Guild Wars 2

Nah… You still don’t get me… It’s not about individual player choice, it’s about the change that will happen if the meta switches to favor small skilled teams. Here’s my point:

If it becomes possible that there are 5 man team builds which can consistently beat 30 man zergs, then the meta will simply break down to putting together small open field PvP teams. Even if that 30 man zerg has its own skilled 5 man team embedded in it, they would be too diluted and a skilled 5 man team could pick apart the other 25 players, while avoiding the embedded 5 man.

Let me throw it at you this way. Downed state is the way that a guys like you are able to keep guys like me alive. Otherwise, coordinated burst rules the day.

Dee Jay.2460:

Then there’s the fact that people can resurrect defeated players, even in the middle of combat. That imo is a broken system and shouldn’t happen. There must be a state in which a player is defeated for good. Resurrecting while in combat should not be possible.

Agree.

Sansarah.3076:

Melkiah.2496:

If enemies are trying to ress a downed player just throw a random CC and start stomping right away, you’ll probably finish the enemy before his mate recovers.

If you are afraid of having your stomp interrupted just cast an invulnerability/stability/barrier/whatever right before (or during) the stomp and the enemy will be as good as dead.

If you don’t have any of the above on you skill/utility bar, or you just spam them mindlessly during the combat leaving you off guard when you have to finish of the enemy, you still have to learn how to play in WvW/PvP.

Enjoy

While this sounds good in practice, wasting a survival utility or cc to get a stomp off. Isn’t always ideal, as there is no forced release in WvW. The time it takes to rez someone even finished off, isn’t very high. When facing a larger number off opponents, timing and use of utilities is crucial to your own survival.

Using a survival utility to get a stomp off works fine in 1vs(1-3), 2vs(2-5) and so on. But as soon as the numbers increase even more, those survival utilities becomes so much more valuable. More so when facing good opponents, we shouldn’t be forced to use survival skills to get a stomp off. At least not without some kind of forced release. We have killed them once already after all, the game is to nice in pvp.

That’s only my own opinion of course.

In my opinion you are looking at this the wrong way. You are not “wasting” utility skills to get stomps, you are using them smartly. The thing I really like about the downed state is that it dynamically creates control points around the battlefield. Whichever side is better at controlling these small points will push forward and has an advantage in the battle. It makes the fields of battle seem much more alive and dynamic than in other MMOs.

Since you know ahead of time that these control points will be created, and you know that your enemies have methods of contesting the control points, it makes sense that you would incorporate tools into your build to help with controlling these points. I have always carried an interrupt or two on me, and stability when I can (necro here ) and I do not have the same complaints about down state as many other players seem to have. It is a fun mechanic, and when you have that clutch stability use or daze a rezzer so your ally can finish his stomp, it feels very rewarding.

Back to the original point: you are not “wasting” your utility skills, you are saving them for a situation you know is coming and using them at a smart time. When someone goes down, you have more than a fighting advantage – you have an informational advantage too. You know exactly what the enemy is going to do to help their friend up. You know exactly how each class can interrupt or avoid your stomp. Why in the world, when you KNOW this situation is going to occur, guaranteed, would you not plan for it?

I think that the two paragraphs of yours, below, contradict each other. You didn’t say them one after the other, but I put them together for this post. If a skilled group “play well together and use their utilities well”, then they will have an advantage over those who do not. Same thing with downed state, whichever side better uses their abilities to control the downed state of both themselves and their opponents will have an advantage. But then you say that using such utilities is wasting them. I don’t get it.

Sansarah.3076:

Well, yes? If a skilled group play well together and use their utility’s well. Why shouldn’t they be able to take out larger numbers? Do you prefer the zerg > skill mentality?

We’ve come back to my point exactly, enforcing a stomp shouldn’t be reliant on having to use an elite / utility skill when rezzing needs neither.

Last small point: Rezzing does need those things, I interrupt rezzers all the time, it has gotten me and my allies hundreds of kills.

OP, I think one of the problems is that you’re viewing a downed player as “defeated” and being upset that the defeat is being taken away from you if they get up. A player isn’t dead until they’re dead, if all you do is get them to downed then you haven’t won yet. That’s like taking a thief down to 50% HP and then getting upset that they were able to use their utilities to escape the fight. Downed is part of the game and you need to plan for it if you expect to win in a tough fight.

Vilkata.4725:

OP, I think one of the problems is that you’re viewing a downed player as “defeated” and being upset that the defeat is being taken away from you if they get up. A player isn’t dead until they’re dead, if all you do is get them to downed then you haven’t won yet. That’s like taking a thief down to 50% HP and then getting upset that they were able to use their utilities to escape the fight. Downed is part of the game and you need to plan for it if you expect to win in a tough fight.

