Guild Wars 2

actually if Anet decide to revert the changes to lingering light and seeds of light the druid could have a place in a zerg as an insta healing and zerg sustain.

However right now the ranger\druid lacks damage, not only aoe, but bexause our pets dont evade, dont break stuns and dont clear conditions they simply instadie up to the look of an enemy zerg.

So it lacks damage and support. And the druids lacks some form of sustained healing for the zerg. So yeah, there should be discrimination to the ranger because it is not a class designed for anything else than 1v1.

anduriell.6280:

So yeah, there should be discrimination to the ranger because it is not a class designed for anything else than 1v1.

I disagree with it being a 1v1 profession… Druid still pretty strong in small scale skirmishes as pets take reduced damage from AoE skills. Sure they will insta die when there are 40 people kittenting AoE all over, but you hardly see a pet die in a 5v5 for exemple unless the ranger is a complete idiot (common ocurrance, honestly) and isn’t using pet swap to take the best out of the two pets and related traits.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Honestly the biggest issue more than anything else is rangers lack damage in zerg fights because we have a damage tax imposed on us because our pets are supposed to make up a percentage of it. Our pets don’t cleave, don’t share in our buffs (they can get our boons if we sacrifice an entire traitline but they still won’t get boosted stats from ascended gear or food/utility), and a ton of our traits are tied into our pets which spend the majority of the time dead in zerg fights.

Let me rephrase this: You lack AoE damage for zergs – I think the pet is the lesser problem.

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Honestly the biggest issue more than anything else is rangers lack damage in zerg fights because we have a damage tax imposed on us because our pets are supposed to make up a percentage of it. Our pets don’t cleave, don’t share in our buffs (they can get our boons if we sacrifice an entire traitline but they still won’t get boosted stats from ascended gear or food/utility), and a ton of our traits are tied into our pets which spend the majority of the time dead in zerg fights.

Let me rephrase this: You lack AoE damage for zergs – I think the pet is the lesser problem.

The pet tax is the reason why rangers lack damage. Our weapons scale for kitten.

Jeknar.6184:

I disagree… Druid still pretty strong in small scale skirmishes as pets take reduced damage from AoE skills. Sure they will insta die when there are 40 people kittenting AoE all over, but you hardly see a pet die in a 5v5 for exemple unless the ranger is a complete idiot (common ocurrance, honestly) and isn’t using pet swap to take the best out of the two pets and related traits.

Reduced aoe dmg only applies to PvE. Pets take the full dmg in WvW. It is still possible to keep tanky pets alive in small scale fights, as long they don’t get focused, but in general there is little a ranger can do to protect the pets.

Jana.6831:

Let me rephrase this: You lack AoE damage for zergs – I think the pet is the lesser problem.

Even if ranger had more aoe options, it would be still less dmg output than other classes – because of the pets. Having the whole class mechanic rendered useless will always remain a problem for rangers in large scale combat.

Jim Hunter.6821:

The pet tax is the reason why rangers lack damage. Our weapons scale for kitten.

That isn’t the problem in a zerg fight though – it doesn’t matter how much damage you do – the problem is that most of your skills are single target skills.

ETA: Just arguing because you guys make it sound as if this were solved with adding MOAR damage of which ranger has got enough anyway. I guess it’s rather how the class is designed which makes them rather unusable for zergs – and that goes for the pet as well, but standing in 1600 range might not be ideal to see how many reflects are up – and with that you might kill your own guys.

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

The pet tax is the reason why rangers lack damage. Our weapons scale for kitten.

That isn’t the problem in a zerg fight though – it doesn’t matter how much damage you do – the problem is that most of your skills are single target skills.

ETA: Just arguing because you guys make it sound as if this were solved with adding MOAR damage of which ranger has got enough anyway. I guess it’s rather how the class is designed which makes them rather unusable for zergs – and that goes for the pet as well, but standing in 1600 range might not be ideal to see how many reflects are up – and with that you might kill your own guys.

I’m sorry but you’re wrong. You seem to be under the impression a ranger has to run a longbow, our melee weapons cleave and our staff isn’t blocked by all the projectile hate.
If our weapons scaled properly and our pets received aoe damage/cc reduction we could run frontline melee and bring some decent support to the group.
Dropping 10k+ mauls on 5 players every 5 seconds while providing heals, condi clear, group stun break, and cc would be enough that rangers wouldn’t be shunned from zergs.

Jim Hunter.6821:

You seem to be under the impression a ranger has to run a longbow, our melee weapons cleave and our staff isn’t blocked by all the projectile hate.

