Guild Wars 2

It’s a PvP zone … people go there to kill other players. I’m not really sure what you were expecting. Since you can get siege blueprints from the chest, it’s in their best interest to make sure you guys don’t finish it.

It makes perfect sense. They want to fight other people, and that place is almost always guaranteed to have people. They stay, because you keep trying and failing for six hours.

I’m not sure what video you’re talking about, though.

They used to give quite a few WvW tokens…but that was in beta. Not sure whether they still do or not.

Anonymous.6935:

I don’t understand why you’d want to do a puzzle game anyway. It’s just a pointless, sometimes frustrating jumping puzzle, which leads to barely any reward or satisfaction, and some virtual number to add to your pointless achievements number.

Forgive me if i’m wrong and there’s some fantastic reason I should be doing these frustrating puzzles! If so, enlighten me! Thanks.

It’s the same thing for some people who beat a game with achievements or trophies, they go back through and try to farm all the achievements and to them it’s “content”, but really it’s just a cheap way to extend the longevity of the game.

I somewhat feel like this game has done that. Thrown trophies and achievements all around to extend or elude people into thinking there is more to do.

lol u mad?

Shadowlancer.7102:

Rainshine.5493:

It makes perfect sense. They want to fight other people, and that place is almost always guaranteed to have people. They stay, because you keep trying and failing for six hours.

I’m not sure what video you’re talking about, though.

If I wanted to fight someone, theirs the mists, if I wanted to play WvW, I would defend a keep, scout an area, or attack a keep to fight people.

So because a few people go to the puzzle area, they are going to sit there for 6+ hours, not doing anything productive but to grief?

Isn’t that a bit a counter to what WvW was meant for? On top of that, sitting their waiting for players is the same thing as AFKing and taking spots in WvW when other players that are waiting in the 30 minute to 1 hour long queues to actually play.

I remain unconvinced why this makes perfect sense.

its certainly got u ruffled so all their effort hasnt been a waste

Shadowlancer.7102:

Rainshine.5493:

It’s a PvP zone … people go there to kill other players. I’m not really sure what you were expecting. Since you can get siege blueprints from the chest, it’s in their best interest to make sure you guys don’t finish it.

I would totally agree but if I remembered from a Arenanet video puzzles were not suppose to be required or play a part of any WvW as an advantage, the rewards were offered to be for your time doing the puzzle.

On top of that, Ectoplasms on Black Lion Trade are easily 18-22 silver on average for quick buy out. In that same amount of time I spent, 6+ hours, I could had farmed PvE for a good 7+ Ectos, giving me more than 7+ Blue Prints.

So again, with the rewards so minimal, why are 10-15 people protecting a puzzle game?

It just makes no sense.

I sincerely do not understand your argument. First you state that your time could be better spent farming in PvE — good, so go do that. Why are you doing a jumping puzzle if you admit your time is better spent elsewhere?

Secondly, you admit you spent 6 hours fighting there, but then get confused why anyone else would want to hang out there. Maybe because it is guaranteed small-scale PvP with a ‘king of the hill’ atmosphere and is actually kind of fun?

Yeah its griefing, but you don’t have to do the jumping puzzle. If you are getting camped there just walk away. Walk away and don’t get mad about it.

The puzzles in WvW shouldnt be required for map completion, simple as that. WvW is a PvP zone, by entering WvW you are consenting to PvP. There is no such thing as griefing in WvW, if you dont like PvP and you enter WvW you are griefing yourself.

Players that you accuse of griefing are there to PvP they are not griefing. If anything, you are griefing them by complaining about being PvPd in a PvP zone. If you dont like cooking, stay out of the kitchen.

I suspect they are there to annoy people like yourself who are so intent on doing meaningless puzzles. By the looks of it they are succeeding. I see no harm in it.

Shadowlancer.7102:

Elthurien.8356:

The puzzles in WvW shouldnt be requires for map completion, simple as that. WvW is a PvP zone, by entering WvW you are consenting to PvP. There is no such thing as griefing in WvW, if you dont like PvP and you enter WvW you are griefing yourself.

Then I might as well throw in the argument for people that don’t like, care, or bother with PvP, should remove the Puzzles since it is just but PvE idea, or remove them from the achievement list.

which is why i said in the post YOU just quoted that they should not be part of world map completion. Removing it from your PvE list of ‘must have’ completions. They should not be removed from WvW however as they are a way for us WvWers to get siege blueprints and a great source of PvP.

