Guild Wars 2

Jackie.1829:

Ehh not sure you are really correct there. I think people would prefer to watch 5v5, there is a lot more skill demonstrated in those game formats, as someone who has played both spvp and wvw. WvW is interesting for those involved, and it can be fun to watch zerg busting, but I dont think it could ever be something competitive or worth observing. There is a reason why almost all spectated game modes in all of gaming are 5v5 to 8v8. Spvp does actually have strategy whereas WvW not so much.

Don’t know why people are under the impression that there is more “skill”(extremely dodgy word to use btw) in sPvP than in 10v10+. The only thing your really lack in large scale compared to sPvP is the requirement of good map awareness and being able to “read the game” so you know where to go. IMO large scale combat makes up for this with it’s requirement of good positioning and the greater amount of coordination required.

The reason IMO that smaller formats are preferred is for the sake of the spectators. As a spectator it’s hard to follow the game when there is a million things going on at once. The individual actions get obscured by their combined effects and the focus get’s shifted from how a single play effects the game, to how the combined effect turns the tide of battle.
The fact that it’s much harder to organize a group of 10-20 people rather than a group of 5 and prevent one or a few groups from recruiting all the good players and becoming completely dominant, is probably also a reason.

Might be fun to watch but first they have to fix culling.

Also, when you look at GW2 stream channels, most people watch sPvP and not WvW. Big GvG fights seem and will prolly always be more of a niche.

The game is named “guild wars” so no complaining about GVG in “guild wars” please.

SPVP is boring, its so bad compared to the original guild wars… its all about “point flipping” no skill invovled… its not about the “fights” which pvp should be about the fights… Its Very lacklasture, little fun to be had in it, besides experimenting, honing skills and fighting other guildies and ignoring the points and how the scenario’s was intended to be played… I just really dont know how they can go from GW1 Spvp with all those nice random maps with nice deathmatch format too to much king of the hill flipping spots ignoring team fights.

It reminds me of the lame warhammer scenarios where you play cat and mouse chasing around flipping flags… instead of other decent scenarios where you actually fight.

Give Team Deathmatch Scenarios

lol Wam, TRIPLE KILL!

That’s not true at all. In hot join, yes ppl will just go around flipping points to get most glory. But in tournaments it is all about the fights. Killing just 1 person will make the game 5vs4 for 15 secs, which is a huge advantage when taking points.

Wamgor.9347:

The game is named “guild wars” so no complaining about GVG in “guild wars” please.

As much as I am for PvP being about actual player-on-player combat and less about capturing and holding objectives, I don’t half /facepalm when someone says “it’s called guild wars because it’s meant to be about GvG”. I’m not even that big on the Lore and I know the Guild Wars was some major historical event that happened way before the time in which the game is set, rather than a reference to a popular game mode from GW1.

At least, that’s what your brother told me…. Thought you’d have known better, Wam! :P

Though will absolutely agree with you in that the majority of Scenarios in WAR were better than the SPvP on offer at the moment in GW2, which is a crying shame.

Katiechops.6807:

lol Wam, TRIPLE KILL!

LMFAO it was x 4 eventually LOL

I was just spamming f5 while watching videos… then it finally works and its like oh …. =D

youtube was working fine but having issues with this site for some reason hahaha mmmmmonster Kill

Krato.4729:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Km_KxMmNA

Some really nice fights for TUP this week, both with our smaller 10-man roamers and full 25-man warband. Particular mention to [LdF] (seen smashing into our flank in the above video) and [NOM], with whom we have had several epic fights. Also a big shout out to our brosephs in Semper Dius from Gandara.

