Guild Wars 2

I was once a fan of the condition necro roaming: FEAR MEEEEEEE MUHAHAHAHAHA

But after a longer break, I am now running as a Mesmer with a double ranged power shatter or a melee power shatter setup. And with some practice I have the feeling I can beat anything. I make it my challenge to use no or just one condition removal (arcane thievery).

Here is my impression of how the dynamic with conditions and power builds is, when roaming in WvW. While condition builds are powerful and can kill you very quickly, I have the feeling, that they can be countered very well. Even if your opponent is skilled and experienced. Once you have seen past his build, there is not much he can do (even if you have only one long cool down condition removal). While for power builds, say other shatter mesmers, it is often skill as well as adaptive tactics (and luck) in a way more fast paced fight, that decides who wins the battle.

How is the impression of other roamers? Do you think one, condition or power damage, is superior? Or do you even go with a mix of it?

And please refrain from: “this or that is OP”. It is most likely not. There are certain troubling troll builds, that need very specific strategies/tactics to be countered. But that is not the norm when roaming in WvW… at least from what I have seen

in my experience, roaming as a power build is much more fun than condition builds.
People will stay to fight you because their auto attack hits you really hard compared to the tanks they’re used to hitting.

It feels like you’re playing skillfully, because if you do not dodge the enemy burst, you’re probably going to die. That means you need to be able to read your enemy to some degree.

A burst battle between a shatter mesmer and a D/D thief happens so fast that most players can’t even process what happens. landing an I-leap and swap, mirror images +Mindwrack+distortion+decoy+cry of frustration in the time it takes for the D/D thief to CnD and try to backstab, is a very short window of time. Both of those combos are probably near, if not instant kills on another glass cannon. Neither is OP because both of them are taking an enormous risk (if you consider dying in a video game a risk) to get great damage.

Condition builds however, in my experience were not as much fun to play as the glass cannons. You’re tanky. you’ve got a huge health pool, once you’ve applied you are forced to reposition to avoid the enemies burst, if they don’t run away. If they dont, you get to watch them squirm as your cripples, bleeds and burns whittle their HP away in a slow, unstoppable march to their doom.

most people run away, because you will probably have a hard time chasing them

I know many a solo roamer who simply /laugh and run around condi roamers, thieves who SR and waypoint away while the condi players try to AOE pressure around themselves. You can pick them out by their food and wrenches, and many players will go through great lengths to avoid condi builds.

I’ve also gotten the impression that there is very little respect for players who use condition builds (especially in WvW roaming) UNLESS you’re one of those players who legitamately takes 10 players to take down like a dire-krait bleed teef who dodge-rolls over dolyaks to bleed them to death and then laughs as defenders chase him and get bled to death themselves. However, those players are 1 in 10,000.

I roam as a power/hybrid warrior, power/hybrid engineer and power thief. Never full condi, though I have tried some of the cheese specs (thief and engineer).

The problem with condition specs is not so much the power of it, but the ease that comes with using the spec.

Honestly, I feel the risk/reward that comes with playing condi’s is where the unbalance is at. I am not very skilled at fighting with my thief, so I play the most forgiving power spec (d/p). I still die regularly, as I have 300 toughness and 150 vitality from gear/traits, so pretty glass. Yet, when I ventured into condi p/d, I was suddenly invincible. I had infinite get out of jail free cards, could put out incredible burst damage with bleeds/torment/confusion, and had the survivability of a tank with heal in stealth and dire gear. Whenever I met a good roamer, I could reset at will until they made one mistake too many.

You can afford to go dire on most condition specs, just because of the incredible sustained damage that comes with conditions combined with the incredible sustain to let the conditions do their job. Even if you go Rabid, which increases damage at the cost of vitality, you are still quite tanky. This is part of the reason it is so easy to play, you only really need to invest 1 offensive stat in order to be efficient.

One might argue that you need condition duration to be effective, which is true, but easily adjusted for by using+40% duration food.

