Guild Wars 2

So you got one guy from NSP and one guy from FC. you just downed them both in a 3 way fight but what do you do? as soon as you stomp one, the other rallies, if you stomp the other guy the other guy rallies. good luck killing them both at the exact same time.
Do you see the problem? At this point IDC about downstate. OK its rly dumb and this and that but the RALLYING is what I cant stand. you already have sooooooo much HP in downstate and you can rally yourself if left alone for long enough. Why not remove rallying off killing someone in WVW to at least SORT OF make zerging less forgiving. If Im in a 2v4 and me and my buddy manage to down 2 of them shouldnt we be rewarded by having gotten 2 of them out of the fight rather than having them keep 1 spamming us as their bunker ally revives them through our mad attempts of DPS and attempting to stomp? Not only that. If I have 2 down and my friend gets stomped then both come back up and eat me alive rather than I kill both of them and deal with the other 2 on my time. See the dilemma here?
Anet wants to reward smaller groups more? easy fix rallying in downstate for at least WVW to make it less forgiving and more situational (see a opening to help your buddy up since he is momentarily out of danger) NOT well ima just keep the DPS and OHHH LOOK hes back up im so helpful!!!11!!!11!1

i completely agree. the downed state in itself isn’t too bad, but the rally mechanic is just plain horrible. one guy gets killed in a ZvZ, and half of the other zerg pops right back up. tag an NPC monster, get dropped well away from it, have a buddy finish the monster off, pop right back up. go from winning a close fight to being completely screwed because something somewhere actually got killed.

The ability to rally is by far the worst part of any PvP in this game

Rally, the downed penalty, and ressing all need adjustments in WvW.

No you shouldn’t rally off of a deer (or whatever).

No you shouldn’t have as much hp as you do when downed.

No you shouldn’t be able to just get quickly massed ressed (just put a DR on the hp healed by additional people or something).

These things are fine in PvE/tPvP… but WvW is another beast altogether and needs to have its own rules tweaked. In WvW the current rules just favor larger numbers of people. Hence all of the hurr durr zergs running around.

Downed state is garbage. It is only “okay” in super small (see: 5v5 or less) team fights, where each person makes a difference. When there is a zerg of like 60 and a bunch of NPC in the area you’re fighting as well as players and people are rallying constantly, it’s totally lame. Downed state just needs to be removed in WvW and suddenly the way people play will change dramatically. People who are bad and suicide/chase people will actually become detrimental to the group and not just another noob they can resurrect or someone that can rally and rejoin the fight.

It’s not that rallying is a bad idea or that it’s totally broken atm, it’s that it’s too easy to achieve.

For example, if you required a higher threshold, such as 25% of someone’s hp to achieve a rally you could significantly cut down on rallies. If rezzing near a battle was 50% as fast as rezzing in combat, people would be rezzed mid fight alot less.

Right now rallies can be out of control because you can faceroll and tag 10-20 people before being downed and rally when ANY of them die because you did like 5% damage to them.

I agree. There has been a lot of threads about this lately and zero anet acknowledgement about this serious problem. Your group can do everything right in a zerg fight but all it takes is one random uplevel to die and the entire enemy zerg gets rezzed…

Mada.5319:

I agree. There has been a lot of threads about this lately and zero anet acknowledgement about this serious problem. Your group can do everything right in a zerg fight but all it takes is one random uplevel to die and the entire enemy zerg gets rezzed…

well, that begs the question of how long will it be before they say that’s it’s their anti-zerg mechanic, and that it’s working as intended?

I love it, one of the best aspects of the game. Learn to deal with it.

MiLkZz.4789:

I love it, one of the best aspects of the game. Learn to deal with it.

I agree. +1

need to set limits for five people. As it did with the combo finishers

a limit of 1 person is far more fair

The power ressing and massive amounts of health in downed state make sense in pve that is build around 1hit bosses. For some unknown reason anet just dumbed the same rules into WvW and assumed it would work.
I actually do think that downed state and rally as ideas are allright. It’s just that currently their values are tuned for pve making them inbalanced and frustrating features. Nothing like rallying from a random forest animal and then doing the warrior whirling attack on the dude who tried to stomp me… xD

I agree, the rally mechanic is one of the most absurb things I’ve ever seen in a pvp game.