Nah… That’s not his point at all… his point is that if there are enough people in a group, it is trivial to res before there is any possibility of someone getting finished off from downed to dead. At that point, unless you’re getting hit by well timed interrupts (as stated above) the amount of skill needed is trivial. You just hit the ‘F’ key whenever you see the message pop up.

lettucemode.3789:

I think that the two paragraphs of yours, below, contradict each other. If a skilled group “play well together and use their utilities well”, then they will have an advantage over those who do not. Same thing with downed state, whichever side uses their abilities to control the downed state of both themselves and their opponents will have an advantage. But then at the same time you say that using such utilities is wasting them. I don’t get it.

Sansarah.3076:

Well, yes? If a skilled group play well together and use their utility’s well. Why shouldn’t they be able to take out larger numbers? Do you prefer the zerg > skill mentality?

We’ve come back to my point exactly, enforcing a stomp shouldn’t be reliant on having to use an elite / utility skill when rezzing needs neither.

Okey, I see your point indeed, we are quite different as players. I do not enjoy the downed state, like stated in my original post.

For my own view, yes I know all to well about using utilities to stomp someone, but for me. Downed state is a bad implemented mechanic to blow immunities or whatever, since it’s so easy to get out of. if I have to use it to stomp someone, at least when fighting larger numbers, it’s a utility badly used in my eyes.

On even terms of course, I agree with you, or in certain situations where you want parts of the opposing group stop to rez while you kite the rest.

For instance if they get rallied, Elementalists use mist form, Thieves blink, they get rezzed by healing or signet, you have wasted that utility for nothing. I can agree that it’s a skill in itself to not use it in vain, but it does happen.

I’m simply saying that there should be other options to finishing off downed ppl. Or a better mechanic, but something at least.

Vilkata.4725:

OP, I think one of the problems is that you’re viewing a downed player as “defeated” and being upset that the defeat is being taken away from you if they get up. A player isn’t dead until they’re dead, if all you do is get them to downed then you haven’t won yet. That’s like taking a thief down to 50% HP and then getting upset that they were able to use their utilities to escape the fight. Downed is part of the game and you need to plan for it if you expect to win in a tough fight.

Nah, what I’m upset about is how easy it is to get out of the downed state. While everyone agrees that you should use utilities to get the flag down. Even then they aren’t guaranteed to be gone from the fight as there is no release timer.

That’s what I got a problem with.

Sansarah.3076:

Vilkata.4725:

OP, I think one of the problems is that you’re viewing a downed player as “defeated” and being upset that the defeat is being taken away from you if they get up. A player isn’t dead until they’re dead, if all you do is get them to downed then you haven’t won yet. That’s like taking a thief down to 50% HP and then getting upset that they were able to use their utilities to escape the fight. Downed is part of the game and you need to plan for it if you expect to win in a tough fight.

Nah, what I’m upset about is how easy it is to get out of the downed state. While everyone agrees that you should use utilities to get the flag down. Even then they aren’t guaranteed to be gone from the fight as there is no release timer.

That’s what I got a problem with.

EDIT: Sorry if this post isn’t related to what I’m replying to. I went on a bit of a tangent.

You don’t have to use utilities, though I agree they are the best way to secure stomps or revives.

To help secure stomps: Mesmers can shatter their illusions for invulnerability. Necros, with enough boon duration, can toggle DS to gain enough stability to cover the stomp. If you place Blind on the downed opponent, which can come through weapon skills or combo fields, their interrupt will miss (works on necros, warriors, guardians, engineers, and rangers). There’s a trait where Eles can gain stability for a few seconds when attuning to earth, and attuning doesn’t break the stomp animation. Thieves can go invisible with dagger offhand. There may be more, I don’t know the classes too well.

To interrupt or stop revives: Necros have warhorn 4, an AoE daze, and staff 5, a fear mark. Mesmers can shatter their illusions to daze. Warriors can Hundred Blades right on top of the downed person. Guardians have lots of pushback skills. Thieves can burst the rezzer safely since they’re not moving. Eles have interrupts and pushbacks too. Engineers probably have some crazy cool things, I don’t know.

To help secure revives: lots of classes have on-revive or on-reviving traits they can take to create some sort of hinderance for the enemy who is stomping. All the interrupts I listed above work too.

I would at least like the length of the finisher to be reduced.

DtC.4806:

a PROPERLY defended hills is the hardest keep to take, there are so many choke points this should never fall if its fully upgraded and loaded with siege. I have thrown 80 people at it with multiple strategies against 10, no luck, even 12 golems got wiped to siege that eles cannot touch and no one can see.

bay is the easiest

From a different thread…. But… Here…. This is where I like my success against amazing odds. Not on the road to the keeps, but when you’re actually defending/taking a keep.

JaironKalach.4938:

Not on the road to the keeps, but when you’re actually defending/taking a keep.

