Please enforce boon/condi caps~

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

I think raising the cap for conditions was great for pve, but not so much for wvw. The duration of some condis/boons are out of control as well. It leads to spammy and mindless gameplay. Watch some gvg’s from this year, and now watch some gvg’s from 2 years ago. The landscape has changed drastically, imo not for the better. Here are 2 lists off the top of my head that would go a long way to improving the quality of fights and wvw in general:

Boons (guard auto aegis and might blast idk idk)
Regen, swiftness, might, fury 20 seconds
Protection, retal, vigor, aegis 10 seconds
Stability, resistance, quickness 5 seconds
Conditions
Bleed, poison, vuln 25 stacks 20 seconds
Blind, burn, torment, confusion, cripple, weakness 15 stacks 10 seconds
Immob, fear, slow, chill 5 seconds

I would go one step further and allow boons and condis to run out of their current durations if the stack/duration cap is reached. This would prevent people from simply spamming skills to keep things maxed. It could also decrease lag since there are less calculations to make.

Any who, these 2 cents, they are mine.

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Posted by: Cevni.2049

Cevni.2049

snippled again

I disagree with you about this. Boons and condis as a concept are generally not a problem with a few specific exceptions (confusion/burn/torment and resistance). What really makes fights braindead is the one passive defense that every class has access to, the downed state. Also the AoE caps for sure doesn’t help. Changing boon/condi caps would just solidify a burst meta in small scale and make stacking even more beneficial for large scale, neither of which is preferable.

Off-topic: I am not disagreeing with you just to be disagreeable.

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

snipples

They are a huge problem lol. Stacking 20 seconds of resistance and quickness with boonshare mesmer or getting epidemic’d for 50 bleeds 30 poisons 20 burns is not really conducive to any sort of skilled or enjoyable game play.

I could agree to a downed state nerf by reducing the invuln frames and removing the complete condi clear.

Boon and condi caps wouldn’t change anything for small scale since with less people the caps are hardly ever reached. Stacking would be extremely less beneficial for large groups if once a boon cap was reached it would be unable to be refreshed until it ran out of tics. Would hopefully improve the lag problem too!

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Posted by: Cevni.2049

Cevni.2049

snipples

snippling

Epidemic is already capped at 25 stacks, has a rather long cast time and needs a big setup. Personally I have never been on the wrong end of it, and I do play quite a bit WvW (though I avoid joining up with blobs, that kitten’s boring). As I said believe some conditions or the skills applying them needs changing. Resistance in itself is a completely broken boon, at least make it a buff (like superspeed) or make it not be 100% reduced.

Calculating a cap, when something can be reapplied etc can in many instances need more cpu power than just applying it. What would instantly fix the lag issues is no AoE-caps (on damaging skills, still 5 on supportive skills) and no downed state. No calculating who should get hit and the zerg fights would be over much much quicker.

What you said about removing invuln fram and free condi clear would be a good step in the right direction though.

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Posted by: Impulsive.8240

Impulsive.8240

You reminded me of a necro who was sitting on a mortar shot to stack burning and then transferring them to someone else, lo and behold, you’re dead!

Similarly with other transferable condis that those necros use all the time, especially against a rev on the enemy. At a certain point, I literally got all possible condis on my rev during a blob vs blob fight.

I think a proper adjustment towards the maximum number of stacks needs to be implemented if the duration and damage cap will not be changed. Otherwise you will see more people just doing that mindless play with stacking 24 bleeds or 17 burning from a guard and you will drop dead in a second.

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Posted by: Cevni.2049

Cevni.2049

snip

Well if you’ve ever fought me chances are I have indeed done that, but I personally just consider it a good counter to mindless mortaring,.That rev got bad condi clear is a fact, this is something they should probably address (counters are alright but rev not being able to survive even 1 condi burst is a bit lame).

I hardly see how standing in mortars to transfer it is mindless, you see an opportunity and seize it, that is playing well (this is the price you pay for stronger siege, this was never a problem with older mortars). Burnguards are currently over the top yes kinda like all other burst builds, a fix to class mechanics seems more appropriate than changing a core mechanic of the game, given how many other builds are more problematic especially (including some non-boon reliant power builds).

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(edited by Cevni.2049)

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Posted by: gebrechen.5643

gebrechen.5643

You reminded me of a necro who was sitting on a mortar shot to stack burning and then transferring them to someone else, lo and behold, you’re dead!

Which is very clever. Why would you want to punish this? It’s by far better gameplay then to headbutt and 100blade someone.

