Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: hypehype.9047

hypehype.9047

The problem with 2-1-1 was that it didn’t incentivize the 2nd and 3rd place server to focus the 1st place server. For one, you’d need both servers focusing the 1st place server during the same scrimmage and how often is that realistically gonna happen? Secondly, whenever that does happen, only one of those two servers will be the beneficiary of it. The other gets nothing unless they are somehow able to keep it up for another 2 hour scrim and trade the win. But you’d need some serious coordination/collusion across both servers and we know most players don’t care enough to go down that road.

Additionally, most players don’t decide which server to attack based on the score. They make their decision based on which server they perceive to be stronger/weaker at the time or which one would provide better fights.

So what we had with 2-1-1 was a pretty ridiculous system where it was pointless for the two weaker servers to even play. Now with 5-4-3, if you can’t get 1st place during a given scrim, there’s at least a reason to still play and get 2nd.

again this is wrong.

what ends up happing with 5-4-3 or 3-2-1 is the server in second place does everyting they can to remain second, so the best way to remain 2nd is to attack the server in third, even when the 1st place server has capped your whole BL as long as you score more than the server in 3rd you still get your points. this results in the 3rd place server constantly getting tagged teamed from start to finish.

another problem with 5-4-3 or 3-2-1 is score manipulation via night capping.
if the night capping server(which is usually 1st due to night capping) sees that the server in 2nd place is catching them in points, they will deliberately make them come third in the skirmish to widen the gap.

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Dayra.7405

Dayra.7405

I wonder about the effect 5-4-3 will have on Glicko and Match-Making.

I think the looks closer is something Glicko will take over, as (if I remember correctly) Glicko-Score is based on the Quotient.
So in 5-4-3 the winner has only 5/3 = 1.66 times as many points than the looser,
while in 3-2-1 the winner had 3/1 = 3 times as many points than the looser.

I guess this let the server come closer in Glicko points.

If the server come closer in Glicko, the matches are more likely to contain server far away from each other.

So if the 5-4-3 runs longer, I guess matches like e.g. 1 vs 12 become more more frequent than they are today.

Ceterum censeo SFR esse delendam!

(edited by Dayra.7405)

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Korgov.7645

Korgov.7645

If the server come closer in Glicko, the matches are more likely to contain server far away from each other.

So if the 5-4-3 runs longer, I guess matches like e.g. 1 vs 12 become more more frequent than they are today.

Can you show some mathematics to back up those statements?

While I at some level agree with your reasoning, I’d expect the difference will be too small to notice.

The random factor in the match-making probably overshadows this effect. Not to mention ANet’s manual adjustments, world relinking, Glicko deviation and volatility resets and transfers.

Sulkshine – Mesmer
This won’t hurt [Much]
Ring of Fire

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: JTGuevara.9018

JTGuevara.9018

I think we all need to try to keep things in perspective here. Scoring in WvW is the symptom, not the disease. The disease is GLICKO.

But for topic’s sake, let me share my piece on scoring. I’m loving all the math lessons and the tut-tutting around here. Although, I can tell, the lot of you have been skimping on percents! (That’s ok, we’ve all done it!)

I support the scoring system in the sense that it is a temporary way and easier to help balance matchups. However, let’s not kid ourselves. It’s not enough to solve the core problems in WvW. With respect to 3-2-1 and 2-1-1, I’m going to settle this right now with simple arithmetic. No matter which of the two scoring systems you have, the top server always gets half the points! That means 2nd and 3rd are fighting for scraps either way!

3+2+1 = 6 (50% 25% 16.6%) 2+1+1 = 4(50% 25% 25%)

Let’s add 5-4-3 to the equation.

5+4+3 = 12
(41% 33% 25%)

In 3-2-1, the winner has 3 times or +33% the points as 3rd.
In 2-1-1, the winner has 2 times or +25% the points as 3rd.
In 5-4-3, the winner has 1.66 times or +16.6% the points as 3rd.

Now here we have something interesting. Momentum has shifted to 2nd and 3rd. The bottom two servers now get a bigger piece of the pie. More importantly, the winner’s glicko decreases. Basically, scoring changes—like server links—are just more glicko manipulation. However, with respect to WvW, scoring changes are a scalpel whereas server links are like a sledgehammer!