Like I said, we all have different playstyles. Just remember that I am one of those who make sure that those defending keeps have supplies and those who are attacking don’t face keeps with an abundant amount of supplies.

Those who play like I do, also reduce the amount of reinforcements during those attacks. It may not be as noble as your job. But it’s what helps it all out in the end.

Nah… Don’t get me wrong. I think that right now, what you are doing is valuable. But I’m just concerned that if we put any more emphasis on it, (such as empowering infinite zerg-busting), then that’s all that WvWvW will become.

But, in the end, nothing will be done to this. Regardless of me venting off steam of annoyance or not. I simply felt like coming up with an idea to try and solve it. Arenanet won’t in the end do anything towards one of their core mechanics. Regardless of how many cry posts are made.

Like stated earlier, this game isn’t one designed for people like me. They care more for people like you JaironKalach, so don’t worry too much.

Meh… I tend to agree with their approach of not wanting to change core mechanics. Those tend to lead to really nasty unintended consequences. But…. I’m confused as to what your goal really is… So… Probably the most basic question. Is it your goal that it is possible to build a 5 man team that can defeat any team of the same size in true open field. (No choke points)

This is a tricky debate. Opinions are split. And there is no easy solutions. We don’t know if Anet is looking into it right now etc etc…

Personnally, I think that smaller groups should be able/have the possibility to make a differente even against larger groups. Not win, 50 players SHOULD roflstomp a group of 10, but the 10 man if well coordinated also SHOULD be able to weaken a larger group even if it means wiping in the process. It is true that Anet changes to WvW so far have only favored zerg like “tactics” and I would like to see changes to make the game enjoyable for those who like to run in smaller forces and still have the sentiment to accomplish something….other than delaying a zerg for 10 second or take sentries or circuling around getting supply camps that will be retaken 5 mins later.

Here’s my opinion on the subject: I don’t think the downed state is a bad thing in WvW, not at all. It goes with the paste of the game, when a player gets downed, it require a quick response from his team mate to secure his position and revive him. Where I think is the problem is the ability to rez from defeated (completely dead). But then again, it’s not a simple matter of simply removing the ability to rez defeated players.

Right now it’s a shame that huge groups can’t even be dented by a small ambushing party. My original opinion was to completely removed the option to rez defeated. But after talking about it with a couple of people (some agreeing some disagreeing) I understand that it’s not that simple. I can’t see a simple solution.

I’ve done mostly everything in WvW, been part of a zerg outnumbering our oponent, I’ve faced overwhelming numbers, I’ve solo and small team roamed, I’ve been escorting Dolyaks, I’ve been sniping Dolyaks……

A couple of changes I can see adding some finesse in the current WvW system would be:

1. Remove the ability to rez defeated BUT raise the health of downed state and maybe remove the ability to stealth or invulnarable kill shot. That would allow smaller group to at least weaken bigger groups. That would allow smaller group to make a difference…guerilla warfare if you want and force zerg to actually use strategies and be carefull…..but then again, I like when I can get rezed after dying from fall damage or by fellow players after I got ganked. It would also make defending natural territories (close to the spawn point) easier to defend (and retake) and enemy territories (far from the spawn point) harder to attack and defend. It’s not perfect but I could live with that.

2. Put a timer on defeated. For example, put a 5 mins timer where you can’t be revived from defeated. Good solution I think….makes players more carefull, allow smaller group to at least be able to slow down a zerg. New dynamic in tactics: Should I respawn and run back or wait there 5 mins and hope that my team mate can rez me. In that case I still would add some survivability from downed state to compensate.

3. Remove downed state and raise the max hp of everyone to compensate. Don’t really like this one though….in the long run, I don’t think it would change anything except allowing solo roamers to take on 2 or 3 guys if the player is good and the oponents are bad. But no difference in the ability for small group to affect larger group and it would not force the zergers to be more careful.

4. Not topic related, but for the Dolyak, something to make it harder to kill them (easier to defend) when someone has paid for guard escorting them. More health, permanent protection while the guards are up, Righteous Indignation on the Dolyak while the guards are up. Just something to make paying this upgrade relevent and not just a step towards more guards and upgraded guards.

There’s probably other ways to do it that I didn’t think about. I wanted to throw a couple of ideas out there in case some a good. I perticulary like my #2 idea (the timer)

Most of the frustration right now comes from the imbalance in server WvW populations created by the paid server transfer. And for the next month or so, it’ll still be the main reason for this kind of posts until the tiers balance again.