I think they should’ve stuck with dedicated healers.

Israel.7056:

I think they should’ve stuck with dedicated healers.

So true.

Epic.3950:

So you got one guy from NSP and one guy from FC. you just downed them both in a 3 way fight but what do you do? as soon as you stomp one, the other rallies, if you stomp the other guy the other guy rallies. good luck killing them both at the exact same time.
Do you see the problem? At this point IDC about downstate. OK its rly dumb and this and that but the RALLYING is what I cant stand. you already have sooooooo much HP in downstate and you can rally yourself if left alone for long enough. Why not remove rallying off killing someone in WVW to at least SORT OF make zerging less forgiving. If Im in a 2v4 and me and my buddy manage to down 2 of them shouldnt we be rewarded by having gotten 2 of them out of the fight rather than having them keep 1 spamming us as their bunker ally revives them through our mad attempts of DPS and attempting to stomp? Not only that. If I have 2 down and my friend gets stomped then both come back up and eat me alive rather than I kill both of them and deal with the other 2 on my time. See the dilemma here?
Anet wants to reward smaller groups more? easy fix rallying in downstate for at least WVW to make it less forgiving and more situational (see a opening to help your buddy up since he is momentarily out of danger) NOT well ima just keep the DPS and OHHH LOOK hes back up im so helpful!!!11!!!11!1

It’s simiple, down one person, move the fight away from him while dealing damage occasionally. The downed guy will probably just die while you don’t have to bother with him. If he doesn’t die by the time you stomp the second, go back and stomp him. There are always ways around it.
Whenever there is a mechanic people don’t like, that somehow translates to Anet is actually encouraging large zergs instead of small team roaming

I don’t understand all these complaints.

In the time I’ve been in WvW, rallying is one of the biggest tools I use as a small group. It benefits the people who know how to use the mechanic and punishes people who incorrectly regard Downed players as out of the battle.

When one of the enemies go down, focus on stomping them instead of downing more enemies. Get people out of the fight before you move on to someone else.

EnRohbi.2187:

I don’t understand all these complaints.

In the time I’ve been in WvW, rallying is one of the biggest tools I use as a small group. It benefits the people who know how to use the mechanic and punishes people who incorrectly regard Downed players as out of the battle.

When one of the enemies go down, focus on stomping them instead of downing more enemies. Get people out of the fight before you move on to someone else.

It’s not that people don’t know how to use it. I certainly do. That doesn’t mean that it’s not bullkitten (those two things are hardly mutually exclusive). It favors large numbers and blob tatics (among other things). It’s stupid that you can rally off of a moa in WvW or some guy that you winged once with your auto attack (yes I’ve used these to live, but it’s still bullkitten).

Not only Rally, but the whole fact that you can revive in WvW makes it so any server no matter how much they lack on strategy, if they have numbers they will always win.

Its like 10 people could be able to kill 40 people in real life with strategy, however in this game it would be really difficult since they would just keep rallying or reviving each other.

Numbers pwns strategy most of the times, depending on how much that difference of numbers is of course. Which I dislike very much when I server have a huge somewhere in a distant continent population overnight take everything when you have 20 vs 100… what can you do? even if you have a great strategy, they would keep reviving each other until they get to where they want, just moving forward.

in the case of a 1v1v1, i found the trick is to pick the class you have an easier time fighting to allow to rally. additionally, dont stomp the more troublesome opponent, just keep his 4 on cd. the more time you have to let your cooldowns reset, the bigger the advantage you have. the 2nd guy is gonna come up at 50% hp (or less…). you can aim to be at 80-100% hp. if you cant win THAT fight…

i walked in on a 1v1 hod v nsp (not at the windmill = fair game) this week too, and came out with 2 kills.

I’ve literally watch 20 ppl rally off 1 person

Certain classes have hugely better downed states than others in WvW, (theives for example), and the rally mechanic is abused frequently by people running into mobs and hitting them when they are losing as one mob will probably die and boom…It’s terrible, one of the silliest things I’ve seen in a supposedly PvP game.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Israel.7056:

I think they should’ve stuck with dedicated healers.

So true.

Let’s not say crazy things. Standin around in Lion’s Arch asking for healers before headin to WvW isn’t what I want.

