PoF Zerg Meta - Solidifying Melee Train?

PoF Zerg Meta - Solidifying Melee Train?

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Posted by: Artaz.3819

Artaz.3819

General zerg

Mechanics of meta zerg will be ball up, pull and bomb based. This is caused primarily because projectile hate is still very strong like in HoT and classes that have these mechanics seek them out – 100% mitigation and reflect typically to boot. Boon hate (removal of stab) will be high, and with the nerf to pulsing Stab, and the mass influx of stacking Scourge corrupt and Spellbreaker mechanics will make CC very strong again.

Most ideal zerg parties splits will be 1-2 Guards (at least 1 Firebrand), 1 Spellbreaker, 1-2 Scourge, and a filler class. Outside of Firebrand, all these classes can be replaced to an extent. Damage will appear to be heavily condi based but is really a hybrid mix of direct and condi so sustain of mixing toughness and vitality to a point will continue to be key for general stat builds especially since damage will be more burst/lockdown in nature.

Class builds

Firebrand – the pivot of the new zerg because of Heated Rebuke (F1, 3) and (F3, 2) Daring Challenge on a 4s cooldown which is basically a huge pull/taunt CC that can be coupled with GS pull as well. The commander can lead the bomb initially and then pull back some for support/regroup if needed while in Tome of Courage. Mantra Elite will see some use just because of the AoE stun break but RF will continue to be primarily used.

Note, Dragonhunter will continue to see some use for havoc/roaming, single target pull F1 and general survivability. However, DH is more suited in general for older pirate ship meta or when ganking.

Scourge – get used to it. With the heavy boon corrupt and heavy condi cleanse capable, you’ll see a lot of Curses or Blood/Soul Reaping/Scourge meta which will destroy less coordinated zergs. Fear from Shade and AoE staff fear will support CC meta. Shades will have heavy Lifeforce costs (or rather allows some very strong spam) but will be the cornerstone of success or failure to counter a similar sized zerg. I expect to see target limits nerfed soon.

Spellbreaker – Interrupt/CC/boon removal coupled with Firebrand pulls. Hammer and Full Counter and offhand dagger or shield. The return of the melee train meta is heavily influenced based on CC from Warrior after initial clash coupled with the new Elite for melee bomb and supported by Magebane Tether. I do expect the Elite utility to be nerfed from 10s to 6s because of it. It’s going to be fun to play Spellbreaker in the new world melee train initially.

Mirage is extremely strong from a selfish defensive capability and condi damage and in combat mobility aspect. Core Mesmer Veil and Portal utilities will continue to be the role that they play though. Every zerg will want to have a few to fulfill this role but can live without it. More coordinated zergs will continue to win because of initiative and there is a solid role for Mirage to play rez focused while in the heat of it because of mirage evade mechanic not interrupting actions.

Weaver will generally see low game play in WvW. Weaver’s Tailored Vicory is very strong and stances with multi-ammo mechanic are nice but the Sword itself will see low play outside of dueling/roaming where basically passive barrier gain is strong against single targets. Eles will be encouraged to continue to join zergs but just not as Weavers per se.

Renegade will fill similar type builds as Scourge. With CC from Hammer or will fill a lesser form of condi damage role with spammable (but reflectable) AoE bleed spam makes them strong. Mallyx will be able to fulfill the Scourge role of condi clear but ultimately will be more vulnerable than the equivalent Scourge when things go south – better to just lose the condis than to gain a corruptable resistance boon.

Soulbeast will be in odd spot as the base pet disappears when needed now. There will be a lot of shout based/WHaO/Live Fast combo builds but because they ultimately require boons to be effective and with the heavy strip meta incoming, will be seen as a liability in the new meta. If a zerg is heavier ranged base/outnumbers opponent zergs, they’ll continue to do fine. Soulbeast will be highly suited for solo/roaming because of how strong/quickly boons can be stacked quickly and steam role. Good luck all you perma Bearbeast players.

