Guild Wars 2

What is the reasoning behind this change? Perplexity now has 2 passive procs on confusion instead of 1, on getting hit and on heal. I also haven’t tested the new effect yet but the wording implies that the 6th effect gives AOE confusion around the user. This change is going to make more condi builds take perplexity since you don’t have to spec for interrupt anymore, any condi build can use it effectively as long as you have a short cd heal. No counterplay anymore since cannot be mitigated with stability and what little skill the rune requires from the player is now completely gone.

A small nerf to condi interrupt builds only IF the enemy doesn’t have high stab uptime and if it’s 1v1. A buff to perplexity rune in any fight that isn’t 1v1, against any opponent that has good stability and any non-interrupt condi builds while requiring even less skill. Perplexity is now the best rune to use for ALL condi builds rather than just interrupt condi builds.

It is a pretty big nerf at least to current meta builds. Thieves and mesmers had remote interrupts which were easily spammable within the cool down window. Now that it is on the heal a player has to weigh the need for a heal vs applying 3 stacks of condi. I tried it on both my condi mesmer and my condi thief and their DPS output was significantly cut.

I wish it had been attached to the elite skill rather than the heal. Longer cooldown but more useful offensively.

Mantra heal and withdraw

Straegen.2938:

It is a pretty big nerf

Cmon, you must be joking. If you crash a kid with a plane, but “nerf” it down to a truck its still overpowered as hell. Guess how many revenants using condi will be using this kitten now due to the 2 heals.

Its not a nerf, the runes went from extremly overpowered mesmer/thief usage to highly overpowered every-condi kitten class usage.

Give toughness stats defense for condis and its fixed, but this way its still freecasting.

Is it really a nerf to mesmers? Seems to me its still going to be powerful.

Aury.1367:

Cmon, you must be joking. If you crash a kid with a plane, but “nerf” it down to a truck its still overpowered as hell. Guess how many revenants using condi will be using this kitten now due to the 2 heals.

I’m pretty sure it have a icd, so I don’t see how having 2 heals is a big advantage on this. If that don’t have a icd, I could just run healing mantra with harmonious mantras trait and spam 3 heals on top of my enemies.

morrolan.9608:

Is it really a nerf to mesmers? Seems to me its still going to be powerful.

It’s a question of managing how you use your healing spell. Mesmers and thieves could simply abuse headshot/power block to keep interupting you without having to use their healing spell which can get them out of a sticky situation. While it will be easier to apply more confusions now, if you fail to end your enemy, you’ll be in a situation where you could need your healing skill and you have it on cooldown because you used it offensively.

They were overtuned before when compared to any other condition rune. I think they in a good place now.

good place now? Before it was really nice for mesmers and thieves. Now its OP for everyone. Lets nerf condi, beginning with perplexity runes. WHOOPS we boosted it accidently. Go WvW, you will see what I’m talking about

It was far more powerful for Mesmers and Thieves before this change. I ran it all last night in roaming and duels on both and it is now a marginal rune set.

Three stacks of Condi after a heal in a very small AoE area leaves the set mostly useless for a thief. Withdrawl is the only instant heal but it goes off where the thief rolls back to. Any other heal the thief has is near a 1s activation and means the thief has to be right next to whatever is attacking it unable to evade which is generally a bad place to be for a squishy class.

Mesmers got off a little better since they can plan out that heal offensively easier but it is still a straight up nerf to shatter builds that applied 5 stacks on easily spammable condi shatters.

Other classes have very little access to confusion and Plex only lenthens confusion duration and not other conditions. The rune set is mostly a waste on classes that don’t have access to confusion application beyond their heal.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZQQNAoaVn8lCtNhVuBOPBsPhFkiy7Fuh5jrBCgFYO+r/9H-w

I’m sure some of your are familiar with this cancer. This is my own variant of it, I might play it for a few days before getting bored and stop playing wvw until we get a viable interrupt build. I do not consider impacting disruption viable because I need escapist’s absolution. Pressure striking just isn’t good enough by itself in an interrupt condi build, too little reward for too much resources and effort.