I know this reply will invite people to come and tell me PVT does better damage then CVT. This is bullkitten. In any real combat situation in WvW, PVT will do little damage, whereas Dire can delete somebody in seconds.

Another funny bit of irony, a lot of these condi specs are countered by…… conditions! I guess I am doomed.

Cygnus.6903:

I roam as a power/hybrid warrior, power/hybrid engineer and power thief. Never full condi, though I have tried some of the cheese specs (thief and engineer).

The problem with condition specs is not so much the power of it, but the ease that comes with using the spec.

Honestly, I feel the risk/reward that comes with playing condi’s is where the unbalance is at. I am not very skilled at fighting with my thief, so I play the most forgiving power spec (d/p). I still die regularly, as I have 300 toughness and 150 vitality from gear/traits, so pretty glass. Yet, when I ventured into condi p/d, I was suddenly invincible. I had infinite get out of jail free cards, could put out incredible burst damage with bleeds/torment/confusion, and had the survivability of a tank with heal in stealth and dire gear. Whenever I met a good roamer, I could reset at will until they made one mistake too many.

You can afford to go dire on most condition specs, just because of the incredible sustained damage that comes with conditions combined with the incredible sustain to let the conditions do their job. Even if you go Rabid, which increases damage at the cost of vitality, you are still quite tanky. This is part of the reason it is so easy to play, you only really need to invest 1 offensive stat in order to be efficient.

One might argue that you need condition duration to be effective, which is true, but easily adjusted for by using+40% duration food.

I know this reply will invite people to come and tell me PVT does better damage then CVT. This is bullkitten. In any real combat situation in WvW, PVT will do little damage, whereas Dire can delete somebody in seconds.

Another funny bit of irony, a lot of these condi specs are countered by…… conditions! I guess I am doomed.

Only 2 classes got condi builds that is immune to conditions, ranger and necro. Fortunately neither of these builds are popular roaming juilds atm. They’re perfectly viable though.

Prysin.8542:

Only 2 classes got condi builds that is immune to conditions, ranger and necro. Fortunately neither of these builds are popular roaming juilds atm. They’re perfectly viable though.

So Diamond Skin Elementalists aren’t a thing anymore?

Power builds are just more effective overall. You hardly see any experienced roamers/roaming groups in EU running pure condi builds. It’s mostly zerker stuff with some support builds (mainly guardians) here and there.

Condi builds are just too easily countered and their average time to kill is alot higher than a power build.
With all the oh kitten buttons people carry around in wvw you need to pack as much of a punch as you can in the smallest time frame possible, which is something done less efficiently with condition damage.

cc->coordinated burst is the way most encounters go.

I run as a 2-kit (sometimes 3) condi Engi and haven’t run into many power builds that give me trouble yet. Condi’s just really easy to keep pressure with, and I have enough blocks/reflects/burst healing/dodge refresh from Sigil of Energy and kit swapping to make most power builds useless. Mesmer’s probably the only one (it’s tough to block/reflect stuff when you can barely tell where they’re coming from), and maybe a Thief if he gets the jump on me while my cooldowns are out (otherwise they’re pretty predictable and stealth is negated by the fact that they have to get in close to eat my bombs and Pry Bar; plus Gear Shield negates Backstab). Warrior can do well if they can land a string of stuns/knockdowns, but it’s extremely rare to find a Warrior that good, and even then it’s an extremely close fight.

Don’t get me wrong. I’d love a viable power build. I came into the game hoping to see big crits, not a bunch of DoTs ticking away. Just that current power builds are too easily countered, and condi is too easy to keep stacks up. I’ll switch to power if it actually becomes good enough to compete with condi burst for roaming.

Well as another power shatter mes I can safely say conditions are stupidly OP… If I get condi wrecked too much I get on my perplex/terror/dumfire necro with corrupt boon and spite signant and there is no class I have encountered that can survive that kitten 1v1 or I roll a ambush perplex condi teef and stealth spam…

TLDR: Condi has better results with less effort so in turn it’s more effective…. But power builds are more fun and require more skill.

iatemyhippo.7410:

Prysin.8542:

Only 2 classes got condi builds that is immune to conditions, ranger and necro. Fortunately neither of these builds are popular roaming juilds atm. They’re perfectly viable though.

