Guild Wars 2

So i’m some what new to GW2 and to WVW. Only playing for about 2 months now i think that is a bit understandable though. Being a person that did not like PVP of any sort in any other games i was surprised by how much i like the WVW mechanics. But there are many things i did not understand and still don’t and maybe never will.

1.One side being allowed to out number another side requiring zero skill to win. Instead they just steam roll over players and keeps.

Yeah this i just could not wrap my head around. That is not a real competition if the other side is out numbered. Why do they allow this to happen? Why not keep it more close? If red and blue for example already have 40 on each side why then allow more when green has 12-15 just as an example? It seems centered around rewarding zerging over strategy. And many lords just get killed before some can even get a shot off to tag it.

2.The out numbered showing up at times and not at others.

Again some thing i do not understand. Clearly you are out numbered yet this does not show up. You have 15-20 people and here comes a group of 40-60 people clearly we are out numbered right? So why is it that it shows at times and not at others?

3.Building up keeps and defending them as you upgrade them rewards you with nothing.

Ok so you spend your time and money sitting there upgrading and defending it and you get nothing from it. I do not understand why this is. You are helping out and contributing but get no rewards.

4.Helping to speed up supplies being delivered does not always reward you.

Be it using a running buff on them or following them in their routes does not reward you even though you are helping and contributing. Some times yes some times no. And seems to be no consistency in it.

5.The defend your place mini event.

This is seriously flawed. Repairing walls and gates adds nothing to this at all. Then if you do beat back your attackers that means little when now you have to run and pick up supply to repair walls and gates. I do not understand why when the timer runs down that the walls and gates are not repaired after the timer runs out. This would add more strategy in depth to force attackers to be more oganized.

6.Why commanders run their groups right at a zerg they know they can not hope to beat as they are out numbered.

I do not understand this at all. If you really wanted to protect that place why not hit that enemies keep causing them to do a retreat to defend? I am told “If we can not beat them in the field we stand no chance at a keep”. Completely missing the point that it does more for defending the place then storming at them dying and respawning while they take it any way.

7.Lack of chat from commanders as well as lack of them reading chat.

This i see a lot of. They expect and think every one is in their TS and ignore those around not using it. This leaves many in the dark about what is happening. And allows the loss of key places. Really do not understand it. Using TS is a great tool but helps little if not every one chooses to use it.

8.The defense of places taken over.

Again i don’t understand. We take a place we work hard to get it and what do we do? Immediately clean out the supplies and move to the next ignoring it even when it is being taken again.

These are things i just do not understand as a new player at all and can not wrap my head around. I really like WVW and it is a lot of fun. Its just these little things that kind of frustrate new players trying to learn. It seems all about the zerg and trying to out number your enemies and has little to nothing to do with and form of skill or even strategy.

You know that if they just hit a small tower that they are going to hit a supply camp if they did not just before hitting the tower. And then move to the next tower or to your keep. Pretty predictable. So you want to gain any thing from WVW? Here is what i’ve learned be it good or bad.

1.Hope you are not the ones out numbered if so log off try again later.

2.If you out number the others then get in line follow commander and spam 1 when encountering enemy players and at keeps and towers.

3.Doing other things give little reward in WVW so if you are not in the zerg evidently you are doing it wrong or at least that is what is said quite a lot.

4.Do not try to ask questions or to give forth strategies as most players do not care unless you’ve forked out 100 gold for a tag.

5.If you want to be number 1 then hope you started on a high population number 1 server already as numbers matter more in WVW then game play or strategy.

May not be the best advice out there but seems to work. Deviating from this you will be saddened by little WVW xp and rewards. I wish there was a bit more depth to WVW then what there is currently. It is fun and engaging when your not seriously out numbered. I wish you could be more rewarded for other things that matter in WVW. But so far all i’ve seen is 1 spamming and running trying to stay up with the zerg.

Now i’ve seen times when numbers were very close. And those fights were very fun and memorable. But sadly so far they seem very far and few in between. I’m just hoping that what i’ve learned so far in WVW is not all there is to WVW. And hoping some one can explain to me the things i just can not seem to understand about WVW.

I hope this did not come across as a rant thread. That was not my intention at all. So i apologize in advance if that seems to be the case.There are just some things i do not understand and seem frustrating to me as a newer player to GW2.

Thank you for your perspective zolton,

You’ve stumbledupon the frustration that all WvW regulars feel.

Welcome to the club

So i’m some what new to GW2 and to WVW. Only playing for about 2 months now i think that is a bit understandable though. Being a person that did not like PVP of any sort in any other games i was surprised by how much i like the WVW mechanics. But there are many things i did not understand and still don’t and maybe never will.