When are you going to encode your videos properly so you don’t have black bars? :p

I didnt say it was all meant to about GvG… im just saying that for GvG to happen is very nice, considering the lack of tools provided to our community for us to enable GvG, we have to make our own. Its nice change fighting organised groups, instead of always pug Zergs. Im just pointing our the irony that alot of people complaining about the GvG going on(some of it arranged, most of it not)… in a game named “guild wars”

Give less pve in spvp is a good place to start to make spvp better…

Dius see’s TUP group at Arahs hope Ruuunnnn!!! reaches the top of the hill Ah screw it, might as well have a crack! ATTACK!!!! :P

Also… Vier… I will find you in that TUP mass and one day… I will kill you! <3

Krato.4729:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Km_KxMmNA

Some really nice fights for TUP this week, both with our smaller 10-man roamers and full 25-man warband. Particular mention to [LdF] (seen smashing into our flank in the above video) and [NOM], with whom we have had several epic fights. Also a big shout out to our brosephs in Semper Dius from Gandara.

Lol the music choices 5:30 is the best part… epic stalling some nice fights in that vid, as for that stalling in garrison… you missed the part where one of the guy’s who was stalling before me(gj btw) complained on team chat, that he died and didnt get any of the kills… so Tup all mailed him 50 silver each Lmao then others who was there wanted some but we were too broke then sorry

Wamgor.9347:

didnt get any of the kills… so Tup all mailed him 50 silver each Lmao then others who was there wanted some but we were too broke then sorry

WOW, if VII sent me gold for all the kills they steal off me I’d be the richest mofoer in GW2

Wamgor.9347:

didnt get any of the kills… so Tup all mailed him 50 silver each Lmao then others who was there wanted some but we were too broke then sorry

WOW, if VII sent me gold for all the kills they steal off me I’d be the richest mofoer in GW2

KinkyWarrior.1879:

Dius see’s TUP group at Arahs hope Ruuunnnn!!! reaches the top of the hill Ah screw it, might as well have a crack! ATTACK!!!! :P

Also… Vier… I will find you in that TUP mass and one day… I will kill you! <3

Nah you won’t

abaddon.4768:

its the current structure that keeps me from spvp. straight up 5v5 or 8v8 or 20v20 is what I prefer.

there was a spectator system in gw1. where you could watch back ingame all different scales of pvp. Not sure if the smaller scaled pvp was more popular. Can some gw1 guru clarify?

I believe the game format for spvp is not the best one. But deathmatches have also rarely been the focus of anything worth spectating. MOBA games for example are not straight deathmatches.

Anyways, the point is what makes a good spectator game format is watching something exciting. And lets face it, there is nothing that exciting to watch about wvw. That is because all the intrinsic aspects of the game do actually go out the window once it becomes 20v20. Sure you can say that it takes organization, but all it takes is having a good leader and some basic understanding of your class.

There is no boon micro play, no intrinsic mind games (flanking the enemy is not a mind game) akin to burning out stability before a burst, no insane twitch play (watch jumper spvping in NA, the speed and precision with which he can use infiltrators arrow is incredibly impressive), no cooldown tracking, no respawn timer tracking, no stomp micro play etc. The point is there are no “big plays” or high level micro, and those are what people really watch esports for. Watching someone like froggen do that epic flash to barely land a kill in an MLG knockout match is something people like to watch. Watching everybody follow a guy with a target icon and just dump skills on that location is not really anything worthy of observer mode.

As for GW1, the observer mode was indeed very popular for 8v8. GW1 hosted a live world championship with a 50k cash prize in Leipzig during its prime, it surely was worth watching, sadly I cant say the same for anything of GW2. A lot of the GW1 vets moved on to play MLG level in other games such as MOBA ones, but the skillcap on GW2 is significantly lower than GW1 which is why spvp just isnt as competitive.

To Piken: As the commander of the PuG Warbands on Gandara borderlands nearly all evening, I salute you! Your persistence and tactics led to many good fights this evening and I thoroughly enjoyed myself

I think it was mainly:
sIN(early on)
AFTL (Most of the night)
GG
Necr
EXE
PX

And some others, but for what could be classed as the true last night of fighting, I had a barrel of fun =)!

