Guild Wars 2

Castles in the 13th to 14th century (closest to those in GW2) didnt really have to consider as much magic as we perhaps encounter in GW2.

I find it particularly annoying in WvW. I am defending on a parapet and can see scores of baddies below. The only way for me to hit these enemies is to stand on TOP of the protective walling….thats not how castles work at all. However, the attackers, who cannot even see me, can put their AoE ‘ring’ half way up the wall and hit everyone from the walls edge to the back of the parapet, this is totally counter-intuitive to the so called advantage that defending a wall should have.

I should get

a) a LoS advantage
b) a height advantage
c) a damage mitigation for being behind a few feet of stone
d) only be at a disadvantage via defelation should the baddies hug the wall. Then of course I pour oil on their eads’

Instead, I am obstructed, clumped up and AoE able by targets I cannot target.

It is an advantage.

The only thing that can hurt you are siege and aoe rings.

You cannot be hurt by projectiles.

I think its fair now. Wile it is not realistic it is fair. They cannot hit you unless you are near the edge and you cannot hit them unless you are near the edge. Likewise AoEs can be arched over portions of the wall from the back side and their AoEs can reach the backside. Being able to kill people from a position where you cannot kill them means that Siege in those spots would make it near impossible to take that tower (or whatever). The only way that you would ever be able to take a tower would be to catch it with no defenders or treb it from max range.

runeblade.7514:

It is an advantage.

The only thing that can hurt you are siege and aoe rings.

You cannot be hurt by projectiles.

Wrong… or well, partially wrong. You can be hit by Ranger’s “Barrage” as well, and by arrows and such things, too (at least if you stand ON the wall, where you can actually hit the enemies below).

I agree with the OP.

Attackers definitely have one distinct advantage. They get right up next to the wall and hit you , and you can’t hit them unless you stand on the little ledge. You should not have to stand on the ledge to cast anywhere about 15 feet out from the tower, because doing so makes you vulnerable to pulls.

You should be manning siege equipment anyway. Arrow Carts/Ballistas will do more for your defense then trying to hit people with your aoe from on top of the wall.

What’s lacking on the castles is a star design.

Bit.2519:

You should be manning siege equipment anyway. Arrow Carts/Ballistas will do more for your defense then trying to hit people with your aoe from on top of the wall.

Ideally sure, but there is rarely as much as siege as there are players defending a position. I have an AOE build so I prefer to let melee classes man the siege. It’s just silly I have to expose myself to getting pulled into a mob of 30 people, or else be restricted to targeting maybe only 25% of the area beyond the wall.

Towers are designed to be bumps in the road to a zerg, nothing more. The more i play wvw the more I realize that by design , fortifications were made to be flipped constantly.

Simple change for them while still keeping the same gameplay, on wall you get protection buff.

Bit.2519:

You should be manning siege equipment anyway. Arrow Carts/Ballistas will do more for your defense then trying to hit people with your aoe from on top of the wall.

My grenades beg to differ.

Meest.2748:

Simple change for them while still keeping the same gameplay, on wall you get protection buff.

This is actually a very clever suggestion. Although it still doesn’t address the bizarre fact that it is actually easier to aoe people BEHIND a wall than it is to aoe people FROM behind a wall. Which makes zero sense. I can’t even throw my grenades over a 5 foot tall parapet to reach the enemy but the enemy can throw their grenades against my 20 foot tall wall and hit me.

Yukishiro.8792:

Meest.2748:

Simple change for them while still keeping the same gameplay, on wall you get protection buff.

This is actually a very clever suggestion. Although it still doesn’t address the bizarre fact that it is actually easier to aoe people BEHIND a wall than it is to aoe people FROM behind a wall. Which makes zero sense. I can’t even throw my grenades over a 5 foot tall parapet to reach the enemy but the enemy can throw their grenades against my 20 foot tall wall and hit me.

That’s probably my one gripe at this point. On top of that, I can live with gaining less by defending and building, or scouting, but then to be basically a loot box for an attacking zerg just pours salt on the wounds. And you can safely man siege that won’t hit anywhere important, but try manning siege that can hit where you need it to and you’ll get blasted in a few seconds from the ground in front of the wall. Attacking siege only has to have range to the wall itself, defending siege has to match that range then add on a few feet to stay safe from ground aoe, putting it out of range to actually defend. I could still almost live with all of that if I didn’t have to stand on the very edge and balance on the wall to get anything other then cluster bomb off.