Gonna quote myself from the page 2 of this thread

Jeknar.6184:

Ranger is problably the profession with most bad players per capita (Some of them don’t even know they have a weapon other than Longbow)

Jeknar.6184:

Jim Hunter.6821:

You seem to be under the impression a ranger has to run a longbow, our melee weapons cleave and our staff isn’t blocked by all the projectile hate.

Gonna quote myself from the page 2 of this thread

Jeknar.6184:

Ranger is problably the profession with most bad players per capita (Some of them don’t even know they have a weapon other than Longbow)

I guess no one else realizes that either lol.

edit: Which is funny since so many people come to the ranger forums to cry about staff/GS roamers

Jim Hunter.6821:

I’m sorry but you’re wrong. You seem to be under the impression a ranger has to run a longbow, our melee weapons cleave and our staff isn’t blocked by all the projectile hate.
If our weapons scaled properly and our pets received aoe damage/cc reduction we could run frontline melee and bring some decent support to the group.
Dropping 10k+ mauls on 5 players every 5 seconds while providing heals, condi clear, group stun break, and cc would be enough that rangers wouldn’t be shunned from zergs.

Ranger was my first main, I have at least an idea how the class works, never tried staff though, but every other set. LB and SB are more or less single target – your melee weapons aren’t and you would have traps. I don’t get how weapons don’t scale properly because of your pet – don’t they scale just the same no matter whether or not your pet is alive or dead? If you run melee and have some friendly guards, you’d do enough damage, have your pet always near and that should work – right now without any further buffs.

ETA: And you answered “my noobish aproach to ranger” (“but we have more than LB!!!!”) yourself: most players are used to LB rangers, rangers themselves and everybody else – how should the commander know which weapon the ranger uses?
And LB and GS are both pretty foolproof. It’s a bit harder to pull the other weapons off (again: I don’ know about staff).

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

I’m sorry but you’re wrong. You seem to be under the impression a ranger has to run a longbow, our melee weapons cleave and our staff isn’t blocked by all the projectile hate.
If our weapons scaled properly and our pets received aoe damage/cc reduction we could run frontline melee and bring some decent support to the group.
Dropping 10k+ mauls on 5 players every 5 seconds while providing heals, condi clear, group stun break, and cc would be enough that rangers wouldn’t be shunned from zergs.

Ranger was my first main, I have at least an idea how the class works, never tried staff though, but every other set. LB and SB are more or less single target – your melee weapons aren’t and you would have traps. I don’t get how weapons don’t scale properly because of your pet – don’t they scale just the same no matter whether or not your pet is alive or dead? If you run melee and have some friendly guards, you’d do enough damage, have your pet always near and that should work – right now without any further buffs.

Rangers have lower power coefficients and base numbers on their power weapons to account for the pet. Even if we somehow miraculously keep them alive in a zerg fight we deal less damage because pets don’t cleave, they were never given the 10%ish more damage that everyone gets when they upgrade to ascended gear, they don’t receive the benefits of our food/utility buffs, they don’t even get boons like might unless we run nature magic.

So even if the pets live a skill like maul is doing half of the damage it should be because of the pet tax.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Rangers have lower power coefficients and base numbers on their power weapons to account for the pet. Even if we somehow miraculously keep them alive in a zerg fight we deal less damage because pets don’t cleave, they were never given the 10%ish more damage that everyone gets when they upgrade to ascended gear, they don’t receive the benefits of our food/utility buffs, they don’t even get boons like might unless we run nature magic.

So even if the pets live a skill like maul is doing half of the damage it should be because of the pet tax.

Yeah but it is not as if every weapon in this game does the same damage, regardless of the class – you yourself spoke of 10k mauls which is on the top range of damage people can dish out – even more so on 5 players at once. If it really were 20k otherwise then the devs should have a look at it.
And back in the day I was always glad when my pet was in the melee group as that was where it survived the longest – but that was PvE, granted.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

I’m sorry but you’re wrong. You seem to be under the impression a ranger has to run a longbow, our melee weapons cleave and our staff isn’t blocked by all the projectile hate.
If our weapons scaled properly and our pets received aoe damage/cc reduction we could run frontline melee and bring some decent support to the group.
Dropping 10k+ mauls on 5 players every 5 seconds while providing heals, condi clear, group stun break, and cc would be enough that rangers wouldn’t be shunned from zergs.

Ranger was my first main, I have at least an idea how the class works, never tried staff though, but every other set. LB and SB are more or less single target – your melee weapons aren’t and you would have traps. I don’t get how weapons don’t scale properly because of your pet – don’t they scale just the same no matter whether or not your pet is alive or dead? If you run melee and have some friendly guards, you’d do enough damage, have your pet always near and that should work – right now without any further buffs.

