Guild Wars 2

As we all know, conditions in wvw are out of control and horrendously difficult to counter. So here are my proposed changes.

Bleeding: can only go up to a stack of 5
Blind: remove completely
Burning: just fine
Chilled: remove completely
Confusion: gets removed once the damage has been done
Crippled: remove completely
Fear: once used the enemy gets a boon which means that fear cannot be placed on them for 10 seconds
Immobilize: remove completely
Poison: remove the reducing heal potency by 33% part
Torment: reduce the damage by 50%
Vulnerability: just fine
Weakness: remove completely

Now to pre-answer some of the comments that I know I will get:

“I think OP is just whining about his class not being able to counter conditions”
I main a guardian, guardians have the best condition removal in the game, if I can’t counter them with a full anti condition build; something is seriously wrong.

“I’m so tired of these anti condition posts, just learn to dodge already”
You cannot dodge most conditions and there’s only so many times you can dodge in a certain space of time.

“<insert trolling comment here>”
Grow up, this is meant to be a constructive discussion.

“Conditions are perfectly balanced, you just need to learn how to counter them”
I main a guardian, the class which has the best anti-conditions in the game. There is no counter for conditions apart from horribly expensive food + runes.

“Have you even tried using a condition class”
Yes, I’ve been forced to use a PU mesmer in certain scenarios and it’s just about impossible to be killed as one.

“LOL, this is meant to constructive and you’re already flaming”
Yes, this is meant to constructive, I’m just answering the predictable comments that I know I will get.

I am looking forward to a constructive discussion about my proposed nerfs to the condition epidemic. Also, if you post a QQ comment and have a condition spamming class in your signature, you really are just making yourself look bad.

Now that you’ve mentioned it why don’t you just remove all the conditions and condition dealing classes from the game.

They should seriously give you an award for this.

we should just remove conditions from the game completely, or at least make them as pointless as they are in pve.

Spica.9308:

Now that you’ve mentioned it why don’t you just remove all the conditions and condition dealing classes from the game.

They should seriously give you an award for this.

omg, jinx

Lol at these joke threads.

Lert.6287:

Lol at these joke threads.

this

Just imagine a necro staff skills changed from condi to raw damage. AoE crits for 3-5k.
On the other hand… please do it ANET

Silent Shino.7239:

As we all know, conditions in wvw are out of control and horrendously difficult to counter. …..

I’d be concerned that, with the amount of condition cleansing that also exits, there would be a difficult balancing needed to allow Condition builds to be effective with your suggestions..

Condition removal skills would have to be re-thought on a pretty big scale, don’t you think? As in .. no cleansing at all?

Bleed: Fine
Blind: Fine, certain skills are a little too good with it
Burning: Fine
Chilled: Could use a buff in duration on some skills
Confusion: I like the idea of removal on use, but its gonna need a massive damage increase to make that viable
Cripple: fine
Fear: Fine
Poison: The prevention of healing is the entire point of poison, its fine
Immobilize: Remove multiple stacks, that was a terrible addition, fine otherwise
Torment: Quite honestly I don’t think it should have been added.
Vuln: I’d be fine with a doubling of % on vuln. 1 stack = 2%
Weakness: is fine, could use some better application skills, maybe longer duration in some cases

What really needs changed is more access to mass boon stripping. I’d love to see stability removed as soon as it blocks something. That would make hard CCs vastly more interesting and entertaining.

To be honest i dont get all this fuss about conditions.Yes they are op in 1v1 or even SMALL scale wvw (i cant say about pvp since i dont play that mode) but the larger the group is, the more useless conditions become.If anet decides to nerf conditions because someone got wrecked by an opponent somewhere then go for it and nerf them to the ground.But dont forget to also take down some certain classes (op in 1v1) with the overpowered trinity.High damage,high mobility and high survivability.

Silent Shino.7239:

As we all know, conditions in wvw are out of control and horrendously difficult to counter.

Nope, they are fairly simple to counter, really

I main a guardian, guardians have the best condition removal in the game, if I can’t counter them with a full anti condition build; something is seriously wrong.