Jezebèl – TC

The funny part is, when people mention Anet giving power to skilled players by inc the aoe cap, taking or changing the downed state, ALLLLLLL the zergers and mindless people who don’t come from a hardcore pvp background cry and defend the HELL out of not changing it. You guys like it because it is EZ mode. Sansarah, my whole guild agrees with you man, we are complaining about the same crap. Anet just made this SO over the top zerg friendly, that even with a super well coordinated guild small man, little gets accomplished when facing 15+. It is a shame that the MMO population is full of EZ mode players no days. It is a combination of “call of duty die res die res die res” and WoW, QQ until the classes are made unbelievable advantageous to the rest of the players.

Spvp is point capturing for all you people who think that would be fun, you can go do it. Open pvp is the best form in MMO hands down. Open pvp doesn’t = ONLY zerging.

JaironKalach.4938:

Meh… I tend to agree with their approach of not wanting to change core mechanics. Those tend to lead to really nasty unintended consequences. But…. I’m confused as to what your goal really is… So… Probably the most basic question. Is it your goal that it is possible to build a 5 man team that can defeat any team of the same size in true open field. (No choke points)

My goal, hm a tough one, as no new games even come close to it.

I won’t bore you with my hardcore views about how pvp should be, lets just say I’m looking for something like UO.

In this game though, I would have liked to see:
- 5vs5 groups in open world pvp battling it out for sure.
- Much larger maps with choke points more spread out.
- Dying should mean something, currently you port back and can be back into the fight straight away without any feel off loss at all from dying, it kinda means nothing to die.
- Ranks like in UO, you die ( loose 10% of your points ) kills ( you gain a total of 10% of the players points devided on the damage you’ve done) so ranks are based on skill and no the amount of time you play.
- RvR rank system like in daoc, but by dying you loose points.

I can list a lot more goals I would have liked to see for this game, but none of that will come true anyway.

Sure…. But WvWvW doesn’t = ONLY open PvP. So, um… how about we try to figure out a solution that makes both of us happy, instead of resorting to chest thumping and the “I have skillz and you suck so they should build the game around me” argument. I don’t mind figuring out a way to make you or Sansarah happier in WvWvW, unless it’s a way that excludes me from being able to enjoy it. Both the suggestions you mentioned are terrible because of how absolutely overpowering they will become, and how they will switch the entire game to only folks like you and Sansarah. If that’s really your end goal (it sure sounds like it is, based on your need to insult the rest of us), then we can’t discuss. But if it isn’t your goal, why don’t you come up with some better suggestions that end up there.

Jscull.2514:

The funny part is, when people mention Anet giving power to skilled players by inc the aoe cap, taking or changing the downed state, ALLLLLLL the zergers and mindless people who don’t come from a hardcore pvp background cry and defend the HELL out of not changing it. You guys like it because it is EZ mode. Sansarah, my whole guild agrees with you man, we are complaining about the same crap. Anet just made this SO over the top zerg friendly, that even with a super well coordinated guild small man, little gets accomplished when facing 15+. It is a shame that the MMO population is full of EZ mode players no days. It is a combination of “call of duty die res die res die res” and WoW, QQ until the classes are made unbelievable advantageous to the rest of the players.

Spvp is point capturing for all you people who think that would be fun, you can go do it. Open pvp is the best form in MMO hands down. Open pvp doesn’t = ONLY zerging.

I have nothing to add to this post, except that I agree fully with you.

JaironKalach.4938:

Sure…. But WvWvW doesn’t = ONLY open PvP. So, um… how about we try to figure out a solution that makes both of us happy, instead of resorting to chest thumping and the “I have skillz and you suck so they should build the game around me” argument. I don’t mind figuring out a way to make you or Sansarah happier in WvWvW, unless it’s a way that excludes me from being able to enjoy it. Both the suggestions you mentioned are terrible because of how absolutely overpowering they will become, and how they will switch the entire game to only folks like you and Sansarah. If that’s really your end goal (it sure sounds like it is, based on your need to insult the rest of us), then we can’t discuss. But if it isn’t your goal, why don’t you come up with some better suggestions that end up there.

I don’t mind discussing these things, it’s what I’ve been trying to do. It’s hard to reach an agreement however when we are so different in play styles. It doesn’t mean however I’m not ready to talk about it.

Astaroth.5146:

Here’s my opinion on the subject: I don’t think the downed state is a bad thing in WvW, not at all. It goes with the paste of the game, when a player gets downed, it require a quick response from his team mate to secure his position and revive him. Where I think is the problem is the ability to rez from defeated (completely dead). But then again, it’s not a simple matter of simply removing the ability to rez defeated players.

Right now it’s a shame that huge groups can’t even be dented by a small ambushing party. My original opinion was to completely removed the option to rez defeated. But after talking about it with a couple of people (some agreeing some disagreeing) I understand that it’s not that simple. I can’t see a simple solution.

A simple possible solution I like is that you can’t rez players who have been stomped (spiked, killed with the finishing animation, whatever you call it). Players who died due to taking damage while down can still be rez’d.