Deadeye will be rare outside of roaming where it’ll be extremely powerful due to more recent Deadly Arts changes on giving Poison stacks on every immobilize. Rifle will see use for the Immobilize/Poison spam until nerfed (couple with Sword mainhand on switch) with supplement mobility/stealth – sorry all, I will abuse until then. Daredevil D/P will continue to be the preferred tag keep/take sentry/general gank build. In zerg, thief will still primarily use SB/Deadly Arts and general outside ganking as normal. Chasing will be less necessary with more spammable CC bombs.

Hah – somehow Holosmith fell off. You can probably figure out why. I do think Holosmith can make a great roaming option but that playstyle is also high risk and in zerg is an auxiliary burst damage role at best. I think the big miss with Holosmith is that I don’t believe it is done in development as the Photon Forge mechanics aren’t made in such a way that they could with interact with other Engineer abilities and traits i.e. Juggernaut, Flame Turret, Flamethrower, Fire Bomb, etc. and even explosives (even if it was just radius at 50+ heat) themes. It feels incomplete just in general.

Other thoughts, Travel
Primarily mount based so less focus on stacking Swiftness and many classes may forego for the equivalent 25% option if available. But with an abundance of Scourges, it may become a coordinated chain Sand Swell (especially if lasting 20s lasts) to hop move around the map (golem rushes and bombs into opponent zergs).

Thoughts?

(edited by Artaz.3819)

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Posted by: TheOneWhoSighs.7513

TheOneWhoSighs.7513

Mirage is extremely strong from a selfish defensive capability and condi damage and in combat mobility aspect. Core Mesmer Veil and Portal utilities will continue to be the role that they play though. Every zerg will want to have a few to fulfill this role but can live without it. More coordinated zergs will continue to win because of initiative and there is a solid role for Mirage to play rez focused while in the heat of it because of mirage evade mechanic not interrupting actions.

You’ve completely lost me. Mirage doesn’t offer anything over Chrono for a zerg.

Literally nothing. not a single one of mirage’s utilities or traits are helpful for a zerg. The only thing Mirage has over chrono is the ability to continue casting while dodging, and sword 1 ambush leaps.

That’s it.

Mirage is the Mesmer equivalent of a non-venomshare Thief. It holds zero value in a zerg over the other possible variants of Mesmer.

Want more invuln? Take signets. Want utility? Mirage has none. Want clone generation? Chrono. Want to use veil 4 times as a single person? Chrono. Want a useful shield that’ll help you survive when the fight starts? Chrono.

Want to play the most selfish Mesmer build to exist yet? Even more selfish than base power shatter Mesmer? Play Mirage.

“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

Engineers, forever ignored.

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Posted by: Deniara Devious.3948

Deniara Devious.3948

Engineers, forever ignored.

Engineers are probably the least played profession in WvWvW. They have never been the meta. I don’t think holosmith will replace hammer scrapper, because it lacks defense.

Arenanet could sometimes perhaps read the engineer sub forum and do some of the sensible suggestions from there.

Engineer rifle needs serious love. Currently it is extremely high risk ranged choice, which requires to be at close range for maximum burst. Rifle #4, overcharged shot, with the all the projectile hate e.g. reflects, is very easy way to kill yourself. I think rifle #3, blunderbuss, should be a blast finisher and rifle #5, leap shot, really needs a bit faster animation + evade frames. Then it could be used as additional source of mobility (currently it can even lead to immobilized at air = death). These would also benefit holosmith elite spec as rifle could suit it.

Orbital Command grandmaster trait should increase mortar’s auto attack radius from 120 to 180 in addition to its current effect. This would increase the likelihood of comboing, without still making it too overpowered compared to staff ele. Mortar is pretty low DPS kit, but it has a lot of fields and 100 % projectile finisher auto, which suffers from too small radius.