I dont want this to be an US vs Them arguement, I respect that you dont like PvP, thats fine with me, just dont try to dictate that this is YOUR PvE content because it is not (It’s in WvW for a reason, they have player controlled traps and choke points for a reason, it is by design)

He’s attempting to accomplish the PvE mindset while in a PvP orientated place. I agree though, it shouldn’t be there for completion just solely for PvP control

Agree, I’m not sure why there are world completion events in a PvP zone. I had no intention of doing WvW and yet I’m having it forced down my throat in order to get world completion and I’m getting griefed while trying to do. It’s also completely counterintuitive to the fact that while I, and others are trying to get the completion objectives we’re taking up queue slots that would be better served for players who actually want to participate in WvW.

Shadowlancer.7102:

Then I read saying that if I keep trying to do the puzzle I am griefing myself in the process, which is a no brainer, a flaw in the idea itself.

Not really. YOU decided that getting killed over and over again — doing the exact same thing that got you killed however many times before was somehow someone else’s fault. You didn’t have to go back there. You didn’t have to do it right that second.

“Not” PvPing because they are sitting their waiting for people to come to them

Well apparently they PvP’ed you for 6 hours. Is it directly contributing to the realm score? No. One could argue it’s tying up people from the other side, so it’s not totally pointless. Moreover, they are obviously having fun with a King of the Hill type engagement, which sPvP does not provide.

Complaining because you go into the ONLY PvP area in the game and get PvP’ed is rather silly, imo.

Anonymous.6935:

I don’t understand why you’d want to do a puzzle game anyway. It’s just a pointless, sometimes frustrating jumping puzzle, which leads to barely any reward or satisfaction, and some virtual number to add to your pointless achievements number.

Forgive me if i’m wrong and there’s some fantastic reason I should be doing these frustrating puzzles! If so, enlighten me! Thanks.

Someone who clearly never played Super Mario bros. (or any other platform games, since the only reward I ever got out of them was the fun I had). Some people enjoy the challenge, even without a reward ^^.

@Shadowlancer
I understand your frustration because the puzzle is apparently required for your completion which is why I agree with you in that it just should not be required for PvE orientated completions.

However, I do not agree that the puzzle should be removed at all. It doesn’t serve a purpose for WvW but it does serve a purpose for PvP players because it provides a nice little playground for those that like the added challenge of PvP with their Puzzles.
I would also like it to be separated from the Queue of the map it is located in so that players wanting to WvW arent loitering in Lions Arch because 20 players are in the puzzle wasting the most valuable resource in WvW (players).

If Anet can resolve those three issues they will have happy players in all three camps, the PvErs wont need to go there, the ambushers can still have fun and the WvWers can have a full complement of players on their map.

Shadowlancer.7102:

Right now both PvE and PvP posters have has said many times in their own words, its not contributing enough to the cause or justifies it.

They are having fun fighting other people. That’s the cause, that’s the justification. They have fun.

I dunno if you’ve tried any sPvP, but it’s more about spreading out and taking capture points, not actual team fighting — the maps are designed to spread you out into ones and twos.

Shadowlancer.7102:

Elthurien.8356:

@Shadowlancer
I understand your frustration because the puzzle is apparently required for your completion which is why I agree with you in that it just should not be required for PvE orientated completions.

However, I do not agree that the puzzle should be removed at all. It doesn’t serve a purpose for WvW but it does serve a purpose for PvP players because it provides a nice little playground for those that like the added challenge of PvP with their Puzzles.
I would also like it to be separated from the Queue of the map it is located in so that players wanting to WvW arent loitering in Lions Arch because 20 players are in the puzzle wasting the most valuable resource in WvW (players).

If Anet can resolve those three issues they will have happy players in all three camps, the PvErs wont need to go there, the ambushers can still have fun and the WvWers can have a full complement of players on their map.

I only suggested the puzzle be removed. Now if you read my previous posts, that the puzzle should be up-to-par to PvP standards and there fore should completely change the Puzzle to be a PvP environment Puzzle.

Traps are a good start but their needs to be more.