Rangers have lower power coefficients and base numbers on their power weapons to account for the pet. Even if we somehow miraculously keep them alive in a zerg fight we deal less damage because pets don’t cleave, they were never given the 10%ish more damage that everyone gets when they upgrade to ascended gear, they don’t receive the benefits of our food/utility buffs, they don’t even get boons like might unless we run nature magic.

So even if the pets live a skill like maul is doing half of the damage it should be because of the pet tax.

Mesmer phantasm problems too, at least they only tax you 30% instead of 50% like they do mesmers.

Jana.6831:

ETA: And you answered “my noobish aproach to ranger” (“but we have more than LB!!!!”) yourself: most players are used to LB rangers, rangers themselves and everybody else – how should the commander know which weapon the ranger uses?
And LB and GS are both pretty foolproof. It’s a bit harder to pull the other weapons off (again: I don’ know about staff).

Nothing really harder about the other weapons. Main hand sword could work in a zerg, it would allow you to bring off hand axe which would work fairly well or warhorn for an extra blast finisher. It’s main problem is although they fixed the weapon so you can use it without leapfrogging through the zerg, they decided to nerf it’s dps at the same time and they still haven’t added cleave to the second chain in the auto attack.

Main hand axe could have been decent if it properly scaled with power until the most recent set of ranger nerfs where they removed a bounce from the auto. Before that it would have been decent tagging/might stacking weapon with a high aoe chill uptime (when traited).

Shortbow is just worthless. Nerfed into the ground back in the day to make longbow more appealing. It’s arguably the worst weapon in the game.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Nothing really harder about the other weapons. Main hand sword could work in a zerg, it would allow you to bring off hand axe which would work fairly well or warhorn for an extra blast finisher. It’s main problem is although they fixed the weapon so you can use it without leapfrogging through the zerg, they decided to nerf it’s dps at the same time and they still haven’t added cleave to the second chain in the auto attack.

Main hand axe could have been decent if it properly scaled with power until the most recent set of ranger nerfs where they removed a bounce from the auto. Before that it would have been decent tagging/might stacking weapon with a high aoe chill uptime (when traited).

Shortbow is just worthless. Nerfed into the ground back in the day to make longbow more appealing. It’s arguably the worst weapon in the game.

Alright, I guess our constructive discussion about rangers in a zerg is over
I hope you guys got my point.

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Rangers have lower power coefficients and base numbers on their power weapons to account for the pet. Even if we somehow miraculously keep them alive in a zerg fight we deal less damage because pets don’t cleave, they were never given the 10%ish more damage that everyone gets when they upgrade to ascended gear, they don’t receive the benefits of our food/utility buffs, they don’t even get boons like might unless we run nature magic.

So even if the pets live a skill like maul is doing half of the damage it should be because of the pet tax.

Yeah but it is not as if every weapon in this game does the same damage, regardless of the class – you yourself spoke of 10k mauls which is on the top range of damage people can dish out – even more so on 5 players at once. If it really were 20k otherwise then the devs should have a look at it.
And back in the day I was always glad when my pet was in the melee group as that was where it survived the longest – but that was PvE, granted.

I’m saying it should be doing 10k+ when you are heavily invested in power and you are might stacked. Right now you’d be lucky to do 4k in a zerg fight. Rangers have to run gimmicky builds that require popping several cooldowns to deal decent damage with maul. Stuff like activating SotW, SotH, and having a remorseless opening strike ready, and that’s if your opponents can’t dodge the biggest telegraph in the game….. I mean a 3/4 second attack with a big kitten bear animation…. thanks anet.

Jim Hunter.6821:

I’m saying it should be doing 10k+ when you are heavily invested in power and you are might stacked. Right now you’d be lucky to do 4k in a zerg fight. Rangers have to run gimmicky builds that require popping several cooldowns to deal decent damage with maul. Stuff like activating SotW, SotH, and having a remorseless opening strike ready, and that’s if your opponents can’t dodge the biggest telegraph in the game….. I mean a 3/4 second attack with a big kitten bear animation…. thanks anet.

So your complaint is that you have to go tanky to survive in a zerg and then do less damage?
I’m really afraid of the things to come: rangers/druids are already unkillable in wvw it might even become worse – because rangers always feel they don’t do enough damage!!!!

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

I’m saying it should be doing 10k+ when you are heavily invested in power and you are might stacked. Right now you’d be lucky to do 4k in a zerg fight. Rangers have to run gimmicky builds that require popping several cooldowns to deal decent damage with maul. Stuff like activating SotW, SotH, and having a remorseless opening strike ready, and that’s if your opponents can’t dodge the biggest telegraph in the game….. I mean a 3/4 second attack with a big kitten bear animation…. thanks anet.