So Diamond Skin Elementalists aren’t a thing anymore?

even in full dire it would take my ranger 2-3 seconds to break past the 90% barrier. Diamond Skin is a type of “immunity” that is gimmicy. It seems completely impossible to break through, but look at it with some logic.

Ele, guard and thief has lowest HP in game. In full Dire + stacks, an ele has around 22-23k HP in WvW. Now, to “break past” diamond skin, you must remove 2200-2300 HP (that is 10%).

Now, i know that rangers DO HAVE an advantage here mainly because of PET. Pet uses their own stats, which is separate from ranger stats. Meaning even if Ranger has zero power stat and even zero condition stats, the pet will still do damage (which is why rangers are the ONLY class that can fully exploit and benefit from nomads gear).

My ranger in its Rabid + Apoth setup will hit like a wet noodle (in terms of direct damage). Barely dealing 450 damage on crits. However the pet can and will hit in excess of 750 damage on autos and 1200 on crits. As you can see, this is where i completely and utterly destroy the Diamond Skin ele. Because pet (i am using a spider, which is ranged, therefore higher hit chance) deals “so much damage”, even my own little damage pushes the ele beyond the 90% limit very quickly (2-3 pet + ranger autos, aka roughly 2-3 seconds).

Necromancers can lifeblast the crap outta the ele or send a flesh golem at it and destroy the 90% early on.

Diamond Skin is a “one trick pony”. It gives you an early advantage, but it is not a definitive advantage. Once below the barrier, Diamond Skin does not remove or disable conditions if you get your HP above 90%. Meaning just 1-2 seconds later you are below 90% due to condition ticks.

I see there are many different opinions/experiences hopping around

I can see, why condition is considered easy and very strong for 1v1. However, I think most condi specs can be outplayed (some excluded).

For me there is a simple reason, why I stay with power. As a roamer, you not only want to destroy players, but also possibly siege or join here and there a zerg fight from the side for some loot bags. That is almost impossible for condition I think. Also the other day, I managed to intercept and kill some of the reinforcements for the enemy zerg. Don’t think I could have accomplished that with a condie build, where they have more time to reach the zerg and be free of condition worries

Also: power is more fun and it feels so rewarding to burst your enemy down xD

When it comes to 1vX, i found condi is much better than power. This is because condi only requires 2 stats (condi dmg and duration, compared to pwr,prec, fero on pwr build) allowing you to put more stats on defensive stats (much forgiving). Also power build took a huge hit after that ferocity patch. Running full condi tho has its downside too. Ppl can just laugh at you and run away cos you cant down them fast enough (unless ofc you are one of those shameless condi thieves)

BlueBoy.1236:

Running full condi tho has its downside too. Ppl can just laugh at you and run away cos you cant down them fast enough (unless ofc you are one of those shameless condi thieves)

My 11 stacks of torment as condi shatter says you won’t run away…
Also sw+sw/LB warriors can keep up with most classes using pin down, jump from sw 2 (also deal cripple) and dealing dmg to moving targets with sw 4 (5 stacks of torment).
Turning your back to a shortbow condi ranger also means death, as it will give you infinite stacks of bleed.

Not all classes can be outrun that easily…

Jeknar.6184:

BlueBoy.1236:

Running full condi tho has its downside too. Ppl can just laugh at you and run away cos you cant down them fast enough (unless ofc you are one of those shameless condi thieves)

My 11 stacks of torment as condi shatter says you won’t run away…
Also sw+sw/LB warriors can keep up with most classes using pin down, jump from sw 2 (also deal cripple) and dealing dmg to moving targets with sw 4 (5 stacks of torment).
Turning your back to a shortbow condi ranger also means death, as it will give you infinite stacks of bleed.

