They can keep constantly going down with out dying.
Care to elaborate
After 3 downs you suppose to die. they dont die.
I’m not entirely sure if it’s supposed to work this way.
Rally in downed state is -25% HP each rally.
Ressed by team – always 75% HP when you get up
Being ressed is seriously BS. I play in a roaming group and there was a time my party and another roaming party (total of 7) fought a 12~ man guild group. We downed this player 3 times in a span of 10 seconds. Since it was an organized guild group, they always mass ressed him the moment he downed and he always came back up with 75% HP.
Obviously, we lost because we’re unable to secure stomps and they had the upper hand due to superior cleave so we couldn’t res our own without blowing everyone’s invuls.
I honestly think once you’re down, its over. The stealth res can be annoying, especially when you are winning outnumbered against another roaming crew.
But I could see duelers having an issue with this, maybe introduce duel mode, you lose but never get downed. Or make OS strictly duel mode I guess.
Ya I don’t like downed state in wvw. It’s expected for numbers to be unbalanced due to the hotjoin nature and size of the maps. And yet downed state favors the larger numbered group from solo/roaming to havok to zergs.
I really would like to see the outnumbered buff remove the requirement for a side to spike thier enemies even if it means screwing individuals on the opposing side who happens to find themselves in a 1vX.
Ya I don’t like downed state in wvw. It’s expected for numbers to be unbalanced due to the hotjoin nature and size of the maps. And yet downed state favors the larger numbered group from solo/roaming to havok to zergs.
I really would like to see the outnumbered buff remove the requirement for a side to spike thier enemies even if it means screwing individuals on the opposing side who happens to find themselves in a 1vX.
Hot join? Wvw?
Don’t you mean pvp?
Ya I don’t like downed state in wvw. It’s expected for numbers to be unbalanced due to the hotjoin nature and size of the maps. And yet downed state favors the larger numbered group from solo/roaming to havok to zergs.
I really would like to see the outnumbered buff remove the requirement for a side to spike thier enemies even if it means screwing individuals on the opposing side who happens to find themselves in a 1vX.
Hot join? Wvw?
Don’t you mean pvp?
hotjoin, as in enter and leave at your own discretion during an on going match.
The amount of time it takes for that penalty to wear off is way too short.
I’m not entirely sure if it’s supposed to work this way.
Rally in downed state is -25% HP each rally.
Ressed by team – always 75% HP when you get upBeing ressed is seriously BS. I play in a roaming group and there was a time my party and another roaming party (total of 7) fought a 12~ man guild group. We downed this player 3 times in a span of 10 seconds. Since it was an organized guild group, they always mass ressed him the moment he downed and he always came back up with 75% HP.
Obviously, we lost because we’re unable to secure stomps and they had the upper hand due to superior cleave so we couldn’t res our own without blowing everyone’s invuls.
So you’re saying that you lost because the enemy outnumbered you so much you couldnt win?
Yes, thats exactly how its supposed to work. In WvW, in sPvP and even in PvE. Thats how all games work when you fight enemies and they kill you.
I’d also like to know how many Scrappers you had because if you dont say at least 2 then you brought screwdrivers to hammer in nails. Sure it will eventually work if you are completely backwards but bringing the proper tools is always better.
I’m pretty sure OP is right. My roaming crew and I have been fighting some tough fights vs all these basic bunker comps, and I threw a target with the intention of us downing him 3-4 times for the perms death as that is the only way to overcome the horrible state of small man balance in this meta. We ended up downing the same bunker DH 5? 6? Times in a timespan of about a minute and a half, the first 4 very quickly and yet he kept coming. I remember after about the 3rd quick death after rezzing you are not supposed to have a downstate.
To kill someone through downing, the enemy has to be downed 4 times in a minute or less. It rarely happens and very rarely happens in small scale fights.
Players should only be able to go down once every minute or two.
As a side note, I still believe dead players should have to port. The current system offers no tactical advantage for a smaller group to engage a larger one so long as a larger force can easily reconstitute itself in seconds. sPvP does it this way and it is vastly superior.
The entire system values larger numbers over skill at every turn.
(edited by Straegen.2938)
So you’re saying that you lost because the enemy outnumbered you so much you couldnt win?
Yes, thats exactly how its supposed to work. In WvW, in sPvP and even in PvE. Thats how all games work when you fight enemies and they kill you.