I left the gear blank and food buffs blank because its just standard koi cake with traiblazer/dire. Rune is perplexity ofc. You can get permastealth just by BP and using leap finisher on dodge and using HS when you don’t have enough endurance. I can achieve perma stealth without using stealth on steal and vigor on steal so you can get perma stealth ooc as well. You have steal, confusion on heal and pain inverter to cause 11 stacks of confusion and none of it will reveal you from stealth with 6 confusion stacks being aoe. You use needle trap in conjuntion with caltrops if enemy activates needle trap and gets immobilized. Use thieves guild to force enemy to attack/activate defensive skills while having 11 stacks of confusion or risk getting hit by thieves guild.

While similar to trapper condi thief, it does not use rune of trapper because in my opinion you don’t need the stealth on trap to stay in perma stealth and superspeed is useless when you have 50% movement speed in stealth. This is a permastealth condi build and needle trap is just one of the ways to put condi on someone without breaking stealth so it would be inappropriate to call this a trapper thief build. Aoe pressure is definitely much better than regular trapper thief. Standard trapper thief might only have caltrops or no aoe condi at all. This has caltrops, 3 stacks of confusion on a 16 sec cd and another 3 stacks of confusion on 30 sec cd.

Disclaimer: I have not tried out this build in “actual combat”. I might never try it out because it looks so boring and cheesy. That such a build exists in the game that can stack 11 confusion from stealth is enough indication that anet is terrible at balancing and is the reason i quit gw2 2 years ago (I just came back 2-3 months ago to try out HoT and elite specs). It also seems every patch anet removes a pvp amulet which completely destroys builds rather than toning it down. I’m scared of the balancing team after looking at what happened to eles and scrappers and I play neither of those classes. Scrappers needed small nerfs but were overnerfed. They nerfed the effects of passive play but does not buff/add the effects of active play. Scrapper will still be as passive as before but just straight up weaker. Ele changes are the worst changes i’ve ever seen in any gw2 patch notes and I could write an essay on it.

Requires asura tho… Dat pain inverter…

Jeknar.6184:

Requires asura tho… Dat pain inverter…

There are only a limited number of ways to apply condi while in stealth so you kinda need pain inverter even though racial skills are generally weaker.

Jeknar.6184:

Requires asura tho… Dat pain inverter…

That build is toast against a decent player. No stun break, very limited condi removal, uses Bound instead of Lotus, doesn’t use Pressure Striking, etc.

MilkCarton.4087:

Jeknar.6184:

Requires asura tho… Dat pain inverter…

There are only a limited number of ways to apply condi while in stealth so you kinda need pain inverter even though racial skills are generally weaker.

Oh wait, that don’t reveal you?

Jeknar.6184:

MilkCarton.4087:

Jeknar.6184:

Requires asura tho… Dat pain inverter…

There are only a limited number of ways to apply condi while in stealth so you kinda need pain inverter even though racial skills are generally weaker.

Oh wait, that don’t reveal you?

It doesn’t have a direct damage component listed so I assume it doesn’t reveal.

Well, i can problably test that with my human thief and prayer to lyssa (give a random condi to enemy, deals no dmg). The principle must be the same.

Straegen.2938:

Jeknar.6184:

Requires asura tho… Dat pain inverter…

That build is toast against a decent player. No stun break, very limited condi removal, uses Bound instead of Lotus, doesn’t use Pressure Striking, etc.

You’re not supposed to use any of those in the standard trapper thief build. If you get cced while in stealth 100% then that’s really your fault. You have 100% stealth and you have shadow’s embrace, not to mention how are people going to put the condis on you in the first place. No perma stealth trapper thief ever uses lotus or pressure striking for good reason.

If you want all the stuff you listed, you play a different build like condi d/d.