(edited by JTGuevara.9018)

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Xenesis.6389

Xenesis.6389

Aaaaaand you guys are still arguing over the numbers when the important thing is how teams fight under the two different settings. You can try and hand out more points to 2nd and 3rd from 321 to 543, but it makes no difference with 1st slapping whomever they want around.

what ends up happing with 5-4-3 or 3-2-1 is the server in second place does everyting they can to remain second, so the best way to remain 2nd is to attack the server in third, even when the 1st place server has capped your whole BL as long as you score more than the server in 3rd you still get your points. this results in the 3rd place server constantly getting tagged teamed from start to finish.

another problem with 5-4-3 or 3-2-1 is score manipulation via night capping.
if the night capping server(which is usually 1st due to night capping) sees that the server in 2nd place is catching them in points, they will deliberately make them come third in the skirmish to widen the gap.

Exactly this, we’ve had four years to see this over and over again. 543 is not going to magically change how players play for 1st 2nd 3rd in 321.

Another derailing post. ^^
North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed.
“Game over man, Game Over!” – RIP Bill

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

Aaaaaand you guys are still arguing over the numbers when the important thing is how teams fight under the two different settings. You can try and hand out more points to 2nd and 3rd from 321 to 543, but it makes no difference with 1st slapping whomever they want around.

what ends up happing with 5-4-3 or 3-2-1 is the server in second place does everyting they can to remain second, so the best way to remain 2nd is to attack the server in third, even when the 1st place server has capped your whole BL as long as you score more than the server in 3rd you still get your points. this results in the 3rd place server constantly getting tagged teamed from start to finish.

another problem with 5-4-3 or 3-2-1 is score manipulation via night capping.
if the night capping server(which is usually 1st due to night capping) sees that the server in 2nd place is catching them in points, they will deliberately make them come third in the skirmish to widen the gap.

Exactly this, we’ve had four years to see this over and over again. 543 is not going to magically change how players play for 1st 2nd 3rd in 321.

^, and no matter what both 1st and 2nd will team against the 3rd and weaker in population server so they can ktrain their stuff, or make 2nd placed server ktrain empty 3rd server home bl.

ANet likes the ktrain model of capping emptys structures, looks like its very skillfull in their minds… no wonder even pvp did well in esl….
WvW will be always a ktrain like EOTM where people they are mor skillfull than the eotm ktrain… just because well they fight in a “organized” blob withmore gimmicks.

@Anet, so after 543 dont work what will be the new score????

… and disable EOTM for one week…

1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.

(edited by Aeolus.3615)

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Sarika.3756

Sarika.3756

All the talk of ktraining just isn’t my experience of WvW. Blobs? Check. Hitting a t3 structure specifically to get the enemy to show up and defend? Check. But pvd on empty maps? On the rare occasions I see that, I log off.

So for those of you complaining about ktrains, can you clarify a) what timezone you play and what region, and b) what your vision of the perfect WvW looks like?

Bonus points for something more coherent than “no siege” or “everything is always paper”

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485

What they need to do is give proportional PPT and PPK point bonus to the losing servers so that they can catch up during the week.

It should be hard to stay the winning server, you should be required to fight until the very end.

When the scores get closer together the bonus point % decreases.
The score should be as close as possible until the very end so that WvW doesn’t become a snooze fest when the weekend is over.

Also PPK needs to become more dynamic. When a player does something special, like gets 10 kills in a row or a lot of kills in a short amount of time the server and player should reward you with extra points. There is a lot of room for creativity there, specially if you implement a sort of group achievement system with combo fields.

Also WvW needs a guild and player ladder.

WvW ranks should influence your rewards.

Merge all servers, do this above, add a third borderland, bring back the orbs and quaggans on Alpine and you’ll save WvW.

(edited by Xillllix.3485)

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: mixxed.5862

mixxed.5862

I don’t see any advantage in 5 / 4 / 3 over 3 / 2 / 1.

I’m definitely not the first to suggest this…

3 / 2 / 1 in the night and morning
6 / 4 / 2 in the afternoon and late evening
9 / 6 / 3 in the evening when matches are most active

That would be a change bringing better match-up quality as it balances match-ups more on what is most important to the majority of players : the active hours. It would reduce the importance of coverage a bit further and add to fairness. It’s hard to tell if matches will be closer, however I’m convinced they will be better at the busy times of day.
The major disadvantage is that people will be salty no matter how they may set the time frames.

Also I really like that notion of giving some bonus points to the losing server once they win a skirmish.