In large battles, mobs aren’t a factor. They will be dead in 2 seconds with all the AOE. The problem is your side is dying and rallying the other side. You can’t blame that on rallying. The better servers understand this and equip/trait to be more defensive. Most of the upper tier guilds not only rally from killing they heal massive for amounts from killing making them almost invulnerable to pugs.

The main problem in small battles is someone on your side is trying to finish with AOE attacks while a mob is around. Again, it isn’t the problem of rallying, it is the lack of discipline, knowledge and/or situational awareness. Other times, people need take into account what class they just downed. Some will require you to use stability if you plan on finishing them in a timely manner.

As a player that plays solo, I have observed both sides. Sometimes I am with a pug and sometimes I am tagging along with a premade. I find rallying is not a problem for skilled groups or players. A skilled group will never lose because they can’t finish downed people. In fact, it is one more tool in their arsenal that separates them from the pugs. I see it all the time with skilled groups. They will literally beat a much larger group of players because the pug side doesn’t know how to finish and often lets a player die. Skilled side gets downed 2-3 times but never dies. Class has very little to do with it. The pug side still won’t use the same skills to their full advantage while the skilled side will. I have seen thieves rally each other non-stop against some pugs. Then I seen the same thieves get totally owned but another group that knows how to deal with them.

The biggest problem with it that I have personally encountered is in a small group fight. Several times I have downed someone and because I was in melee range I pretty much immediately pressed “F” to stomp. In the time it took for my char to do the stomp animation one of the downed player’s teammates ran up and rezzed him. Either the stomp animation needs to take less time, or it needs to take more time to rez a downed player. imo

What’s worse is low levels are basically a free rally for the enemy team.

You should only be able to rally off of someone who is lvl 70+

Getting to the point where i just tell my own team to kitten off from following our small man. Get in fight drop targets, the herpakitten following us dies, 3 or 4 targets get up.

They really need to get rid of the entire mechanic. Remove the skills. A player is ‘downed’ for 10 seconds. If they’re ressed, good. If they die, anyone who can rally off them gets 15% of their bar back to increase the time they have to be ressed.

It’s a great PvE mechanic but in WvW it really has no place.

-Increase damage-dealth treshold significantly before a target becomes a valid Rally-on-Kill.

-Limit how many players can rally from the same target.

-(WvW) You cannot rally on a kill made by someone from a rival server.

-You cannot rally on kill while someone is visibly casting the Finishing move/Stomp. Only direct intervention from allies (skills that cause rally) can rally you while someone is casting a Stomp.

-(WvW) Scale down rally speed from multiple allies working on the same downed player.

-(WvW)Defeated players have their “resurection” bar deteriorate shortly after allies stopped reviving that player. (To prevent the whole "run in/stealth in, rez a little, run away rince and repeat untill dead is alive abuse)

I agree on a limit that 1 dead person can rally only 5 orso

We as a small group who run with 15 can easily down 20 in a blob of 40+ at the first inc. Nothin more annoying then that 1 underleveld pug who dies and rallys all 20 and therefore ruins your inc….

lol I was in a 3 way fight just like you said a few times. Once you down them both you have to pick the stronger of the 2 to stomp. Or stomp one, run away recharge and do 1 v 1 vs the other guy.

I think that rally should be “nerfed”. To be honest I don’t agree with its mechanics at all, but I think that to make sense it should work at a 1:1 ratio. One dead person can rally one downed person, not an entire zerg, not even 5 people. The entire “rally system” is broken because it is enough for one troll/spy to get into a fight at the right time, and he can resurrect several enemies at the same time.

Epic.3950:

Why not remove rallying off killing someone in WVW to at least SORT OF make zerging less forgiving.

Agreed.

There is too much invested in the whole downed-state thing to expect the devs to eliminate it completely, but this would be a simple change.

I don’t oppose it in principle, but the zerg-orientation of this game has gotten out of hand. It might be different if the engine could handle 150 people fighting in the same place, but it can’t. The resultant lag is a fun-killer. This change in conjunction with a few others I could mention, should help encourage smaller group success.

there is a limit how many can res ppl unless this new patch changes it / or it’s not the

same with rally

it’s around 4 , i think

personally i have no problem with it. you can throw them some aoe to get them in

combat to slow them down or poison blablabla.

or u know …… the famous one

Thief stealth …

I like this mechanic although it’s usually useless when i need it and rarely get to rally. Is it so much to simply finish someone off? I can’t tell what you all are thinking….example.