So your complaint is that you have to go tanky to survive in a zerg and then do less damage?
I’m really afraid of the things to come: rangers/druids are already unkillable in wvw it might even become worse – because rangers always feel they don’t do enough damage!!!!

Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit is it.
Rangers have lower power coefficients and base numbers on their power weapons to account for the pet.

It has nothing to do with going tanky, even if we go full glass our damage is low. It’s the same reason rangers were booted from dungeons for the first few years of the game. The only weapon we have that scales decently with power is the longbow which is worthless in zergs post HoT.

You yourself said that you have 10k mauls and in fact I’ve been hit with 12k mauls (but that was a while ago).

Jim Hunter.6821:

Dropping 10k+ mauls on 5 players every 5 seconds while providing heals, condi clear, group stun break, and cc would be enough that rangers wouldn’t be shunned from zergs.

There you go – remembering isn’t one of your strong skills, eh?!

ETA: Just leave it at that, pls. I like you but I don’t get why you become so narrow minded when it comes to ranger – and the next post might be a post in which you explode yet again and I won’t take that.

ETA²: Ok, I get this was a misunderstanding: I have already been hit by more than 10k mauls, so to me this is already reality. You say though that this “could be” reality. I would have to run ranger to see for myself – but I’m afraid I don’t want to.

Jana.6831:

You yourself said that you have 10k mauls and in fact I’ve been hit with 12k mauls (but that was a while ago).

Jim Hunter.6821:

Dropping 10k+ mauls on 5 players every 5 seconds while providing heals, condi clear, group stun break, and cc would be enough that rangers wouldn’t be shunned from zergs.

There you go – remembering isn’t one of your strong skills, eh?!

ETA: Just leave it at that, pls. I like you but I don’t get why you become so narrow minded when it comes to ranger – and the next post might be a post in which you explode yet again and I won’t take that.

Go back and read that post. I was saying we could be dropping 10k+ mauls on people in a zerg fight if our weapons scaled properly.

And if I remember right you main a thief don’t you? If someone hit you with a 12k maul they were running a remorseless build and you were probably pretty kitten close to full glass am I right? Rangers can self buff for a burst attack using traits, shouts, signets, etc. but that is for 1 big hit 30-60 seconds. That’s not nearly the same as having decent damage on the weapon skill itself.

And if you think that it would be unfair just remind yourself how much damage things like rev CoR, warrior rush, thief vault, etc. all do, and remember how ridiculously telegraphed and slow maul is.

Jana.6831:

You yourself said that you have 10k mauls and in fact I’ve been hit with 12k mauls (but that was a while ago).

Jim Hunter.6821:

Dropping 10k+ mauls on 5 players every 5 seconds while providing heals, condi clear, group stun break, and cc would be enough that rangers wouldn’t be shunned from zergs.

There you go – remembering isn’t one of your strong skills, eh?!

Seems you have a problem understanding how he got it.

You start with Opening Strike then you add 100% crit chance to it, then buff yourself with % modifiers via Signet of the Wild and add in Signet of the Hunt.

So that means when you use maul and plug that into a damage formula like this

2700*1.6*1047.5/2029 = 2230

Then we multiply by damage mods:

2230*2.20*1.25*1.50 = 9198

This is assuming no % damage food, runes, sigils etc and required 2 utility skills to hit for nearly 10k.

Edit: Without the signets you’re looking at 4.9k on crit and 2.2k for non crits, this is quite a bit behind other classes for high damage skills at a 1.6 coefficient. To put this in perspective nearly every scrapper hammer skill that isn’t an auto attack does more damage than this.

Jeknar.6184:

Ranger is problably the profession with most bad players per capita (Some of them don’t even know they have a weapon other than Longbow)

Most WvW players can’t even dodge pin down, most WvW players regardless of profession are just varying degrees of bad, and that’s in a game where the playerbase is already way below average as a whole…

The “could” was missing, and since I already experienced the numbers – it was easy to misunderstand how it was meant.
Anyway: The 10k+ maul setup is with LB vulnerability and some other stuff, yes but that doesn’t mean that maul would do more damage if it weren’t for the pet, it means that you can add extra burst to it. If the base damage were increased I truly would be hit with 20k mauls. Even 4-5k on 5 enemies every 5-6 seconds isn’t too bad and I guess most people in a zerg don’t do more than that. Adding more and more damage to a class that is already borderline OP makes no sense.
And please don’t forget that the pet constantly does damage as well (@apharma) that’s why it’s counted towards the rangers DPS.
ETA: And if the pet can’t survive in a zerg, then it’s the class design but not because ranger lacks damage. And that was my initial point.