It’s really not though…. In most games you can take a smaller group of skilled players and whittle down a large group by focusing and killing players. This game has a serious problem with that because of downed state and the aoe limit. One is a technical limitation, the other was to promote their super casual, care bear pve.
You can’t fully remove the downed state from WvW because it is to tied into the game (runes, traits, gyro stomp, etc.), but it definitely should be tweaked for WvW. Like maybe players rally with 25% health instead of 75%, players can only rally once every 5 minutes, vapor form no longer allows you to go through gates, etc.
Larger groups already have enough of an advantage, if anet took steps towards leveling the playing field maybe they will encourage more people to leave the blob (which would fix other problems like skill lag).
I’m not entirely sure if it’s supposed to work this way.
Rally in downed state is -25% HP each rally.
Ressed by team – always 75% HP when you get upBeing ressed is seriously BS. I play in a roaming group and there was a time my party and another roaming party (total of 7) fought a 12~ man guild group. We downed this player 3 times in a span of 10 seconds. Since it was an organized guild group, they always mass ressed him the moment he downed and he always came back up with 75% HP.
Obviously, we lost because we’re unable to secure stomps and they had the upper hand due to superior cleave so we couldn’t res our own without blowing everyone’s invuls.
So you’re saying that you lost because the enemy outnumbered you so much you couldnt win?
Yes, thats exactly how its supposed to work. In WvW, in sPvP and even in PvE. Thats how all games work when you fight enemies and they kill you.
I’d also like to know how many Scrappers you had because if you dont say at least 2 then you brought screwdrivers to hammer in nails. Sure it will eventually work if you are completely backwards but bringing the proper tools is always better.
That logic should only apply in large scale zerg fights, not in small scale roamer fights and skirmishes wherein every player has a bigger value than a zergling. Players should be rewarded for outplaying enemies, much more against a larger group. The counter before auto-death for getting ressed or rallying should be reduced.
And no, we had 0 scrappers and I doubt scrappers could do much against an organized DH heavy guild group. We had 3 condi users (2 Rev, 1 Reaper) and 4 power users (2 Tempests, DH, Chrono). We obviously had the upper hand in mobility and personal DPS and I believe we used it to our advantage decently well. The fight took 6 minutes before we got wiped and we got our first double downie at the 5 minute mark.
(edited by Kyon.9735)
look @ 7:19
That logic should only apply in large scale zerg fights, not in small scale roamer fights and skirmishes wherein every player has a bigger value than a zergling. Players should be rewarded for outplaying enemies, much more against a larger group. The counter before auto-death for getting ressed or rallying should be reduced.
Logic? It’s the facts of combat. You said it yourself – you had 7 vs 12. That’s nearly a 2:1 advantage for the enemy. 1v2 in practically any scenario assuming equal skill and any classes is going to be a hard fight. All these videos of people going 1v2, 1v3, 1v4 or 10 man guild groups taking on 30 man zergs is a matter of different skill levels or builds meeting their perfect counter. They are not representive of any kind of average WvW play where yes, that “logic” apply across the board.
And no, we had 0 scrappers and I doubt scrappers could do much against an organized DH heavy guild group. We had 3 condi users (2 Rev, 1 Reaper) and 4 power users (2 Tempests, DH, Chrono). We obviously had the upper hand in mobility and personal DPS and I believe we used it to our advantage decently well. The fight took 6 minutes before we got wiped and we got our first double downie at the 5 minute mark.
Then you have no idea what scrappers are capable of in small scale combat and what they bring to the table with their ranged stomp.
You probably did a good job fighting a numerically superior force for that long, but you still brought an obvious GREN zerg composition (albeit a smaller group) to fight against what I can only assume was a bigger GREN group. But your group wasnt good enough (or they wherent bad enough) to weigh up for the difference in numbers and you didnt bring any tools that could have tipped the scales. Numbers won. Outcome obvious.
(edited by Dawdler.8521)
But your group wasnt good enough (or they wherent bad enough) to weigh up for the difference in numbers and you didnt bring any tools that could have tipped the scales. Numbers won. Outcome obvious.
There are more tools for rallying a player than there are tools for stomping them. One Guardian in the mix can easily invulnerable rally a player while reflecting everything landing on them.
Why should players that get downed twice in 60s not die? What is the justification for allowing a player to continually rally despite poor play?