Well I can agree to that also, while i dont think it needs to contribute to WvW scoring, the map design could be tailored a little better to PvP with less
open air environment and more maze-like structure with choke points etc. I also think it would be better without siege deployment but thats because i feel it should be tailored toward a more ‘up close and personal’ PvP experience. Siege is a zerg countermeasure, not really required or wanted for the puzzle PvP.

Just out of curiosity, why didn’t you enlist some help and clear them out of there? The vast majority of people in WvW are there to PvP and probably would have been happy to take on an organized group.

Yes, I’ve killed members of the other faction trying to get to the skill point or do an event in WvW. I don’t consider that griefing, it’s part of the challenge of getting 100% map completion. I’ve also protected members of my own faction so they could get the skill point/vista/etc. I don’t camp those spots, because it bores me, but it is the most efficient way to get into skirmishes with other players. They’re just farming badges, and you’re an easy target because you aren’t playing smart.

This doesn’t require some sort of complicated solution. It requires that you get some folks from your side to help you. If the other side is too organized and you can’t beat them, well they won that round. Come back another day. Yes it stinks with the queue times on some servers, but 100% world completion isn’t required to progress. Wait until you have a more favorable match up for your shard.

And yes, 100% world completion should mean that you experienced the entire world including the WvWvW areas. Several of my guild mates have achieved 100% world completion and we’re proud of them because it’s not easy. If you don’t want to PvP, that’s your choice, but you shouldn’t get an achievement for world completion.

The puzzle quest is fine as is. If anything they should just remove that one from being needed to get trophy completion. But I don’t agree with that. You chose to enter a PLAYER vs PLAYER zone. If you don’t want the hassle of being killed in that zone by another player then don’t go there. If you want your completion trophy then you’ll just have to suck it up.

Is there actually a good reason why vistas in wvwvw are required for world completion? It reminds me of JQ/FA back in gw1, where people would just run mindlessly around trying to get their fuzz for cartographer, but not contribute anything to the fight.

Logic says these same people will pop into wvw, and attempt to get the things they need, and leave. This takes up spots for actual pvp-ers, and honestly provides nothing to the pve player other than possibly some repair bills. If someone is in the wvw map, they should be there to play. They shouldn’t have to go there to complete vistas. This makes no sense.

Shame on those pvpers doing pvp in a pvp zone, how could they do such a thing.

that puzzle gives you siege blueprints its such a huge help to the group if you cant afford them to get them from there.

I just find it funny that i’ve seen mesmers able to teleport people up to the arena cliff camping area from the very first part of the puzzle which makes it easy for guilds/groups to assemble camps once they get a single mesmer up there.

Fightfan.1859:

The puzzle quest is fine as is. If anything they should just remove that one from being needed to get trophy completion.

That’s the source of the problem. Same for the monthly completion achievement, you are forced into PvP, which isn’t normal and goes against the GW2 philosophy of catering to all play styles.
I have people in my guild absolutely not interested in PvP, but who are achievers who will want 100% world completion. Forcing those people into PvP is nonsensical, and this should be changed. ANet should simply add a “PvP world completion” and separate both.

zhonnika.1784:

Is there actually a good reason why vistas in wvwvw are required for world completion? It reminds me of JQ/FA back in gw1, where people would just run mindlessly around trying to get their fuzz for cartographer, but not contribute anything to the fight.

Logic says these same people will pop into wvw, and attempt to get the things they need, and leave. This takes up spots for actual pvp-ers, and honestly provides nothing to the pve player other than possibly some repair bills. If someone is in the wvw map, they should be there to play. They shouldn’t have to go there to complete vistas. This makes no sense.

And there’s this too, of course!

the “griefing” part is fine, if you enter a pvp battleground, you accept being PKed for whatever reason the aggressor may have, even if its to ruin your explorer fun. BUT making WvW maps relevant for PVE players seems like a huge design flaw to me. They should be taken from completion requirements, forcing PVE players to mix with the PVP crowd only results in drama noone needs,

Korrigan.4837:

I have people in my guild absolutely not interested in PvP, but who are achievers who will want 100% world completion. Forcing those people into PvP is nonsensical, and this should be changed. ANet should simply add a “PvP world completion” and separate both.

If you want 100% world completion, you should experience 100% of the world, which includes PvP. Why should you only experience part of the game and get the medal? It’s an achievement, not something you have to get past to enjoy the other parts of the game.