Some people die on epidemic, other have skill.
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Posted by: Siphon.8405

Siphon.8405

You reminded me of a necro who was sitting on a mortar shot to stack burning and then transferring them to someone else, lo and behold, you’re dead!

Similarly with other transferable condis that those necros use all the time, especially against a rev on the enemy. At a certain point, I literally got all possible condis on my rev during a blob vs blob fight.

I think a proper adjustment towards the maximum number of stacks needs to be implemented if the duration and damage cap will not be changed. Otherwise you will see more people just doing that mindless play with stacking 24 bleeds or 17 burning from a guard and you will drop dead in a second.

I have a question for you sir.

If you’re idea is to nerf condition based damage do you also have ideas on how to nerf Power based damage?

The reason I say this is you full well know as soon as you limit the amount of damage a condition based player can produce, NOBODY will play it. EVERYONE will play power builds…

I ask this because I for one can stack 20 stacks of bleed on someone if they don’t clear it on my condition thief.

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Posted by: Jeknar.6184

Jeknar.6184

Similarly with other transferable condis that those necros use all the time, especially against a rev on the enemy. At a certain point, I literally got all possible condis on my rev during a blob vs blob fight.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pain_Absorption

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

Similarly with other transferable condis that those necros use all the time, especially against a rev on the enemy. At a certain point, I literally got all possible condis on my rev during a blob vs blob fight.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pain_Absorption

Ya they made that way too required to play in wvw. Like having a gear level requirement at this point but with having a class. Or the old we must have a healer tank dps effectively pushing the game into a 3 class type system.
No one likes to play that rev because all you can do is pain absorption if your doing any thing else that eats energy your wasting it.

They realty need to spread out resistance to all the classes and start to treat it like stab.
Or simply have a combo type that drops condi dmg bluntly or a means of making it tick slower.

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

Instead of hard capping the durations of specific boons, I would rather see boon duration cap reduced, and then also lower the ability of some builds to pump out some of these boons. If the boon duration was capped at 80% instead of 100%, this would automatically reduce the length of boons by 10% assuming someone was at max boon duration. Personally, I think that boon and condi duration should be capped at 66% each, concentration and expertise nerfed to 1% duration for every 20 stat, and see condi/boon duration food and sigil/rune effects nerfed slightly as well. But that will never happen unfortunately, so best I can hope for is for ANet to reduce the boon/condi duration to 80%

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

snipples

oh lol then I’m trippin about condi stacks.
if a boon/condi cap was reached then wouldn’t it use less resources since there wouldn’t be anything sent to your player?
no aoe caps would melt the servers lol. there would be tons more calculations to do when taking into consideration the casters power crit damage etc vs some ones armor and -damage %s, as well as modifiers on both sides.
what could help is gutting cleave (aa only hits 1 person), making other weapon skills target 3 people max (cc still 10), and the 5th skill hitting a lot more (20?). I think some weapon skills should be shuffled around. also lower the cap on some utility skills, like wells.

snipples

nerfing boon/condi duration only wouldn’t matter if those stacks could be continually reapplied. the system we have now says that one stack must expire before another can be applied. I propose all stacks must expire, so groups would have to coordinate more. blobs would suffer because they are not as coordinated as guild groups.

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Posted by: Tongku.5326

Tongku.5326

I would definetly like to see an all across the board reduction in everything.

When A-Net changed the trait system, so that all stats came from gear instead of trait lines its when the issues started. Before then, to be mid range or hybrid you would for example pack a bunch of tanky traits and then mostly damage gear or the other way around. To become super tanky or super high DPS you had to stack both traits and gear. When they raised all the base stats across the board and moved stats to gear only it introduced a ton of powercreep.

So the 1st thing I would do is lower all baseline stats across the board. This includes ALL stats, boon duration, condi duration, power, base crit rate, base crit damage multiplier etc. Currently even if you don’t have any ferocity or boons you still do 150% damage on crits just of off crit rate. Then you throw in might + fury and presto, you don’t even need to run ferocity to be able to get decent crits. Likewise with condis, the base duration should be lowered.

After that, then go for boons, conditions and white damage. Reduce both boon duration and application across the board, make them more tactical not just constant spam. Make it an active choice. Condi is a bit tricky because if you reduce application then the DPS can not even remotely keep up with power builds but I would greatly reduce condi application from none condi players. That way those who choose to go for teh sustained condi damage with now baseline reduced HP/Armor, will already have some serious trade offs, and they won’t have as many cover condis from the non condi players. This would make active cleansing in group vs group far more effective while reducing server load.

