Guild Wars 2

So I was thinking that the main reason people zerg is thakittens the only way to get lots of badges and loot. Soloing camps etc is fine, but not at all profitable for the time spent.

So…what if Anet were to implement the equivalent of the anti farming code, but made zerg size the restricting factor? Meaning the more people in an area, the less chance of a kill dropping badges/loot. Conversely, if there are just 2/3 people around, you’re just about guaranteed badge drops.

This should encourage smaller groups roaming around and lead to more tactical battles. It’ll also give people an incentive to come to WvW and engage in more skillful play rather than just mindlessly run with large numbers of people spamming AoEs and speed buffs.

Edit: Another alternative would be to do the opposite – grant a buff to soloers and 2/3 man groups. This buff would have say a 90% chance of a badge drop from another player plus a good chance of a rare. So instead of taking away from zerging, we’re giving more incentives for people to choose another play style.

So, basically getting punished for playing on an active server?

lordkrall.7241:

So, basically getting punished for playing on an active server?

I’m sure if people spread out there’ll be lots of space for everyone even on an active server. And we wouldn’t want to zerg anyway because of the lesser loot. Isn’t it?

Quit trying to push your playstyle on other people.

Considering how each map is littered with choke points, this is a terrible idea.

Neeho.3859:

Quit trying to push your playstyle on other people.

But I’m not pushing it on others. If my suggestion is implemented, then all playstyles will be equally valid and not just zerging. In fact, it seems that the status quo is pushing people into following a particular playstyle since zerging is the only way to get lots of loot in WvW.

By reducing loot for zerging, you are attempting to push people away from it to get equal rewards. All playstyles ARE CURRENTLY VALID. Solo, duo, 5-man, 10-man, zergs, whatever. It just may not be on your server. Come to a lower pop server, we have a bit of everything.

bhagwad.4281:

But I’m not pushing it on others. If my suggestion is implemented, then all playstyles will be equally valid and not just zerging. In fact, it seems that the status quo is pushing people into following a particular playstyle since zerging is the only way to get lots of loot in WvW.

No, if this is implemented zerging would NOT be “valid” since it would mean less loot and therefore people that zerged (quite usual for guilds to build smaller zergs and run around taking keeps, should we not be allowed to do so without being punished?) would be getting less stuff for the same “work”

No thanks.

It won’t change anything anyway. We’ll just zerg it up and steam roll you all so you don’t get any loot either.

To copy my response when you suggested this in my thread on adding objectives for smaller groups:

I feel like that would just encourage selfish play. Zerging up is the best way to succeed in WvW right now. While there should certainly be rewards for doing other things, people should be getting into small groups because there’s a tactical advantage there, not because they’ll get more loot. This sort of system would also cause roamers to actively discourage allies from helping them, since they’d get less loot.

It would be nice if there were repeatable achievement chests kinda like with the Zephyr games where you get a Loot bag every 15 runs. Run 5 yaks, get a loot bag, that sort of thing.

lordkrall.7241:

bhagwad.4281:

But I’m not pushing it on others. If my suggestion is implemented, then all playstyles will be equally valid and not just zerging. In fact, it seems that the status quo is pushing people into following a particular playstyle since zerging is the only way to get lots of loot in WvW.

No, if this is implemented zerging would NOT be “valid” since it would mean less loot and therefore people that zerged (quite usual for guilds to build smaller zergs and run around taking keeps, should we not be allowed to do so without being punished?) would be getting less stuff for the same “work”

But zergs also kill more people so it would even out no?

I think they need to get rid of shared loot and rewards completely in WvW.

Shared loot/rewards works in PvE because of mob scaling.

Opposing players/objectives do not scale at all, and thus, there shouldn’t be shared loot.

bhagwad.4281:

But zergs also kill more people so it would even out no?

Not necessarily.

Here is a suggestion, which wouldn’t be unfair to either style of play (zerg vs small scale or solo roaming):

1. When several players participate in killing an NPC and enemy invader, only one of them gets loot.
- the one who gets the loot is determined randomly (in order to participate in this lottery you must inflict at least certain amount of damage on that individual)
- thus if you do solo kill you are always guaranteed to get a drop. And if you roam in pairs you get loot bags and badges from roughly every second kill.
- if you make the kill with 30 people assisting you, your chances to get badges and loot are small. This is fair as 1 vs 30 situation really shouldn’t heavily reward the latter and would give less motivation for the huge population server spawn camping the outmanned side

2. Keep WXP, EXP and karma rewards as they are
- following the zerg, aka WXP/karma train, would still be the easiest and fastest way to obtain karma, WXP and exp
- players get rewards from WXP chests like they do now. So even the most unlucky zerg player is guaranteed to get badges and items from the chest.