Is it because you think you should be able to shoot someone at range and not have to run into melee range for increased risk?
^ I suspect this is the real reason but I’m not too sure.

Wastrelz.8235:

Epic.3950:

Why not remove rallying off killing someone in WVW to at least SORT OF make zerging less forgiving.

Agreed.

There is too much invested in the whole downed-state thing to expect the devs to eliminate it completely, but this would be a simple change.

You know, there was so much time and effort invested into the Concord project. It still sucked and had to be cancelled eventually. The stubbornism of the deveplovers is hurting the game.

I put a well on downed people. They then become dead people. No problem here. :P

Sanlucifer.1742:

Not only Rally, but the whole fact that you can revive in WvW makes it so any server no matter how much they lack on strategy, if they have numbers they will always win.

Its like 10 people could be able to kill 40 people in real life with strategy, however in this game it would be really difficult since they would just keep rallying or reviving each other.

Numbers pwns strategy most of the times, depending on how much that difference of numbers is of course. Which I dislike very much when I server have a huge somewhere in a distant continent population overnight take everything when you have 20 vs 100… what can you do? even if you have a great strategy, they would keep reviving each other until they get to where they want, just moving forward.

Agreed. Since the revive bar doesn’t decrease over time it is literally impossible to stop people from resing if there’s more of them than you because they just keep trying until they’re successful, which eventually they are. Not a fun mechanic.

I don’t think it’s a problem for them.

I think arena net firmly believes that rally makes perfect sense and that it is an ingenious mechanic that enhances the gaming experience. I would love to hear them talk about this mechanic and why they think it’s cool.

Only Blizzard digs deep into game play systems and design philosophies in blogs.

Epic.3950:

So you got one guy from NSP and one guy from FC. you just downed them both in a 3 way fight but what do you do? as soon as you stomp one, the other rallies, if you stomp the other guy the other guy rallies. good luck killing them both at the exact same time.

Just hang out nearby and let them fight it out in downed state trying to revive off each other, while you heal and your cooldowns refresh.

One will kill the other and revive with 50% health, then you finish him off immediately.

I actually like downed state for reasons like this – it adds an extra element of complexity and tactical dilemna to even small scale battles.

I like the rally system. It requiers to get other tactics. Like the melee train that has to go back for getting the downed dead or the ranged focussing the downed. The only problem i encounter is against large zergs and blobs but that is not the fault of rally. Anet should make it that running with 50+ is less rewarding than in smaller numbers.
PS: most of the time i am running with a wvw guild, 10 – 30 people

Just walk away from fight when the 3 of you are fighting, when one kills the other, kill the one that is alive. Victory is yours.

I disagree. I find it an interesting mechanism that, for once in this game, allows for a diversified role.

I play a full zerker longbow ranger with range of 1500 and my main goal is to finish as quickly and swiftly as possible downed people so that guys of our team can get back up. In zerg wars you will always have multiple downed people, especially if you have an organized group vs a large group.

I think when im telling my own server players to kitten off and not hang around our small man because of a mechanic theres a problem with it.

The problem stems from multiple rallies off 1 stomp and the difficulty for smaller groups to get stomps off, you have your group all in vent, co-ordinating combos and targets, keeping heals and buffs up. Some newby tags along, hes not in vent he cant hear our push, withdraw, collapse this target, hes not in my group i cant see his life/buffs/conditions.

We are doing well have 3-4 people down and bam they rally as noobcake has got himself killed. How about i save the hassle and just tell him to kitten off to begin with, no-one sees a problem with this?

And thats just the beginning of the problems with it, run into mobs and get free rezzes, it’s like thief strategy 101.

Sure it adds another dimension to the combat, one that favours numbers.

The downed state is fine, although some classes get shafted on downed abilities Guardian and Engi are laughable, Mesmer and Thief are pretty good but thats for another discussion. It’s the rally mechanic thats the big issue here, if its too hard to fix apply some serious penalties after you rally, not hey im up with 100% of my DPS full movement capacity and all my kitten off cooldown …. some serious debuffs for 20 seconds to take them out of the combat(50% health, 75%dmg reduction, 25%snare, 75% rez reduction) or all their slot skills and weapon abilities are on cooldown for 20 seconds, im sure a dev can think of something. They can return to the battle once the debuff drops

If they limit the number of enemies AoE can hit (which makes no sense anyhow) they should limit the number that can rally off a dead target to only 3, and make it so you can only rally once every 60 seconds.