What’s more irritating is that fact that when I use my longbow as warrior I can get obstructed by literally nothing, on flat ground with nothing between me and my target. Yet when I’m on a wall defending and I try to fire down on some attackers a 2 foot wall blocks my attacks and doesn’t even mention that it was obstructed.

It needs to be fixed.

It would also be nice if the way vertical height was calculated into range was changed a bit. For example on the engineer’s mortar with 1400 range, being on top of a wall negates 700 of that from hieght, so you only have 700 left, which is basically only hitting people hugging the walls. It would be nice if you could actually hit targets that were 1400 range from the wall itself. When attacking it seems like much less of a problem. For example if I throw my grenades and they arc up and hit someone on top it’s no problem. Hard to say exactly how this works, but maybe I can test this out a bit more.

Shajin.5492:

It would also be nice if the way vertical height was calculated into range was changed a bit. For example on the engineer’s mortar with 1400 range, being on top of a wall negates 700 of that from hieght, so you only have 700 left, which is basically only hitting people hugging the walls. It would be nice if you could actually hit targets that were 1400 range from the wall itself. When attacking it seems like much less of a problem. For example if I throw my grenades and they arc up and hit someone on top it’s no problem. Hard to say exactly how this works, but maybe I can test this out a bit more.

i agree. shooting downward shouldn’t really factor into range. there are times when i’m up to high for something to hit the ground, as though gravity wouldn’t be able to take it there anyway. if range just worked on the horizontal plane, and attacking upwards, it would be ideal. though, i’m guessing they can’t limit upward range without limiting downward as well.

as for the railing, i can see it being a problem if the people are trying to attack are stacked right up against the wall. angles would be a factor. but they angle they’re currently using is brutal. LoS gets pretty much ignored by a railing that comes up to my character’s waist.

Yeah seriously, one time I was on a cannon, I knew people were going to come attack the keep. This one elementalist, this one robe wearing nerd comes charging up at me. I fire one cannon shot. I fire my second. Then he f1 then 5s my spot, and I’m the one who has to run away? I lost that fight? Me, on this cannon, hitting this robe and wizard hat wearing dork with a cannonball, I had to be the one that runs cause I was eating about 2 thousand damage for each meteor that hit me.

And whoever said you can’t get hit by projectiles on a wall, I should smack you till the stupid falls out. I find it a hell of a lot easier to hit someone on top of a wall then from a wall. Yeah I enjoy it when I have to play a jumping puzzle to hit people on the bottom… and hope, you know, a mesmer doesn’t just yoink me off the wall since the only thing keeping me FROM being yoinked was the parapet.

Cannot hit you unless you’re on the edge? I should download a video recording program and show just how “close the edge” I’m NOT standing when I start getting AoE’d. Oh and hey, if I’m back there anyways, I wont be able to hit them. Of course they can hit me just fine, but my AoE attacks are always “out of range” when I try hitting them back.

The only way you can sorta attack from a wall without fussing with the horrible targeting system and being told your shots are blocked or out of range are cannons. Which are terrible cause again, f1 + 5 + elemantilist= bye cannon, and whoever was manning it. And even then, I’m noticing all these people who apparently took jedi training to know the exact second to dodge every cannon shot and can get their endurance back by the time I can fire a second one. Good thing rolling stops you from being at ground zero of a cannon explosion!

And I know what people are going to cry about “but that cannon up there can hit me AND I CAN’T AOE IT!!!” Suck it up, I can’t effin AoE you either and I’m the one who is supposed to have the advantage.

i’ve noticed that when a group gets close, trying to use either the cannons or the oil is just plain suicide. standing somewhat close to them isn’t much better. the same applies to even just walking past them. oil is absolutely worthless at this point. cannons are only good if you have a decent sized group tying up the attackers out of their attack range. the time and cost it takes to initially get and later repair them compared to the few seconds it takes for an attacking zerg to kill them (and anyone near them) is light years apart.