1.One side being allowed to out number another side requiring zero skill to win. Instead they just steam roll over players and keeps.

+What happens if you want to play wvw but can’t get in? The problem is that the outnumbered buff doesn’t do enough to balance the fight. But not letting people play would be maddening. +

2.The out numbered showing up at times and not at others.

It should be more transparent. Might help if they gave us the actual numbers on each side or a range

3.Building up keeps and defending them as you upgrade them rewards you with nothing.

Agreed! I like to say “it isn’t your personal keep” so shouldn’t the “king” pay you a little something each “tick” with the reward “cumulating over time” so long as you are providing “one of 5 or 6 services from repairing, manning siege, having conversations with enough NPCs” or anything that forces active play?

4.Helping to speed up supplies being delivered does not always reward you.

+There should be a reward for anyone spending X amount of time “by yak” with a special reward for any “attack on yak defended”. +

6.Why commanders run their groups right at a zerg they know they can not hope to beat as they are out numbered.

Right now the rewards are setup to favor fighting even if you don’t win the fight. One of the reasons is that you get loot bags after each mob/toon dies versus it being delayed until a certain area is cleared of the enemy. If you required a clear area then a large loot box with ALL the bags of the enemies slain appeared. . . you would change that pretty quickly

7.Lack of chat from commanders as well as lack of them reading chat.

+Most communication happens on 3rd party speech based programs because chat is just sub-optimal. Does your server have Vent or TeamSpeak? It might be a good idea to allow a commander to draw on the map you pull up but that could lead to abuse too. Perhaps an option where YOU your toon to see what commanders are drawing on the map? That would allow you to quickly open the map and see targets, objectives etc. +

8.The defense of places taken over.

Even if you give rewards, defense is never going to be a favorite of players unless the area gets attacked. What works is when a game allows defenders to get to the keep, tower, etc. VERY quickly via a waypoint (with the size of the number of people who can waypoint being the deciding factor of upgrades) so that when there is an attack there is a defense. Otherwise, waiting isn’t fun.

So, I’m a fairly veteran player in WvW, so let me try to address some of these. Some of the issues have a “historical” reason.

1. The issue with balancing numbers is very tricky. Unless you make it like a tpvp system, where there is individual matches, you’re really just going to have a weird WvW system. Also, if they restricted the amount of players that could be in a map based on the minimum of the servers, it could be easily exploited (i.e. server blob sees there is opposition by pug force in a T3 keep. The commander tells them to all leave WvW. This reduces the population on that map to a small number, kicking other players out. If the blob is in TS/Mumble, the commander tells them go back in and storm the keep, now with very few people actively defending). There have been many discussions to try to figure out how to “balance” population differences, from better outmanned buffs, to changing the PPT weight. So far none have been applied because its very tricky to devise a system which is FAIR and not easily exploitable.

2. Its been long known this buff is buggy, mostly because it seems like its based on a hard ratio, so if a person on the opposing team comes in and sets it off by 1 person it comes off. I.e. if its set to a 2v1 numbers, and the other team gets 51 players, you lose the buff…50 you have it, 51 you don’t. Seems a bit silly, but you have to make a “cutoff” somewhere.

3. So, there used to be ideas for doing this. However, sometimes you DONT wait to repair walls. For instance, someone is trebbing down your wall actively, you sometimes dont want to waste supply and repair unless a team is getting that treb down. During the 1st season, you could get meta achievements by repairing walls. What was seen was players would actively waste supply on repairing walls being trebbed down, knowing they could just keep putting on endless repairs. This drains the keeps of supplies, hurts the server performance..but hey, they got their 5 AP? So, the issue with rewarding for upgrades/repair is it can incur bad play which benefits a single player but might screw over a server. (i.e. popping a fortify upgrade when the keep has 200 supply and currently under attack).

4. They actually USED to do this. They used to give rewards for people escorting yaks as an event completion. However, it was exploited with bots and players just passively walking the yaks around. Once again, it’d be fantastic if they do this, however because the yaks have fixed paths, far too easy to exploit. Also, it’d give out too many rewards if it was just buffing the yak. They’d have to make it so you only got rewards if you defended the yak when it was ATTACKED and it LIVES, not just escorting a yak passively for it to actually not be exploitable/farmed.

5. There is an underlying issue with giving rewards for doing things like sentrying, upgrading and rewarding. Right now their system is half-way decent. You only get rewards when you do repair/defend when its under attack. if your keep is under attack and you kill people, or put on repairs during the timer, you get rewards. Its often just bronze or silver, but you still get something. They can’t really give rewards for players passively sitting in a keep when its not “under attack”. Why? Well, players could then just passively sit afk and collect rewards from not doing anything. Imagine if your BL had a T3 keep, and you had 20 people just sitting in it getting rewards, not doing anything.