MilkCarton.4087:

Jeknar.6184:

MilkCarton.4087:

Jeknar.6184:

Requires asura tho… Dat pain inverter…

There are only a limited number of ways to apply condi while in stealth so you kinda need pain inverter even though racial skills are generally weaker.

Oh wait, that don’t reveal you?

It doesn’t have a direct damage component listed so I assume it doesn’t reveal.

Well, the test with prayer to lyssa worked. Target got poisoned and reveal didn’t triggered. Pain inverter should have the same effect.

MilkCarton.4087:

You’re not supposed to use any of those in the standard trapper thief build. If you get cced while in stealth 100% then that’s really your fault. You have 100% stealth and you have shadow’s embrace, not to mention how are people going to put the condis on you in the first place. No perma stealth trapper thief ever uses lotus or pressure striking for good reason.

I thought Pain Inverter revealed on Retaliation application which threw me off of the trapper variant of the build.

Straegen.2938:

MilkCarton.4087:

You’re not supposed to use any of those in the standard trapper thief build. If you get cced while in stealth 100% then that’s really your fault. You have 100% stealth and you have shadow’s embrace, not to mention how are people going to put the condis on you in the first place. No perma stealth trapper thief ever uses lotus or pressure striking for good reason.

I thought Pain Inverter revealed on Retaliation application which threw me off of the trapper variant of the build.

I didn’t test it yet but I used to play a pu mesmer build 2 years ago with decent amount of retal but I never noticed getting accidentally revealed. I’m going to say that it doesn’t reveal you unless they changed something about retal in the last 2 years. Some scrappers I fight also have perma retal but they never get revealed using stealth gyro even when I hit them.

Unless they changed recently, retal dmg does not reveal. My scrapper have perma retal and never got revealed because of it.

Retal doesn’t reveal.

I’d wish they nerfed the passive proc on perplex runes, too, though. That gave me more trouble than the interrupts often did. Good to see the runes getting nerfed after years of blatant dominance. Still not fixing dire/TB, though.

I was hoping they’ve have also nerfed durability runes. Too bad, really.

DeceiverX.8361:

Retal doesn’t reveal.

I’d wish they nerfed the passive proc on perplex runes, too, though. That gave me more trouble than the interrupts often did. Good to see the runes getting nerfed after years of blatant dominance. Still not fixing dire/TB, though.

I was hoping they’ve have also nerfed durability runes. Too bad, really.

I would rather they keep the 5 confusion on interrupt and nerf the passive proc on hit to 1 stack of confusion from 3. Or maybe nerf the confusion duration bonus and condi damage bonus. Any one of those is better than this garbage. This isn’t really a nerf, they just changed how the rune completely works so that it doesn’t work at all with some builds anymore but also makes the rune work with builds that it didn’t work with previously. In this case, condi interrupt builds got nerfed but other condi builds that stays in melee range and stealth-heavy condi builds gets buffed (like the perma stealth condi build I just posted). I’m not going to play that build though because it’s too boring for me. I posted it to show that they failed at nerfing perplex.

MilkCarton.4087:

DeceiverX.8361:

Retal doesn’t reveal.

I’d wish they nerfed the passive proc on perplex runes, too, though. That gave me more trouble than the interrupts often did. Good to see the runes getting nerfed after years of blatant dominance. Still not fixing dire/TB, though.

I was hoping they’ve have also nerfed durability runes. Too bad, really.

I would rather they keep the 5 confusion on interrupt and nerf the passive proc on hit to 1 stack of confusion from 3. Or maybe nerf the confusion duration bonus and condi damage bonus. Any one of those is better than this garbage. This isn’t really a nerf, they just changed how the rune completely works so that it doesn’t work at all with some builds anymore but also makes the rune work with builds that it didn’t work with previously. In this case, condi interrupt builds got nerfed but other condi builds that stays in melee range and stealth-heavy condi builds gets buffed (like the perma stealth condi build I just posted). I’m not going to play that build though because it’s too boring for me. I posted it to show that they failed at nerfing perplex.