Regarding oil, right now it is a joke, just several seconds of delay for capturing team (though these seconds may be critical for defending team in some cases)

I think oil itself should only be vulnerable when actally being manned. How’s that for an idea? This way it will be more of a threat to the attacking team and still be counetrable by constant AoE to deny manning or burst damage when manned.

I wholeheartedly agree. The fact that it is harder to hit someone from upside down than it actually is to hit someone down below has been boggling my mind from the start. Why should I have to jump on top of the “railing” to hit the attackers, while they can shower the whole battlements. It’s just ridiculous.

With my Elementalist’s staff I can keep people off the whole area where the oil stands on a normal tower. My AoE hits the entire area up there. You basically have to jump down into the tower’s yard to avoid getting hit by meteor shower. Add a ranger’s barrage and another ele to that and you could basically keep players from standing up there for a long time. Not to speak of the smaller AoE attacks that keep defenders from standing in positions from where you can actually hit something down there.

Of course the key to defend a keep are arrow carts right now. Place them far enough back so that they aren’t hit that easy and barrage the area in front of the keep. But should it be the way that siege equipment (and cannons or oil are ridiculously uneffective and way to easily dismantled) is that paramount to defending?
Maybe, but my Elementalist being less effective in defending keeps and towers than he is at attacking these objectives is really ridiculous.

I also agree that height of the walls should not be counted into range as heavily as it is now. At least not downwards. Shooting an arrow upwards is more difficult than shooting downwards. I guess that’s also one of the reasons archers in earlier times have always sought out the higher ground to shower their enemies. I understand that this might be more difficult to program, but the way it works now is just too much a disadvantage for the defenders.

There are sections of Greenbriar where I can see enemies below, but have no LOS to hit them. Meanwhile, the enemies can aoe me without any LOS to me because of AOE circles defying reality and physics.

It’s just really annoying. There needs to be something equivalent to an archery nook. It obviously can’t get to the point where standing on a wall makes you an armored turret, but there has to be some happy middle-ground.

Last time i tried to use guardian tomes, worked to atack players on the wall, even the tome for healing could reach top of the wall, when defending was weird, couse none of the skills were possible to cast from the walls, not even close to support allied forces close to the wall, all i see was a red circle. and only possible to cast tome of wrath skills to

The keeps do still leave alot to be desired for the time being. I’d agree that the walls are at the very least the starting point. The LOS blocking should/needs to be the first thing to go.

I actually don’t have a problem with aoe hitting the wall the way it does, but perhaps giving a distance penalty would be appropriate. I might suggest having anything cast at a z-axis above the character’s location be subject to spherical distance, while those being used below be subject to a more cylindrical distance (limited horizontal range when firing up, but not below). Of course, that may cause more problems use than other methods available.

I think the last thing is to provide a defensive benefit aside from the range benefit I suggested. Perhaps something like a 25% obstruction rate for abilities who originate below the the wall on the z-axis. I’d even go to 50%, but I think that would be just plain OPd.

runeblade.7514:

It is an advantage.

The only thing that can hurt you are siege and aoe rings.

You cannot be hurt by projectiles.

You forgot to mention mesmers sending their illusionary berserkers regardless of LoS to attack siege engines and multiple defenders that are unreachable for any other AoE or ability from any other class.

It’s not just our standard attacks though that are obstructed. I have manned a ballista that was placed in a precarious position open to aoe, but every bolt I fired went straight into that little incline on the tower wall, the one that’s meant to prevent our being dragged off the wall. We wasted siege on something that is less effective than our shaking our fists at the enemy.

Attacking a wall is much easier then defending from a wall, no doubt. Thanks to large Area’s getting bombed by various AoEs even Arrowcarts are often not out of harms way. And the place they are leaves the user with a very limited view to actually put the reticule where it would do damage.

Then we havent even talked about the rediculous pulls and everything, even on big fortified walls standing on one side (the inner side) you almost get pulled down with that silly Mesmers ability. Standing any closer to the edge and you are hurdled into a hungry zerg.
Or those phantasms that can just be targetted on you without even being in LoS. Yippie for culling issues, these things dont appear on your screen untill they are already spinning through everyone on the wall for 4-5k dmg.