(cont next post)

6. So, there is a clear reason why this often does not work. And most of the times a commander is in the right for NOT doing what you suggest. One thing I suggest most players to do is to try to command themselves, and then they’ll start to understand why some commanders make certain choices. So, lets give a scenario like you said. You’re in a T2 keep being attacked by a group of 40. You have 15 people. You have two choices: go and attack their keep and hope it pulls them off, or stay and defend. If you port out and attack their keep on that side, if they have a competent commander, they’ll just have 10-15 people port of our their group and go counter you. Your keep has 25 enemies left with very few defenders, and now your team has a 15v15 fight in an enemy keep. Odds are the enemy will grab your keep since it has fewer defenders and you won’t get yours. The only way a strategy like this works is if you have a small group of ~5 try to ninja it, OR you have another force on the map (in which, they can always come help defend anyways). Often times if your keep was properly sieged up, you can defend it from 3:1 or even 4:1 number differences, especially for Hills and Garrison. Also, a common strategy is to repair out, and keep pushing them. Your team might die a lot, but they can get back into the keep much faster, so you slowly dwindle their numbers.

In the end, if you cannot beat a group in YOUR keep, odds are you won’t be able to beat them in THEIR keep, if they’re smart enough to respond with even a small force. Then you’re fighting against THEIR siege, and they have the advantage. It can work, but if you have a group that isn’t all in comms, etc, you often end up losing your keep. Best strategy: try to call out to other maps for help, or keep running supply in slowly and building up siege on the inner walls.

7. So, on TC we’ve had lots of debates about this issue. In the end, text commanding is VERY inefficient compared to voice commanding. It can be done for things like defending for general commanders, but you CANNOT command in an active fight and give commands in text . You just can’t, at least not effectively. This is why groups in voIP have massive advantages over groups that aren’t. If you don’t run in TS/Mumble (you rarely have to talk, just listen!), then you’re limited to what you can say. You can do general commanders: “Build AC’s here”, “Push to them”. But, in the middle of a fight a commander can’t keep typing “Stack!”, “Blast”, “Push”, “On me”, etc..especially since there really are no chat macros. It’s not a matter of being elitist or exclusionary, its just a matter of what you can actually do. Again, the best way understand this is to try commanding yourself and try to type out all the commands you need. It’s almost impossible to be effective. Great commanders tend to use both: text for general, and voIp for specific. Its also hard, in an active engagement to read all the text that is scrolling by and respond to it. They may be reading it, but just are too busy to type.

8. This is typically called Karma-training (or K-train). Servers often do this when they massively outnumber and opponent, or on Fridays/Thursday nights when PPT isn’t as important. Why do this? Well, if you’re up by 40k, you don’t need to hold T2/T3 stuff on offensive maps. You can go on there, cap stuff, have some fun and take rewards. It’s not a practice I neccessarily like, but thats why. If your enemies don’t have the numbers to really affect you, then most players don’t see the point in sieging up a keep and actively upgrading it when they can just roll in with 2-3 times the numbers if it gets attacked.

I hope this helps. Many of the things you brought up are brought up over and over again by newer players, often times without people explaining why. Defense rewards in general are tricky to implement, since they are prone to passive farming/exploiting. Many commanders have their own style. Its best to find one you like running with, and then try to join his/her guild, or just run with them. Do what is fun for you

My advice while playing WvW is don’t worry about the PPT game too much. The game mode is literally all about coverage. The server with the most players wins. I would suggest partying up with a couple guildies and just roaming. Maybe even set a camp or sentry trap. That’s what we do, we just kitten around and look for players to fight. Or we’ll find out where a zerg fight is and see if we can lure a few off the back to chase us. Some of my best nights in wvw were the nights were we literally didn’t look at the ppt or score the entire night and just roamed around fighting folks (sorry server, meanwhile we lost like all our towers and stuff lol)

Bombsaway

1.So its better to leave a side completely out numbered and no means of defense just because some one decides they want to login and off set the balance even more?

As a few suggestions having the side that is out numbered receive a huge toughness and vitality bump allowing them to contend in a zerg without being killed before the zerg even completely passes you as they run by. Or a static map port where those who are trying to get into lets say EB get instead ported into one of the other 3 maps where their side does not out number the opposition. And have the out numbered trigger sooner say when one side has more then 5 more players then the opposition side on the same map?

3 and 4 i agree be nice to be rewarded for helping out your side by upgrading repairing defending and running supplies. It be nice if we could also move supply our selves from say the main keep and deposit in one of the towers.