Yeah this would at least keep the playstyle more active as opposed to the completely passive playstyle of the change. One can only think they made this change cause of casual players.

Honestly, everything been about passive gain lately…

Aury.1367:

good place now? Before it was really nice for mesmers and thieves. Now its OP for everyone. Lets nerf condi, beginning with perplexity runes. WHOOPS we boosted it accidently. Go WvW, you will see what I’m talking about

These types of Runes already exist. Balthazar applies burn on a heal. Tormenting applies two stacks of torment on a heal. The reason people did not use them to ang great degree is half the time the bonus would go to waste, Many heal when fleeing from a foe or after a dodge and at range. Healing right next to an opponet can have them interrupt you with a number of attack types.

Further to that there no reason a Condition Elementalist as example would go for 35 percent bonush duration on confusion when they only have the runes as a source. this would hurt their fire durations. Smae too with a Guardian. If a Guardina wanted a condition on heal proc why not fire with that Balthazar which would help their other fre sources?

The reason this was popular with Thives and Mesmers was that it could be applied at range, it would not compromise their heal (healing just to apply a condition is silly) and it would help other sources of confusion duration wise.

babazhook.6805:

Aury.1367:

good place now? Before it was really nice for mesmers and thieves. Now its OP for everyone. Lets nerf condi, beginning with perplexity runes. WHOOPS we boosted it accidently. Go WvW, you will see what I’m talking about

These types of Runes already exist. Balthazar applies burn on a heal. Tormenting applies two stacks of torment on a heal. The reason people did not use them to ang great degree is half the time the bonus would go to waste, Many heal when fleeing from a foe or after a dodge and at range. Healing right next to an opponet can have them interrupt you with a number of attack types.

Further to that there no reason a Condition Elementalist as example would go for 35 percent bonush duration on confusion when they only have the runes as a source. this would hurt their fire durations. Smae too with a Guardian. If a Guardina wanted a condition on heal proc why not fire with that Balthazar which would help their other fre sources?

The reason this was popular with Thives and Mesmers was that it could be applied at range, it would not compromise their heal (healing just to apply a condition is silly) and it would help other sources of confusion duration wise.

Maybe no one uses balthazar because the 6th effect is underwhelming. 1 stack of burn for 3 secs? no thanks. It also benefits eles and guard the most which we all know suck at condis.

Superior rune of tormenting seems pretty expensive on the TP. Are you sure no ones using it? And perplexity still has that passive proc on hit while the other runes don’t have it. I don’t find the confusion on interrupt to be reliable either, too many builds I fight have good access to stability. I use this rune with a thief that’s not using pistol offhand either so I don’t have the luxury of spamming dazes (not that it’s a good idea in the first place). It feels rewarding to interrupt a heal or someone running away with a movement skill and apply 5 stacks of confusion + 3 stacks of torment from pressure striking.

This is kinda the same concept as the cleric amulet removal. Rather than just nerfing the heal in pvp only, they decided to take out cleric completely which destroys an entire build (and other non meta builds as well).

MilkCarton.4087:

babazhook.6805:

Aury.1367:

good place now? Before it was really nice for mesmers and thieves. Now its OP for everyone. Lets nerf condi, beginning with perplexity runes. WHOOPS we boosted it accidently. Go WvW, you will see what I’m talking about

These types of Runes already exist. Balthazar applies burn on a heal. Tormenting applies two stacks of torment on a heal. The reason people did not use them to ang great degree is half the time the bonus would go to waste, Many heal when fleeing from a foe or after a dodge and at range. Healing right next to an opponet can have them interrupt you with a number of attack types.

Further to that there no reason a Condition Elementalist as example would go for 35 percent bonush duration on confusion when they only have the runes as a source. this would hurt their fire durations. Smae too with a Guardian. If a Guardina wanted a condition on heal proc why not fire with that Balthazar which would help their other fre sources?

