Guild Wars 2

Hey all. Just wanted to start a discussion about the problematic nature of guard leech (GL) and applied fortitude (AF) and propose potential solutions to this problem.

There are several problems with GL and AF

1. The number of stat points given with full stacks: Guard Leech gives a maximum of 100 power and 100 condition damage. That is a total of 200 stat points. Pretty impressive but even more impressive is applied fortitude which can give a total of 250 stat points. With full sacks of both, you have a total of 450 additional stat points. That is a little absurd.

2. The ease of getting stacks of GL and AF: one of the arguments I have heard in favor of GL and AF is the fact that they are not totally passive, in that you have to do something in order to get them (kill guards, lords or supervisors). This task is much too easy for the benefit you get from full stacks of each. Running with a zerg and taking a camp and a tower you can easily get full stacks. Lets say theres no blob on your map. There are many guards on the map and it takes all of 10 seconds to kill the NPC who barely fights back

3. The generalization of GL and AF to every enemy in WvW: if we look at all other WvW WxP upgrades, we see that upgrades in the individual trait line benefit the player in particular situations unique to that trait line. For example, flame ram mastery’s Iron Hide applies only when using a flame ram. Cannon mastery only applies to skills used when using a cannon. Just like that, the benefits of GL and AF should apply only when fighting guards, lords or supervisors, not when fighting other things in WvW.

So, this thread is not meant to complain. It is meant to point out a problem and propose solutions. One potential solution would look like this:

1. Take guard leech and applied fortitude out of the 10 spot in both trait lines, respectively. For the 10 spot bonus in “defense against guards”, make the player immune to CC and perhaps conditions from guards, lords and supervisors. For the 10 spot bonus in “guard killer”, deal 20% more damage when a guard, lord or supervisor has less than 50% health. These are both bonuses that apply only to the particular enemies that are part of the trait line and are not generalizable to every enemy in WvW.

2. As much as I disagree with it, I understand that some people want very high stat bonuses over other players. For this, there should be two new WxP lines: Applied Fortitude and Rampager. The bonuses of the lines would look something like this:

Rampager: Gain power and condition damage as you kill enemies
(1) Gain access to stacks of Rampager (1 total). For each enemy that you kill, gain x stacks of Rampager equal to the number of stacks of Rampager they had when killed. For each stack of Rampager, you gain 20 power and 20 condition damage. Stacks are lost on death.
(2) Increases potential total stacks of Rampager by 1 (2 total).
(3) Increases potential total stacks of Rampager by 1 (3 total)
(4) Increases potential total stacks of Rampager by 1 (4 total)
(5) Increases potential total stacks of Rampager by 1 (5 total)

So, what would this do? It would allow for players who still want to have high stat advantages to do so but in a way that requires more skill and is more difficult than killing some guards. Since getting stacks requires that you kill someone with stacks, it prevents people from just ganking uplevels. Also, there is some risk vs reward. Since you get x stacks equal to your enemy’s number of stacks (capped by your total potential stacks, 5 at max), if you start with 0 stacks and defeat someone with 5 stacks, with that one kill you get the full bonus.

I think that this would be a solution to the current unbalanced nature of GL and AF. Again, I am personally of the mindset that they should just not exist, but since I know that people are very attached to these bonuses, this alternative way to get the stat bonuses might make more sense.

I was with you until #2 Solution, Rampager. That would be as bad as GL and AF.

The problem with GL and AF is that they make people who are already good and play a lot even better. They make the strong stronger.

They are the most nefarious kind of power creep. They are easy enough to get (but require a lot of time investment) so people defend them as being “ok”.

But they are a barrier to entry for new people. And they discourage casuals – people who play WvW less often.

Rampager would be worse in a way because it would reward offensive play even more than it already is and hurt even more those that play support and defense.

Only fix is to remove them completely.

I agree with you that removing them completely would be the best option. I am proposing this system because I imagine there would be too much backlash to just removing it without offering anything in its place.

If they were nerfed then nobody would grind for them, ergo ArenaNet can’t really do that.

But yes, I agree with you, especially since you only need 1 camp to get full stacks.

I wish there was as much QQing about the power creep on siege as there is on these two abilities.

Johje Holan.4607:

But they are a barrier to entry for new people. And they discourage casuals – people who play WvW less often.

Most new players, and most old ones, do not venture forth unless they are in a blob. Same goes for casuals. These are abilities are also easier for blobbers to get than for anyone that is not running in a blob.

I fail to see how a bit less HP/power is going to be a barrier to anyone playing in a blob.

WvW level will be account bound, new ways to earn Wxp (drops/buying with luarels), and as you stated to get the stacks it’s quite easy. Yet people complain about it?! I’m amazed.. Anet is making it easier for people to earn these. It use to be for the “hardcore” WvWers, but now even a casual player can earn them in no time with all the ways Anet has made available to get WvW ranks.