Furthermore, I think condis on players can be capped at 25 stacks max. This can be done client side and totals can be sent to servers instead of all calculations done server side. Lets face it, having 40 or more stacks of anything on a player is just wasted server resources. 25 is plenty to down people and there is just no need for more. Anyone that gets around 16 bleed stacks + 5-6 poison stacks + a couple stacks of torment or confusion or burning will drop in 2 seconds or so or as soon as their resistance expires either way. So there is really no change on the actual player vs player side, just server optimization.

In general I would also like to see less passive procs and instead have those attached to active skills. Or perhaps drastically lower the proc rates but increase the effects at least, include bigger ICDs and smaller % chances of a proc. This includes boons and condis. Only thing I would leave alone would be passive stun breaks as those already have relatively long cooldowns.

On CCs. With reductions in condis there will now be a ton less CCs, because soft CCs will be greatly reduced. I would leave the hard CCs alone for now as those are already relatively long CD or short duration, or require some serious set-up to be fully effective. If they become out of hand, reduce them later.

This would all be great because there would be large trade offs in defenses vs offense vs utility while at the same time there would be no nerf to any particular playstyle while ta the same time greatly reducing server load while at the same time give players even more and better build choices for all sorts of builds that accentuate certain tank or DPS types or choose to go certain hybrid types.

But, I doubt anything of this sort will ever happen because the team that handles balance can’t even get 5v5 right for SPVP, and everything else in the whole game trickles down from that. Not to mention the game is X years old now, and as it gets older and playerbase naturally diminishes, there are less and less resources (money, manhours etc.) available to work on this stuff.

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

Reducing boon duration and also reducing access to boons would be a better long term strategy though. It would make players have to think about applying these boons, instead of now where a lot of them are just thrown around for no reason with elite specs. Overall this would go a long way towards reducing the boon uptimes on uncoordinated groups, while not changing much for a coordinated group.

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

snipples

boons per player isn’t the problem. if you nerfed an individuals duration and access you nerf single+small group play by a massive amount. the problem is when a bunch of players spam them over and over with no penalty.

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Posted by: joneirikb.7506

joneirikb.7506

Tongku.5326 +15

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Posted by: Cevni.2049

Cevni.2049

snipplesnipple

It wouldn’t use much less simply because it still has to calculate that it shouldn’t be sending it to that specific person. If it had to take more complex criteria in such as how many stacks the person has, how long they’ve had it.

Why no AoE caps would help the servers is rather unintiuitive but basically there are a few reasons why.
1. Fights where people stack up will just end a lot faster (so shorter lag time)
2. People might not stack up as much (5 organized people can melt 30 stacking people then, note that I don’t believe defensive skills should be uncapped)
3. Prioritizing is a very heavy operation for a computer, this would not be needed without AoE caps.
4. Gutting cleave would further make stacking an even better strat which would mean more brainless stacking and smashing buttons.

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

snipples

I think gutting cleave and lowering the aoe caps on other skills is the way to go. that way lag is improved and smaller groups still have an advantage with their bombs. part of the reason stacking is good is because cleave allows you to hit 3-5 people while probably not getting hit in return. think about it, changing aa’s to target only 1 person would be a huge nerf to hammer trains. if half of them targeted (the closest) one guy who goes down and absorbs a ton of damage via the downed state invuln, instead of that same train downing 3 people, then that would be better imo.

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(edited by Stand The Wall.6987)

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Posted by: Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

Both could be balanced if Anet returned to the decent skill design like gw1 had, problem with gw2 is that everythign will end in condition stackign and boon stacking, echos, shouts, whatever dont have direct/ative effects for the allies like we had in gw1.

That would reduce the boon stacking and condi stacking, still game is not about balance but to be carried about those stacking gimmicks, so i doubt it will ever be good has they had in gw1.
Anet made one huge misscalculatin, a more simple game would make game to unbalanced since it will overstack the only 2 or 3 outputs form skills, and since this is a game toawrds skillspamming leaded to this~, where 4years laters game looks worse than in release day.

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(edited by Aeolus.3615)

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Posted by: Cevni.2049

Cevni.2049

snipped

The servers cant handle fights in their current form, making AAs single target wouldn’t change that, but it would make those fights last a lot longer meaning that the lag lasts a lot longer, further incentive stacking as there is less reason not to.

Speaking as the leader of a group who has to this day barely ever had more than 1 person get hit by the same AA, all gutting cleave would really achieve is make cleaving downed people even more of an uphill battle. Removing all AoE caps on damaging attacks would be the best solution, that way stacking has the very logical counter of using AoE and AoE has the logical counter of spreading out, instead of the current counter AoE by stacking tighter and counter stacking by ????.