The little walls on top of the wall (no idea what these are called) are even more of a hindrance then a help. They dont stop AoE, and even allow targetting for attackers to hit further back up the wall. But they narrow the places you can stand as a defender.
Often walls are to small to even safely stand anywhere that the AoE by attackers wont reach.
Same for the flagpoles, they dont cause collision but i can target them with my grenades. These will fly through them and land even further back on the wall or even behind the wall.
Defenders are in general simply finding it much harder to spread out since there is much less space then the attackers.

Cannons are also silly, unless you have your own zerg out in the field to keep them a bit away from the walls, a cannon isnt that usefull. You are exposed to AoE spam, and the cannon simply doesnt do enough damage to deter people from getting close.

The only thing about defending that gives defenders an edge is the ability to hit through the gate. And even that is a double-edged sword, because a zerg facerubbing the gate makes it difficult to run in and repair it.

Lexander.4579:

You forgot to mention mesmers sending their illusionary berserkers regardless of LoS to attack siege engines and multiple defenders that are unreachable for any other AoE or ability from any other class.

Mesmer’s don’t really have many other options. With a Greatsword from the ground there are only 2 attacks that can be used to actually hit something. It’s this or mind sword which has 120 aoe and can only be placed on the wall or ledge. If they’re standing on the ledge I’d be better off switching to focus and dragging them off the wall. Or we can equip a staff where the only attack that can hit on the wall is chaos storm with its long cooldown.

Plus, illusions don’t really take a lot to kill. To take down an arrow cart it takes around 8 berserkers (who take forever to attack again so they’ll be dead before take 2).

Has everyone forgotten that the thief can use scorpion wire to drag you off the wall? As a mesmer, unless they’re sitting on the ledge I can only drag them into the ledge. A thief managed to pull me through the ledge into the zerg below. Not sure if it was a glitch or if they can do this constantly.

You forgot to mention that the iBerserka is on a 20sec cooldown, only moves in a straight line every 5-6seconds,has virtualy no HP and dies in 1 hit or maybe2,the mesmer also has to be able to target the ac or whatever siege first.

darkrequiem.6258:

Lexander.4579:

You forgot to mention mesmers sending their illusionary berserkers regardless of LoS to attack siege engines and multiple defenders that are unreachable for any other AoE or ability from any other class.

Mesmer’s don’t really have many other options. With a Greatsword from the ground there are only 2 attacks that can be used to actually hit something. It’s this or mind sword which has 120 aoe and can only be placed on the wall or ledge. If they’re standing on the ledge I’d be better off switching to focus and dragging them off the wall. Or we can equip a staff where the only attack that can hit on the wall is chaos storm with its long cooldown.

Plus, illusions don’t really take a lot to kill. To take down an arrow cart it takes around 8 berserkers (who take forever to attack again so they’ll be dead before take 2).

Mesmers already have a whole lot of strong and/or unique tools for attacking the walls, apart of what you and me mentioned there are also chaos storm and projectile blockers and possibly something else that I could forget.

That is in addition to insane utility that mesmers offer to their party and zerg such as portals, mass stealth and illusion of life.

And on top of everything 2-3 DPS-orientated mesmers are able to make wall defense impossible.

darkrequiem.6258:

Has everyone forgotten that the thief can use scorpion wire to drag you off the wall? As a mesmer, unless they’re sitting on the ledge I can only drag them into the ledge. A thief managed to pull me through the ledge into the zerg below. Not sure if it was a glitch or if they can do this constantly.

Scorpion wire requires the target to be on the ledge of the wall, it randomly becomes obstructed at plain sight and sometimes it fails to drag the target even on a terrain with no obstacles.

iorlas.6721:

You forgot to mention that the iBerserka is on a 20sec cooldown, only moves in a straight line every 5-6seconds,has virtualy no HP and dies in 1 hit or maybe2,the mesmer also has to be able to target the ac or whatever siege first.

It’s all good and fine but zerker deals initial damage the moment it spawns on target and no mesmer expects their zerker to live enough for another whirl. So there’s no easy way to prevent mesmert hurting siege. You can kill zerkers all you want, your cata’s going down anyway. The only way to prevent that is to put your siege in the spot that is 1200+ away from any place where invader can stand and/or where it cannot be directly targeted under any circumstances (sometimes it still can be targeted with auto-target but having something targetable in front of your siege usually helps, like these same walls or defenders).