BTW it gets particularly annoying when a player goes down they become invuln for a couple seconds making timing fast stomps overly difficult.
I agree, a very simple easy solution is to NOT have the enemy be invulnerable when downed and rez’d. The combination of the 2 wastes so much time and so many attacks when ur trying to secure a kill……it often happens over and over on the same player. if it happens 3 times on the same player….thats 6 phases of invulnerability they get! and each phase is just over 1 second of time.
WHY SHOULD SOMEONE DYING GET OVER 6 SECONDS OF INVULNERABILITY FOR FREE?
look @ 7:19
that pretty much sums it up. Double or Triple the numbers on each side and u have the basic “small group vs enemy zerg scenario”. You’ll need a dedicated “downed state killer” in ur squad who’s role is to secure kills…so basically a daredevil or mesmer with a warp bomb. But the enemy is likely to have 2-3x as many of the same thing running….so ur screwed.
I often fight 3vs1, I can down all 3 of them but I know ill die if i don’t leave at that point. You cannot secure the kills in this meta with a warrior. Stability….stability gets rekt by ur opponents downed abilities if you happen to still have it when u down them (unless ur dolyak signet). Just today I came upon a camp, where the ring was up…saw what looked like 2 enemies (1 was necro), fought and downed them both but then it turned out there were 3 enemies. I was still 80+% health at that point, but i had no stability left and only healing signet for condi clear. I had no choice but to run at that point without even attacking the third enemy, I knew I would die if i stayed to secure the kills and/or prevent them from taking the camp.
1. i had to stay in the ring with the 2 downed players and third alive and well player
2. i had no stability left to secure a flag plant on either of the downed
3. i had only endure pain and healing signet as my sustain along with 20k hp
It sounds completely ridiculous that anyone should have to run at that point….giving the enemy both the camp and their lives even after defeating them, but thats how this game plays.
Honestly why can’t downing the enemy grant u stability? I feel like this should be a warrior trait tbh….replace one of the useless ones we have. At this point I feel i might have to take rampage as my ultimate and only use it once i down my enemy…lolol.
(edited by Cerby.1069)
I have experienced some oddities recently where certain players kept on rallying without something to rally them. We just assumed it was some sort of hack/exploit because it was the same person every time.
I’ve not experienced players negating the downed limit though. That sounds super frustrating.
Other than that, the downed/defeated state system works well in WvW now. Not being able to res fully dead players makes it easier to overcome larger groups now. Securing the stomp or preventing a res is an art in itself that adds depth to the game. There are some classes that are more capable of safe stomping during hectic battles and that’s what a well organised group should be utilising. Everyone can contribute to the prevention of a res too by nuking the downed person with AoE CC and damage – which is easier post HoT because we have access to so much damage now. My guild have ended fights against overwhelming odds purely via a targeted CC and damage spike on a downed person of importance in an enemy zerg.
That logic should only apply in large scale zerg fights, not in small scale roamer fights and skirmishes wherein every player has a bigger value than a zergling. Players should be rewarded for outplaying enemies, much more against a larger group. The counter before auto-death for getting ressed or rallying should be reduced.
Logic? It’s the facts of combat. You said it yourself – you had 7 vs 12. That’s nearly a 2:1 advantage for the enemy. 1v2 in practically any scenario assuming equal skill and any classes is going to be a hard fight. All these videos of people going 1v2, 1v3, 1v4 or 10 man guild groups taking on 30 man zergs is a matter of different skill levels or builds meeting their perfect counter. They are not representive of any kind of average WvW play where yes, that “logic” apply across the board.
And no, we had 0 scrappers and I doubt scrappers could do much against an organized DH heavy guild group. We had 3 condi users (2 Rev, 1 Reaper) and 4 power users (2 Tempests, DH, Chrono). We obviously had the upper hand in mobility and personal DPS and I believe we used it to our advantage decently well. The fight took 6 minutes before we got wiped and we got our first double downie at the 5 minute mark.
Then you have no idea what scrappers are capable of in small scale combat and what they bring to the table with their ranged stomp.
You probably did a good job fighting a numerically superior force for that long, but you still brought an obvious GREN zerg composition (albeit a smaller group) to fight against what I can only assume was a bigger GREN group. But your group wasnt good enough (or they wherent bad enough) to weigh up for the difference in numbers and you didnt bring any tools that could have tipped the scales. Numbers won. Outcome obvious.