I think putting the world completion points in the WvW zones is a good idea. It encourages folks to try out WvW who might not have otherwise. Some folks that try it might even like it.

There is a very simple way to deal with enemy players that are annoying you – you kill them. If they persist, you kill them, their friends, and their pack mules. If they’re really hard headed about it, you push them off the map back into their keep and hold a dance party outside.

If you can’t get enough folks interested in clearing out the campers, then you have to wait and try again at a more opportune time.

I saw a ranger doing a mini puzzle to get to a vista in WvW yesterday.

I let her finish before dispatching her to the afterlife.

/gentleman

The whole issue with the jumping puzzle has to do with grinding out the WvW tokens needed for the Legendary Weapon line. While people are still figuring out all of the final ingredients necessary for the Legendary item, one of the confirmed ingredients is 250 WvW tokens. With the drop rates being rather spotty from standard WvW kills, this is driving everyone towards the jumping puzzles. However at the same time, there is often 1 or 2 servers on a guild who devotes themself to camping these things. It’s a perfectly legal strategy, but extremely aggravating to a lot of people.

Sorry but you do not need justification or progression to pvp in a pvp zone.

Red is dead is a common mindset . If you find it aggravating then tough, you should expect there are plenty who like aggravating other folk in pvp. Your choice is either kill them, leave and come back later or quit in failure and come here onto the boards and QQ about it.

well we now know which one you choose to do eh ?

Wow you guys are getting pissy because you’re getting knocked off a jumping puzzle by griefers…. In a PVP area…. Just do what I do, apply stability, jump to where they are immediately afterward and launch theirkitten off the platform and gut them like a pig! Then I can skip along my way an finish my puzzle and collect my prints in like a grand total of an hour… Geez, why are some of you even -IN- WvWvW…

its called badge farming.

questions is why is there so much PvE that got nothing to do with WvW in the only real pvp area in the game?

Premixed.4567:

Most “open-world” PvP has always been about people with power issues. The ones who actively seek out lower leveled players, or other situations where the other player has no chance, or you’re just pushing people off of things are there to get their kicks and feel better about themselves. They dont value honor or things like overall wins. they want that personal moment where they feel powerful for being able to affect other people.

That said, having a jumping puzzle in a designated pvp zone is a very silly idea unless it gives pvp rewards.

Pretty much this, think of a WoW pvp server. That’s what WvW is. Horrible, imo. I don’t think there should be any pve in pvp zones like puzzles or mobs except for NPCs in your base. Just virgins on a power trip, don’t bother trying to do the puzzle, or get a bunch of people together and try and do it.

Wow you guys are getting pissy because you’re getting knocked off a jumping puzzle by griefers…. In a PVP area…. Just do what I do, apply stability, jump to where they are immediately afterward and launch theirkitten off the platform and gut them like a pig!

The thing about that is, between them keeping you in combat, and thus reducing your movement speed to the point where it’s nearly impossible to make most of the jumps, even with swiftness, and the fact that one of the most popular griefing spots is in a place where climbing up to a point where you can actually reach them takes almost a full minute, your stability is worth nothing.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/gw023l.jpg/

Notice how they’re building several arrow carts and catapults up there as well.
Also, since they have mesmers up there, they can just make portals to new people from their server coming in at the bottom of that room and instantly port them up, as well as the few of them that either fall down or get pulled down.

If the area was in any way possible to fight in from the lower ground, I wouldn’t mind this, but it is literally impossible to get up there when there’s a handful of people making arrow carts and camping the top, unless you come in and outnumber then 4:1, at least. Even then it would likely take forever.

The thing with the 100% completion also goes towards legendaries, you need Gift of Exploration if you ever want to go for a legendary weapon.

Ofcourse you apparently also need atleast 500 WvW tokens to get a legendary weapon.
Anyway, I like WvW myself, but forcing PvE’ers only into PvP to actually complete their 100% world completion, does indeed seem a bit odd.

Honestly, I am more annoyed that puzzle players are taking up precious wvwvw space. Yesterday, the self proclaimed commander was there for 4 hours. Just remove the puzzles.

I don’t think this counts as griefing. Since the puzzle is in a WvW area it’s a legitimate point of control in PvP, even if it doesn’t actually contribute to winning the map.