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

I don’t understand how you think removing all aoe caps with out compensating for the increase in targets would not melt the servers. I’m pretty sure it doesn’t work that way.

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Posted by: Cevni.2049

Cevni.2049

I don’t understand how you think removing all aoe caps with out compensating for the increase in targets would not melt the servers. I’m pretty sure it doesn’t work that way.

Why no AoE caps would help the servers is rather unintiuitive but basically there are a few reasons why.
1. Fights where people stack up will just end a lot faster (so shorter lag time)
2. People might not stack up as much (5 organized people can melt 30 stacking people then, note that I don’t believe defensive skills should be uncapped)
3. Prioritizing is a very heavy operation for a computer, this would not be needed without AoE caps.

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

Why no AoE caps would help the servers is rather unintiuitive but basically there are a few reasons why.
1. Fights where people stack up will just end a lot faster (so shorter lag time)
2. People might not stack up as much (5 organized people can melt 30 stacking people then, note that I don’t believe defensive skills should be uncapped)
3. Prioritizing is a very heavy operation for a computer, this would not be needed without AoE caps.

There was a time when a 5 target AoE cap didn’t exist and Culling was required to handle it. Even with Culling back then the servers had far more lag than today.

Without a cap a server has to find ALL the players in range of an AoE. Then it has to compute damage on lets say the 30 people in range. Then it has to manage the chain effects from passive traits/abilities that trigger from damage which will also trigger more traits/abilities firing. After that the server has to broadcast all those updates to all the clients within the vicinity both friend and foe. A single AoE on a group could easily trigger thousands of server messages to clients. Hence the need for Culling.

With an AoE cap, the server uses the same calculation as without a cap only it stops when it reaches 5. That limits the number of secondary triggers and reduces the amount of messaging that goes out by an order of magnitude. More importantly far fewer calculations are required reducing server processing load.

Also AoE having a cap brings AoE DPS into an easier to balance range. Without a cap AoE DPS eclipses all other damage by a significant margin.

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Posted by: Cevni.2049

Cevni.2049

Why no AoE caps would help the servers is rather unintiuitive but basically there are a few reasons why.
1. Fights where people stack up will just end a lot faster (so shorter lag time)
2. People might not stack up as much (5 organized people can melt 30 stacking people then, note that I don’t believe defensive skills should be uncapped)
3. Prioritizing is a very heavy operation for a computer, this would not be needed without AoE caps.

There was a time when a 5 target AoE cap didn’t exist and Culling was required to handle it. Even with Culling back then the servers had far more lag than today.

Without a cap a server has to find ALL the players in range of an AoE. Then it has to compute damage on lets say the 30 people in range. Then it has to manage the chain effects from passive traits/abilities that trigger from damage which will also trigger more traits/abilities firing. After that the server has to broadcast all those updates to all the clients within the vicinity both friend and foe. A single AoE on a group could easily trigger thousands of server messages to clients. Hence the need for Culling.

With an AoE cap, the server uses the same calculation as without a cap only it stops when it reaches 5. That limits the number of secondary triggers and reduces the amount of messaging that goes out by an order of magnitude. More importantly far fewer calculations are required reducing server processing load.

Also AoE having a cap brings AoE DPS into an easier to balance range. Without a cap AoE DPS eclipses all other damage by a significant margin.

You make it sound as if it would be hundreds of times more calculations, in truth the increase would only be as big as the zerg size/5 and that is if you hit everyone with your AoEs which would most of the time not happen, once again if there is no cap would people really stack up like they do right now? Should AoE dps really not be a lot higher than single target if you’re fighting 20 people stacking inside the AoE?

No Caps>People stack less>AoE becomes less dominant and the lag ends
No Caps>People still stack>Idiots get melted in seconds and the lag ends

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Posted by: Tongku.5326

Tongku.5326

I don’t understand how you think removing all aoe caps with out compensating for the increase in targets would not melt the servers. I’m pretty sure it doesn’t work that way.

Why no AoE caps would help the servers is rather unintiuitive but basically there are a few reasons why.
1. Fights where people stack up will just end a lot faster (so shorter lag time)
2. People might not stack up as much (5 organized people can melt 30 stacking people then, note that I don’t believe defensive skills should be uncapped)
3. Prioritizing is a very heavy operation for a computer, this would not be needed without AoE caps.

I’m sorry but you are flat out wrong on your assumptions. While it is commandable that you lead and command for a long time, I couldn’t stick with it for extended periods, you have come to WVW a bit late or you would remember what it was like before the AOE caps.