Or you are simply not good enough. Not meant as an insult. For your defense: When I run my condition necro, I usually have no issues against guardians. Having many cleanses doesn’t equal a good condition cleansing.

You cannot dodge most conditions and there’s only so many times you can dodge in a certain space of time.

You can not dodge all of the physical damage and hard CCs either.

I main a guardian, the class which has the best anti-conditions in the game. There is no counter for conditions apart from horribly expensive food + runes.

Simply wrong. I also would argue that Warriors have better condition cleanses than guardians. At least for themselves.

Yes, I’ve been forced to use a PU mesmer in certain scenarios and it’s just about impossible to be killed as one.

Funny, I main Mesmer and I was never forced to run PU. And I have killed plenty PU Mesmers myself, with condition damage and physical damage and hybrid damage.

Now to your suggestions. You want to remove so many conditions, that several professions would be broken. This can go either way for them. Also the reduction of bleeding to 5 stacks is ridiculous as well as the confusion suggestion. Your posts seems like you want an easy win mode.

Why don’t we just remove all forms of damage:) Then we could remove all forms of armor and wouldn’t have to worry about certain sigils/runes being OP. We could just all be clones of each other and poke each other with a point stick? Give me a break. Just as we all have to deal with hard hitting zerker classes, we have to learn to deal with conditions as well. It is what makes the game interesting. Learn to adapt your fighting style.

To bring balance back we should remove the complementary boons too: might, swiftness and fury.

Silent Shino.7239:

“I think OP is just whining about his class not being able to counter conditions”
I main a guardian, guardians have the best condition removal in the game, if I can’t counter them with a full anti condition build; something is seriously wrong.

I could tell you main a guardian as soon as you said burning was fine when all other degen conditions were overpowered.

The reason condition builds are so popular is that spike damage is much easier to counter. Conditions are also by far the best way to inflict reliable damage against all the PU mesmers and D/P thieves out there.

Where it becomes a problem is not so much the power of conditions, but the access of certain classes to so many conditions on short cooldowns. The addition of perplexity runes to take a condition designed for shutdown-specialist builds and hand them out like candy to anyone with a few interrupts just makes things even worse.

I would agree perplexity runes are an issue at this time. Yet, one could say the same for strength runes. It becomes a never ending cycle, once you begin tweeking runes/sigils. One gets nerf, sometimes in the process allowing another to become more powerful than intended. Everyone talks about balance. But really, true balance would become quite boring. There will always be some class/trait that is going to be harder to deal with for some other class/trait. I really don’t think you can, or would want, true balance.

Silent Shino.7239:

As we all know, conditions in wvw are out of control and horrendously difficult to counter. So here are my proposed changes.

WE dont know this. WE dont believe this. It’s you. You just make this assumption. stop doing that, it makes you look like a moron

Bleeding: can only go up to a stack of 5
Blind: remove completely
Burning: just fine
Chilled: remove completely
Confusion: gets removed once the damage has been done
Crippled: remove completely
Fear: once used the enemy gets a boon which means that fear cannot be placed on them for 10 seconds
Immobilize: remove completely
Poison: remove the reducing heal potency by 33% part
Torment: reduce the damage by 50%
Vulnerability: just fine
Weakness: remove completely

seems like you want to be able to ignore most stuff that is thrown at you and just roll the face over your keyboard… (actually, why not just switch to warriors? it’s pretty much what they can do right now)

“I think OP is just whining about his class not being able to counter conditions”
I main a guardian, guardians have the best condition removal in the game, if I can’t counter them with a full anti condition build; something is seriously wrong.

i tell you whats wrong: youre bad and just need to get gud.

“I’m so tired of these anti condition posts, just learn to dodge already”
You cannot dodge most conditions and there’s only so many times you can dodge in a certain space of time.

as already said: what makes you think your supposed to dodge most of them? you dont think in the same way about direct damage, dont you?

There is no counter for conditions apart from horribly expensive food + runes.

Wrong. the foods even each other out.