Heru.5427:

Don’t know why people are under the impression that there is more “skill”(extremely dodgy word to use btw) in sPvP than in 10v10+.

You’re kidding right? Just stack 4 guardians and 3 warriors and at least a mesmer and AoE kitten on everyone without losing boons ever.

tPvP is much more competitive and skilled since usually you have a couple 1v1s, 2v2s and 3v3s over the points where you actually have to use everything you got to win those fights, like when your enemy gets additonal reinforcements so you’ve to dodge his skills and kite off (much higher awareness since 1 second and you’ll be dead by a thief, while in WvW as long as you stay with your team you can get all the boons your warriors/guardians/eles are giving), there is just no room to be carried in tPvP (paids mostly)… while in WvW is just follow the leader, charge in, spam AoE, regroup + reflections + heals + boons, charge again.

Not saying its completely unskilled… definitely not. But there is just no comparison with high end tPvP.

Jackie.1829:

abaddon.4768:

its the current structure that keeps me from spvp. straight up 5v5 or 8v8 or 20v20 is what I prefer.

there was a spectator system in gw1. where you could watch back ingame all different scales of pvp. Not sure if the smaller scaled pvp was more popular. Can some gw1 guru clarify?

I believe the game format for spvp is not the best one. But deathmatches have also rarely been the focus of anything worth spectating. MOBA games for example are not straight deathmatches.

Anyways, the point is what makes a good spectator game format is watching something exciting. And lets face it, there is nothing that exciting to watch about wvw. That is because all the intrinsic aspects of the game do actually go out the window once it becomes 20v20. Sure you can say that it takes organization, but all it takes is having a good leader and some basic understanding of your class.

There is no boon micro play, no intrinsic mind games (flanking the enemy is not a mind game) akin to burning out stability before a burst, no insane twitch play (watch jumper spvping in NA, the speed and precision with which he can use infiltrators arrow is incredibly impressive), no cooldown tracking, no respawn timer tracking, no stomp micro play etc. The point is there are no “big plays” or high level micro, and those are what people really watch esports for. Watching someone like froggen do that epic flash to barely land a kill in an MLG knockout match is something people like to watch. Watching everybody follow a guy with a target icon and just dump skills on that location is not really anything worthy of observer mode.

As for GW1, the observer mode was indeed very popular for 8v8. GW1 hosted a live world championship with a 50k cash prize in Leipzig during its prime, it surely was worth watching, sadly I cant say the same for anything of GW2. A lot of the GW1 vets moved on to play MLG level in other games such as MOBA ones, but the skillcap on GW2 is significantly lower than GW1 which is why spvp just isnt as competitive.

Totally agreed.

You all worry too much, wvw is for hanging out with your guild, charging about like nutters, doing a bit of pew pew, having a few beers, trying to get yourselves killed in the most kitten manner possible, mocking each others deaths, doing some tea bagging then finishing the night doing some RP as a guard on the keep battlements discussing the lost cat.

Katiechops.6807:

You all worry too much, wvw is for hanging out with your guild, charging about like nutters, doing a bit of pew pew, having a few beers, trying to get yourselves killed in the most kitten manner possible, mocking each others deaths, doing some tea bagging then finishing the night doing some RP as a guard on the keep battlements discussing the lost cat.

What she said ^ but in a posh English accent.

Also, thank you to Augory Rock guilds (LdF, NA, and others I cant remember off of the top of my head) on Gandara borderlands a little earlier this evening for the endless action at Shedaran Hills and the general vicinity around it! That was absolutely fantastic action there. More of that please! I want your badges and I’m happy to trade some repair bills for them >:3

Katiechops.6807:

discussing the lost cat.

If it’s ever found, there will be no motivation for Piken guilds to invade and the end credits roll for our server. If VII get to it first, it’s going in the river.

Someone claimed to have spotted the cat in SM a few hours ago hence the drive to turn it upside down.