Please try reading. 7 roamer builds against 12~DH heavy zerg type group and we’re obviously more than your every day casual roamer. We were picking them apart even though they stacked and we have the superior mobility and personal DPS advantage because we don’t stack and we specifically use roaming builds.
Scrappers can’t really do much against a tightly stacked boon spam group. If it was a smaller scale skirmish against a roaming group then yes, they’d be good.
Not being able to res fully dead players makes it easier to overcome larger groups now.
….
My guild have ended fights against overwhelming odds purely via a targeted CC and damage spike on a downed person of importance in an enemy zerg.
1. false, you can rez fully dead players in as few as 4 seconds even in the middle of a huge fight. happens all the time, its very easy to ooc from combat if u kno how. zergs push back and forth and each time they push to a dead body their backline will rez it while frontline lands shields and reflects. the enemy will still be at a disadvantage if they jump to stop this rezing due to the trap/aoe meta. people dont need more than a second to empower and buff their allies….there is no loss to the zerg’s defense and offense capabilities in rezing for 4 seconds…there is only gain in having 1 more person alive.
5 people in a zerg inexplicably dying suddenly, like a /kill suicide command, has 0 effect against impairing or damaging that zerg…at most it grants a 5 second delay to the zerg’s movement before it regenerates…and that is why the meta is frustrating and unfair. its like playing a fps, killing 2 of the enemy players and 4 seconds later the respawn ontop of their bodies with 2 seconds of invulnerability…..then once u kill them u have to kill them again to make them dead dead…but then the cycle repeats another4 seconds later.
its a case of managing movement and cooldowns. any victories at the start of a fight can be completely negated 10 seconds later, and people find that frustrating. every enemy enjoys a total victory or every enemy dies…regardless of how well u play.
2. if u can end a fight this way the enemy is alrdy losing, training, inexperienced, or much smaller than ur forces. small group fights can be ended nicely by bombing a downed player tho if ur specd for that, large fights tho….no thats not what wins a fight.
(edited by Cerby.1069)
I honestly think once you’re down, its over. The stealth res can be annoying, especially when you are winning outnumbered against another roaming crew.
But I could see duelers having an issue with this, maybe introduce duel mode, you lose but never get downed. Or make OS strictly duel mode I guess.
or the interesting “feature” where some people can get up from downed state at full health without rally, stealth rez, etc…
that is my fave
But your group wasnt good enough (or they wherent bad enough) to weigh up for the difference in numbers and you didnt bring any tools that could have tipped the scales. Numbers won. Outcome obvious.
There are more tools for rallying a player than there are tools for stomping them. One Guardian in the mix can easily invulnerable rally a player while reflecting everything landing on them.
Why should players that get downed twice in 60s not die? What is the justification for allowing a player to continually rally despite poor play?
BTW it gets particularly annoying when a player goes down they become invuln for a couple seconds making timing fast stomps overly difficult.
And there are even more tools to prevent people rallying. One necro in the mix can easily bomb the downed player delaying said guardian enough for a stomp.
Whats the justification? Teamplay. Yes, its as simple as that. This is an MMO and rallying makes us help each other. Its a core mechanic and why GW2 is fun for a large amount of people rather than only the small elite. Remove rallying and you will kill the game.
The invoulnerability is irrelevant with the proper tools, lol. A scrapper can deploy stmp gyro the instant a player goes down. 3s is all you need. Sometimes thats not enough, sure. But most of the time you can even exploit the fact that people wait for res. so many times someone go down, several people rush in seconds after, no one of us around and then stomp with them nicely clumped together for AoE a second after that.
Plenty of classes don’t have the kind of stomp abilities others do though.
Base warrior has nothing to allow them to secure a stomp. Base engie….is the complete opposite.
Ranger has a pet to block cc’s, blinds, stealth
Mesmer has stealth, blind, illusions and crap to keep a downed player downed
Ele has mist form, damage reduction galore they can equip, heavy aoe with no worry
Guardian has its blocks built-in
Rev is close to warrior in its inability to do anything in its base state
necro….aoe’s like ele has…..although not as strong as ele (in all fairness)/minions
Base warrior still has access to stability, EP, and berserker stance, any one or two of which is more than enough to secure a stomp in nearly all situations.