I am looking forward to a constructive discussion about my proposed nerfs to the condition epidemic. Also, if you post a QQ comment and have a condition spamming class in your signature, you really are just making yourself look bad.

not biased at all, huh? ‘HURR IF YOU PLAY NECRO/WHATEVER, ALL YOU SAY IS WRONG’

I know, I hate running into all those condi necro and condi engi based zergs. It’s like there is no place for a good old fashioned zerker ele or soldier warrior anymore, therefore, we should make conditions entirely irrelevant and essentially remove them from the game.

Bleeding: can only go up to a stack of 5 - might stacks can only stack to 5
Blind: remove completely - remove ageis
Burning: just fine
Chilled: remove completely - remove swiftness
Confusion: gets removed once the damage has been done - same can be said about retal
Crippled: remove completely - remove swiftness
Fear: once used the enemy gets a boon which means that fear cannot be placed on them for 10 seconds - remove stability
Immobilize: remove completely - remove vigor
Poison: remove the reducing heal potency by 33% part - remove regen
Torment: reduce the damage by 50% - fine
Vulnerability: just fine
Weakness: remove completely - remove fury.

if you want to remove conditions you need to also remove boons.

Nothing needs to be removed. Maybe we need to look at certain builds, adept certain numbers. But the cry for redesigning the whole balance on such a level is just not realistic…

@OP:

I agree that conditions are too strong, but you go overboard. I also find it strange that the most OP condi, burning, you consider ok.

Brando.1374:

Fear: once used the enemy gets a boon which means that fear cannot be placed on them for 10 seconds – remove stability

Got this wrong bro, it would be as soon as the stability prevents one cc, it gets removed and you are not allowed to prevent any more cc for the next 10 seconds.

Just nerf the + condition duration food, as well as the – condition duration to compensate.

Currently the food is so overpowered that it outpaces other food for condi users, and if they don’t take it, they’ll get overrun by people with – condi food who have to take it because they’ll get overrun by people with + condi food. A vicious circle.

Conditions are in were they are. The only issue I could see with conditions is the food buff that brings the duration up 40%. However you can counter that food with -40% food and runes.

In general the only people that complain about condition builds are from people who build pure glass. These people don’t take the -40% food or runes that also help with duration. They are generally kited to their death.

If we took your changes right now and put them in the game these same people who complain will still be complaining about something new ie. Regen Tank builds. The would scream high into the air about how they can’t burst down a class thats build with tons of healing power and regen.

Your changes would destroy 90% of all build’s for 2 classes and would actually hurt builds from other classes. Some one said earlier that if your going to make a post about nerfing condi’s then you need to nerf boons which is correct.

Also I think what you really want is DR in the game (Diminishing Returns). Just know that how this game works if condi’s had DR they would also need to put in DR on Boons.

In either case condi’s are fine and are far from broken.

As much as I don’t like conditions, if we instituted your proposed changes, what point would their being in picking a condition build over a full zerker build? As of now, I have no trouble taking out condition builds in full dire gear, but with these changes, it would make things ridiculously easy.

If your having trouble killing condition classes off, run a full zerker build, any class should do (well maybe not ranger), but aside from them, should be a cakewalk. You should easily be able to out-dps the conditions.

As has been said before, no build should excel in damage AND bunker. Its not that these condi-bunkers can alpha strike a player in seconds but that those heavy damaging attacks come attached to an extremely fortified target.

If direct damage had a combined crit chance and crit multiplier rather than two separate stats, then there would be some parity in skirmish fights.

Straegen.2938:

As has been said before, no build should excel in damage AND bunker.

And I know no build (except for some warrior builds, who come close to this description) that can achieve that.

Any discussion about conditions needs to really include boons as others have pointed out. Some of the boons and conditions appear as direct counters to each other. Like you can’t remove the heal potency reduction of poison without causing Regeneration to become overpowered. Same thing for Weakness and Vigor.

