Guild Wars 2

This is something that in my opinion is becoming a rather sad issue.
My guild usually plays as an organized group and during our play-hours we like to fight against strong opponents.
Most of us want to have good fights and we usually get plenty of those during the weekend.

Then the work week starts and the point fights begin.
Let me give you an example of what I mean by this.
In our current match against SoR/IoJ/BG, SoR is so desperate for points that they rather PvDoor all day long than actually fight and usually only fight when they largely outnumber our server on that given map.

For example, our guild team joins a map which SoR is hitting hard with their organized zerg.
As soon as we successfully defend 1 tower/keep SoR instantly ports out to an empty borderland/EB where they will outnumber whatever is there unless we follow them (in which case they port back/forth to another borderland)

In the off-peek hours they gather up 1 zerg that goes around hitting all towers and if there is 2 manned arrow carts they run to the next tower asap.
To just flip towers removing upgrades while they’r undefended and to secure points for when they will be equally matched.

What I’m trying to point out here is an issue I’m having.
Some people at this point don’t care about the actual fights anymore, all they can see is the point/ranking system.
Which is equally the case in T1 too, but because of there being more W3 focused players in there, you still get quite a lot of fun fights.

As someone that enjoys good fights this is getting pretty lame.

TL/DR
People rather attack undefended keeps/towers and avoid any fights (unless it’s some easy kills like 10v1) by jumping to empty borderlands as soon as they get any resistance.

Key question:
Is this strategy working for your enemy?

If the answer is yes then you need to stop looking for an honourable fight on your terms while complaining your opponent isn’t playing ball, and start thinking of counter-strategies.

As I always like to say – the only time you should find yourself in a fair fight is when your strategy has failed.

hint : karma farming/character leveling etc. anything relating to exp/karma really….

^ Yes the reasons for doing it are obvious.

But what is W3 about?
Hitting doors/guards all day long with no enemies, to gain exp?
Nope that’s PvE, there’s a whole flippin PvE world out there for that purpose.

We can counter their strategy, that’s not the point here.
In fact our point lead is what leads them to desperately go for points rather than fights to begin with.

Don’t you think this is an issue though?
Or are you one of these people that sees W3 just as an easy way of leveling?

yup…. WvWvW is my leveling tool.

i’m bad. you can say anything you want about me.

So basically they fight where you are weakest instead of where you are strongest. How rude of them.

^They don’t fight us.
We can PvDoor maps faster than them thus we will always stay in point lead if that’s their strategy.

Point is.
It’s WvWvW where you’r supposed to fight vs each other, but there’s no actual fighting outside of occasional 1 time clashes before they move on to the next map.

Snow Aeth.1937:

^They don’t fight us.
We can PvDoor maps faster than them thus we will always stay in point lead if that’s their strategy.

Point is.
It’s WvWvW where you’r supposed to fight vs each other, but there’s no actual fighting outside of occasional 1 time clashes before they move on to the next map.

1) no the point is to win for the week, if they have to pvdoor to do it then they’re the ones playing right. Getting bogged down in pointless open ground fights will only increase the gap.
2) maybe there idea of fun differs from yours

You seem to think that the opposing army should be wiped by you and then continue to be wiped by you and lose all the points. You are advocating no karma, no gold, no WvW tokens, a nice repair bill and no points. Maybe you guys shouldn’t of all stacked on the same server if your not good enough for tier 1 match?
I mean if your looking for a fight evening up the server populations in the tier your fighting in IS THE SOLUTION.

Most guilds just do events in WvW which are just karma runs. They are not there to fight. Most of their guildies are low level noobs who will never do more than said events.

Snow Aeth.1937:

^They don’t fight us.
We can PvDoor maps faster than them thus we will always stay in point lead if that’s their strategy.

Point is.
It’s WvWvW where you’r supposed to fight vs each other, but there’s no actual fighting outside of occasional 1 time clashes before they move on to the next map.

If they are PvDoor’ing then that is where you are weakest.

As for what WvWvW is supposed to be about, that is entirely subjective. Personally I feel that objective based PvP is primarily about the objectives and is won by strategy rather than just mindlessly killing other people. Other people will feel differently and thus play differently. You are basically complaining that they won’t play the way you want them to play.