7.Ts only works really if all players use it. And that is the problem not all choose to use it for what ever reason they have. And commanders should not just rely on TS and should also utilize the in game chat function as well so all players are informed is my problem with them using TS exclusively.

Handin

1.What i was suggesting would limit those coming into the map not those already on the map. And using a que system is not helping i think it be best that if the map is already out numbered force those wishing to join to be ported to another of the 4 maps until the numbers become more even. So you are on a que but to remain on the que for the map you want you must participate on the map you were just ported to.

2.That is not what i noticed. We could be out manned 2 to 1 ration and no buff at all. I do not know how this buff works but it seems tempormental lol

3.It is still terrible that you get no rewards for repairing the damage upgrading and other tasks that are needed to be performed to benefit your side. Regardless of whether some were doing it to repair walls from a treb attack or not. That is also why i suggested that if we are attacked and the timer finishes without them taking the place all damage should self repair making this a moot issue.

4.Its a hit or miss. You can defend the yak now follow it to its final destination and still get no rewards. And the rewards you do get if it does actually trigger are very small. And there are already many exploits taking place as it is for farming different rewards that escorting a yak is the least of them IMO.

5.I’m not talking about afking and getting rewarded. I’m talking about starting upgrades and staying there defending the keep until the upgrade completes. And if you come in a bit late you get bronze half way to 74% silver and 100% to 75% gold. Thats not really op and if your afk and an attack happens that was not thwarted you are dead with no rewards.

6.We are not talking about players inside said keep defending it just fyi. We are talking a commander decides to go try to defend said place and are already outside of the place being defended. Different scenario altogether.

And good advice about commanders i’ve noticed when some pop up the battle empties while others pick up steam. As a newer player it is frustrating to be steam rolled by over 20 players often before you can get an attack off and that is no fun for either side. So i do hope they get some of this sorted out. Like maybe have lords and champions scale like the bosses in the pavilion to curb zerging a bit? I don’t know but it be nice either way.

1. The issue with balancing numbers is very tricky. Unless you make it like a tpvp system, where there is individual matches, you’re really just going to have a weird WvW system. Also, if they restricted the amount of players that could be in a map based on the minimum of the servers, it could be easily exploited (i.e. server blob sees there is opposition by pug force in a T3 keep. The commander tells them to all leave WvW. This reduces the population on that map to a small number, kicking other players out. If the blob is in TS/Mumble, the commander tells them go back in and storm the keep, now with very few people actively defending). There have been many discussions to try to figure out how to “balance” population differences, from better outmanned buffs, to changing the PPT weight. So far none have been applied because its very tricky to devise a system which is FAIR and not easily exploitable.

Ok, you said numbers.

Why can’t they just “lock” out players until the numbers even out? They do this for all other maps in PvE – so why not allow a 10% over the other server numbers and then queue the map?

This 50-10 isn’t making a fun game – it’s producing a very empty WvW maps on at least one of the three sides in any WvW match.

zolton.4350:

5.The defend your place mini event.

This is seriously flawed. Repairing walls and gates adds nothing to this at all. Then if you do beat back your attackers that means little when now you have to run and pick up supply to repair walls and gates. I do not understand why when the timer runs down that the walls and gates are not repaired after the timer runs out. This would add more strategy in depth to force attackers to be more oganized.

I don’t think so. What I like about the current system is that you can make progress against a well-fortified objective without cracking it in one blow. We once spent three hours “swiss-cheesing” Bay and draining enemy supply each and every way we could find in order to steal it from a larger force.

Changing it might also remove the offensive value of fortifications as platforms for trebs that can apply pressure to adjacent forts.

If anything I’d rather a freshly captured keep only come back at half strength or something, to force attackers to fix it up a bit afterward.

zolton.4350:

6.Why commanders run their groups right at a zerg they know they can not hope to beat as they are out numbered.

Sometimes commanders are stupid. They are just players like anyone else. Many of them are clever and experienced players. But anyone with the gold can tag up and do whatever, usually with folks following them.

It could also be a miscalculation from an otherwise competent leader (it’s hard to judge the overall ability of your “militia” sometimes; smaller groups can wipe larger ones with tight play) or a delaying tactic. Shrug!

zolton.4350:

8.The defense of places taken over.

Again i don’t understand. We take a place we work hard to get it and what do we do? Immediately clean out the supplies and move to the next ignoring it even when it is being taken again.

As above, sometimes it’s because commanders are dumb. Some of them are basically just k-training.