Without conditions

1. Thieves and Mesmers would still be owning everyone without a counter.
2. Massive Increase in damage for minions, turrets and pets.
3. They have to make up for all the condition damage lost by adding in massive
increase in DPS to skills. Meaning Staff Necros, Elems, Mesmers should also get
AoE Radius increases and maximum number of targets hit.
4. Remove conditions = Boons will be overpowered (Boon Builds), Hammer Builds OP
5. Without condition game will lack variety. Might as well play smash bros or
other console / arcade games.
6. If you wanna remove weakness then remove vigor + fury + might as well. Jesus
7. Even necros only have 1 torment skill with a 45 second CD. 1 burning trait
and can only get additional confusion/torment from runes.
8. Some immobilizing skills are too OP, I agree.
9. Regen Boon / Regens without Poison and Condi = Leech Wars / Heal Wars 2
10. You all plotting to remove cripple but retain swiftness = Melee / Hammer Wars 2
11. 1-2 Seconds of fear is too OP for you? Didn’t they nerf it with stun breaks? I find
it laughable how warriors/thieves get longest fear durations than Necros.

Anet is probably working on something but making game destabilizing decisions like that just because people with smash and bash builds feels so kitten in wvw is not an option. Nerf thieves QQ, Nerf Clones QQ, Nerf Hammer Trains QQ, Nerf Conditions QQ, Nerf Warriors Speed QQ, Nerf Guardians Boons QQ, and most recently due to a lot of people abusing it = Conditions QQ (in which all 8 classes use)

It needs slight rebalance and rework same way ferocity was too OP in the past. Like for example you get protect which reduces -33% damage so why not make a shell or barrier boon similar to it which reduces -33% condition damage. Make condi damage stack able in both damage and effect similar to bleed and vulnerability.

Barquiel.5610:

Your changes would destroy 90% of all build’s for 2 classes and would actually hurt builds from other classes.

There’s something wrong when these classes have certain builds that are far more effective than any other builds. Or when small-group fighting on any class demands you have certain builds to be effective.

I’m not going to rise to the bait, it’s obvious who the condition spammers are and who isn’t just by checking previous posts.

I like to point out that gw1 got along just fine without condition spam, gw2 also got along just fine in the beginning as well without so many conditions.

Also, there’s pretty much no counter for a condition necro, a thief comes close to doing it, but pretty much all other classes get screwed over. With high health and deathshrowd, the necromancer is the bane for any dps class. No amount of dps can compensate for immobilize/ weakness spam.

That’s just one example, there’s plenty more such as: condition spam warrior, condition thief, bleed you to death ranger and the condition engineer. At the moment, there’s more skilless condition builds than actual dps builds. There has even been attempts at a condition guardian.

For the record, the conditions could just be replaced by giving the character boons instead of spamming the enemy to death with conditions.

I think the only broken condition is immobilize… It shouldn’t stack.

All the others are reasonable to fight against.

Before condi wars 2 there was burst wars 2. Everyone one was wearing berserkers set and spamming dps. I suppose boon spamming is a great skill for boon wars 2.

Not sure if its a good idea comparing gw1 necro and gw2 necro. Pls. bring the gw1 necro and its awesome conditions and minions. We should be allowed to make your corpses explode.

After giving it some thought over the last few weeks (because even though most condition builds don’t bother me too much, I find them unfun to play against), my thought process always ended in the assertion that every possible condition build on necro, engineer, ranger and thief won’t be able to keep up with a direct damage or hybrid build; So you might want to say that condition damage is still way weaker than direct damage even in 1vs1 scenarios.
What really bothers me, is that most condition builds rely on sigil and rune procs to overload a target or area with so many conditions, that you are unable to react properly. This unfortunately does not only relate to condition procs from sigils and runes, but also to stuff like sigil of air and sigil of fire, which boost your damage to stupid amounts even when spamming your auto attacking.

A big step in a better direction (at least imho) would be to get rid of most direct damage and condition applying sigils. Doom and Hydromancy seem fine to me and add utility (not that I’m using any of those, but I think they have some counter play mechanisms).