Not all classes can be outrun that easily…

Landing your first burst is pretty easy. Once ppl become aware of you, good luck trying to drop all of your dmging skills

Jeknar.6184:

My 11 stacks of torment as condi shatter says you won’t run away…

U first have to hit those shatters and the conditions won’t usually stay that long. I personally had a hard time making a shatter condi build work in WvW.

Jeknar.6184:

BlueBoy.1236:

Running full condi tho has its downside too. Ppl can just laugh at you and run away cos you cant down them fast enough (unless ofc you are one of those shameless condi thieves)

My 11 stacks of torment as condi shatter says you won’t run away…
Also sw+sw/LB warriors can keep up with most classes using pin down, jump from sw 2 (also deal cripple) and dealing dmg to moving targets with sw 4 (5 stacks of torment).
Turning your back to a shortbow condi ranger also means death, as it will give you infinite stacks of bleed.

Not all classes can be outrun that easily…

My rangers 5 sources (2 passive, 3 active) says otherwise, so does my mobility (leaps ftw)

If you want to zerg with condi then nothing gets close to nade engi (beware of retaliation) or trap ranger. Nade engi is better then ranger, but both can and will compete (not beat) guards wieding lootsticks.

Rangers stacks bleeds faster then thief. Trust me, it’s close between them, but SB AA with earth sigil and sharpened edges stacks 12-15 bleeds in a few seconds (and you also get fripple +

I normally play power builds. When I tried condi thief (just before the ferocity change), first few hours were hilarious, so much survival and still killing people.

Then I got bored.

Condi builds are really strong in 1 vs 1 but I think power can do much more at certain skill level. I am no pro, I still die to some condi builds, yet I think with power build I have more control over the fight. You can walk away from most condi builds, try do that with a zerker player chasing you.

The main advantage of power vs condi is that power kills fast which in a chaotic enviornment like WvW is vastly superior when you can be overrun by a zerg at any moment

Especially in 1vX you want to take down a target quickly and reset/disengage

Condi gives people more opportunities to kill you

I believe condi only holds the advantage in a fair 1v1 but those are few and far between in WvW I personally prefer power builds on my thief when I am solo roaming

Condition is much better for out numbered fights.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hm--IZqqEs8

Tricare.2946:

Condition is much better for out numbered fights.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hm--IZqqEs8

That’s literally the worst video you could have linked to support your case

If you haven’t noticed he has a guardian on him healing the crap out of him and he is never solo

You analysis is pretty good. Condi/bunker or Condi/kite are easily the most powerful roamer styles in the game. They are paint by numbers though with very little interactive skill needed for a win. Apply the same rotation with little variance, avoid getting hit and win.

Power builds are WAY more dynamic and require split second timing to pull of victories against skilled opponents. I started running a power P/P thief build for the challenge, thrill and pure rush of beating other players on skill alone.

Narkodx.1472:

Tricare.2946:

Condition is much better for out numbered fights.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hm--IZqqEs8

That’s literally the worst video you could have linked to support your case

If you haven’t noticed he has a guardian on him healing the crap out of him and he is never solo

Just because he wasn’t alone doesn’t mean he wasn’t outnumbered. I saw many parts of the video where there was 3 or more enemies, while it was only the two of them.

Either, however solo roaming is boring these days because all the cool kids like to run in groups of 5.

Narkodx.1472:

Tricare.2946:

Condition is much better for out numbered fights.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hm--IZqqEs8

That’s literally the worst video you could have linked to support your case

If you haven’t noticed he has a guardian on him healing the crap out of him and he is never solo

Seeing as how the topic is just about roaming and not solo roaming, the video shows how powerful conditions are when outnumbered. Very first fight is a 2v4+

here’s some more outnumbered fights. Very first fight is against 2 zerker mesmers, which are consider one of the better roaming classes

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QslaCEDMV6Y

Condi roaming is great for newer players. It is much more forgiving and easier to play.