Medkit needs serious love. Medkit #1 currently only heals others in way too small cone. It should heal the engineer as well and/or do some damage effects e.g. compare with water staff ele #1 or druid staff #1. Medkit #2-5 should be turned into 1/2 s cast 360 degree burst centered on the engineer 360 radius, affects up to 5 allies including the engineer. This would give engineer the sorely needed group utility instead.

Overall with 3 changes alone, engineer could find itself in meta. Without any changes to the core engineer, I don’t think holosmith / core engineer will be part of the zerg meta.

Deniara / Ayna – I want the original WvWvW maps back – Desolation [EU]

(edited by Deniara Devious.3948)

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Posted by: ArchonWing.9480

ArchonWing.9480

This Engineer sounds like a good idea, but I don’t think Anet has the time for a 9th profession. Sorry.

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.

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Posted by: Artaz.3819

Artaz.3819

Mirage is extremely strong from a selfish defensive capability and condi damage and in combat mobility aspect. Core Mesmer Veil and Portal utilities will continue to be the role that they play though. Every zerg will want to have a few to fulfill this role but can live without it. More coordinated zergs will continue to win because of initiative and there is a solid role for Mirage to play rez focused while in the heat of it because of mirage evade mechanic not interrupting actions.

You’ve completely lost me. Mirage doesn’t offer anything over Chrono for a zerg.

Literally nothing. not a single one of mirage’s utilities or traits are helpful for a zerg. The only thing Mirage has over chrono is the ability to continue casting while dodging, and sword 1 ambush leaps.

That’s it.

Mirage is the Mesmer equivalent of a non-venomshare Thief. It holds zero value in a zerg over the other possible variants of Mesmer.

Want more invuln? Take signets. Want utility? Mirage has none. Want clone generation? Chrono. Want to use veil 4 times as a single person? Chrono. Want a useful shield that’ll help you survive when the fight starts? Chrono.

Want to play the most selfish Mesmer build to exist yet? Even more selfish than base power shatter Mesmer? Play Mirage.

We are saying the same thing. Mirage is self defensive focused (basically the 2nd traits across the elite line) and the rest of it is weak. But portal and veil will still have a role as they did before for zerg.

(edited by Artaz.3819)

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Posted by: TheOneWhoSighs.7513

TheOneWhoSighs.7513

Mirage is extremely strong from a selfish defensive capability and condi damage and in combat mobility aspect. Core Mesmer Veil and Portal utilities will continue to be the role that they play though. Every zerg will want to have a few to fulfill this role but can live without it. More coordinated zergs will continue to win because of initiative and there is a solid role for Mirage to play rez focused while in the heat of it because of mirage evade mechanic not interrupting actions.

You’ve completely lost me. Mirage doesn’t offer anything over Chrono for a zerg.

Literally nothing. not a single one of mirage’s utilities or traits are helpful for a zerg. The only thing Mirage has over chrono is the ability to continue casting while dodging, and sword 1 ambush leaps.

That’s it.

Mirage is the Mesmer equivalent of a non-venomshare Thief. It holds zero value in a zerg over the other possible variants of Mesmer.

Want more invuln? Take signets. Want utility? Mirage has none. Want clone generation? Chrono. Want to use veil 4 times as a single person? Chrono. Want a useful shield that’ll help you survive when the fight starts? Chrono.

Want to play the most selfish Mesmer build to exist yet? Even more selfish than base power shatter Mesmer? Play Mirage.

We are saying the same thing. Mirage is self defensive focused (basically the 2nd traits across the elite line) and the rest of it is weak. But portal and veil will still have a role as they did before for zerg.

Nobody takes Mesmers for portals or veils.

The only things we offer are some extra stab/condi cleanse, boon strip with null field, and gravity well/time warp.

Veils are too predictable, just take smoke fields.

Portals are literally suicide. There’s a reason why I always tell people to pull emergency way points before inner is down. It’s because once you know where the enemy is suddenly going to flood from, you just bomb the crap out of that one spot.

“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki

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Posted by: TheOneWhoSighs.7513

TheOneWhoSighs.7513

Engineers, forever ignored.