Thats right, there was a time when this game had no AOE caps, and at the same time had map caps of around 50ish-60ish people per map per side. With this, the servers did melt. mass disconnects, mass crashes both server and client side, etc. etc. etc.

I, along with others, specifically ran an AEO build back then because of the “no caps” and it was pretty awesome but pointless due to the above mentioned game completely unplayable.

When A-Net first added AOE caps, shortly thereafter they slightly upped map caps where they stayed for a very, very long time until couple months after HOT launched (if I remember correctly, might be off on that timing though) then they were bumped significantly.

So removing AOE caps is a very, very bad idea and will make the game far more unplayable in large scale then it is now. Basically forget about skill lag, just go straight for server and mass client crashes. We have already been down that road and it didn’t work, just that most players here do not know of this because they joined too late or forgot about it.

The current unplayable laggy state of things is a culmination of several factors in no particular order:

Hot expansion added new skills, effects, abilities, increased duration, decreased application intervals, introduced more passives (procs), etc. so you still have all the old vanila stuff + the new stuff on top of it and now there is simply too much of everything.

Maps caps were increased very significantly, you don’t have to be an IT person or a genius to pair this up with the above and realize the effects. It is plain and simple.

Outdated infrastructure. Both hardware and software, it just can’t handle all of this.

Outdated game engine, both client and server side.

So looking at the above you see the changes that would be required to improve the situation, but these changes won’t be done because of the game aging and in general losing player base all around and thus revenue (see last few financial calls for A-Net / NCSoft for details, very easy to google).

Any improvements done can not be drastic, there are simply no resources. You need to go for the things which can be done with minimal effort, dont even change the code too much, just change parameters within existing code, for example total boon condi applications, number of ability procs, lower map caps about 10%ish, etc. etc.

You also don’t want to do drastic changes that will make players of certain builds outright quit and reduce population further, if you do, the changes need to be small but have a cumulative and roughly even effect across the board, so no one in particular gets super nerfed, but rather everything is brought down evenly.

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

snipples

good post man thanks.
do you think changing rng traits/sigils/runes would help reduce lag? so instead of the reg sigil of might its “gain 1 might 5sec 1sec cd”. I feel like (no expert obv) all of this rng adds a ton of calculations when it really doesn’t have to. could be that adding a bunch of timers like that would make it worse, but what we have now for example “60% chance on crit” the server has to calculate crit chance vs 5 targets all at once every second.

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(edited by Stand The Wall.6987)

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Posted by: Cevni.2049

Cevni.2049

For starters you come across as rude and condescending, now the tone of our conversation will sadly be a bit less friendly than one would want.

This is the forums everyone is trying to push their own personal agenda here, I have several myself, I abhor brainless bursting, I abhor no-risk high-reward playstyles and I hate the downstate. In this particular debate I am trying to push the agenda that I wanna be able to melt people if they’re dumb enough to stack in AoE and you’re pushing the agenda that you wanna be able to safely 1111 with your lootstick. I have also seen the effect of AoE-caps, I have in other games (servers are still servers) seen people deliberately using an AoE-cap mechanic to crash a server.

Correlation does not imply causation, I could say that WvW population is currently lower than it was at the start of the game due to AoE caps, the lag problem might have been resolved by fewer people playing on each map perhaps. If no AoE caps would be such a problem, why are the servers not melting when a few people use arrowcarts on 30+ people (it even multihits and applies condis in a huge radius, no critchance though)? Should these also be capped?

While we’re on the topic of discussing this, should lag really be a factor in determining game balance (this is not me saying uncapped AoEs would lead to server lag)? You know what else would help with server lag, removing crit chance from the game, removing all attacks that multihits, etc.. Speaking of game mechanics, is AoE not supposed to be the counterplay to fighting several stacked people? If so why is the counterplay to AoE to stack more people inside the same skills?

Perhaps lowering map caps (and giving everyone 1 free transfer) would also be a good move right now, would also help with spreading out the poulation more across servers.

Now the one part of your post that I could agree with is the amount of procs could certainly be reduced and that should help (thinking mainly in the lines of 60% chance on crit or 30% chance on hit with an ICD aswell, feels a bit redundant also all the “if you crit on someone with X condition on them Y happens”.

That some people might quit is a risk taken with every decision one makes. I know noone that would quit over the decision to nerf playing stupidly. I know several people that would join the game if it didn’t have AoE caps.

Btw you never answered any of my points.
Would people still stack as much as they do right now?
Would the fights not be over a lot faster (last time we didn’t have AoE caps we also had several people rallying of one person so that would change a lot of things)?
If people were to spread out, wouldn’t that mean that AoE was not the only viable option anymore?