Jana.6831:

Even 4-5k on 5 enemies every 5-6 seconds isn’t too bad and I guess most people in a zerg don’t do more than that.

Maybe that used to be the case but have you tried running a hammer rev?

Jim Hunter.6821:

Jana.6831:

Even 4-5k on 5 enemies every 5-6 seconds isn’t too bad and I guess most people in a zerg don’t do more than that.

Maybe that used to be the case but have you tried running a hammer rev?

“They are OP I WANT TO BE OP AS WELL” – no argument, is it?

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Jana.6831:

Even 4-5k on 5 enemies every 5-6 seconds isn’t too bad and I guess most people in a zerg don’t do more than that.

Maybe that used to be the case but have you tried running a hammer rev?

“They are OP I WANT TO BE OP AS WELL” – no argument, is it?

Except it’s not just them, the damage levels are simply higher now.

Jana.6831:

Even 4-5k on 5 enemies every 5-6 seconds isn’t too bad and I guess most people in a zerg don’t do more than that.

4-5k mauls (without opening strike/MoC) means glass vs glass, which isn’t very realistic in zerg fights (especially not in the frontline). 2-3k crits would be closer to reality.

I’ll try again: Class balance in GW2 is kitten for now more than a year – it became absolutely worse with the elites.
The way ranger is designed makes them rather unsuitable for zergs. Other classes have the same fate, it’s not just rangers. Ranger is a class that makes people lazy (I know because I’ve been one “Dodge? why would I dodge? See I have a trait that lets me do more damage if I don’t!!”
Ranger doesn’t lack damage but utility for especially zerg fights. And well pets could be redesigned to probably dodge – but that might kitten up small scale/roaming.
I guess that’s one of the things you just have to live with, just like I live with being a frontline thief who’s always grouped up with all other thieves who are faaar away capping camps = no boons for me. Doesn’t matter.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Jana.6831:

Even 4-5k on 5 enemies every 5-6 seconds isn’t too bad and I guess most people in a zerg don’t do more than that.

4-5k mauls (without extra buffs) means glass vs glass, which isn’t very realistic in zerg fights (especially not in the frontline). 2-3k crits would be closer to reality.

Go soldier’s with rune of the pack.

Jana.6831:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Jana.6831:

Even 4-5k on 5 enemies every 5-6 seconds isn’t too bad and I guess most people in a zerg don’t do more than that.

4-5k mauls (without extra buffs) means glass vs glass, which isn’t very realistic in zerg fights (especially not in the frontline). 2-3k crits would be closer to reality.

Go soldier’s with rune of the pack.

To enjoy 1-2k hits? I prefer a zerk/valk/cav setup, which has better dmg than full soldier and without OS maul rarely hits for more than 3k unless the target is glass and has some vuln stacks on it.
You are right that ranger isn’t designed for zerg fights – and the pet mechanic + the resulting low weapon dmg is one reason. Doesn’t mean, ranger needs more dmg – it would be unbalanced for 1vs1/small scale fights of course, where at least a few pets can be usefull.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Jana.6831:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Jana.6831:

Even 4-5k on 5 enemies every 5-6 seconds isn’t too bad and I guess most people in a zerg don’t do more than that.

4-5k mauls (without extra buffs) means glass vs glass, which isn’t very realistic in zerg fights (especially not in the frontline). 2-3k crits would be closer to reality.

Go soldier’s with rune of the pack.

To enjoy 1-2k hits? I prefer a zerk/valk/cav setup, which has better dmg than full soldier and without OS maul rarely hits for more than 3k unless the target is glass and has some vuln stacks on it.
You are right that ranger isn’t designed for zerg fights – and the pet mechanic + the resulting low weapon dmg is one reason. Doesn’t mean, ranger needs more dmg – it would be unbalanced for 1vs1/small scale fights of course, where at least a few pets can be usefull.

You get the base power with soldiers. No ferocity, granted – you’d get that with valk – but you were the one crying that you would have to go full glass – soldier’s isn’t that much worse – I have 3 full zerker thieves (2 with runes of the pack, one with scholar), 2 valk/zerker (pack and hoelbrak) and 1 soldier’s/zerker (with rune of the pack) – they’re not that far apart. My main is valk/zerker with rune of the pack and it’s working fine – I can only dream about 2k+hits in a zerg (with some exceptions). Maybe thief should get more damage.