The reason this was popular with Thieves and Mesmers was that it could be applied at range, it would not compromise their heal (healing just to apply a condition is silly) and it would help other sources of confusion duration wise.

Maybe no one uses balthazar because the 6th effect is underwhelming. 1 stack of burn for 3 secs? no thanks. It also benefits eles and guard the most which we all know suck at condis.

Superior rune of tormenting seems pretty expensive on the TP. Are you sure no ones using it? And perplexity still has that passive proc on hit while the other runes don’t have it.

This is kinda the same concept as the cleric amulet removal. Rather than just nerfing the heal in pvp only, they decided to take out cleric completely which destroys an entire build (and other non meta builds as well).

I stack of Burn at maximum duration is going to do a whole lot of damage as burning base does a lot more damage then does confusion. 1 stack of burn is 131 base compared to 10 for confusion. Added to that the bonus for more condition ttraining is over twice that of confusion.

The Elemetalist also has multiple benefits to having burning on a foe in their traits with things like burning rage. They want as high an uptime on burn as possible. Guardians also have traits that favor having burn on an enemy as do warrior Zerkers.

The Guardian also as traits that applies bonuses when a foe is burning.

A Revenants traitlines favors torment as a condition and they are far better off extending torment durations than just adding a few stacks of confusion and wasting an opportunity at 35 percent more for torment. There a trait that applies poison everytime they apply Torment. So that heal using Runes of Tormenting will add torment, extend the durations and add Poison.

The poster Aury claimed this a boost to perplexity rune as now “all other classes will use them”. I am pointing out the fact these types of runes already exist and favor different professions yet are hardly OP. If en ele or guardian make “lousy condition builds” as you claim, than they are hardly going to take these runes.

Now to your original post where you made this claim.

>>A small nerf to condi interrupt builds only IF the enemy doesn’t have high stab uptime and if it’s 1v1. A buff to perplexity rune in any fight that isn’t 1v1, against any opponent that has good stability and any non-interrupt condi builds while requiring even less skill. Perplexity is now the best rune to use for ALL condi builds rather than just interrupt condi builds.

It is not the best for all condition builds. it not the best for the Ele or guardian going conditions . It not the best choice for a Revenant.It not the best choice for en Engineer going conditions, nor a thief or ranger. The only “best choice” i see is the mesmer and maybe some versions of a warrior condition build.

babazhook.6805:

It is not the best for all condition builds. it not the best for the Ele or guardian going conditions . It not the best choice for a Revenant.It not the best choice for en Engineer going conditions, nor a thief or ranger. The only “best choice” i see is the mesmer and maybe some versions of a warrior condition build.

I never see condi ele, guard, ranger or engi in wvw. Maybe i’ve seen like 1 hybrid at most but can’t tell for sure. They don’t seem to viable no matter what rune you use. In my opinion, it’s still the best rune for thief, mesmer and warrior. I also value more condition coverage rather than just stacks and duration so I think it would be a decent choice for revenant since revs don’t really have a way to get confusion. Confusion is rather difficult to get unless you’re a mesmer. If duration is the only thing that matters then all condi thief should take superior rune of krait. Also, you can’t compare base burning and confusion damage. Most of the damage from confusion comes from activating skills. You can still get a lot out of perplex runes, except you have to ditch interrupt builds and you use that to build around something else that’s not interrupt like more evades, more stealth, more healing etc. Right off the top of my head, I can change a utility slot in my condi d/d build to use shadow refuge for more stealth or signet of agility for more dodges. I’m always near my opponent anyway since DB pretty much requires you to stick to opponents so I will have no problem with perplex rune’s range. I can also change one of my sigils from boonstealing on interrupt to something else since I can boonsteal with bountiful theft rather than take pressure striking. So yea, i just came up with 2 condi thief builds that still benefit from perplex runes that is not weaker than my original build. However, both builds are a lot more boring than my original build and that sucks.