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

3. Prioritizing is a very heavy operation for a computer, this would not be needed without AoE caps.

I doubt it prioritizes anything. Server most likely grabs the first 5 players in hitbox and doesn’t give a crap about anyone beyond that.

Moreover damage calculations are going to be way more expensive computationally than selecting players.

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Posted by: xev.9476

xev.9476

Some fanciful stories here. Damaging player AoE has been capped at 5 since beta; support/healing AoE originally had no cap, and was later capped at 5. Culling had nothing to do with any of this, and was still a problem for over a year after support/healing AoE was capped at 5.

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Posted by: Cevni.2049

Cevni.2049

Some fanciful stories here. Damaging player AoE has been capped at 5 since beta; support/healing AoE originally had no cap, and was later capped at 5. Culling had nothing to do with any of this, and was still a problem for over a year after support/healing AoE was capped at 5.

Oh, well good that at least one of the players that did play back then is honest, thank you for pointing out that most of what they wrote is complete bs

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

Some fanciful stories here. Damaging player AoE has been capped at 5 since beta; support/healing AoE originally had no cap, and was later capped at 5. Culling had nothing to do with any of this, and was still a problem for over a year after support/healing AoE was capped at 5.

Oh, well good that at least one of the players that did play back then is honest, thank you for pointing out that most of what they wrote is complete bs

There is still no evidence that unlocking hit caps is somehow less computationally expensive.

I cannot imagine how you could possibly set up a system where grabbing 5 players is more expensive than running damage calculations on a unrestricted number of players.

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Posted by: Cevni.2049

Cevni.2049

Some fanciful stories here. Damaging player AoE has been capped at 5 since beta; support/healing AoE originally had no cap, and was later capped at 5. Culling had nothing to do with any of this, and was still a problem for over a year after support/healing AoE was capped at 5.

Oh, well good that at least one of the players that did play back then is honest, thank you for pointing out that most of what they wrote is complete bs

There is still no evidence that unlocking hit caps is somehow less computationally expensive.

I cannot imagine how you could possibly set up a system where grabbing 5 players is more expensive than running damage calculations on a unrestricted number of players.

There is also no proof that it wouldn’t, I told several reasons why there is good cause to believe that it would indeed benefit the servers. Some of them I believe not even you can argue against, such as that no AoE caps would lead to shorter fights which in turn would lead to less lag.

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

Some fanciful stories here. Damaging player AoE has been capped at 5 since beta; support/healing AoE originally had no cap, and was later capped at 5. Culling had nothing to do with any of this, and was still a problem for over a year after support/healing AoE was capped at 5.

Oh, well good that at least one of the players that did play back then is honest, thank you for pointing out that most of what they wrote is complete bs

There is still no evidence that unlocking hit caps is somehow less computationally expensive.

I cannot imagine how you could possibly set up a system where grabbing 5 players is more expensive than running damage calculations on a unrestricted number of players.

There is also no proof that it wouldn’t, I told several reasons why there is good cause to believe that it would indeed benefit the servers. Some of them I believe not even you can argue against, such as that no AoE caps would lead to shorter fights which in turn would lead to less lag.

No that would lead to a lot of lag for a short period of time, rather than minor lag for a long period of time.

Also WvW doesn’t need shorter fights, we already spend 90% of our time loitering as is.

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Posted by: Cevni.2049

Cevni.2049

Some fanciful stories here. Damaging player AoE has been capped at 5 since beta; support/healing AoE originally had no cap, and was later capped at 5. Culling had nothing to do with any of this, and was still a problem for over a year after support/healing AoE was capped at 5.

Oh, well good that at least one of the players that did play back then is honest, thank you for pointing out that most of what they wrote is complete bs

There is still no evidence that unlocking hit caps is somehow less computationally expensive.

I cannot imagine how you could possibly set up a system where grabbing 5 players is more expensive than running damage calculations on a unrestricted number of players.

There is also no proof that it wouldn’t, I told several reasons why there is good cause to believe that it would indeed benefit the servers. Some of them I believe not even you can argue against, such as that no AoE caps would lead to shorter fights which in turn would lead to less lag.

No that would lead to a lot of lag for a short period of time, rather than minor lag for a long period of time.

Also WvW doesn’t need shorter fights, we already spend 90% of our time loitering as is.

You believe that it would lead to a lot of log for a short period of time, you have no proof that it wouldn’t fix lag . Either way when 2 zergs clash currently the whole server becomes unplayable, even if that would become worse (which I am convinced it wouldn’t), is there a difference between 2 and 5 second skill delay? Isn’t 5 sec skill delay during 20-30 seconds preferable to 2 sec skill delay during 5 minutes?