Oh jesus… well that escalated quickly

What the cat? nah its been an issue for months, the RSPCA on PS are slack they just not helping us.

Oh I remember the cat from that time someone posted a thread angry at all the RPers on Piken looking for the cat in the middle of a Stonemist Siege xD But to drown it is a bit… extreme xD

So while I was trying to get the jump on RG with 10 guys, you were busy RP’ing on the walls watching us die? Gee, thanks guys! Haha, this has been a good week, and we’ve had some truly fantastic fights against groups from both servers. Glad we’re heading into another week with you two ^^ +we weren’t playing tonight on Gandara BL, Thursdays is the only night we don’t raid, so whoever you saw were just the people getting their daily fix. We were active in Gandara BL the 4 previous nights though, so maybe you remember us from then See you all next week!

Regards

GG

Vanz.5976:

Katiechops.6807:

discussing the lost cat.

If it’s ever found, there will be no motivation for Piken guilds to invade and the end credits roll for our server. If VII get to it first, it’s going in the river.

Wouldnt be the first time I have killed a cat for the sake of the server

Ah I saw some GG members and well, the way you raid I just assumed! =)

Axle.5182:

Someone claimed to have spotted the cat in SM a few hours ago hence the drive to turn it upside down.

It was an intense search, spreading to every corner of EB! We spotted the cat stuck behind the water gate of the green keep! We smashed and smashed that metal grate to free it while you lot fruitlessly searched SM… sadly Augury drove us away Sounds like VII is to blame!

Yeah all in vain we thought it might have snuck out the back of SM and into the ogre camp but Gandara showed up just before reset and got in the way of the search have no idea where it is now hopefully someone on night shift will spot it and we will be hot on it’s trail again, some poor old lady in divinty reach will have to spend another cold winters night without her poor fluffy

I want to thank the SETH guild who think camping the jumping puzzle (PK B-lands) with a ballista is good PVP, I want to thank them for the brief moment of entertainment before they were staked by KA who were very amused by the lack of fight they had in them against an organised group rather than an unsuspecting soloer.

Maybe this happened to the cat:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110507033302AA08PVE

The cat is yet to be found and it is definitely not hidden somewhere by a sneaky thief!

Are you rdy for round 4?!

Hope RG had a nice holiday at Gandara. Good luck wherever youre going next :-)

The only question left for this week is: Are Gandara going to be relegated or are we taking another rematch.

Piken…to many really strong guilds…everywhere…stressful… ^^ (when we are fighting our new game is to guess what guild will come on our back).
But we learned a lot and some of the best fight we made on this game, big thanks and respect to your server.
RG, hope we can do something against you in the futur. TUP and VII always a big big challenge to face you.

Cya next week !

@sorry bad english
Roubi [LdF]

Another rematch I imagine, would take a good push by both augury and jade sea to see us relegated. Augury in particular because I think jade sea have squeezed most of the points they’re going to get out of their matchup already.
Think we’ll scrape 2nd place this week though. Probably depends mostly on who piken decides to pick on for the day : P
One of us will more than likely get relegated next week though.

You never know Caid we might get a round 5 :P

So we are now all square with one victory each… next week is the potential decider

Plenty of great fights so far… and alot less trolling now Piken is winning…

Getting to know each others server pretty well, looking forward to the next match up which could still go anyway, as each week the front runner as been overtaken.

Bring on the fights

Before you read my post, I would ask that you try to somewhat take it out of context, so that you can at least follow my path of reasoning without bias at first. I know this is incredibly hard, but I would ask that you at least try.

The fact that sPvP requires more individual skill than large scale fights or more twitch skills is an illusion created by:

a) Not having done proper large scale fights
b) A preconception that just because the outcome of an individuals action matters more, it takes more skill.
c) There is no competitive scene, no true competition, no time commitment. Large scale fights atm lack the community and the competition. We are nowhere near the “skill-cap”.