Maybe it’s not the best choice for every condi build but it’s a more attractive choice after the patch for more condi builds since you don’t have to spec for interrupts. Eles, engis and all those other classes you listed didn’t use perplex before the patch. Pre-patch, only thief, mesmer and war uses perplex and not all condi thief uses perplex either. There might be more builds that use perplex post-patch is all im saying but all interrupt based builds will have to adapt their builds into something more….cheesy (and boring).

There quite a few Condi rangers in game. There will also be more Condi engineers in my opinion.

I expect we will see more Condi mesmers and this will be the go to rune for many of them.

It my opinion the use of these runes will drop overall and not increase. My evidence of that is the price at trading post showing a significant drop since the patch. Since patch the number of sells jumps and the number of buys is dropping. There might be a spike in purchases as people try them and that heal but I expect prices will erode after they recognize using a heal for a condition application as not as good or as effective as it sounds.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNApeUnMdAlkidhAWhAElileAzIA0CXaI1geQ3796md/uA-TVCHABhpJggTAAQK/iTPwTKBp/BAUo6P6u/AAHBAA-w

This change ruined my perplexity warrior I wish if they wanted to nerf it they changed the passive on hit for this on heal and just reduced the 6th bonus to 3 stacks and/or increased the cooldown to 20s

People arguing this perplexity change is a buff should at LEAST have anecdotal evidence. Sure, on paper you can argue that this is a buff as it gives more condition builds access to confusion but according to the individuals who actually usedbthe runeset before and after the patch, it’s a nerf.

Arcaedus.7290:

People arguing this perplexity change is a buff should at LEAST have anecdotal evidence. Sure, on paper you can argue that this is a buff as it gives more condition builds access to confusion but according to the individuals who actually usedbthe runeset before and after the patch, it’s a nerf.

That’s because everyone who used perplex before had an interrupt build. Now it doesn’t proc on interrupt anymore. Obviously, they’re going to consider it a nerf. Wait a few weeks from now and see if people come up with new non-interrupt builds that use perplex. I just came up with one on my permastealth condi build so I guess you can consider it a buff to trapper thief. Permastealth trapper thief is the last thing that needs a buff.

Also, more passive procs is a bad thing. They could have just nerfed it without making it passive proc. You can consider it a nerf if you want but it’s a very poor way of doing it.

I’d like to see this rune being removed from the game. Doesn’t add anything but cancer to the game.

changes or not changes of the rune, doesn’t solve the problem on how Confusion work.

i said it in more threads… before was on skill use, and useful for pvp and wvw. no damage vs mobs in pve, so Anet decided to put damage on use and damage over time.. overtime? no way.

change confusion as it was before or for example: 100 on skill use, 10 or 20 or 30 (definitely less than 50%) over time. over time as now cant work!

MilkCarton.4087:

That’s because everyone who used perplex before had an interrupt build. Now it doesn’t proc on interrupt anymore. Obviously, they’re going to consider it a nerf. Wait a few weeks from now and see if people come up with new non-interrupt builds that use perplex. I just came up with one on my permastealth condi build so I guess you can consider it a buff to trapper thief. Permastealth trapper thief is the last thing that needs a buff.

My build was an all around condi damager using Lotus Training and some other application along with Plex. I can say for 100% sure that this is a monster nerf to the runes. Outside of your trapper variant and perma-stealth, using a heal offensively on a thief is just too dangerous.

A Thief standing next to an opponent for 1s without the ability to dodge a blow is asking for it. Withdrawl is just hard to land consistently. Now if the Plex went off on activation not at the end of the skill, then it would be powerful particularly with Withdrawl.

It isn’t great for other classes either since most heals have 1s plus activation times and heals in general have their own tactical defensive timing. Stealth condi Mesmers are probably the best choice for these runes but other runes are probably a better fit.