#dumbfounded

These are decent buffs worth working toward and offsets some of the recent up ticks in DPS from new builds. It is also one of the few buffs that is mostly earned from WvW game play rather than a ton of PvE.

first, id suggest changing rampager to grant a minimum 1 stack on player kill (so killing a player grants at least 1 stack). otherwise theres no way to generate stacks. if you meant this already, OP, it isnt written.

Johje Holan.4607:

I was with you until #2 Solution, Rampager. That would be as bad as GL and AF.

The problem with GL and AF is that they make people who are already good and play a lot even better. They make the strong stronger.

They are the most nefarious kind of power creep. They are easy enough to get (but require a lot of time investment) so people defend them as being “ok”.

But they are a barrier to entry for new people. And they discourage casuals – people who play WvW less often.

Rampager would be worse in a way because it would reward offensive play even more than it already is and hurt even more those that play support and defense.

Only fix is to remove them completely.

its an “on player kill” buff… player kills arent generated any more by offense than defense. if anything, the current method of “on guard kill” already heavily favors offensive play. defenders dont have npcs to kill. this would balance buff acquisition out somewhat.

but i agree, total removal is better.

Straegen.2938:

These are decent buffs worth working toward and offsets some of the recent up ticks in DPS from new builds. It is also one of the few buffs that is mostly earned from WvW game play rather than a ton of PvE.

guard leech adds to the uptick in dps. applied fortitude is extra validation for glass cannon builds (can survive an extra hit or 2 as they try to burst). idk, a tank spec would just get some extra damage since they can rely on stacks for survivability. imo it just swings things to more dps everywhere since you cant exactly become invincible with just 250 more vit.

insanemaniac.2456:

guard leech adds to the uptick in dps. applied fortitude is extra validation for glass cannon builds (can survive an extra hit or 2 as they try to burst). idk, a tank spec would just get some extra damage since they can rely on stacks for survivability. imo it just swings things to more dps everywhere since you cant exactly become invincible with just 250 more vit.

GL is around a 3% boost in damage to most builds. The extra vitality isn’t a big deal outside of bunker designs since it comes off really fast these days. These skills haven’t changed the class balance at all which IMO is the telltale of something broken.

This buff is earned from WvW play which makes it both rare and worthwhile. A player cannot lazy or PvE their way to this which I suspect is the real complaint here. It is also very attainable by casual players. Log around 100 hours of WvW game play and they can attain AF. Another 100 hours will give them GL. The buffs are even class neutral so everyone gets mileage from them.

Straegen.2938:

This buff is earned from WvW play which makes it both rare and worthwhile. A player cannot lazy or PvE their way to this which I suspect is the real complaint here. It is also very attainable by casual players. Log around 100 hours of WvW game play and they can attain AF. Another 100 hours will give them GL. The buffs are even class neutral so everyone gets mileage from them.

Your suspicion is wrong. I have been playing primarily wvw for months now, so not being able to obtain these buffs through PvE had nothing to do with it

And you very much can “lazy” your way to it. Run with a blob, pvdoor and flip towers. Eventually you will have both

Sepreh.5924:

Your suspicion is wrong. I have been playing primarily wvw for months now, so not being able to obtain these buffs through PvE had nothing to do with it

And you very much can “lazy” your way to it. Run with a blob, pvdoor and flip towers. Eventually you will have both

When I say lazy I mean players cannot buy it. They have to play WvW for it. I don’t care how they play WvW. At the end of the day, it still takes time in WvW to gain. IMO not too much time to feel overly difficult and not too little to feel easy. It is a WvW earned buff and there are so few of those.

Straegen.2938:

insanemaniac.2456:

guard leech adds to the uptick in dps. applied fortitude is extra validation for glass cannon builds (can survive an extra hit or 2 as they try to burst). idk, a tank spec would just get some extra damage since they can rely on stacks for survivability. imo it just swings things to more dps everywhere since you cant exactly become invincible with just 250 more vit.

GL is around a 3% boost in damage to most builds. The extra vitality isn’t a big deal outside of bunker designs since it comes off really fast these days. These skills haven’t changed the class balance at all which IMO is the telltale of something broken.

This buff is earned from WvW play which makes it both rare and worthwhile. A player cannot lazy or PvE their way to this which I suspect is the real complaint here. It is also very attainable by casual players. Log around 100 hours of WvW game play and they can attain AF. Another 100 hours will give them GL. The buffs are even class neutral so everyone gets mileage from them.

so how do the buffs offset new builds’ dps
all i see is “they add to dps” “i agree” here

insanemaniac.2456:

so how do the buffs offset new builds’ dps
all i see is “they add to dps” “i agree” here

AF is typically 2500 more HP for each player that has it activated. That is a decent buffer that frequently offsets the higher DPS we are seeing with the latest builds particularly now that toughness bypassing condi damage is back in full force.

GL is a damage buff but not much more than 3% additional DPS in most cases. Sure it is a noticeable difference but won’t make a substantial difference in most fights.

The buff is achievable with a modest effort by everyone, the buffs mostly effect everyone equally and they are earned from WvW play as opposed to a cash shop or PvE play. These are all good things. The only players who “suffer” are those that are working their way towards these buffs but that can be said for any tiered system.