ETA: My thieves all have zerker trinkets. My ranger however is pretty much full soldier’s as far as I remember – and even he crits.

zinkz.7045:

Jeknar.6184:

Ranger is problably the profession with most bad players per capita (Some of them don’t even know they have a weapon other than Longbow)

Most WvW players can’t even dodge pin down, most WvW players regardless of profession are just varying degrees of bad, and that’s in a game where the playerbase is already way below average as a whole…

In my time with the game and WvW, I’ve created a mental chart on the skill level of players I encounter either while roaming or brawling with in open field zerg fights.

Brand new, Level 1
Entirely new to the game or possibly with a disability of some sort (and I don’t mean that in an insensitive way), these players are usually keyboard turning, standing in place, not dodging and probably know nothing about their class. They don’t even hurt when ignored because they’re probably still in green gear.

Average PUG, Level 2
Familiar with WvW zerging, rarely does anything else. Probably primarily a PvE player or maybe just doesn’t enjoy doing things alone. Likely using a build they found on Metabattle or some weird personal variant. Can do some damage if you ignore them for too long, best to kill them ASAP as they’re not likely to know how to defend themselves.

Average roamer, Level 3
I would put myself in this category. Is familiar with combat and has an advanced understanding of their profession. Knows what things to look out for and what things to bring with them. Is either using a faceroll carry build to ensure the highest likely hood of a win or a personal build built to survive various different encounters. They’ll hurt a lot and can be a major pain if left unchecked.

Above average roamer, Level 4
Advanced understanding of their profession/build and many other professions. Is capable of 1vX and winning regularly but has a tendency to get over confident, pushing their luck and giving in to the squirrel chase. Approach with caution, be prepared for a potentially lengthy fight or a very, very short one. Usually a good candidate to /bow to for a duel.

High skill roamer, Level 5
Knows their profession inside and out, upside and down. Knows exactly how other professions/builds work and exactly what to look out for. Will 1vX and win regularly and won’t push their luck if they think things are getting hairy. Depending on their profession of choice, can sometimes kite small zergs around. Players of this skill are rare and are often only interested in having fun. They’ll leave you alone if they see that you don’t want to fight and they’ll usually cause a bit of rage in /map from players who are getting rekt by them. Either approach with extreme caution or sit back and watch the show (which I prefer to do).

Jana.6831:

You get the base power with soldiers. No ferocity, granted – you’d get that with valk – but you were the one crying that you would have to go full glass – soldier’s isn’t that much worse – I have 3 full zerker thieves (2 with runes of the pack, one with scholar), 2 valk/zerker (pack and hoelbrak) and 1 soldier’s/zerker (with rune of the pack) – they’re not that far apart. My main is valk/zerker with rune of the pack and it’s working fine – I can only dream about 2k+hits in a zerg (with some exceptions). Maybe thief should get more damage.

ETA: My thieves all have zerker trinkets. My ranger however is pretty much full soldier’s as far as I remember – and even he crits.

Your dps must be a l2p issue.
Dps from thieves should nerfed or their mobility + stealth reduced and that’s a fact. Actually i think all classes should have their damage balanced all across the board.

Dps comparison. Pets don’t increase much the dps because they can’t hit moving targets, like 1k or so, there is another testing chart around.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4v76gq/qt_updated_guides_and_dps_benchmarks_for_all/

after this the facts:
Ranger is has the weakest dps in game.
Ranger lacks any form of effective AoE
When they nerfed the mobility and procs from the spirits ranger lost the support tp the team
When they nerfed the druid it lost it’s ability to reliably heal the team

So it is understandable the rangers are not wanted in wvw squads and druids aren’t well received.

I would ask to Anet to actually define the rol of the druid and the ranger in the game, because right now it’s just a mess.

• if the ranger is about positioning weapons should reward greatly that handicap. And all their skills should be designed to allow that movement or to get advantage of that strategical attack.

• If the druid is all about support and heal it should excel in that. Right now is kinda meh more than once my commanders asked for heals but my AF was depleted.

• If we are forced to have the pet system, make that system to at least work. Right now it is impossible to keep any pet alive in any group fight greater than 3. Condi span, Cc and any short of attack and they are dead. And pet dead makes a great nerf in our sustain and attack as many skills and traits are linked to them.

PvE dps is meanigless for WvW/PvP and those tests compare PvE meta builds and not max dps builds (which isn’t the same in case of ranger).

UmbraNoctis.1907:

PvE dps is meanigless for WvW/PvP and those tests compare PvE meta builds and not max dps builds (which isn’t the same in case of ranger).

it is a Representative idea of about max dps any class can pump. which in this case leave the ranger at the bottom. Actually that compare they actual max dps for ranger as other dude did a full chart with all possible builds and average dps of the best damage build was about 3k higher than what is shown,

In any case not that matters as the average hp pool is around 18k so more damage than that is not of any consequence. But gives you an idea of the damage pressure they can apply, a ranger can’t compete in pure dps to win against any other class.