Even though I don’t like to play condition damage builds myself, I’d support a severe buff in condition damage if some of the awkward mechanics would be reworked. If conditions would work without overloading a target with auto-procs out, it would be much more fun to fight a condition build. Some ideas:

• Confusion damage is buffed significantly, but — just like blindness — the whole stack is removed once you activate a spell OR
• Confusion damage is buffed slightly. Every skill activation deals confusion damage according to the number of stacks, but it also removes one stack (the shortest duration one) of it afterwards
• Torment… You can’t stand still in this game, or you die. Why is this condition even in there?
• Immobilize is important to both direct as well as condition damage builds, but immobilize stacking is no fun in a PvP environment. Immobilize should either have a 50% chance to break on hit, or it shouldn’t stack in the first place.
• Blind is a decent way of mitigating damage without wasting blocks and evades. I’d like to see it changed to have a chance of mitigating melee damage (< 130 units) by ~90% only, nonetheless, because I think it would make fighting some builds more fun and engaging for both sides. As much as I love to C’n’D-blind an earthshaker when traited in Shadow Arts on my thief, I find it ridiculous to shut down some builds and play styles so efficiently

Also some closing words: If a condition damage build cannot work without cover conditions thru sigils and runes (conditions, which the profession wouldn’t have access to otherwise), something is really going the wrong way…

Yeah nah.

Confusion is really the only condition I think there is a problem with, and that is mostly because of perplexity.

I’d probably hate torment too if I saw it more often.

The idea behind these conditions just annoy me. Punish players for moving and using their skills. Yeah, good one.

Maybe next we can add a condition for when you swap weapons or simply look at the opposition.

Silent Shino.7239:

As we all know, conditions in wvw are out of control and horrendously difficult to counter.

It’s true. Yesterday I Burned down the gate of Stonemist and then Blind-spammed the lord to death solo. And then when they came to reclaim it I put Weakness on them so they couldn’t swing their rams at the door.

All conditions are OP except the super-quick-damaging one that Guardians proc constantly, and the one that exists solely to help Power builds do more damage to things.

2/10 would not read again.

Well OP’s suggestions are bad but what I would like to see is for conditions to require intelligent play. Right now people just dump every condition they have because that’s how you win. But I guess the lack of thought behind using abilities is a wider issue with all of GW2.

Bleeding = Reduce the Max Cap to 15 for WvW/SPvP
Blind = Change it to a 50% chance to Miss and significant reduction of Ferocity/Condition Damage, doesnt vanish anymore after a hit, but stacks now also too with the Damage reduction becoming stronger with each Stack, Max Stack: 10
With 10 Stacks you miss then 100%
Burning = Reduce its damage, let it spread over like Disease to nearby foes/creatures.
Poison = Raise its Damage and reduce the Healing Reduction to only 25%, let it work also basically like Torment, that Poison deals increased damage, if the target is moving.
Vulnerability = Reduce the Max Stack to 15, but slightly increase the increased dealt damage per Stack from 1% to 2% and let it decrease minimalle per Stack Boon Duration also
Weakness = Let it Reduce Power and reduce Critical Hit Chance by 50% of the victims Max Chance, but not remove the chance for Criticals completely. So if a Player has 50% Chance, Weakness makes that player lose 25% Chance for Crits, if the Player has only 10%, he loses 5% …
Fear = Change it into Apathy, letting foes become easier to interrupt and receive damage, if they receive other new conditions after Apathy.
Cripple = Change it into a Counter to Quickness, reduces Attack Speed and disables Dodging for a short while.
Chill = Reduce Movement Speed Reduction to 50%, disables Weapon Swap/Attunement Swaps, if hit with it while under 50% Health, chance to become Frozen = Immobilize
Confusion = Reduce Max Stack to 10, slightly increase its damage, becomes a stack weaker each time the foes uses a Weapon Skill
Torment = Change it to a new Effect, that punishes victims for using Utilities, Elites or Dodges with significant damage.
Daze = Remove it
Immobilize= Rename it to Stun
Stun = the old one, remove it
Petrification = Makes you each second slower moving, until you immobilize, unable to receive damage when immobilized, toughness increases so slower you become. Becomes finally an official condition that finds its support under the Earth Skills of the Elementalists more , where such a condition should belong to and not only as a thief elite skills venom
Knockdown = Durations get reduced by 50%, they are interruptions only, not I win-conditions that make your victims totally defenseless for like 5 seconds, whats ridiculous OP. A knockdowned player should be still able to perform a dodge roll after beign KD’ed 1 second after the KD, if he/she has the endurance for it

thats what I think should have been done with all of the conditions really already a logn time ago to balance the whole game better around conditions for WvW/SPvP.
PvE is a different topic here. Its the only gameplay section, where I think all conditions should work completely different.