Don’t you think the system is flawed when people rather PvDoor because that earns points faster than actually having a fight over some tower/keep in a pvp map?
They rather pve in a pvp map…

I’m not talking about what’s the right strategy with the current system.
Yes obviously taking undefended objectives over defended ones with the current system earns you points faster.
But literally all you do is hit door+guards (PvE) then run if there are defenders and try again with a new point.

The fact that avoiding combat at all cost is the strategy to take in a war map.
Especially with a 3rd opponent that’s out of the game half of the time leaving more room for PvDoor.

I don’t think that promoting no combat and doing PvE as the proper strategy in a war map was ever Arena-Nets idea of WvWvW

I think you should probably try and understand why they are adopting that strategy. I bet its more about having a smaller force than anything else.

Ultimately though its a pretty poor strategy as a smart enemy will simply cap everything back as soon as they leave. Still a better alternative to being constantly wiped by a larger enemy force.

So no, I don’t think the system is flawed at all. I think what you have is a weaker enemy doing the best it can in difficult circumstances.

We adopted this strategy because of having to play against Sea of Sorrows for 3 weeks.

Everytime we attempted to fight them, they would wipe us with vastly superior numbers. So now we just run from fights and recap once you’re gone.

Peetee.9406:

We adopted this strategy because of having to play against Sea of Sorrows for 3 weeks.

Everytime we attempted to fight them, they would wipe us with vastly superior numbers. So now we just run from fights and recap once you’re gone.

hmmm…I think you do your server a disservice….I remember many a fight with SoR zergs of which we won some and lost some. Most hard points were defended with siege and dedication. There were times when people ran away (not too many, as running usually results in being sniped by fast moving thieves, ele’s etc and I think most players are smart enough to not make that mistake more than a couple of times) and we were left with an empty object to take. But for the most part, that was not the case.

SoR gave SoS a good run for their money. Tho, based on what you are saying, I should really say ‘The REST of SoR’ gave us a good run for our money

What they are doing is anti-zerg play. A small coordinated group can take out undefended objectives on different borderlands much faster than you can move a large group of pubbies around to defend them. I assume it’s working if you are upset by it, which means it is a good strategy. If it isn’t working, then who cares.

If you are on a server with lower night time population against one with a large night time group, this happens a lot. You cant face them head on when they have 4-5x your numbers, but you can take things here and there and make them split up, or get frustrated, or at the very least, farm some money and karma, and get a few points in the process.

Don’t complain that they aren’t so stupid as to just face plant into your zerg and siege equipment.

Shajin.5492:

What they are doing is anti-zerg play. A small coordinated group can take out undefended objectives on different borderlands much faster than you can move a large group of pubbies around to defend them. I assume it’s working if you are upset by it, which means it is a good strategy. If it isn’t working, then who cares.

If you are on a server with lower night time population against one with a large night time group, this happens a lot. You cant face them head on when they have 4-5x your numbers, but you can take things here and there and make them split up, or get frustrated, or at the very least, farm some money and karma, and get a few points in the process.

Don’t complain that they aren’t so stupid as to just face plant into your zerg and siege equipment.

ah, I see I was too vague I completely agree with the necessity of anti-zerg tactics. I was simply pointing out what I saw as a misrepresentation of facts. In the context of the discussion however, I see no issue with the tactic.

Guild Wars Fan,

Obviously we don’t run from every fight, the answer was meant to be subjective not literal.

We had many great fights with SoS the first time we met but as our server stopped logging in we had to make changes to compete.

Sanctum of Rall was the 12th server to lock full prior to free trial weekend. We have less players than most T3, T4, and T5 servers. We have to constantly change our tactics to hold in Tier 2. The real commanders here do an excellent job, Im just a wannabe with alot of time.

I love WvW but I would like to see smaller maps with less points to encourage more fighting. I’d like see to more objectives in the middle of the field as well, so two armies can meet in the open and do battle.

More like a king of the hill type game would be great.

Maybe they’ll add new maps in the future.

