would be fine, of course maybe get around to actually fixing the duration as well

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Trust me, if it gets changed to that, NO one will be using it. They are ONLY used for the 4/6 and 6/6 remove them and replace them with something like this and EVERYONE will stop using them.

Thats the kind of over, rune breaking nerf that i would expect from Anet – why are you trying to help them for?

The ONLY thing that needs to change is the 6/6 Change that to 25% confusion Damage increase and i think that would be fine, of course maybe get around to actually fixing the duration as well

I don’t think rennoko’s 6/6 suggestion is a overnerf. The duration on the 6/6 is 10 seconds base.

You can still keep up 5 stacks you just would have to spec for 100% duration which might cause you to have to sacrifice points somewhere else and you would have to intelligently be aware of when the 6/6 proc is about to expire so you could reapply with a interrupt. The only class that would be able to get the 100% confusion duration without much sacrifice would be a mesmer with master of misdirection trait.

If we assume +40% food and full 6/6 with Rennoko’s suggestion you would be at 15 secs on interrupt which is still decent. So you would need 45% duration to get to 100% even if you stayed at 55% confusion duration that would still be better than any other condition rune set dps wise(assuming your enemy presses a few buttons with confusion on him) A mesmer with master of misdirection trait would need just 12% to get to 100% duration.

Okay so I finally came across a Warrior using this rune set. The most stacks I had put on me was 21 from the use of just two skills. That’s kind of crazy, and I can’t imagine this is what Anet had in mind when introducing the rune set. I joked about it previously, but I can’t help but think that 6/6 was meant to be a Grandmaster Mesmer interrupt trait. Even if it was, I’d still put a ICD of at least 10-15 seconds on it similarly to Furious Interruption.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Rennoko.5731:

Let me show you what these runes should have looked like if they tailored them after existing runes.

(1): +28 Condition Damage
(2): 15% Confusion Duration
(3): +55 Condition Damage
(4): 5% chance to cause Confusion (3 stacks) when hit (5 second cooldown).
(5): +100 Condition Damage
(6): Causes 5 seconds of Confusion (5 stacks) on interrupt. (20 second cooldown)

Trust me, if it gets changed to that, NO one will be using it. They are ONLY used for the 4/6 and 6/6 remove them and replace them with something like this and EVERYONE will stop using them.

Thats the kind of over, rune breaking nerf that i would expect from Anet – why are you trying to help them for?

The ONLY thing that needs to change is the 6/6 Change that to 25% confusion Damage increase and i think that would be fine, of course maybe get around to actually fixing the duration as well

I think you missed the point of my post. I am not saying that change would make the runes still universally viable, (Though I personally would use them if fear caused interrupt with the above changes). They would become situationally dependent on the interrupt part of the rune set, which is how it SHOULD HAVE been designed.

Rewarding someone for landing an interrupt – good. Rewarding someone for auto attacking? Not good. As it stands right now, 5/6 on this set beats the pants off any other condition rune set. If you have interrupts, 6/6 beats the pants off and then over to the neighbors house of any condition rune set. Even if you add an internal cooldown it still owns the face off anything in game right now.

I was simply saying if you look at the huge number of rune sets out there, and what 4 and 6 bonuses they give, my suggested change is very much in-line with those. There are right now dozens of completely unused rune sets. Even with my suggested change, this set would still be FAR more heavily used than others.

They need to revisit all the poorly itemized rune sets in the future, but the answer is not to make one massively powerful set, and then keep adding new powerful sets, while ignoring the existing never used rune sets.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Rennoko.5731:

Let me show you what these runes should have looked like if they tailored them after existing runes.

(1): +28 Condition Damage
(2): 15% Confusion Duration
(3): +55 Condition Damage
(4): 5% chance to cause Confusion (3 stacks) when hit (5 second cooldown).
(5): +100 Condition Damage
(6): Causes 5 seconds of Confusion (5 stacks) on interrupt. (20 second cooldown)

Trust me, if it gets changed to that, NO one will be using it. They are ONLY used for the 4/6 and 6/6 remove them and replace them with something like this and EVERYONE will stop using them.