From what I’ve seen of zergs fights (I avoid them to the best of my ability, really only participate if it is within my EB home keep as I like having +10 and waypoint) which I try to avoid, they seem to last ages cause no damage is dealt cause everyone got a passive -75% damage taken due to AoE caps and if someone goess down they’re instantly ressed, I am generally all for longer fights, zerg fights however seem beyond disgusting due to caps/downstate..

In addition to this, healthy gameplay is a major benefit of no AoE caps, then the counter to stacking is AoE and the counter to AoE is spreading out and the counter to spreading out is to single target. Atm you counter a few people stacking by AoEing, then they counter AoE by stacking more people and then there is no more counterplay.

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Posted by: Baldrick.8967

Baldrick.8967

Bigger problems for me are burst macro using thiefs (latest was 8 skills in under 0.25 seconds). They need some sort of cooldown between skills.

But by far the biggest issue I have is invuln and resistance (and block). None of these should totally mitigate damage, they should be toned down to say 75% and see how that works. It’s annoying as hell to have a skill that takes seconds to cast and has a 30 second + cooldown be completely wasted then in they come with their instant or 4-6 second cooldown burst skills…

I main ele and necro and I’d hate to see aoe caps removed- although an increase in targets hit would be nice, maybe 8 as a cap. Unlimited would just be very ugly.

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Posted by: Cevni.2049

Cevni.2049

Bigger problems for me are burst macro using thiefs (latest was 8 skills in under 0.25 seconds). They need some sort of cooldown between skills.

But by far the biggest issue I have is invuln and resistance (and block). None of these should totally mitigate damage, they should be toned down to say 75% and see how that works. It’s annoying as hell to have a skill that takes seconds to cast and has a 30 second + cooldown be completely wasted then in they come with their instant or 4-6 second cooldown burst skills…

I main ele and necro and I’d hate to see aoe caps removed- although an increase in targets hit would be nice, maybe 8 as a cap. Unlimited would just be very ugly.

Passive and actives defenses together form way too long fight downtimes of being unable to damage players at all yes (11 sec DH, up to 15 sec for warrior etc etc). This is an obvious problems especially the ones where they can attack your during their invuln.

How would no AoE cap be ugly? It would really make it so that skills means a lot more than it does now in comparison to numbers and the only groups that would be punished are the ones that stack in red circles.

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Posted by: Baldrick.8967

Baldrick.8967

Unlimited aoe would destroy group fights, boon sharing, healing, etc and would lead to very selfish self sustain builds with max aoe output. Players would have to spread out so much it would become almost 1v1 – at which point burst builds picking off targets at range that are standing outside their aoe would become a thing.

I could literally stop an entire zerg from ever capping SM with ten eles. Bear in mind the aoe cap also works on a lot of skills that are positives so it might end up ball vs ball and who has higher sustain wins…. so we could stand in your red circles all day and because there is no longer a cap on boon shares or heals we’d outlast you and wipe you out. Then bigger ball wins…

Either scenario could come to pass, and sniping off people running back to the fight would be the best option, so we’d see even more macro thiefs.

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Posted by: Cevni.2049

Cevni.2049

Unlimited aoe would destroy group fights, boon sharing, healing, etc and would lead to very selfish self sustain builds with max aoe output. Players would have to spread out so much it would become almost 1v1 – at which point burst builds picking off targets at range that are standing outside their aoe would become a thing.

I could literally stop an entire zerg from ever capping SM with ten eles. Bear in mind the aoe cap also works on a lot of skills that are positives so it might end up ball vs ball and who has higher sustain wins…. so we could stand in your red circles all day and because there is no longer a cap on boon shares or heals we’d outlast you and wipe you out. Then bigger ball wins…

Either scenario could come to pass, and sniping off people running back to the fight would be the best option, so we’d see even more macro thiefs.

So people would actually counter what the enemy does, how dreadful…

Note I have mentioned it a few times in this thread, but I think friendly effects should be capped. Even without a cap on it though it would still be slightly better (though not much).

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

I could literally stop an entire zerg from ever capping SM with ten eles.

if you could do this, then population imbalance would be fixed. also, if a zerg of 50 couldn’t figure out how to beat you, then you deserve the win. there is an easy fix to a group of staff eles.

completely removing the aoe cap wouldnt help. if it was lowered on some other skills and cleave was gutted then I think a drawn out fight would be a lot better in terms of lag.