One fight the other night I rallied no less than 8 times during a fight over SMC. That was not fair for the enemies nor was it fair to us when the same thing was happening on the other side.

I’ll be the first to admit that it DOES reward skill and discipline. If you make sure to target downed foes ultra quick you can do a lot for your side.

However, how many times have you lost a pitched fight because “Zachary Zerkergear” dives into the aoe to get insta-crushed and you lose a keep over it?

Yet I felt robbed, just last weekend when my guild was trashing a weaker group and some upleveled ele (not in our guild) just ran in and died. They all rallied after our skills were on cooldown and we got wiped.
It’s not fun to die because one person in a group of 50+ doesn’t listen or care to learn about the game format.

Chris.3290:

If they limit the number of enemies AoE can hit (which makes no sense anyhow) they should limit the number that can rally off a dead target to only 3, and make it so you can only rally once every 60 seconds.

I think the limit is more of a technical issue for AoE rather than something they meant to do from a combat mechanics standpoint.

Chris.3290:

I’ll be the first to admit that it DOES reward skill and discipline. If you make sure to target downed foes ultra quick you can do a lot for your side.

I have no problem with the downed state, just the rally mechanics and that it certainly does favour larger numbers, person goes down, 3 people rush in to rez and hes up in a second or they drop enough AoE on him(because they have a lot more people than you do) that anyone trying to get a stomp off gets crushed. A small man doesnt have the numbers to drop that sort of AoE if 1 of our players goes down to protect him. But the larger group certainly does, so ultimately it’s just going back to the larger numbers favouritism.

However, how many times have you lost a pitched fight because “Zachary Zerkergear” dives into the aoe to get insta-crushed and you lose a keep over it?

So true, and the reason why a lot of the times when roaming small man i dont want other players from my own server around.

Chris.3290:

Yet I felt robbed, just last weekend when my guild was trashing a weaker group and some upleveled ele (not in our guild) just ran in and died. They all rallied after our skills were on cooldown and we got wiped.
It’s not fun to die because one person in a group of 50+ doesn’t listen or care to learn about the game format.

We are looking at the game from different scales i think, im talking 3-5man maximum but the principle is still the same with the rally mechanic as it is. As for the upleveled ele, this happens all the time and will keep happening until you make a stand and just tell them to kitten off.

Or they fix the rally mechanic, either by applying a rez sickness buff with some serious drawbacks to take people out of the fight for a short period of time(20secs or so, long enough to make a hasty retreat, or recuperate at the back of the fight and re-engage when the debuff drops).

Jinks.2057:

I’ve literally watch 20 ppl rally off 1 person

kittening rallybots! That’s how it goes wrong

Yessssssssssss it is a horrible idea within a pvp settings. On pve it is perfectly fine but rallying in spvp/wvw does not fit well. If only this feature is removed both zerging and solo roaming will be a lot more fun.

I like the idea of the downed state but it has its faults.

They should kill two birds with one stone and implement a new weapon that enables the weilder to rally and rez. Making him into a medic. Then remove rally from everyone so that if you want to be a dedicated healer, you are a dedicated rallier.
You would still be able to rally yourself when downed, if people leave you alone for ~1 minute, you deserve to be back in the fight.

Makes it harder to rally people and still keeps the spirit of the downed state. It also wouldn’t create “Group looking for healer” because any class can swap the rally weapon out of combat and become the dedicated healer when needed.

Well you do have a point OP, if small groups are to be encouraged, something drastically needs to change in regards to rallying. My preference, removed downed state completely as I feel it has no place in WvW. The rankings would be completely shook up if they did this.

With that said, I don’t see them removing downed state or rallying, but there are things I think they could do to make it so it’s not so abused:

- Stick a debuff on those who’ve rallied or been revived that gives a 75% reduction in all stats for 1 min and only revives with 25% hp. Reduce all healing effects by 75%.
- Give the person who caused the down increased stomp speed and stability