This would allow small groups to make a dent in larger zergs with smart play, good communication, and good skill use.

Sansarah.3076:

- 5vs5 groups in open world pvp battling it out for sure.

I’m assuming that this one is the one that zergs are getting in the way of the most.
That is, even if you can find a group of 5 to go against, another 20 coming running in and smash you to bits. Interesting problem…. I’ll think about it and see if I can make a suggestion that we both could live with.

I have no issue with a downed state per-se. But I think there should be simply two buttons to press. 1 for your downed-attack (to rally), and 4 to cling to life. Get rid of the class-specific annoyances.

JaironKalach.4938:

Sure…. But WvWvW doesn’t = ONLY open PvP. So, um… how about we try to figure out a solution that makes both of us happy, instead of resorting to chest thumping and the “I have skillz and you suck so they should build the game around me” argument. I don’t mind figuring out a way to make you or Sansarah happier in WvWvW, unless it’s a way that excludes me from being able to enjoy it. Both the suggestions you mentioned are terrible because of how absolutely overpowering they will become, and how they will switch the entire game to only folks like you and Sansarah. If that’s really your end goal (it sure sounds like it is, based on your need to insult the rest of us), then we can’t discuss. But if it isn’t your goal, why don’t you come up with some better suggestions that end up there.

Here is a suggestion, you can run in your 30 mans. But give my 5 man the ABILITY to hit your 30 man, all kittening 30 if you are dumb enough to group in the same spot. Not 5. Fix culling, I want to know as the driver for my 5 man that I am driving into 30 guys, not 5 or 7 that needs to be multiplied by 3-5 so the real number is 30? There were zergs in every game since ever. But 8 mans, 5 mans, have taken down 30 based on the game being fair. Not in one of the others favor. IT IS ALL ZERG TOWN now…

JaironKalach.4938:

I’m assuming that this one is the one that zergs are getting in the way of the most.
That is, even if you can find a group of 5 to go against, another 20 coming running in and smash you to bits. Interesting problem…. I’ll think about it and see if I can make a suggestion that we both could live with.

Well the biggest two issues with doing five mans is for one indeed the zergs, the second is that even if you do get fights, there are mobs / npcs / towers / keeps everywhere, the maps are to small for it to really work.

Now, I do enjoy having choke points, but the fact that you rally off anything being killed, makes this hard.

Jscull.2514:

JaironKalach.4938:

Sure…. But WvWvW doesn’t = ONLY open PvP. So, um… how about we try to figure out a solution that makes both of us happy, instead of resorting to chest thumping and the “I have skillz and you suck so they should build the game around me” argument. I don’t mind figuring out a way to make you or Sansarah happier in WvWvW, unless it’s a way that excludes me from being able to enjoy it. Both the suggestions you mentioned are terrible because of how absolutely overpowering they will become, and how they will switch the entire game to only folks like you and Sansarah. If that’s really your end goal (it sure sounds like it is, based on your need to insult the rest of us), then we can’t discuss. But if it isn’t your goal, why don’t you come up with some better suggestions that end up there.

Here is a suggestion, you can run in your 30 mans. But give my 5 man the ABILITY to hit your 30 man, all kittening 30 if you are dumb enough to group in the same spot. Not 5. Fix culling, I want to know as the driver for my 5 man that I am driving into 30 guys, not 5 or 7 that needs to be multiplied by 3-5 so the real number is 30? There were zergs in every game since ever. But 8 mans, 5 mans, have taken down 30 based on the game being fair. Not in one of the others favor. IT IS ALL ZERG TOWN now…

Trying to get past to rage to something I can reason with, instead… Not that I know of a mechanic to enable this, but would be happy if you couldn’t hit my 30 man, as long as my 30 man couldn’t hit your 5 man, either? Or are you only going to be happy if you can go around farming zergs?

Sansarah.3076:

JaironKalach.4938:

I’m assuming that this one is the one that zergs are getting in the way of the most.
That is, even if you can find a group of 5 to go against, another 20 coming running in and smash you to bits. Interesting problem…. I’ll think about it and see if I can make a suggestion that we both could live with.

Well the biggest two issues with doing five mans is for one indeed the zergs, the second is that even if you do get fights, there are mobs / npcs / towers / keeps everywhere, the maps are to small for it to really work.

Now, I do enjoy having choke points, but the fact that you rally off anything being killed, makes this hard.

I still think that the best idea is to have the fifth map with no PvE elements and the environmental bonuses to “rebalance” things. Probably Cap’N’Hold without the PvE elements. No walls, ncps, etc… If you want to hold it, you leave a small team to hold it. Kind of a grander scale version of what sPvP is now, but open world style.