Engineers are probably the least played profession in WvWvW. They have never been the meta. I don’t think holosmith will replace hammer scrapper, because it lacks defense.

Arenanet could sometimes perhaps read the engineer sub forum and do some of the sensible suggestions from there.

Engineer rifle needs serious love. Currently it is extremely high risk ranged choice, which requires to be at close range for maximum burst. Rifle #4, overcharged shot, with the all the projectile hate e.g. reflects, is very easy way to kill yourself. I think rifle #3, blunderbuss, should be a blast finisher and rifle #5, leap shot, really needs a bit faster animation + evade frames. Then it could be used as additional source of mobility (currently it can even lead to immobilized at air = death). These would also benefit holosmith elite spec as rifle could suit it.

Orbital Command grandmaster trait should increase mortar’s auto attack radius from 120 to 180 in addition to its current effect. This would increase the likelihood of comboing, without still making it too overpowered compared to staff ele. Mortar is pretty low DPS kit, but it has a lot of fields and 100 % projectile finisher auto, which suffers from too small radius.

Medkit needs serious love. Medkit #1 currently only heals others in way too small cone. It should heal the engineer as well and/or do some damage effects e.g. compare with water staff ele #1 or druid staff #1. Medkit #2-5 should be turned into 1/2 s cast 360 degree burst centered on the engineer 360 radius, affects up to 5 allies including the engineer. This would give engineer the sorely needed group utility instead.

Overall with 3 changes alone, engineer could find itself in meta. Without any changes to the core engineer, I don’t think holosmith / core engineer will be part of the zerg meta.

The reason why Engineer isn’t in the meta, is that it finds itself sharing a slot with a guardian or elementalist.

Honestly, your suggested changes wouldn’t fix that.

If anything, they should be buffing elixer tosses. Say what you want, but elixers are the path to getting Engineers into WvW.

Give toss elixer B a larger radius (Actually, give all of the elixer tosses, minus X, a larger radius). Give it a 600 radius and it will easily compete with stand your ground despite having a slightly lower duration (5 1/2 seconds when traited) and fewer stacks.

Get rid of the randomness of Elixer X, give it some actual use like Plague Lands, but make it Engineer unique. Toss Elixer X actually has great potential in WvW, but it’s held back by how utterly awful the utility is otherwise.

Even if Elixer X became a field that just bubbled up stacks of poison on people walking over it, it would be an improvement over the mess that’s currently there.

Oh, and get rid of the randomness on toss elixer H.

God, ANet really used to love “random effects”.

“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki

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Posted by: Meetshield.1756

Meetshield.1756

He lost me at “All these can be replaced except Firebrand” Clearly he is a guardian main nubcake.

Firebrand is awkward. I’m sure someone will find a use for it, but right now its just a shiny flashy thing.

If Anet cared about WvW… but anyway… Enjoy the morning boys, Its FRIDAY.

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Posted by: TheOneWhoSighs.7513

TheOneWhoSighs.7513

He lost me at “All these can be replaced except Firebrand” Clearly he is a guardian main nubcake.

Firebrand is awkward. I’m sure someone will find a use for it, but right now its just a shiny flashy thing.

If Anet cared about WvW… but anyway… Enjoy the morning boys, Its FRIDAY.

The only reason why Firebrand is awkward, is because the tomes need tweaking.

Of all the elite specs coming in, the issues with firebrand are the easiest to fix.

Get rid of the cast time to pull a tome out, and change up the page mechanic to an ammo one so that you can more freely swap tomes.

Boom, Firebrand is probably over powered at that point because the tomes themselves are pretty great, so they’d need a bit of dialing back.

Maybe make it like elementalist, where each tome goes on a say, a 5 second cooldown when you swap off, on top of the page limitation.

“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki

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Posted by: Swamurabi.7890

Swamurabi.7890

I think OP’s faith in boon stripping is misplaced.