Off-topic, but:

Selfish condi ranger is capable of doing about 30k dps fully buffed which is significantly higher than the dps of the support oriented meta build shown in the test (and probably not worst dps of all classes). Still completely irrelevant for this discussion.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Honestly the biggest issue more than anything else is rangers lack damage in zerg fights because we have a damage tax imposed on us because our pets are supposed to make up a percentage of it. Our pets don’t cleave, don’t share in our buffs (they can get our boons if we sacrifice an entire traitline but they still won’t get boosted stats from ascended gear or food/utility), and a ton of our traits are tied into our pets which spend the majority of the time dead in zerg fights.

Yep, that was one of my points…

“They may be right if they are complaining about numbers because ranger is not a zerging class. The more numbers there are, the less effective ranger becomes. Game has always been like that.”

apharma.3741:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

I’m sorry but you’re wrong. You seem to be under the impression a ranger has to run a longbow, our melee weapons cleave and our staff isn’t blocked by all the projectile hate.
If our weapons scaled properly and our pets received aoe damage/cc reduction we could run frontline melee and bring some decent support to the group.
Dropping 10k+ mauls on 5 players every 5 seconds while providing heals, condi clear, group stun break, and cc would be enough that rangers wouldn’t be shunned from zergs.

Ranger was my first main, I have at least an idea how the class works, never tried staff though, but every other set. LB and SB are more or less single target – your melee weapons aren’t and you would have traps. I don’t get how weapons don’t scale properly because of your pet – don’t they scale just the same no matter whether or not your pet is alive or dead? If you run melee and have some friendly guards, you’d do enough damage, have your pet always near and that should work – right now without any further buffs.

Rangers have lower power coefficients and base numbers on their power weapons to account for the pet. Even if we somehow miraculously keep them alive in a zerg fight we deal less damage because pets don’t cleave, they were never given the 10%ish more damage that everyone gets when they upgrade to ascended gear, they don’t receive the benefits of our food/utility buffs, they don’t even get boons like might unless we run nature magic.

So even if the pets live a skill like maul is doing half of the damage it should be because of the pet tax.

Mesmer phantasm problems too, at least they only tax you 30% instead of 50% like they do mesmers.

Mesmer is a group utility class in zergs. Always been like that for them too. Ranger doesn’t provide as much group utility.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Off-topic, but:

Selfish condi ranger is capable of doing about 30k dps fully buffed which is significantly higher than the dps of the support oriented meta build shown in the test (and probably not worst dps of all classes). Still completely irrelevant for this discussion.

Yeah condi damage is the same across all classes, there isn’t a pet tax on it like ranger power builds. But with resistance being 100% immunity condi damage isn’t an option.

Chaba.5410:

apharma.3741:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

I’m sorry but you’re wrong. You seem to be under the impression a ranger has to run a longbow, our melee weapons cleave and our staff isn’t blocked by all the projectile hate.
If our weapons scaled properly and our pets received aoe damage/cc reduction we could run frontline melee and bring some decent support to the group.
Dropping 10k+ mauls on 5 players every 5 seconds while providing heals, condi clear, group stun break, and cc would be enough that rangers wouldn’t be shunned from zergs.

Ranger was my first main, I have at least an idea how the class works, never tried staff though, but every other set. LB and SB are more or less single target – your melee weapons aren’t and you would have traps. I don’t get how weapons don’t scale properly because of your pet – don’t they scale just the same no matter whether or not your pet is alive or dead? If you run melee and have some friendly guards, you’d do enough damage, have your pet always near and that should work – right now without any further buffs.

Rangers have lower power coefficients and base numbers on their power weapons to account for the pet. Even if we somehow miraculously keep them alive in a zerg fight we deal less damage because pets don’t cleave, they were never given the 10%ish more damage that everyone gets when they upgrade to ascended gear, they don’t receive the benefits of our food/utility buffs, they don’t even get boons like might unless we run nature magic.

So even if the pets live a skill like maul is doing half of the damage it should be because of the pet tax.

Mesmer phantasm problems too, at least they only tax you 30% instead of 50% like they do mesmers.

Mesmer is a group utility class in zergs. Always been like that for them too. Ranger doesn’t provide as much group utility.

And that’s why you problably only want 1 or 2 mesmers at best on your group.

And yet I continue to run backline and pick off enemy cmndrs my cmndr tags. And my kill count is big most of the time. So I don’t provide the boonshare etc that other classes do. But I still kill a lot and of course that’s what we want too right? My build is my own hybrid thats better imo than condi or the other so called meta.