I’m with cevni, I don’t think support skills should have their caps raised. I also think that support skills should be only applied to ppl in your party, and if theyre out of range then no one else gets the buff.

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Posted by: Tongku.5326

Tongku.5326

snipples

good post man thanks.
do you think changing rng traits/sigils/runes would help reduce lag? so instead of the reg sigil of might its “gain 1 might 5sec 1sec cd”. I feel like (no expert obv) all of this rng adds a ton of calculations when it really doesn’t have to. could be that adding a bunch of timers like that would make it worse, but what we have now for example “60% chance on crit” the server has to calculate crit chance vs 5 targets all at once every second.

Runes and Sigils are a very, very small part of the equation, I think biggest culprit is the trait system and the overall creep (wouldnt really call it power creep, as there is too much utility and defensiveness in it as well) which was introduced with HOT expansion, new skills, new condis, new effects. All that stuff needs to be toned down.

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Posted by: Tongku.5326

Tongku.5326

had to cut for post size

Hi

I haven’t answered questions as I don’t sit on forums non-stop, so when I log out, I log out.

So in no particular order:

Faster fights: been tehre done that (fairly recently, maybe 2-3 months ago and all teh traits / skills are still valid) and it is currently perfectly viable. The main guild I am in tends to run different metas, we switch on somewhat regular basis and all you and yours have to do to achieve this is simply go to an overall more agressive meta. Plenty of team builds for you to look at and choose for it and it is perfectly viable. Hell, we got our agressive comp up about a week ago and did some one pushes on server que size groups, the bags were pretty glorious, and all within jsut a few secs. Didn’t need AOE caps removed or anything, did it just fine as is.

I am against anything that would eliminate any sort of playstyle. Be it full glass, full attrition, utility, and everything in between and the kitchen sink. Variety is what makes this game mode fun and the lack of it is what makes SPVP sucky.

What I do notice though is that currently there are many builds which have too much of everything, for example you can make a build in any class (maybe except thief) which will be mid range across the board while exceeding at DPS. or mid range across the board while exceeding at tanking. If you exceed at something, you should be toned wayyyyyyy down in the other areas, not stay at mid range. The lack of trade offs needs to go.

While lag and server performance should not be a determining factor in combat mechanics / skill balance, unfortunately due to technical limitations which are staying and will not be dealt with due to plethora of reasons listed elsewhere, it needs to be, it is unfortunate, but there it is and it needs to be dealt with. AOE caps fall under this.

Downed state: I do not care much for it but I do not want to see it disappear entirely because its one of the signature things of this game and what sets it apart. It has already been limited but I would not be opposed to limiting it further. Particularly, tying it to a local outmanned / outnumbered buff to provide a little bit of a boost to the outnumbered side.

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Posted by: SkyShroud.2865

SkyShroud.2865

you won’t know if the amount of latency decrease due to server load is significant or not
putting wvw boon/condi cap is ermm….i feel it makes things complicated than balancing. complicated in a way that a player will feel things are different when playing different game modes and making it uncomfortable

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Posted by: Cevni.2049

Cevni.2049

had to cut for post size

snipped

Note that I was mainly meaning that I want ZvZ fights in general to be over faster, fights that I am not involved with but that are kittening me over just by happening on the same map (skilllag). Assuming that you were talking about relatively even numbers though, ie not more than twice your group size? Cause while your group might run an offensive setup and win, that’s good for you but most groups don’t. The clash of these groups on the other side of the map can give me several minutes of the game being completely unplayable which is rather frustrating.

My group mainly fights with 5 people or so and generally go for as many enemies as reasonably possible, it is just rather depressing that there is an artificial cap making groups of 15+ unkillable because they take 66% less damage just cause they can all stack inside our AoEs, I am obviously not saying that one should win every outnumbered fight but a reasonable fighting chance (ie if they’re actually dumb enough to stand inside all our AoEs they die). Even with such a change having the bigger numbers is obviously beneficial but at least it is to a reasonable degree.

The outnumbered buff shouldn’t be touched for several reasons. Main one being that more buffs that carry you in fights is just rather lame, I wanna win cause I outplay my enemy (either in the fight or cause I prepared better), not cause of some buff caused by the enemy having a zerg on the opposite side of the map.

Removing the downstate or at least nerfing it severely (50% slower ress and a cap of 1/2 people would be a good start, together with a nerf of the best downstate skills ele/thief ones mainly.) Putting a cooldown of 5 minutes on it would be another idea. The downstate has never really felt unique, it just feels like a very powerful passive defense (the same kind that everyone here likes to whine about).

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