The total level of rewards from kill can be adjusted so that the average player who sometimes follows a zerg, sometimes fights in a small group gets roughly same rewards as before. I also think the total level of WvWvW rewards should be close to pve. Currently doing world events is much more profitable and easier than WvWvW.

I am for increasing the total rewards from WvWvW. Note that in my suggestion anybody can go and kill a sentry or an enemy supply camp / tower / keep guard alone and then he/she is guaranteed to have to have loot. Killing one sentry alone isn’t that difficult.

wvw reward lower than pve.If Anet do this,more player will leave wvw.

Deniara Devious.3948:

1. When several players participate in killing an NPC and enemy invader, only one of them gets loot.

So basically remove one of the main selling points of the game?

Deniara Devious.3948:

1. When several players participate in killing an NPC and enemy invader, only one of them gets loot.

“GET AWAY FROM ME, YOU NOOB, YOU’RE STEALING MY LOOT.”

Not something two allies should be saying to each other.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Deniara Devious.3948:

1. When several players participate in killing an NPC and enemy invader, only one of them gets loot.

“GET AWAY FROM ME, YOU NOOB, YOU’RE STEALING MY LOOT.”

Not something two allies should be saying to each other.

I think this is rather extreme.

Already in pve when several players hit the same normal (non-boss/veteran) monster usually only one of them gets loot. So are you implying that pve is full of such cries as well? as not everybody gets loot from the same monster when several people are blasting it.

Deniara Devious.3948:

I think this is rather extreme.

Already in pve when several players hit the same normal (non-boss/veteran) monster usually only one of them gets loot. So are you implying that pve is full of such cries as well? as not everybody gets loot from the same monster when several people are blasting it.

Incorrect.
Everyone in PvE have a chance for loot (individually) when several people kill the same mob.

lordkrall.7241:

No, if this is implemented zerging would NOT be “valid” since it would mean less loot and therefore people that zerged (quite usual for guilds to build smaller zergs and run around taking keeps, should we not be allowed to do so without being punished?) would be getting less stuff for the same “work”

Awesome then. I don’t really see the problem there. Zerging is for baddies anyway isn’t it? Are you a zerg lover?

Fjandi.2516:

Awesome then. I don’t really see the problem there. Zerging is for baddies anyway isn’t it? Are you a zerg lover?

I am in a prominent WvW Guild on our server. We tend to have guild events in WvW quite often, which often means running around as a guild and doing stuff.
With the proposed changes we would suddenly be punished for playing as a guild, and I don’t really see how that is a good thing, in any way or form.

SmallCat.7413:

wvw reward lower than pve.If Anet do this,more player will leave wvw.

I don’t agree with the OP, but this is completely wrong. Running an RvE zerg train in Tier 1 is better loot per time than anything in Orr these days. It’s why most players zerg. It would be nice if WvW wasn’t the #1 spot for PvE event grinders, but I think the solution is to restore PvE events, not nerf WvW rewards.

SlothBear.9846:

SmallCat.7413:

wvw reward lower than pve.If Anet do this,more player will leave wvw.

…
Running an RvE zerg train in Tier 1 is better loot per time than anything in Orr these days.
…

Yeah, as a zerg leech you basically tag as much as you can and don’t give a flying duck if that was PC or NPC you’ve tagged.

My guild (saying it without being condescending or anything) runs pretty good on WvW. And every successful fight makes us (although untagget 99% of the time) an attention magnet for friendlies. They learned to keep up with us no matter how fast we run and which tricks we use (like TPing to the BL wp while being close to tagged commander).

Recently I saw someone from the “pickup swarm” actually thanking us for all the loot bags they get. That was kinda sad moment for me because lootz is last thing we care about as a guild raid. We were in the black gold-wise anyway long before changes that brought more loot into WvW.

We don’t want to be a “karma/gold train” driving force. Reality however is that we are. And unless we want to alienate friendlies by telling them to gtfo, there’s little we can do about it.

People aren’t doing this for loot. Reducing their badges or loot will have no real impact on anything.

Just make this game require some element of strategy in WvW. Like you can’t take SM unless you have 75% of your borderland. You can’t take enemy towers on their side of EB unless you have your garrison. You can only claim neighboring structures. You can still siege whatever you want. You can still kill the lords in each structure. You just can’t take it over unless the lord in your neighboring area is still alive and your chain of neighboring lords are all still alive going all the way back to your garrison.

This way people actually need to defend their stuff. If you’re being zerged and can’t win, take your zerg to their land and kill a random lord in some random tower so they can’t take your stuff until they go back and push you out.

This gives you time to regroup, push them out of your structure when they circle back. etc etc.