Sometimes, though, it’s because there’s a huge advantage to resetting an enemy’s stuff (removing a waypoint or just making the walls paper so a group can come along and take it later), but there’s no way you can legitimately hold it. To hold and upgrade Lake Tower on your home map, for instance, you’ll need the ability to semi-reliably control the adjacent supply camps. All three locations are easily and directly accessible from the enemy spawn, though. In such a situation, it probably makes a lot more sense to blitz both Lake and Briar (wipe their upgrades, clear their siege, force your enemies to spend time recapping them) than to play take-and-hold.

zolton.4350:

7.Lack of chat from commanders as well as lack of them reading chat.

Have you tried it? TS/Mumble/Vent are soooooo much better for communication than the chat box. They enable much tighter play.

Using /map and /team does help you keep the “militia” organized, but it’s a pretty big headache for commanders. The most successful commanders I’ve seen make use of the chat box, but not directly. Instead they to delegate it to someone else, who can relay their important orders or read scouting info aloud in voice chat. Just like they delegate keeping track of timers. Otherwise it tends to be too much for one person to handle, and the game will flood-cap you at the worst possible times.

In combat, though, trying to coordinate anything using the chat box is pretty much a lost cause.

And that is my point ASP. You can work hard and take stone mist but what good does it when they can treb the walls from safety of other towers and keeps keeping the outer wall down and makes it not worth repairing as they will just continue to bombard the wall taking it out any way making the outer wall useless.

It may as well not exist at all. And even if you do beat back the attackers it does no good at all as they will still be trebbing the wall repeatedly. Makes it extremely difficult to defend. If after the timer is up and you still control that keep the walls and gates should be back at 100%.

It causes more diverse strategy to attacking and defending. Right now its lazy. One side in EB can easily keep anz and ogres by just trebbing from the over look. And stone mist can be trebbed from over look as well as wild creek and the other tower close by. This adds no challenge in taking stone mist and locks you down defending it from the center by the lord.

The outer walls are nothing at all to stone mist especially when it costs so much supply to fix the walls only to have them trebbed from keeps/towers a good distance away. So despite your hard work you may win a few of the battles but you will definitely lose the war its only a matter of time.

Having them repair when successfully defending a place not only gives an incentive to defend towers but makes the offensive use more strategy to take it. I would think that be a good thing especially preferred over a zerg fest.

And i can see your point in combat about commanders dictating orders. But these same commanders have scouts at our our places to watch for attacks as well. They could easily be used to inform others of what is going on as they are not in the thick of it and are generally bored any way.

Met one poor sap who made a ram in the middle of a keep talking to it and calling it stumpy. So these guys could use more to do. I’ve seen several times our main keep was wiped as was our WP just because a commander failed to look at chat. I personally do not like TS and such and can understand why others do not use it be it hardware limitations or what not. So more commanders utilizing chat would benefit every one be they using a TS or not.

Hamster.4861:

Thank you for your perspective zolton,

You’ve stumbledupon the frustration that all WvW regulars feel.

Welcome to the club

100% this, don’t expect much change, we haven’t seen any indication that it will be different in a year.

The irony is, the reason these problems exist is encapsulated in your post.

You want rewards.

The reason people don’t bother defending, and zerg around, is because they want rewards and they want them fast.

People who play WvW for its own sake, and pay no attention to rewards, are free of these shackles.

zolton.4350:

1.One side being allowed to out number another side requiring zero skill to win. Instead they just steam roll over players and keeps.

Yeah this i just could not wrap my head around. That is not a real competition if the other side is out numbered. Why do they allow this to happen? Why not keep it more close? If red and blue for example already have 40 on each side why then allow more when green has 12-15 just as an example? It seems centered around rewarding zerging over strategy. And many lords just get killed before some can even get a shot off to tag it.

New topic regarding this are created on a daily basis

zolton.4350:

2.The out numbered showing up at times and not at others.

Again some thing i do not understand. Clearly you are out numbered yet this does not show up. You have 15-20 people and here comes a group of 40-60 people clearly we are out numbered right? So why is it that it shows at times and not at others?

Maybe there are 20-40 who are doing their own thing like crafting, AFK on the spawn or roaming, they do count

or maybe an overlooked bug.

zolton.4350:

3.Building up keeps and defending them as you upgrade them rewards you with nothing.

Ok so you spend your time and money sitting there upgrading and defending it and you get nothing from it. I do not understand why this is. You are helping out and contributing but get no rewards.

Reward: PPT

zolton.4350:

4.Helping to speed up supplies being delivered does not always reward you.

Be it using a running buff on them or following them in their routes does not reward you even though you are helping and contributing. Some times yes some times no. And seems to be no consistency in it.

Reward: Supplies

zolton.4350:

5.The defend your place mini event.