Point a) probably matters to some degree but point b) and c) are probably the main reasons for your flawed reasoning. I certainly agree with you, that when you are playing with 19 other people instead of 4 it’s easier to get carried and the actions of a single individual matters less to the overall outcome, but the outcome is still a summation of all the individual plays. If you have 20 perfect players, do you not think they will wipe the floor with everybody else?

Let me elaborate what I mean with point b)
Let’s take a sport as an example. I’m swedish so I’m gonna take football(that’s soccer for you americans) as an example. In football you usually play with 11 people on the field in each team. Passing the ball in a certain way or going around a defender is equally difficult no matter the number of people on the field(well mostly), but the effects of these accomplishments vary greatly. If you are more people, then the defender who just got rounded may very well have a teammate who can cover his mistake and take the ball from the attacker. If you are less people, let’s say only 5 on the field, then there probably is no defender to cover his teammates mistake. The effect of the attackers accomplishments matters more as he is now much closer to accomplishing his final goal of scoring a goal.
In the same way using the right ability at exactly the right time, not being tricked into using your stunbreaker, and so on all take the same amount of skill, (if not more due to taking more variables into account) in large scale fights that it does in sPvP.

Point c) refers to the fact that even the best and most dedicated WvW guilds (one of which I would probably consider myself being part of), are not close to skill cap.
Why is this then? The main reason IMO is very simple. TIME. All the people that play tPvP (or any serious E-sport, just look at pro koreans in SC2) at top level, play all day. It’s basically like a job for them. They are not born with the ability to be awesome at all computer games, they reach the top by training and they stay there by constantly training. Those who do WvW do not have the same luxury. First of all you basically have to have 10+ people that are online and want to play at the same time, all the time. Second of all, the people that do sPvP constantly fight (thus training and improving). WvW does not work like this. Because of the way Anet intended it, WvW play consist to probably 70% of running from point A to point B. This means that at most only 30% of time spent playing can only be considered training. In addition to this, much of the time (at least for RG), you just end up facerolling PuGs, or lesser numbers or bads, reducing these 30% even further. The time spent improving is thus much lower than for those doing sPvP. In other words, even the best among the WvW guilds aren’t that good(in relation to the “skill-cap”)

@Jackiepro: sPvP conquest doesn’t work because it doesn’t force direct confrontation the same way that Dota style maps do (Assuming this is what you meant when you said MOBAs, even though there are MOBAs with different game types). MOBAs have a direct goal which basically requires your opposing teams destruction. Conquest doesn’t as much in the same way. At least that’s my take on it, but I haven’t bothered with it to much.

@pedrst: Your melee train could easily be kited. A Staff necro with wells/corruption does wonders against guardians, so no I don’t think your " 4 guardians and 3 warriors and at least a mesmer" would work out too well. It’s all solid classes though and by all means feel free to prove me wrong. RG is usually up for some good WvW fights.

Woodsman Silencio.9361:

I don’t think that WvWvW is suited as a spectator thing. A good siege over for instance Bay for instance:

• a whole night of skirmishing to get all towers and all keeps on a borderland upgraded to tier 2 / 3.
• a whole morning of finishing the upgrading of the tier 2 and placing of Siege weapons in them.
• the hour or more of skirmishing for the breaking out.
• the 2 hour Siege over Briar Tower.
• the 4 hour Siege over Bay Keep.
  
  That’s a summary of 1 of the best Siege’s i was ever involved in. In the end we as Gandara lost the Bay Keep and Fort Ranik could claim victory on that part of the map ( however they dropped below 100 points overall ).
  Tell me, how can you get that into a video without an organiciation behind it. because you wil need to have multiple people frapping the action. And then you need a editor to make it into a video.

Great idea, it can be done! Certainly not as a live thing, but perhaps a shorter film with narrative structure, at least to demonstrate what WvW is really about. Might be a worthwhile project for a large guild with a number of people frapping to attempt.