(edited by mixxed.5862)

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

The irony being that 2-1-1 actually makes nightcapping contribute more to PPT than 5-4-3 or 3-2-1.

You mean contribute more to the Glicko rating adjustments, not PPT.

If you compare the nightcapper team and the second team, yes, 2:1 ratio is greater than 5:4 or 3:2. If you compare the 1st team vs the 3rd team, then the ratios are 5:3, 2:1 and 3:1. In that sense the night skirmishes (and any other skirmishes) are more valuable to win under 2-1-1 than under 5-4-3.

It’s a side effect, though PPT is still the wrong word I’ll admit; it ends up contributing more to a given score than the other models is more what I really meant. I probably should have been more explicit in my wording, but the glicko adjustment being based on the scoring is pretty much a direct consequence.

Overall, general correctness all around.

@Those talking about the philosophy now all of a sudden being the leading factor in why 2-1-1 is okay:

Really, the arguments about the philosophy of 2-1-1 favoring a team-up don’t really hold much merit. The only time it’s worthwhile for both servers to team up for more than a very short period where the gains for both are equal (thus different objectives entirely) and would need to be surefire wins… in which case, it was inevitable anyways since the #1 server would defend from one of the assaults, anyways, which ends up just giving one of the “teamed” servers a lead.

In which case, there’d have just been no merit to teaming up.

Not to mention, under ideal circumstances of the team-up where each server alternates first and third-place skirmish results for the entire week (it doesn’t really work this way, fun fact), both end up taking a 50% win over the “first place” server which results in artificial tier gain for both and makes matchups swing with tier hopping just like the pre-skirmish/link system. Then all three servers from terrible matchups and massive ganks implode and the players move to T1 when they open.

Which of course brings more people out of the lower tiers and makes more people in the lower tiers quit WvW, consolidating links, and emphasizing further transferring to T1 from others.

As a result of perfect teamwork, anyways, would you rather be a T2/T3 server in T2 fighting a T1/T2 server and struggling with occasional assistance from another T2 server, or be a T2/T3 server fighting two strictly-T1 servers solely because you worked alongside another crowd, which you won’t get support from anyone when you actually rise tiers because said servers already hold their own?

5/4/3 in such a circumstance puts all three servers now in perfect operating conditions at 4-4-4 or tied evenly, suggesting the “first place” server will stay exactly where it is and each server ends up with scores determined solely by PPK. Although, more realistically given a few first-place wins, they will eventually rise up tiers while the other two settle in their respective ones and enjoy what is an objectively more-evenly-scored matchup than what 2-1-1 can mathematically provide.

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Xenesis.6389

Xenesis.6389

Oh man, I wonder how many on BG came back for the the change.

Meanwhile on TC at 45mins into reset, has a queue of 2 on tcbl and 0 everywhere else. XD

Edit: hold on it went to 3 as I was finishing this post.

P.S The scoring isn’t the problem with wvw at the moment.

Edit2: it went to 4 as I finished my PS sentence.

Another derailing post. ^^
North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed.
“Game over man, Game Over!” – RIP Bill

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Dayra.7405

Dayra.7405

If the server come closer in Glicko, the matches are more likely to contain server far away from each other.

So if the 5-4-3 runs longer, I guess matches like e.g. 1 vs 12 become more more frequent than they are today.

Can you show some mathematics to back up those statements?

JTGuevara.9018 did a good job to explain the basics.

lets assume 3 server played in 2-1-1 and the result was
A won all 84 skirmishes
B and C where 2 and 3 each 50% of the time
Thats 168:84:84
now the same 3 server play in 5-4-3 and the skirmish result is the same, the final result will be 420:294.294

As Server A did not got a 2 : 1 as in the week before but only a 1.42 : 1 it looses Glicko (did not matched it’s Glicko expectations), while Server B and C where better than their expectation so they gain Glicko.
Currently the NA-Glicko-Range is 420 points in 2:1:1 system, if I divide that by 2 and multiply it by 1.42, I get 300 as the expected new distance between 1st and last server in the 5-4-3 system.

So range shrinks to 3/4 resulting in “wild matches” are 4/3 or 33% more likely.

Deviation is around 160 (http://mos.millenium.org/na/matchups), so random roll maximum is approx. 80. So matches with servers up to 160 points away are likely, matches with servers 320 points away are possible (but not very likely) due to match allignment (assume first and last are 300 away, 1st rolls -80, everyone above 150 rolls +80, everyone below 150 rolls -80, except the last that rolls +80, afterwards, there is no server left between 1st and last, so they may end up in the same match)

Ceterum censeo SFR esse delendam!