Another thing that must be done is remove the ability for players to harm gates. Siege should be the name of the game and without it, you’re not doing anything. Introduce handheld siege weapons that deal 10% damage to gates, 10% damage to walls, and 10% damage to players. This way if players want to harm gates and such, they need to equip actual siege weapons and run the risk of being engaged by the defenders with the weapons still equipped and unable to fight back.

The complete lack of depth to the PvP system in this game is the reason there isn’t anything to do but duel by windmills and zerg with the occasional roaming thief griefing uplevels as they try to catch up to the zerg they died with.

lordkrall.7241:

I am in a prominent WvW Guild on our server. We tend to have guild events in WvW quite often, which often means running around as a guild and doing stuff.
With the proposed changes we would suddenly be punished for playing as a guild, and I don’t really see how that is a good thing, in any way or form.

I am also in a prominent guild and I am typing this right after our guild raid. Still I am supporting what I wrote here and I don’t see it as any sort of punishment for running as a guild.

My suggestion would NOT mean that zergs or groups wouldn’t get any rewards. In fact if you read my proposal fully you would note that I am suggesting to adjust the rewards so that the average player would still get roughly the same amount of loot.

Many times you can choose in WvWvW. Let’s say you have a group of 5. You can choose to chase down 1 enemy invader and probably get a guaranteed kill. Or you can attack enemy team of 5, facing good chances of losing as well. Currently most players are choosing the first option, but if we adjust things a bit, maybe a bit more players would actually choose the latter.

Deniara Devious.3948:

I think this is rather extreme.

Welcome to the internet.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Already in pve when several players hit the same normal (non-boss/veteran) monster usually only one of them gets loot. So are you implying that pve is full of such cries as well? as not everybody gets loot from the same monster when several people are blasting it.

This is a non sequitur. In PvE, you may or may not get loot from a mob but you also have no effect on what loot everyone else gets. Having more players just means the mobs die faster.

This change would create a single loot drop for each enemy death in WvW and then hand that loot bag to one person randomly from those who got credit for the kill. Can you imagine how frustrating it would be to spend a few minutes dueling someone, and then some jerk from your server comes over, hits your foe a few times while you’re finishing the stomp, and then gets a loot bag, preventing you from getting anything? No, that would be terrible.

how selfish you are, get on your servers teamspeak, play together

I wouldn’t punish people playing in zergs but it would be nice to up the prize for players going solo/skirmish.

Promote more split play instead of nerfing zergs. To each individual player the zergs are safe and rewarding, but they are actually a waste of bodies. If split play offer more rewards, then people would be willing to take the risk of incorporating it into their strategies. And is already more effective than a zerg, just not as safe/rewarding for each individual.

The pittance of loot is barely keeping pugs there and many people complain it’s hardly enough to maintain repairs and upgrades.

Until those wvw chests stop sucking, this isn’t really viable.

We could also increase the aoe cap, but that’s insane right?

Reducing WvW loot, really? Guys, do you understand what WvW loot is bad in comparison with PvE farm, and laughable in comparison with dungeon farming?

Anet has already lowered loot and drops at one point in WvW. It ended with really bad results and hinders legend hunters. And your ideas are flawed since this will not stop zergs in any way positive. It will stop the zergs but mainly because people would get tired of not getting anything and quit WvW. Also zergs are mainly to cap everything with farming a distant second since drops in WvW are pretty subpar as compared to PvE and Dungeon farming. Farming is commonly done when map is fully capped and the winning server has nothing better to do. If you want to split off from the zerg, get some friends and just run around capping camps if that is what you are into play style wise.
Also even if it did reward the lower number, there will still be zergs to kill the smaller groups off and move on to the next objective.

Awful idea.

I wonder when people will stop posting terrible posts about WvW loot. Especially one concerning with DR. Also your commander probably suck. WvW zerg battles are very tactical and strategical, and I find they have a really stressful job of leading successful battles (unless the server matchup is the awful type where one server outnumbers another by 100 players 24/7.)

Changing the way loot work won’t change the Meta on active servers. If Server 1 runs a 50+ man zerg, server 2 and 3 will have to run something close to or equal the numbers to compete. All it takes is 1 server to run big numbers and all 3 have to as well.

Bad Idea imo.

EDIT: Also all this talk about breaking up the zergs. One of the most epic fights I’v ever been in was reset night BG garrison. If it wasn’t for SoR and JQ’s massive numbers it would have been a bore. But nope they had huge numbers everywhere and it was a blast. And skill lag? Its been here for so long that I’m surprised people haven’t figured out how to play in it yet. At this point its part of the game…

@OP

Or maybe people just enjoy zerging and it has nothing to do with loot bags or useless wxp levels?