Whats the justification? Teamplay. Yes, its as simple as that. This is an MMO and rallying makes us help each other.
Players on here aren’t complaining about Rally itself but that it is basically a revolving door with no end. Besides there are already several skills that are built around rallying team players without the need for a near limitless mechanic.
Its a core mechanic and why GW2 is fun for a large amount of people rather than only the small elite. Remove rallying and you will kill the game.
Players on the forum have been screaming about rally for so long it hurts. It took YEARS for Anet to finally make some modest changes to the system. Those changes… nobody cried, most cheered.
Saying near infinite rallies is a beloved and critical portion of WvW is ridiculous. Never ending rallies is a lame system centered around weak play and superior numbers.
And there are even more tools to prevent people rallying. One necro in the mix can easily bomb the downed player delaying said guardian enough for a stomp.
There are far more rally skills/traits than there are stomp skills/traits (I think there is one and it has that Invuln problem).
Traits, Skill, etc that rally players faster or completely:
Signet of Mercy
“Search and Rescue!”
Glyph of Renewal
Illusion of Life
Signet of Undeath
Battle Standard
Nature’s Renewal
Symbol of Judgment
Toss Elixir R
Life Leech
Bandage
Protective Reviver
Determined Revival
Radiant Revival
Function Gyro
Nature Magic Allies’ Aid
Merciful Ambush
Arcane Resurrection
Medic’s Feedback
Ritual of Life
Transfusion
Life from Death
Superior Rune of Mercy
Base warrior still has access to stability, EP, and berserker stance, any one or two of which is more than enough to secure a stomp in nearly all situations.
I understand your counter point, but just to make small point of my own. Your guild seems to be built around stealthing a player when they go down. Stomping one of you fellows when you are in a team is ridiculously difficult… and I think you know that.
I’d remove Illusion of Life from the list since the player will go down again unless a enemy dies.
Also Bandage is the #4 while downed. Why is it in the list?
Base warrior still has access to stability, EP, and berserker stance, any one or two of which is more than enough to secure a stomp in nearly all situations.
I understand your counter point, but just to make small point of my own. Your guild seems to be built around stealthing a player when they go down. Stomping one of you fellows when you are in a team is ridiculously difficult… and I think you know that.
You can still aoe on top of where the downed player was and problably end up killing him and anyone stupid enough to stay in the aoe fiesta. The only people who still can ress while stealthed are the people who would be able to survive the aoe dmg/cc, which are people who didn’t needed the stealth in the first place.
(edited by Jeknar.6184)
Saying near infinite rallies is a beloved and critical portion of WvW is ridiculous. Never ending rallies is a lame system centered around weak play and superior numbers.
We dont have near infinite rallies unless you allow it. If you cant stomp them after several tries… well then you lost the fight already. You failed, end of story.
Without the downed state, all you’d see in WvW is pinsniping 100% of the time, every engagement. Get him down and it’s game over for the other group, he’s dead and cant be ressed, lol. Fun fun. Rallying and ressing mechanics allow for some flexibility.
Saying near infinite rallies is a beloved and critical portion of WvW is ridiculous. Never ending rallies is a lame system centered around weak play and superior numbers.
We dont have near infinite rallies unless you allow it. If you cant stomp them after several tries… well then you lost the fight already. You failed, end of story.
Without the downed state, all you’d see in WvW is pinsniping 100% of the time, every engagement. Get him down and it’s game over for the other group, he’s dead and cant be ressed, lol. Fun fun. Rallying and ressing mechanics allow for some flexibility.
If your group falls apart the second you lose your driver…. well then you lost the fight already. You failed, end of story.
Seems theres no penalty for dropping someone multiple times within a min. Anyone know why that was removed?
The penalty is that the player will have less life in downstate everytime he goes down. This is still active and makes it a lot easier to kill them in downstate.
I personally have died many many times while I was ressing someone. If you play a good group, then you know you should stomp and/or focusfire the downed with unblockable AoE, with ccs and damage. Everyone that is resing a player is stacked up thightly, does not do any damage and will struggle to react on something you do while they are ressing. Just take advantage of that.
Not affiliated with ArenaNet or NCSOFT. No support is provided.
All assets, page layout, visual style belong to ArenaNet and are used solely to replicate the original design and preserve the original look and feel.
Contact /u/e-scrape-artist on reddit if you encounter a bug.