This is seriously flawed. Repairing walls and gates adds nothing to this at all. Then if you do beat back your attackers that means little when now you have to run and pick up supply to repair walls and gates. I do not understand why when the timer runs down that the walls and gates are not repaired after the timer runs out. This would add more strategy in depth to force attackers to be more oganized.

You mean full repair of gates/walls every 3 minutes? O__O

zolton.4350:

6.Why commanders run their groups right at a zerg they know they can not hope to beat as they are out numbered.

I do not understand this at all. If you really wanted to protect that place why not hit that enemies keep causing them to do a retreat to defend? I am told “If we can not beat them in the field we stand no chance at a keep”. Completely missing the point that it does more for defending the place then storming at them dying and respawning while they take it any way.

Its easier to defend than to attack, much easier if you outnumber your opponents.

zolton.4350:

7.Lack of chat from commanders as well as lack of them reading chat.

This i see a lot of. They expect and think every one is in their TS and ignore those around not using it. This leaves many in the dark about what is happening. And allows the loss of key places. Really do not understand it. Using TS is a great tool but helps little if not every one chooses to use it.

Its way faster and easier on comms than type everytime.

Usually when someone says “wwdsa21111dwadawawdaw11152326” in chat dies

zolton.4350:

8.The defense of places taken over.

Again i don’t understand. We take a place we work hard to get it and what do we do? Immediately clean out the supplies and move to the next ignoring it even when it is being taken again.

Probably you don’t have enough people to defend it anyway and the goal is only to reset the structures upgrades.
This is usually done on enemy’s natural structures or karma train commanders

They could easily give a rewards for defeating 10 players during a defensive event. This would prevent people who were afk from getting the achievements.

retsuya

I am sure there are. And they are valid concerns. Being greatly out numbered and standing no chance at all is not fun for either side. Those out numbered are frustrated and those out numbering them could not be having much fun being on easy mode.

Two things i’d suggest are:

1.Make kills for those out numbered count as points for your side. Being out numbered the odds of taking a keep are next to impossible so at least they can earn points for their side and a toughness and vitality boost should be given to allow them to at least get close to the zerg without dying before a shot is even fired.

2.Cap off the maps and have each map reflect its own population for said map. I think one of the bugs with the out numbered is that it registers all population over all maps. Meaning while you may be out numbered in EB you may not be in one of the other maps although this does not seem to register. Hard caps when one side is out numbered forcing those who are out numbering others to sit it out or transfer to another server to help even things out.

This way it can allow for the other side to at least get more players in. I’ve been on EB where there was a long Que i get in to see we are out numbered by almost 3 to 1 from both of the opposing sides. That kind of thing is very unbalanced. Especially if the 2 opposing factions team up on you then you are out numbered 6 to 1 not 3 to 1.

And i don’t know about roaming but i do know i may see 4-5 people afk at the starting way point. But in a fight where we are out numbered 2-3 to 1 the 4 or 5 afkers are not going to make up that much of a difference. Even factoring in roamers i doubt there are that many unless they are standing in a part of a map just dancing all day as you see no activity from any of them.

You say “The reward is the supplies”? That may benefit your side but it does nothing to benefit the player putting in the hard work to help escort those supplies to make sure it gets there and a little faster now does it? Especially when the max you can carry is 10 (15 with full supply and 20 if you have full supply and the buff) and an upgraded supply delivers 70 and unupgraded 35 or so. So it does not benefit the person and is pointless with no direct reward to the players for doing it.

I mean you attack a tower as an example you get beat back and the timer finishes the event is now ended it should then repair said walls and gates. Giving more reason to defend these places. And make them a bit less of a zerg fest which no one i’ve seen in game enjoys. Although i’m sure some enjoy being rewarded for little to no work and as such love to zerg.

And you may think that but what are you going to do if your attacking a tower when your keep is under attack? Let your keep and WP be taken away? Or go defend it? Its a valid strategy i’ve yet to see being used. And if you are going to die any way as its clear your out numbered would it be best dying accomplishing some thing? Or die for no other reason? If you die trying to take their keep at least they were distracted long enough to come back to stop you allowing you a bit more time to set up a better defense and use up a bit of their supplies to repair the damage.

I understand the point of taking out towers to reset them. I don’t understand not defending them at least a short while not only to distract the opposing side but also helps in adding points to your side. Just hit it take it and leave it does little to help your side when the enemy retakes it right away because you choose not to set up a small defense to delay them.

The game called guild wars 2.

Join a guild – enjoy nice fights.

PPT is sick, dirty and unfair game where not everything decided by strategy, tactic and cooperation.

Wich server are you playing on?

zolton.4350:

1.Make kills for those out numbered count as points for your side. Being out numbered the odds of taking a keep are next to impossible so at least they can earn points for their side and a toughness and vitality boost should be given to allow them to at least get close to the zerg without dying before a shot is even fired.