After all is said and done, my main cmndr knows how to make use of me and it translates into a lot of kills and fun.

Balthazzarr.1349:

And yet I continue to run backline and pick off enemy cmndrs my cmndr tags. And my kill count is big most of the time. So I don’t provide the boonshare etc that other classes do. But I still kill a lot and of course that’s what we want too right? My build is my own hybrid thats better imo than condi or the other so called meta.

After all is said and done, my main cmndr knows how to make use of me and it translates into a lot of kills and fun.

Good job?

Balthazzarr.1349:

And yet I continue to run backline and pick off enemy cmndrs my cmndr tags. And my kill count is big most of the time. So I don’t provide the boonshare etc that other classes do. But I still kill a lot and of course that’s what we want too right? My build is my own hybrid thats better imo than condi or the other so called meta.

After all is said and done, my main cmndr knows how to make use of me and it translates into a lot of kills and fun.

That says a lot more about the guilds you are fighting than it does about rangers being viable in a zerg.

Lol. Ok. Until you have been there, you really should reserve judgement :-)

Jim Hunter.6821:

Balthazzarr.1349:

And yet I continue to run backline and pick off enemy cmndrs my cmndr tags. And my kill count is big most of the time. So I don’t provide the boonshare etc that other classes do. But I still kill a lot and of course that’s what we want too right? My build is my own hybrid thats better imo than condi or the other so called meta.

After all is said and done, my main cmndr knows how to make use of me and it translates into a lot of kills and fun.

That says a lot more about the guilds you are fighting than it does about rangers being viable in a zerg.

Considering CD (OP server) is being farmed, I really don’t know what’s happening there.

Haaaa. I didn’t say we win all the fights. Ah well at the end of the day there’s only one important thing… having fun.. and that’s what I do !!!!

Balthazzarr.1349:

Haaaa. I didn’t say we win all the fights. Ah well at the end of the day there’s only one important thing… having fun.. and that’s what I do !!!!

Well, I don’t have fun losing my fights. But if you do, who I am to judge, ya?

If you’re not having fun regardless of the outcome that’s sad. But I won’t judge you either. Just so you know, I run my guard or rev as well. But frankly I spend more of my time in havoc than zergs. And live or die I have fun.

Chaba.5410:

apharma.3741:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

I’m sorry but you’re wrong. You seem to be under the impression a ranger has to run a longbow, our melee weapons cleave and our staff isn’t blocked by all the projectile hate.
If our weapons scaled properly and our pets received aoe damage/cc reduction we could run frontline melee and bring some decent support to the group.
Dropping 10k+ mauls on 5 players every 5 seconds while providing heals, condi clear, group stun break, and cc would be enough that rangers wouldn’t be shunned from zergs.

Ranger was my first main, I have at least an idea how the class works, never tried staff though, but every other set. LB and SB are more or less single target – your melee weapons aren’t and you would have traps. I don’t get how weapons don’t scale properly because of your pet – don’t they scale just the same no matter whether or not your pet is alive or dead? If you run melee and have some friendly guards, you’d do enough damage, have your pet always near and that should work – right now without any further buffs.

Rangers have lower power coefficients and base numbers on their power weapons to account for the pet. Even if we somehow miraculously keep them alive in a zerg fight we deal less damage because pets don’t cleave, they were never given the 10%ish more damage that everyone gets when they upgrade to ascended gear, they don’t receive the benefits of our food/utility buffs, they don’t even get boons like might unless we run nature magic.

So even if the pets live a skill like maul is doing half of the damage it should be because of the pet tax.

Mesmer phantasm problems too, at least they only tax you 30% instead of 50% like they do mesmers.

Mesmer is a group utility class in zergs. Always been like that for them too. Ranger doesn’t provide as much group utility.

We’re talking about damage distribution, utility has little to do with it as many other classes provide as much utility, you just don’t realise it because it’s been then norm for so long.

Guard utility is through the roof, they are and have always been the backbone of WvW large scale combat for the last 4 years. With them has always been elementalist and closely behind has been necro for it’s offensive utility in boon corruption/removal and AoE damage. We just never think of it because we’re so used to seeing it for nearly 4 years.

A mesmer does boonshare if you run that, portal or veil and then generally has poor options for getting lootbags. This ties to what I and others have said, classes with pet mechanics suffer from lower coefficients and do a lot less damage in zergs vs equivalent specs on other classes.

Heh whut? No other class provides veil, portal, and alacrity. You don’t bring a mesmer to a zerg for their damage, not since Confusion was nerfed ages ago. Ranger doesn’t have that kind of group utility to justify overlooking their pet issue.