We dont want to farm zergs. We want to fight other 5 mans but those are few and far between. We still should be able to hit the 30 man. Why would you be worried? There is 30 of you guys. If we beat you then well played on our part. If we lose then cheers to your 30. BOTH SHOULD BE POSSIBLE.

Objective taking/ cap holding leads to zergs to the point, then cap, then zergs to the next point. We need an island with little to no mobs, no keeps, no objectives. PURELY killing if you go there.

Sansarah.3076:

Believe me, if there was a proper hardcore world pvp game. A lot of us would go there. Unfortunately, there is none. I would be one of the first to switch.

I guess you haven’t heard of Darkfall Unholy Wars. I ‘m assuming though that by hardcore you really mean hardcore and I have no idea what you mean by ’proper’ but it sounds highly opinion based.

The downed state has its place in WvWvW and players rezzing others are put in a very vulnerable position while rezzing.

I get frequent 1v1 and 1v2 all the time and manage to impale plenty of players. In fact, often in a 1v2 once I down one and see the other player go to rez it brings a grin to my face (unless they have traited for improved rezzing qualities).

In any case, downed state is here to stay although it may be tweaked as much as anything else. So your options are find another game or play SPvP if you cannot live with it in the absolute sense.

JaironKalach.4938:

Sansarah.3076:

JaironKalach.4938:

I’m assuming that this one is the one that zergs are getting in the way of the most.
That is, even if you can find a group of 5 to go against, another 20 coming running in and smash you to bits. Interesting problem…. I’ll think about it and see if I can make a suggestion that we both could live with.

Well the biggest two issues with doing five mans is for one indeed the zergs, the second is that even if you do get fights, there are mobs / npcs / towers / keeps everywhere, the maps are to small for it to really work.

Now, I do enjoy having choke points, but the fact that you rally off anything being killed, makes this hard.

I still think that the best idea is to have the fifth map with no PvE elements and the environmental bonuses to “rebalance” things. Probably Cap’N’Hold without the PvE elements. No walls, ncps, etc… If you want to hold it, you leave a small team to hold it. Kind of a grander scale version of what sPvP is now, but open world style.

Well a charming aspect of our gameplay is that we enjoy the risk of zergs. It’s hard to explain really, the thrill we get in pvp is facing uneven terms or facing someone that’s stronger than you are.
It’s a love hate relationship to zergs tbh. If we fights zergs though, we want tools to be able to handle it. Not necessarily beat the zerg, but maybe get away from it? Atleast have a chance to do something, to feel we didn’t just get rofl stomped.

Jscull.2514:

We dont want to farm zergs. We want to fight other 5 mans but those are few and far between. We still should be able to hit the 30 man. Why would you be worried? There is 30 of you guys. If we beat you then well played on our part. If we lose then cheers to your 30. BOTH SHOULD BE POSSIBLE.

Objective taking/ cap holding leads to zergs to the point, then cap, then zergs to the next point. We need an island with little to no mobs, no keeps, no objectives. PURELY killing if you go there.

Then you and I almost completely agree. The only thing I wonder about is if it should contribute to the overall server score…. I understand that you’re afraid it would encourage zerging. But perhaps not if there are Envivronmental effects that release AoE. However, if it did contribute to server score, then there wouldn’t be annoying people with blue icons over their head yelling at you in team chat to contribute.

I’m just going to put out some possible solutions.

I propose:

-Conditions now carry over into “downed state”.

-“Stomp” animation is accelerated by 33%, cutting it down to two seconds (down from 3)

-Multiple revivers stack multiplicatively rather than additively. So two healers revive at 150% speed, rather than 200% speed.

-Resurrecting is only possible while out of combat.

PS: Revive = healing downed state, resurrect = healing defeated state.

JaironKalach.4938:

Jscull.2514:

We dont want to farm zergs. We want to fight other 5 mans but those are few and far between. We still should be able to hit the 30 man. Why would you be worried? There is 30 of you guys. If we beat you then well played on our part. If we lose then cheers to your 30. BOTH SHOULD BE POSSIBLE.

Objective taking/ cap holding leads to zergs to the point, then cap, then zergs to the next point. We need an island with little to no mobs, no keeps, no objectives. PURELY killing if you go there.

Then you and I almost completely agree. The only thing I wonder about is if it should contribute to the overall server score…. I understand that you’re afraid it would encourage zerging. But perhaps not if there are Envivronmental effects that release AoE. However, if it did contribute to server score, then there wouldn’t be annoying people with blue icons over their head yelling at you in team chat to contribute.