2.Cap off the maps and have each map reflect its own population for said map. I think one of the bugs with the out numbered is that it registers all population over all maps. Meaning while you may be out numbered in EB you may not be in one of the other maps although this does not seem to register. Hard caps when one side is out numbered forcing those who are out numbering others to sit it out or transfer to another server to help even things out.

I just said alot of threads here regading this topic

zolton.4350:

You say “The reward is the supplies”? That may benefit your side but it does nothing to benefit the player putting in the hard work to help escort those supplies to make sure it gets there and a little faster now does it? Especially when the max you can carry is 10 (15 with full supply and 20 if you have full supply and the buff) and an upgraded supply delivers 70 and unupgraded 35 or so. So it does not benefit the person and is pointless with no direct reward to the players for doing it.

Supplies are really vital to this game mode.
Most wvw players for fights, test their skills/builds/teamwork or defend/attack objectives, loots are bonus.

zolton.4350:

And you may think that but what are you going to do if your attacking a tower when your keep is under attack? Let your keep and WP be taken away? Or go defend it? Its a valid strategy i’ve yet to see being used. And if you are going to die any way as its clear your out numbered would it be best dying accomplishing some thing? Or die for no other reason? If you die trying to take their keep at least they were distracted long enough to come back to stop you allowing you a bit more time to set up a better defense and use up a bit of their supplies to repair the damage.

Get in voice comms to know whats up.

zolton.4350:

I mean you attack a tower as an example you get beat back and the timer finishes the event is now ended it should then repair said walls and gates. Giving more reason to defend these places. And make them a bit less of a zerg fest which no one i’ve seen in game enjoys.

Makes it more zergy because of the 3 minute timer. As it will need more people and supplies to get inside objectives.

zolton.4350:

Although i’m sure some enjoy being rewarded for little to no work and as such love to zerg.

…

I understand the point of taking out towers to reset them. I don’t understand not defending them at least a short while not only to distract the opposing side but also helps in adding points to your side. Just hit it take it and leave it does little to help your side when the enemy retakes it right away because you choose not to set up a small defense to delay them.

You just described karma training and some people enjoy doing it as you said.

zolton.4350:

retsuya

I am sure there are. And they are valid concerns. Being greatly out numbered and standing no chance at all is not fun for either side. Those out numbered are frustrated and those out numbering them could not be having much fun being on easy mode.

Two things i’d suggest are:

1.Make kills for those out numbered count as points for your side…

This has been suggested. At one point the outnumbered buff granted players the advantage of not having to pay to repair their armor. When ArenaNet removed all armor repair costs from the game, this left the “Outnumbered” buff with one less bonus. To fill that void, I suggested outnumbered players earn a World Score point for each player kill they make. Ball is in ArenaNet’s court.

zolton.4350:

2.Cap off the maps…

I play at a time when the server to which I belong has low numbers on the map. I’m very familiar with being outnumbered for the last 2 years and, yes, it can be disheartening. Even so, I can appreciate the counter-arguments that no scaling population caps should be placed on the maps.

The exploiting issues aside (which have already been mentioned by others), I would hate to not be able to play simply because another server had less players on the map. I wouldn’t want to see that imposed on anyone even if it would benefit me as one of the outnumbered.

You then go on to suggest players wouldn’t be prevented from playing, they’d simply be shunted to a different map than the one they queued on; a reasonable compromise. However, what happens when that server is outnumbering their opposition on all the maps? Are the players who are queued prevented from playing at all (until the populations even out; assuming that ever happens)?

zolton.4350:

You say “The reward is the supplies”? That may benefit your side but it does nothing to benefit the player…

As retsuya stated, your motivation seems to be personal rewards in WvW. That’s fine; nothing wrong with that. However, speaking only for myself, I don’t really care about the rewards. I go there to have a fun time with my guild fighting for my server. My only interest in rewards is how they can be turned into gold so I can buy more siege or upgrade fortifications.

I consider it an annoyance to have to go through my inventory and clear out all the “junk” I’ve collected over the course of an evening in WvW (and that includes exotics and even ascended drops); that’s time that could be spent playing, instead. As long as the rewards are keeping pace with my expenditures (and they are), then I could care less about the personal rewards.

The reward comes from knowing I participated in helping my server succeed. The personal rewards are just a means to that end.