Yaro.3251:

It’s all good and fine but zerker deals initial damage the moment it spawns on target and no mesmer expects its zerker to live enough for a second whirl. So there’s no easy way to prevent mesmert hurting siege. You can kill zerkers all you want, your cata’s going down anyway. The only way to prevent that is to put your siege in the spot that is 1200+ away from any place where invader can stand and/or where it cannot be directly targeted under any circumstances (sometimes it still can be targeted with auto-target but having something targetable in front of your siege usually helps, like these same walls or defenders).

I understand your concern with siege. To put it anywhere that it is remotely protected sacrifices it’s usefulness.

The point we’re trying to make in regards to the berserker is that it takes time. If you’re not hopelessly outnumbered you can be using this time to force them back or have everyone target the mesmer. A greatsword on a cloth wearer isn’t something we can hide easily. Plus, to stay targeted on the siege you’re trying to protect we have to stay locked onto it. If they haven’t already moved out of range follow the purple line that screams obstructed.

I think you’ll find an Elementalist is far more dangerous to your siege than a mesmer can ever hope to be. Huge AoE’s that can cover your entire front wall and watching as you siege equipment health bar plummets. Personally, I’d be trying to kill them instead.

Lexander.4579:

Scorpion wire requires the target to be on the ledge of the wall, it randomly becomes obstructed at plain sight and sometimes it fails to drag the target even on a terrain with no obstacles.

Don’t forget about guardian’s and their aegis. Blocks me every time I try with temporal curtain.

Yeah, I play mesmer as main character so I understand all problems of MvS (on both sides of the fence) pretty well But following:

I think you’ll find an Elementalist is far more dangerous to your siege than a mesmer can ever hope to be. Huge AoE’s that can cover your entire front wall and watching as you siege equipment health bar plummets. Personally, I’d be trying to kill them instead.

is missing the point. Mesmer’s speciality is taking down siege that is not easily reachable by other classes. If at all. The one you’d expect to be safe. Who cares about on-wall siege, that can be mostly taken care of by standard AoE.

Other than occasional bugs and LoS issues, I don’t particularly want to see any changes to keep/tower wall defense.

If you sit on a wall to farm attackers without investing in siege defense you pretty much deserve to lose the property you are inhabiting. There is already plenty of advantage to defending, its just not all handed on a plate to the defenders, they need to actually do stuff to leverage that advantage.

Lexander.4579:

Mesmers already have a whole lot of strong and/or unique tools for attacking the walls, apart of what you and me mentioned there are also chaos storm and projectile blockers and possibly something else that I could forget.

That is in addition to insane utility that mesmers offer to their party and zerg such as portals, mass stealth and illusion of life.

And on top of everything 2-3 DPS-orientated mesmers are able to make wall defense impossible.

For attacking walls the skills we have that are actually worth something are:

GS4. Illusionary Berserker
Focus4. Temporal Curtain
Staff5. Chaos Storm (which I did mention if you’ll just read my initial post)
Utility Skill. Feedback (this is the purple bubble that reflects projectliles)
Elite. Time Warp (210 second cooldown)

5 skills that we can use reliably in a siege, spread between 3 weapons sets, utility and elite. Yeah, that’s huge. None of these skills are as quick to recharge as people think. Now go and look at a ranger and an elementalist with their arcing projectiles and aoe and then tell me that we’re the overpowered ones in a siege. And don’t forget staff necromancer’s can discourage people from walking over the walls through their marks.

Mass Invisibility is 5 seconds. Thieves can provide far more than this to their companions (though in a smaller aoe start). And from experience I can tell you that a few people always do something to break the stealth. As for portals, can you say obvious. It’s the shiny circle on the ground that’s making a noise. In order to get a sizable group to utilise it takes immense coordination. Uncoordinated, chances are only 2 people are going to use it and they’re about to portal right into your base and they’ll die. People forget that you know exactly where they’re going to arrive. You are prepared, they are not prepared for you to be prepared. Plus, the mesmer has to somehow get into the tower/keep your trying to protect and live. Illusion of life only works on the downed. It does not resurrect, it casts vengeance. Any warrior will tell you that vengeance is bad. That have to kill someone, not down, kill. Applying vengeance to anyone is giving the other teams downed a free rally.