(edited by Dayra.7405)

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Korgov.7645

Korgov.7645

So range shrinks to 3/4 resulting in “wild matches” are 4/3 or 33% more likely.

It is not that straightforward. The leaderboard doesn’t immediately shrink to those values. The underlying formulas are quite complex; GW2 treats each matchup as 6 Glicko matches. And all the transfers, linking, resets, randomness and game mechanics cause extra turbulence.

For example let’s look at NA T1: BG v Mag v TC with BG winning all skirmishes and Mag at second place half the time. The victory points are as you said.
The current ratings are: 2019.6664 v 2060.1248 v 1839.9296
The new 2-1-1 ratings: 2085.6452 v 1946.9204 v 1886.4536
The new 5-4-3 ratings: 2041.1317 v 1969.9772 v 1910.3349

One would have expected the new 5-4-3 ratings to be more closer together. The new 5-4-3 rating are closer together than 2-1-1 ratings as expected.

(Note! I didn’t have the real deviation and volatility values so I just put 200 and 0.06 for all teams.)

Edit: Re-calculated the new ratings using the real deviation and volatility from the leaderboard. Thanks Dayra.

Sulkshine – Mesmer
This won’t hurt [Much]
Ring of Fire

(edited by Korgov.7645)

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Dayra.7405

Dayra.7405

Not in 1 match, but over time, i.e. several matches, and yes, to lazy for an exact computation (only Pi * Daumen). Deviation and Votality are on the Leaderboard.

Ceterum censeo SFR esse delendam!

(edited by Dayra.7405)

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Hesacon.8735

Hesacon.8735

A few people asked to let it play out to see what happens. For the past two weeks TC has basically not played in T1 and will gain glicko points each of the two weeks.

This is exacerbated by the fact JQ has rolled into T2 each week and shed glicko points to FA and SoS. T2 is a good fight, but I think we can agree that T1 is not a good matchup.

Since 5-4-3 wants to push each tier closer to each other, it makes it difficult to move tiers.

Many had argued that 5-4-3 would better show the quality of servers, but this is clearly not working out with TC gaining glicko and solidifying themselves in T1 despite not having a good couple weeks.

This Friday are the new linkings, and this problem is only going to get worse.

So going back to my original post: can we please change back to either 2-1-1, or something that behaves very much like 2-1-1? (100-55-45, for example)

Changing from a glicko system to anything else is going to require a lot of development time for very little actual gain. Restoring a scoring system that allows for good matchups can be done now with almost no development time needed besides changing a number in a table.

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Digikid.7230

Digikid.7230

5-4-3 is keeping the weakest server in uncompetitive matchups- look at TC gaining rating this week when they’re getting decimated in T1.

Some guy on a bunch of servers, mostly Mag
Former top 50 spvp engi main.

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

I think scoring should be 5-5-5 and players should get a weekly in-game congratulatory mail from anet with 100 gems.

Sample letter…

Dear AWESOME Player,

We, at Arenanet, would like to thank you for making wvw great again! Without you this would not have been possible!

We are so very proud of your participation, that we have included 100 gems this week for FREE! Enjoy!

Sincerely,

MO and the team!

New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro

221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.

(edited by Swagger.1459)

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

Many had argued that 5-4-3 would better show the quality of servers, but this is clearly not working out with TC gaining glicko and solidifying themselves in T1 despite not having a good couple weeks.

Why would it show the quality? Who on earth argued that?

The skirmish score isnt the problem.

The reason dominating server keep dominating is because war score is completely out of order since the tier bonuses was introduced.

I present you with two random instances. Just look at it. Look at it

On the left, the difference is 5 camps + SM vs 3 towers and 1 one keep, it should be fairly close with 22 vs 20 points. Yes, Red should actually score higher than Green at base points, but it would be neck to neck literally. PPK would have a big impact. But no, Green dominate with +30 points due to tiers and their keeps will also be heavily defended in comparison because that’s all tier bonuses.

On the right, it gets far worse. At base points, Green would be 4 towers, 1 keep and 1 SM ahead of Red. That’s 16+8+12 points, or a mere 36 points. They are are an impossible to catch 100 points ahead instead because all that is freaking fortified objectives no weak server can even take with less people. And it gets even worse, oh yes! Look at poor Blue here. With two more towers yet 1 less keep, they should literally be at the same PPT as Red. Yet they are 35 points behind.