I agree the solution is to remove puzzle points from PvP areas if they count towards a PvE goal.

Anet think of WvW as “soft” PvP for PvE players and have done everything in their power to make it a non-griefable, non-trash talking area. Maybe they thought it would be fun to give it more PvE attractions – but I don’t see a reason to put puzzles there at all.

It does seem odd, given ANet’s stated aim to reduce griefing wherever/whenever possible, that they’d include these puzzles (which are needed for world completion) in pvp zones. They had to know this was going to be a problem for those who don’t like to pvp.

It would be interesting to hear their rationale behind such placements.

If you are in a PvP zone then whatever you are doing is a PvP activity.

Farming enemies for drops or money? It’s a PvP activity.
Trying to do a jumping puzzle? It’s a PvP activity.
Assaulting a keep? It’s a PvP activity.
Standing around AFK? It’s a PvP activity.

As long as you have your PvP flag set to “on”, you are participating in a PvP activity.

Yeah, I think the intent was to urge players into areas of interest so there won’t be so much aimless milling about. It seems like this is exactly what they wanted.

It’s simple..

The reason they are camped there is for one reason and one reason only..

To farm the players { for badges } that have all there concentration on doing the jumping puzzle rather than looking out for other players.

It’s an easy kill for them and by that token it should be flagged as griefing..

Or… like others have said take the puzzle achievment OUT of a pvp area.

I have no interest in PvP never have and never will. but to get my 100% map achievment it seems i have to go into there and run around avoiding other players to get all my achievments done.

This is wrong, and should be changed.

I will tell you what i have been doing to try and avoid this situation, last night i was in game until 3 am in the morning my time, running around with a speed boost on trying to get all the points of interest.. vista’s.. and skill challenges done before i got zerged and gang killed by these idiots..

Luckily there wasnt many on but a few french guys/girls and when they did attack me i just bowed at them and didnt fight back and they left me alone, but im still not 100% finished so i have to go back.

So Anet… what are you going to do about it..?? why put pve content in a pvp enviroment and FORCE us people that have no interest in it to go there..

{waiting for a suitable answer}

Rainshine.5493:

It makes perfect sense. They want to fight other people, and that place is almost always guaranteed to have people. They stay, because you keep trying and failing for six hours.

I’m not sure what video you’re talking about, though.

This.

It’s an area that people go to within a pvp zone.

Did you really expect to not find pvpers waiting for you?

I camped the jumping puzzle of a french server with a ballista for over an hour today, was fun.

Simple, it’s not PvE content, it’s PvP content. The rewards you get from doing them (blueprints, for example) are PvP, and it’s in the enemy server’s best interest to prevent you from getting them since it might be later used against them. IIRC from when the PvP dungeon was announced it was announced as a competitive area where you can attack and hinder other players progress.

And well, I guess making them necesary for the 100% map thing is their way to say that that is not a PvE activity but a game activity, and the game includes PvP, so to get 100% map completion you also need PvP completion.

I guess one way would be to separate 100% PvE completion, 100% PvP completion and 100% map completion.

I can understand Op it is like this. High ranged classes like the ele, range or mesmer camp certain spots where you have to expose yourself and can’t hit back . While this is tactic and all it is beyond lamery ( I totaly didn’t mack up this word )if 5-15 ppl stay at one spot and use there range spells. The Mesmer is the 1 douchbags at this becaus his GS 1 skill ignores walls (dunno if that it is intended but WHO CARES i can’t could not even report him from bug using if I want). Also dunno if they changed it , but last time I checked you can build up siged wapones in the jumping puzzle and now you srsly want to tell me this is and kind of fun? So we gone play from now on WvW and how first rushs the camp spot and does not die to bordem? Either limit the time palyers can spent in a certain part of the puzzle or give ppl that get into such a place some kind of way to get past it the invis buff does not last enouh to get through the well acorss the platform, through the dark area and up the areana to not get camped. At least I can’t if the camara zoomes all the time into your head as an Asura but that is a other problem.

But to all the ppl that think it is fine, if you don’t see that certain parts of the game a rushed, proabably bcause of NCsoft then sry. I can’t help you.

I understand the points others have brought up about PvE objectives being in PvP zones; I just wanted to point out a very important fact.

PvP in a PvP zone is not griefing.