Thats the kind of over, rune breaking nerf that i would expect from Anet – why are you trying to help them for?

The ONLY thing that needs to change is the 6/6 Change that to 25% confusion Damage increase and i think that would be fine, of course maybe get around to actually fixing the duration as well

So what you are saying is that if the runes are not grossly OP then they are not worth using. All the other runes are within those boundaries of 20-90 sec internal cd. 5 stacks 30 second cd would be well within the boundaries of what other runes are.

Imagine if you summoned a Rock Dog on every CC that hit you… now that would be on par with the stupidity of the Perpexity runes. You’d have a dog army in no time. It still wouldn’t be as powerful as the Perpexity runes.

Umm, Rock Dog Army would be incredibly powerful, So much more then Perplexity. Not only would they eat hits constantly meant for the person, They actually do a lot of damage.

In comparison to other Runes, they’re not nearly as overpowered as people think.

There are plenty of 6 Point ability runes that are very good to have, Thing is, Most of them are for specific Builds and Most of the Condition Ones are awful.

Which Condition Runes are actually used for their 6 point? Undead and Necromancer, Undead is for pretty much everyone with Rabid, and Necro is basically for Necros and the fear duration..Other then that, Most of every other Rune set in the game that is Condition Damage is pretty awful.

Instead people take Condition Runes to stack Condition Duration, like Bleeds.

Which Power ones are used for 6 Points?

Hoelbrak
Mesmer
Scholar

precision ones?

Lyssa (Which is incredibly Powerful, Anyone who thinks it isn’t is kidding themselves)
Thief
Ranger (This is more for Rangers)
Rata Sum (I see this one alot)

Toughness
Dolyak
Forge (Also Incredibly Powerful)
Melandru (Incredibly Powerful, Build Defining)

Vitality
This one is only one with crappier runes then Condition, You basically have Soldier, and that’s it.

Healing Power has
Dwyana (Very Powerful)
Grove (Very Annoying)
Altruism (Build Defining)

Xsorus.2507:

In comparison to other Runes, they’re not nearly as overpowered as people think.

There are plenty of 6 Point ability runes that are very good to have, Thing is, Most of them are for specific Builds and Most of the Condition Ones are awful.

None of the runes listed buff a character much more than 10%. Perplexity without any additional condi bonuses can hit for 80 * stacks. That pops after every skill, dodge or triggered action. The damage scales 10 points per stack for every 133 in condition damage.

The big problem reveals itself on how and who applies it… this damage is often passively applied coming from mostly hardened builds such as bunker engis or bunker guardians. Even big HP pool warriors can afford to go more bunker without losing much in the DPS department.

Relentliss.2170:

So what you are saying is that if the runes are not grossly OP then they are not worth using. All the other runes are within those boundaries of 20-90 sec internal cd. 5 stacks 30 second cd would be well within the boundaries of what other runes are.

Imagine if you summoned a Rock Dog on every CC that hit you… now that would be on par with the stupidity of the Perpexity runes. You’d have a dog army in no time. It still wouldn’t be as powerful as the Perpexity runes.

Did i say that? No, Currently its the 6/6 that is the issue, not wrong with 4/6 or any of the other parts. adding to long of a cool down with such a short duration isnt the way to go, sure you can go on about the fact you could get 10seconds if you go for food and traits and maybe the rune if they ever decide to fix the duration not being added.

30% Trait, 40% food that is 70% so you could get to 100% when the rune set is fixed. But would it actually be WORTH doing? I would take a 25% Confusion Damage as the 6/6 along with the 15% duration increase it currently has.

I agree that ALL the rune sets need to be looked at some of them just dont seem to be used due to the 6/6 being a bit well rubbish. Though knowing Anet, they will nerf this into uselessness and buff all others to the point they are all insanely overpowered haha