I would argue you can find that on Eternal Battlegrounds Raincrow. The map is very close together so everything is kind of in the middle of the field. So much so that I think it is kind of silly, and don’t particularly like playing on that map. It is more fast paced I think though.

In theory veteran points, traveling yaks, and supply camps (maybe even jumping puzzle) are points of open field, no walls, combat. If you focus on these objectives you might find more of the style of combat you are looking for.

One nice thing about walls and tower/keep fighting is it can even out to some extent the number advantage, and give the group of smaller players an advantage if they are defending.

Shajin.5492:

I would argue you can find that on Eternal Battlegrounds Raincrow.

That’s true. Good post.

Raincrow.1840:

I love WvW but I would like to see smaller maps with less points to encourage more fighting. I’d like see to more objectives in the middle of the field as well, so two armies can meet in the open and do battle.

More like a king of the hill type game would be great.

Maybe they’ll add new maps in the future.

If maps were smaller, they’d be sPvP maps.
The maps – if anything – needs to be made larger to support better tactical approach to the WvW.

Hate to tell you this, but even in SPvP you’ll find groups that seek the least resistance. Unless they actually put you group on group arena style will you see people forced to fight each other equally.

When you have multiple objectives in a game, you always go after the easiest ones that land you the most points. Flipping camps is easy until you meet a group of equal or higher power defending those camps. PvDoor is much preferred to PvDoorvP because it gets the job done.

If you want some actual PvP, petition ANet for arena-based events.

Snow Aeth.1937:

^ Yes the reasons for doing it are obvious.

But what is W3 about?
Hitting doors/guards all day long with no enemies, to gain exp?
Nope that’s PvE, there’s a whole flippin PvE world out there for that purpose.

*We can counter their strategy, that’s not the point here.
In fact our point lead is what leads them to desperately go for points rather than fights to begin with. *

Don’t you think this is an issue though?
Or are you one of these people that sees W3 just as an easy way of leveling?

So what you are saying is… You are upset they don’t fight you in an open field, or in a defended tower, while you are leading in points.

Makes sense…

^ I’m not upset about my enemy
I’m upset about the way point gaining works which leads to enemies run from all fights even the ones they can win just because it is not point efficient.

Many people would rather cap a location and run to the next due to the mentality of players. That’s something which is hard to change.(On all servers)

In addition to that you also get groups who will specifically attack a tower just to do nothing more then reset upgrades done to it if owned by an enemy server to theirs.

I am sorry the enemy wont fight you in the open field and such, but unfortunately thats how WvW is set up. Sometimes while attacking if not done quick enough it becomes useless, and a waste of time. It all depends on the circumstances.

The list goes on.

Hitting the most open targets is strategy.

Hopping from map to map follows that strategy, but it is cheap.

Instead of running the risk of encountering the enemy on the same map, having to counter each other’s plays, a team just hops to avoid all fighting all together. And those guilds you notice doing it? They are the same guilds hopping server to server.

They don’t want to play WvW. They want the most cheap and easiest “win” possible.

Generally, on the higher tier servers, the population is nearly full around the clock, so groups respond right away. The hopping group is not very efficient, and things get flipped back immediately. So the issue is minor.

But when those guilds then hop down a few tiers, purposely aiming for the cheapest fights possible… well, nothing you can do. We can tell their character, the character of the guild, and know they must resort it such a tactic because a pug group is skilled enough to wipe them. Frankly, I smile at that.

Let them be cheap. They need it.

Xandax.1753:

If maps were smaller, they’d be sPvP maps.

Holy over exaggeration batman!!

The maps – if anything – needs to be made larger to support better tactical approach to the WvW.

I don’t agree at all. Giant maps aren’t needed for a tactical battle…. they just = lots of running. Smaller maps could offer the same tactical strategies, it would simply be at a faster pace.

Thobek.1730:

Peetee.9406:

Obviously we don’t run from every fight

Lol! this coming from the guy who transferred off the server before the match started leaving SoR to fight it out.

Well SoR doesn’t run from a fight overall. You can see it in many threads where opposing servers have thanked SoR for fighting till the end and not just giving up.

1 person doesn’t equal an entire server.