The other points are fine, and agreeable, even, but cannot emphasize the fact enough.

Wow, really? So PvP monthly achievements are now “forcing” you to do PvP content? When the heck were achievements required at all?

100% Map completion isn’t all that important, either, for that matter. You get an ingredient to build a legendary weapon, but the legendary weapon is only really useful in PvP environments (you can do all the level 80 content with what you got, trust me). So why do you want it so much? The rewards have no practical purpose for you.

Katai.6240:

Wow, really? So PvP monthly achievements are now “forcing” you to do PvP content? When the heck were achievements required at all?

100% Map completion isn’t all that important, either, for that matter. You get an ingredient to build a legendary weapon, but the legendary weapon is only really useful in PvP environments (you can do all the level 80 content with what you got, trust me). So why do you want it so much? The rewards have no practical purpose for you.

When talking about how “required” something is in a fantasy world, which we play not because we must but because we want to, you come of looking a bit silly.

There is nothing in the game which is required, the game itself is not required. If someone wants to play for exploration, then that’s perfectly fine. They are not required to play the game the way that you personally enjoy.

Nothing that I will ever do in the game will ever have any practical purpose, other than entertainment. And that’s subjective with each person enjoying different things.

Katai.6240:

Wow, really? So PvP monthly achievements are now “forcing” you to do PvP content? When the heck were achievements required at all?

100% Map completion isn’t all that important, either, for that matter. You get an ingredient to build a legendary weapon, but the legendary weapon is only really useful in PvP environments (you can do all the level 80 content with what you got, trust me). So why do you want it so much? The rewards have no practical purpose for you.

You do know the legendary weapon’s stats are no better than a regular exotic, right?

That said, you make a good point. You do not, under any circumstance, need to set foot in WvW, or complete any jumping puzzles, or do any map completions to advance your character to its most powerful level. There’s no, “Oh, I hate X aspect of the game, but I have to do it if I want to be competitive in the aspect(s) I do enjoy.”

All this talk about being “forced” to do something is ludicrous.

I want the dungeon armor skins, but I hate PVE. Why is Arena Net forcing me to do something I don’t wanna do just to get what I want?! It’s sooo unfair!

That’s basically the same argument as removing the WvW areas from world completion. It’s equivalent to wanting raid armor without wanting to participate in raids. The underlying assumption being made by the folks that want 100% world completion without having to experience 100% of the world is that Guild Wars is a PvE game with PvP added on. That simply isn’t the case. PvP is an integral part of Guild Wars, and there should be rewards that you can’t get unless you PvP.

Is it hard to take out 15 people camping a spot from a tactically superior position? Yes, it is. Is it impossible? No. I understand not wanting to PvP. What I don’t understand is wanting the rules changed so that you can get an accomplishment that other folks had to work a lot harder for.

I’m not a particularly hard core PvPer. I got 100% map completion in one of the borderlands running as a duo with my husband at um I think we were in our early 30s. We killed a group of 4 enemies trying to complete the centaur event on our way to one skill point, had a pair of enemies trip and fall off a cliff right in front of us on our way back out (yes, killed them too, it’s war after all), and that was the sum total of the PvP I was “forced” to do. I waited until our shard had control of the map because I wasn’t in the mood for a lot of fighting.

Is it hard to take out 15 people camping a spot from a tactically superior position? Yes, it is. Is it impossible? No. I understand not wanting to PvP. What I don’t understand is wanting the rules changed so that you can get an accomplishment that other folks had to work a lot harder for.

Sorry but incorrect…

Because when 90% of the server got that achievment there wasnt 15 people camped at the top of the jumping puzzle with arrow carts etc to shoot you off it…

It doesnt make the game ’’fun’’ or enjoyable when you have to sit up until 2 am in the morning when there is no one else around before you can go and do something..

THAT ISN’T A FUN GAME

You should not be doing puzzles in WvW.
There should be no puzzles in WvW.
There should be no mobs in WvW.
There should be no gathering in WvW.
Map completion should not include WvW.
Or at least, fix the queues.

Joining WvW to do the jumping puzzle is a bit like going to a rollercoaster park to ride the carousel…

I mean there are tons of jumping puzzles in the game where you won’t get ganked… why take up a place in queue for a PvP zone when you don’t want to PvP? You’re taking the place of someone who would help your team.