EZ fix, killing becomes part of the score. People are afraid of that because Doors dont fire back. Whole issue here is the is a GIANT gap b/w skill lvls in mmos now. Old timers who ran what we grew up on with consequential deaths and skill based fighting. New players (past 6-7 years) who have grown up on ezier modes of fighting. i.e stealth up every 2 seconds….3 buttons to kill someone….14 ports in a fight….CLONES! lol the list goes on and on and on. The underlying issue in all these threads, is the skill base is GAPPED like no other because of the age diff and skill diff in the population of mmos. I am all for allowing a “zerg to exist”. Like sansarah said, give us the ability to compete against it. The word compete doesnt mean win every time. Just compete. Right now, there is little to zero competing. Especially when your enemies dont even load.

Sureshot.6725:

I guess you haven’t heard of Darkfall Unholy Wars. I ‘m assuming though that by hardcore you really mean hardcore and I have no idea what you mean by ’proper’ but it sounds highly opinion based.

Wasn’t going to go into that area, but yeah, I played the first Darkfall for quite a while. There were flaws however, the movement felt clumbsy, bug abusers were horrible and everywhere, crappy fps mechanics, team play was flawed, skills was flawed, people could keep their chars after beta etc. etc. The game was released to early, as simple as that.

The game itself was awesome and I’m looking forward to the release of the new Darkfall (more polished I hope). I would have preferred it even more hardcore though.

I’m derailing here atm… Gonna stop now. :P

Sansarah.3076:

JaironKalach.4938:

Sansarah.3076:

JaironKalach.4938:

I’m assuming that this one is the one that zergs are getting in the way of the most.
That is, even if you can find a group of 5 to go against, another 20 coming running in and smash you to bits. Interesting problem…. I’ll think about it and see if I can make a suggestion that we both could live with.

Well the biggest two issues with doing five mans is for one indeed the zergs, the second is that even if you do get fights, there are mobs / npcs / towers / keeps everywhere, the maps are to small for it to really work.

Now, I do enjoy having choke points, but the fact that you rally off anything being killed, makes this hard.

I still think that the best idea is to have the fifth map with no PvE elements and the environmental bonuses to “rebalance” things. Probably Cap’N’Hold without the PvE elements. No walls, ncps, etc… If you want to hold it, you leave a small team to hold it. Kind of a grander scale version of what sPvP is now, but open world style.

Well a charming aspect of our gameplay is that we enjoy the risk of zergs. It’s hard to explain really, the thrill we get in pvp is facing uneven terms or facing someone that’s stronger than you are.
It’s a love hate relationship to zergs tbh. If we fights zergs though, we want tools to be able to handle it. Not necessarily beat the zerg, but maybe get away from it? Atleast have a chance to do something, to feel we didn’t just get rofl stomped.

Yeah…. The other thing that’s bouncing around in my head is the reason is some kind of localized outmanned buff… Maybe it ups the AoE… Maybe it has effects on resing downed players.

The problem I have with removing AoE cap completely is that it will lead to groups of 5 or so eles that run around wiping everything at a chokepoint. Not a meta I’m interested in shifting to.

Down state… I’m starting to waffle on this one a little bit. Particularly since the zerg likely has no interest in engaging with you, I’d rather that the encounter was just a non-event. We don’t squish you, you don’t annoy us.

While I don’t mind the idea that if a 30 man attacks at 5 man, the 5 man should be able to successfully defend itself or take enough with it, I don’t like the idea of skilled 5 mans deciding to spend their time hunting unskilled 30 mans.

While both of you may claim that you wouldn’t do that, I’m relatively certain that that would take over the meta. So…. how to enable one but not the other.

I do not agree with removing the downed state at all. Maybe you shouldn’t WVWVW solo… get some friends, it’s obviously not a solo event. It’s like saying you want to do explorable dungeons solo… it’s just not designed for that, so either get with the program or uninstall lol.

faztazkitten.7293:

I do not agree with removing the downed state at all. Maybe you shouldn’t WVWVW solo… get some friends, it’s obviously not a solo event. It’s like saying you want to do explorable dungeons solo… it’s just not designed for that, so either get with the program or uninstall lol.

Lol… Did you even read the thread?

faztazkitten.7293:

I do not agree with removing the downed state at all. Maybe you shouldn’t WVWVW solo… get some friends, it’s obviously not a solo event. It’s like saying you want to do explorable dungeons solo… it’s just not designed for that, so either get with the program or uninstall lol.

Go back to first post, read it again, come back, explain what you mean.

I never once stated that I’m playing solo or wanted downed state removed completely.

I actually think this is the simplest solution, for both wvw and sPVP

- Stomp cast time reduced to 2 seconds
- Stomp cannot be used while stealthed, mistform, DSed, etc
- Stability stomp still allowed since you can’t control if someone else gives you the boon

That’s it. We can see how it impacts everything else, but I expect it will solve a lot of issues.

Just think of downed state as a severe stun and get over it.

Giving everyone In combat Res was always a bad decision…

Even in Games like DAOC were you could keep ressing in combat, they gave you a massive penalty for being ressed…..

They also didn’t let any random person do it either..