Silent Shino.7239:

“Burning: just fine”

" I main a guardian"

XD Ahahahahahahahahahahaha.

What’s next? “Remove blocks and invulnerability, they annoy me. But not on Guardian, it’s just fine there.”

That post made my day…

I understand that conditions are powerful, but they’re far from OP. The problem is that people don’t know how to manage them or how to counter them. As someone who has used many different condition build variations across multiple professions, I can honestly say that the vast majority of people who claim it is OP are the same people who try to mimic you in a fight by playing attrition. Conditions are DOT, damage over time. Power is instant. The best way to counter a condition build is to not give them any time to stack conditions on you. I personally hate when I come across a high DPS Warrior, Guardian, Thief… Any profession that’s high power DPS because if they know not to give me the time to wind up my conditions they’ll demolish me. Most people just panic and run around in circles like a chicken with their head cut off and rage that conditions are too OP.
Run a higher DPS build and when you come across a condition build don’t give them any breathing room. Get in their face and pressure them. If you don’t, you die. That simple really.

TyPin.9860:

Silent Shino.7239:

As we all know, conditions in wvw are out of control and horrendously difficult to counter.

Nope, they are fairly simple to counter, really

I main a guardian, guardians have the best condition removal in the game, if I can’t counter them with a full anti condition build; something is seriously wrong.

Or you are simply not good enough. Not meant as an insult. For your defense: When I run my condition necro, I usually have no issues against guardians. Having many cleanses doesn’t equal a good condition cleansing.

You cannot dodge most conditions and there’s only so many times you can dodge in a certain space of time.

You can not dodge all of the physical damage and hard CCs either.

I main a guardian, the class which has the best anti-conditions in the game. There is no counter for conditions apart from horribly expensive food + runes.

Simply wrong. I also would argue that Warriors have better condition cleanses than guardians. At least for themselves.

Yes, I’ve been forced to use a PU mesmer in certain scenarios and it’s just about impossible to be killed as one.

Funny, I main Mesmer and I was never forced to run PU. And I have killed plenty PU Mesmers myself, with condition damage and physical damage and hybrid damage.

Now to your suggestions. You want to remove so many conditions, that several professions would be broken. This can go either way for them. Also the reduction of bleeding to 5 stacks is ridiculous as well as the confusion suggestion. Your posts seems like you want an easy win mode.

I can’t help it….. TyPin, now I get it, no wonder all the warrior hate. Cause you play a condition Necro. Yeah warrior kinda hard counters Necro most of the time. I can’t think of a case I lost to one.

But as a condition warrior, yeah condition need to be look at, but not quiet as drastic as the OP suggests.

Warrior hate? Where did you get that from? I beat most warriors I meat roaming in WvW on my condi spec. Not all, but most.

Conditions are fine, the condition food is weird though. Funny thing is in sPvP, where I am currently testing the warrior profession first hand, I can also handle most necromancers in a 1v1 situation.

It’s funny how one thread concerning the warrior profession marks you as a warrior hater… Read my posts in that thread and you’ll see how much of a hater I am. Ohhh… soooooo much hate, sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much…

lel, constructive discussion and you only whine about what should be removed without any arguments to actually back it up why. The only condition that needs to be removed is torment – in game where moving is core mechanic, torment is just wrong. Nothing else needs to be removed, only reworked, but that means it will affect PvE, and WvW is in the same bucket with PvE.
Looks like a just a just another thread where you seek attention.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Sick-of-condi-builds-when-roaming
^ a thread with few constructive posts.