It seems the problem here is that keeps are too easy to take, and aren’t terribly valuable once you take them. They’re only worth points, so people just flip them for the points.

If they had more strategic value then perhaps people would actually try to hang onto them more. In my experience, defending a keep is a huge pain. Cannons and Oil don’t work well, since they get demolished instantly. You have enormous targeting and Line of Sight issues while on the walls. Once a siege starts you have basically lost most of your mobility, which leaves your opponent free run of the map while you sit in your prison cell and wait for the door to get kicked in.

If keeps were actually intrinsically valuable, instead of just a source of points, then you’d see more people actually defend them and get more actual fights. At the moment, they’re worth more empty than they are full. Better to have your zerg out flipping stuff than stuck in a keep doing nothing.

Probably the easiest way to do this would be to make sentries a bit tougher, and have them provide more intel to either the whole map or just the guild that’s claimed the nearest keep. Something like, “I have engaged X Number of Y Server Invaders at Z supply camp!”

If you are outnumbered on a map, which is normally the case if your side is losing in overall points handily, what exactly is the benefit to “stand and fight”? To be more fodder for the meat grinder? So the enemy zerg can have more fun, while you spend time dumping gold on equipment repairs, and long runs of fruitless play where you are earning NO XP, NO gold, NO karma?

I’m simply asking you to look at it from the other side’s POV.

It’s beneficial to run, hit keeps, and run some more to rinse/repeat for the smaller/losing team. I personally think there are several factors in WvW that conglomerate to cause this. But ATM it’s the more effective, more efficient strategy for outgunned sides. And I don’t expect it to change for years.

It is a pretty decent stratergy actually. Just because they dont want to fight you does not make it unfair. Adapt your strats. Try to trap them. Do something useful instead of trying to complain here.

1: It’s extremely rewarding, in terms of tangible stuff for each player.

2: It’s extremely smart to strip down upgrades in off-peak times, also in areas where siege has “despawned” and thus makes them pay for “overextending” and not wanting to defend every piece of land they own. So when the match evens out in various peak times, you’re in a better position to play.

3: It’s extremely wise to play the “long” game, as it benefits you and your team more throughout the week.

4: It’s wise to punish the other teams for overextending and not being willing to babysit towers/keeps when you don’t have 24/7 coverage. If teams want to overextend, they have to be willing to pay the price of getting a giant sucker punch in the nuts if the other teams want to.

5. It’s wise to consolidate what people you have in one area when you’d be outnumbered and outgunned everywhere else all spread out. And hey, why not enjoy sucker-punching another team and having fun as a server, while you’re at it?

SoS are willing to hold onto the castle in EB at all costs, so SoR and IoJ are more than willing to make ‘em pay for it in the “long game.” Wildcreek and surrounding haven’t had much for upgrades the last few days, though SoS typically do hold onto stonemist long enough to rally, and get to keep the strategic advantage later on.

The epic give and take goes on.

PinCushion.7390:

Once a siege starts you have basically lost most of your mobility, which leaves your opponent free run of the map while you sit in your prison cell and wait for the door to get kicked in.

Prety much this. 2 nights ago SoS vs SBI vs JQ. SBI had taken their whole borderland and SoS was trying to regain a foothold. As we were the only game on the map (JQ was on other maps) all of SBI’s force showed up at our spawn tower to defend and we couldnt break through. Our responce, leave part of our force for the siege and send out several 5 man forces to strike all over the map throwing up orange swords and if unopposed flip targets. The result? SBI either had to strip the tower of defenses to regain mobility or loose the rest of the map. We had the tower captured in very short order after that.

Oooh, you guys are so mean. Stop using guerrilla tactics to take our camps and towers. Stop and fight so our superior forces can reacquaint you with your rightful position …. Facedown in the dirt.

Wait, stop! Why are you running over there? Come back.

Oooh, no fair!

Have people across the maps that can communicate where they’ve gone. There’s a reason WvW is 4 maps and that is to allow for strategy.

You want a good fight but they want to win the battle and/or karma and exp. A lot of people in zergs are actually not very good and a “good” fight would mean they lose. If you have communication across maps you can catch them. Don’t rely just on your guild, rely on your server.