This is what’s wrong with WvW.

When Anet introduced tier bonuses, they kittened up WvW.

Changing skirmish points is irrevalant without Anet unkittening warscore.

Attachments:

(edited by Dawdler.8521)

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: jamesdolla.3954

jamesdolla.3954

Can we change this system back to 211 or 321? this was a horrible idea and the OP was right on the money

Native Maguuman

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485

Many had argued that 5-4-3 would better show the quality of servers, but this is clearly not working out with TC gaining glicko and solidifying themselves in T1 despite not having a good couple weeks.

Why would it show the quality? Who on earth argued that?

The skirmish score isnt the problem.

The reason dominating server keep dominating is because war score is completely out of order since the tier bonuses was introduced.

I present you with two random instances. Just look at it. Look at it

On the left, the difference is 5 camps + SM vs 3 towers and 1 one keep, it should be fairly close with 22 vs 20 points. Yes, Red should actually score higher than Green at base points, but it would be neck to neck literally. PPK would have a big impact. But no, Green dominate with +30 points due to tiers and their keeps will also be heavily defended in comparison because that’s all tier bonuses.

On the right, it gets far worse. At base points, Green would be 4 towers, 1 keep and 1 SM ahead of Red. That’s 16+8+12 points, or a mere 36 points. They are are an impossible to catch 100 points ahead instead because all that is freaking fortified objectives no weak server can even take with less people. And it gets even worse, oh yes! Look at poor Blue here. With two more towers yet 1 less keep, they should literally be at the same PPT as Red. Yet they are 35 points behind.

This is what’s wrong with WvW.

When Anet introduced tier bonuses, they kittened up WvW.

Changing skirmish points is irrevalant without Anet unkittening warscore.

Hey anyone remember the Orb? It was a fun mechanic to score points, and it wasn’t just a number change. I guess Anet would actually need to work to bring it back.

https://youtu.be/QsxYyKZu3tw

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

Xillllix.3485, doubt that.. its was removed for a reason.

1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: zinkz.7045

zinkz.7045

Because scoring matters in a game mode where population / coverage are completely imbalanced and “winning” is basically meaningless to anyone with an IQ higher than room temperature.

(edited by zinkz.7045)

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485, doubt that.. its was removed for a reason.

It was removed “temporarily” because it was bugged. They were supposed to fix it and bring it back.

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Dayra.7405

Dayra.7405


I get 300 as the expected new distance between 1st and last server in the 5-4-3 system.

So range shrinks to 3/4 resulting in “wild matches” are 4/3 or 33% more likely.

So now it happen, distance between first and last shrink to 225 pts in NA (350 in EU) and matches get wilder as well (2 vs 2nd last in NA)

I think 3-2-1 scoring was better than this. Wilder matches are to single sided.

PS: As the 5-4-3 scoring is still in use I would not call this necroing a thread, but as resuming a discussion now that reality has even outperformed it’s prediction.

Ceterum censeo SFR esse delendam!

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: apharma.3741

apharma.3741


I get 300 as the expected new distance between 1st and last server in the 5-4-3 system.

So range shrinks to 3/4 resulting in “wild matches” are 4/3 or 33% more likely.

So now it happen, distance between first and last shrink to 225 pts in NA (350 in EU) and matches get wilder as well (2 vs 2nd last in NA)

I think 3-2-1 scoring was better than this. Wilder matches are to single sided.

PS: As the 5-4-3 scoring is still in use I would not call this necroing a thread, but as resuming a discussion now that reality has even outperformed it’s prediction.

Necro is OP pls nerf.

Aren’t we getting relinking soon? So everything will descend into chaos again so we won’t be any better being in a 321 system as it will take an age for servers to drift to where they should be and then poof, relink. So top server suddenly becomes desolate as it no longer has 2 linkings and 321 ensures it takes 2 months to get in a match up where it isn’t roflstomped. Surprise, relink, roll dice again and get the lube out.

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Dayra.7405

Dayra.7405

Good point I forgot about relinking

Ceterum censeo SFR esse delendam!

Please don't change scoring to 5-4-3

in WvW

Posted by: Hesacon.8735

Hesacon.8735

When we were 2-1-1, the matchmaking took care of itself. With 5-4-3, anet has to micromanage the glicko to break up bad matchups.

This was the original argument I made two months ago before the switch happened.