Things like Downstate, AoE Caps, Nerfs to AoE damage, Narrow Maps is why you have such a prevalence of zergs in this game

Its also why 10+ year old games like DAOC are still superior vastly to the crap released today.

How about while downed zero dmg can be taken. No abilities other than a slow recovery SLOW. The only way to be rezzed in battle…is at an extremely slow pace by your teammates making it STUPID to rez you mid combat. Pretty much makes you dead, but still revivable if your other team wins for you.

xsorus- AMEN brother.

Xsorus.2507:

Giving everyone In combat Res was always a bad decision…

Even in Games like DAOC were you could keep ressing in combat, they gave you a massive penalty for being ressed…..

They also didn’t let any random person do it either..

Things like Downstate, AoE Caps, Nerfs to AoE damage, Narrow Maps is why you have such a prevalence of zergs in this game

Its also why 10+ year old games like DAOC are still superior vastly to the crap released today.

Again, nothing to add to this post, except I agree totally.

Dee Jay.2460:

I’m just going to put out some possible solutions.

I propose:

-Conditions now carry over into “downed state”.

-“Stomp” animation is accelerated by 33%, cutting it down to two seconds (down from 3)

-Multiple revivers stack multiplicatively rather than additively. So two healers revive at 150% speed, rather than 200% speed.

-Resurrecting is only possible while out of combat.

PS: Revive = healing downed state, resurrect = healing defeated state.

These all seem like good ideas, I would add that boons should carry over as well as conditions. I also like the idea someone else had of resurrect only working on people who died from damage, not people who died from being finished.

I say keep downed state as it is now. No need to change it.

I really think some of you are missing the larger issue here. There is a glaring inequity of consequences when a numerically smaller force engages a numerically larger one, whether it’s in the open field or attacking/defending objectives.

Right now, there are basically two end states. If you win, all of your losses of life are completely erased and it’s as if there was no battle or loss of life to begin with. If you lose, no matter how close you were to winning, none of the kills you got matter. In other words, as long as you can raise people from the dead, a larger force will always be favorable to a small force, regardless of the nature of what you’re doing, be it fighting in the open field or fighting over an objective. This is always the case. There is literally no reason not to bring more people. Winners win completely, losers lose completely. No consequences for the large group, annihilation for the smaller.

When the possibility of permanent death (relatively speaking – all that really means is you’re out of the fight for a few minutes while you run back from a waypoint) changes that dynamic. With permanent death, instead of having a black and white conclusion to an engagement, with total victory or defeat, you have a gradient of possible outcomes. Smaller forces will still have a harder time winning against larger ones – that’s fine, no one is asking for some kind of blatant advantage to beating zergs with smaller forces. But now, you may not win, but any kills you score will actually be meaningful. You can change what sort of opportunities the zerg has in a meaningful way. Hitting their 40 man zerg with your 10 man squad might inflict enough damage to prevent them from being able to steamroll a keep for lack of manpower and supply, for example. That’s a much richer experience, and much less frustrating for everyone involved. Zergs will still flatten small groups. But that is a much more acceptable experience to be on the losing side of if you know that those guys you killed wont be getting back up again.

Musty.3148:

This was probably stated but…

PLEASE get rid of mob rally. (I’d even argue get rid of rally from kill totally!)
No rez from Defeated state.
Force respawn with a timer when defeated.
Homogonize downed state abilities.
Make rezzing MUCH slower.

Or you could just get rid of the whole kitten thing!

I totally disagree with everything you suggested.

Mob rally is great.
Downed state is fine.
Res from defeated state is great.

The current downed mechanics are fine with the exception of players being able to stay in defeated state and spy on what is going on.

Musty.3148:

PLEASE get rid of mob rally. (I’d even argue get rid of rally from kill totally!)
No rez from Defeated state.
Force respawn with a timer when defeated.
Homogonize downed state abilities.
Make rezzing MUCH slower.

I agree.

Musty.3148:

PLEASE get rid of mob rally. (I’d even argue get rid of rally from kill totally!)
No rez from Defeated state.
Force respawn with a timer when defeated.
Homogonize downed state abilities.
Make rezzing MUCH slower.

And again, got nothing to add to this post. I agree fully.

The downed state is fine except it should be balanced between all classes. Some classes have it much easier when downed then others. The defeated state however should not allow ressurection in the field. A defeated person should be forced to recall to a waypoint and visit a Priest to fully reconnect body and soul before going back into battle. If you rezz that person in the field that person suffers a sever penalty and is only 1/2 as effective as he should be. Priests for each sect (grenth, melandru, dwayna, etc) are in each Citadel and can be added to keeps after waypoints are built as another keep upgrade.

Large battles should not be decided by which side can ressurect their people the fastest.

news flash, wvw is not a solo gametype