Also, there were rewards for Dolyak escorts early in the game. WvW was then plagued with bots scripted to follow the yaks around ad nauseum. Thankfully, ArenaNet quickly put an end to that practice by eliminating the rewards. I don’t want to see a return to that.

zolton.4350:

I mean you attack a tower as an example you get beat back and the timer finishes the event is now ended it should then repair said walls and gates. Giving more reason to defend these places. And make them a bit less of a zerg fest which no one i’ve seen in game enjoys. Although i’m sure some enjoy being rewarded for little to no work and as such love to zerg.

As ASP stated, the current situation gives smaller groups the opportunity to whittle down a well-fortified tower or keep over time. With auto-repair, all such opportunities would be lost. The only way to capture anything would be 24/7 Omega Golem rushes with a zerg to back it up since the capture would have to be completed within the 3 minute event window before the walls and gates auto-repair. It would promote zerging even more rather than reduce it.

zolton.4350:

And you may think that but what are you going to do if your attacking a tower when your keep is under attack? Let your keep and WP be taken away? Or go defend it? Its a valid strategy i’ve yet to see being used. And if you are going to die any way as its clear your out numbered would it be best dying accomplishing some thing? Or die for no other reason? If you die trying to take their keep at least they were distracted long enough to come back to stop you allowing you a bit more time to set up a better defense and use up a bit of their supplies to repair the damage..

(continued)

(continued)

Ummm…if your system of auto-repair at the end of a defense event were implemented, why would anyone repair anything if it’s just going to auto-repair at the end of the 3 minutes? I could see repairing a wall or gate that’s at risk of falling before the 3 minute mark. Outside of that, there’d be no rational reason to repair anything ever again.

As far as distractions, that happens frequently on the server on which I play (and I would imagine other servers, as well). We’ll switch maps to contest an opponent’s keeps and set up some rams to make it look like a “real” siege in an effort to pull them off our map or cease a siege in progress.

However, it doesn’t typically happen immediately; there’s usually a 5 to 10 minute delay before the enemy decides to break off. So maybe it is happening where you play, but the lag between initiating a distraction and when that distraction starts to work may be making it a less obvious cause-and-effect.

zolton.4350:

I understand the point of taking out towers to reset them. I don’t understand not defending them at least a short while not only to distract the opposing side but also helps in adding points to your side. Just hit it take it and leave it does little to help your side when the enemy retakes it right away because you choose not to set up a small defense to delay them.

It still benefits your server if you time it right. If you capture an objective around the 4 minute mark, you’re guaranteed to get points from it. PPT is calculated every 15 minutes (with a slight delay while it updates; when the timer displays “- -:- -”). NPC lords receive the “Righteous Indignation” buff for 5 minutes when an objective changes hands.

While the lords are invulnerable, a tower or keep can not be captured. So if you capture something at the 4 minute mark, the buff will still be active through the next PPT calculation, preventing the enemy from capturing it back, and guaranteeing your server at least one tick’s worth of points from that structure. If the enemy miss-times their recapture, you can just come back and re-recapture it back at or near the 4 minute mark again, earning yet another tick of points.

With regard to points, it’s not about who holds the objective the longest; only about who holds it when the timer reaches zero. An enemy can hang on to a tower for 14 minutes and 59 seconds. If I cap it when the timer is at “00:01”, my server still gets the points. I can agree this isn’t the best scoring methodology (and have even written pages and pages on this forum suggesting changes to the scoring system); but it’s the system we’re currently stuck with.

Setting up a small defense is fine, too; if you have the numbers. However, for smaller groups, peeling a couple players off to set up defenses every time they capture something would so dilute their forces that soon they won’t be able to capture anything if the enemy puts up even a minimal defense.

Other times, the “hit it, take it, and leave it” strategy isn’t about the points. It may be part of a distraction effort as discussed previously. It’s easy to get tunnel vision in WvW. To get an enemy’s attention (an inattentive enemy, anyway), it makes more of an impact to see 3 supply camps and 2 towers flip on their home border than a single keep become contested.

For a smaller force to pull that off they have to be fast and they have to stick together; they can’t afford to stay behind and defend something they’ve just capped if the real goal is to get an opponent to cut short a siege in progress to return and defend their own borderlands. It amounts to jumping up and down and yelling, “Hey, look over here! Half your border just changed color!”

It’s all about matching your available resources (number of players, their skill levels, available supply) to what your goal is (earn points, deny points, distract an opponent, destroy a waypoint to slow down an enemy, etc.).

There’s also abstract goals; demoralizing an opponent, for example. I once called for an end to repairing a wall that we could have easily fixed because I wanted the enemy to break through. I wanted them to be overconfident at their “success”. As the dust from the collapsing wall section flew up, we used it to cover our push and wiped them at the breach (outnumbered though we were). We then proceeded to farm them at that breach repeatedly rather than repair it. Eventually, they stopped trying to take the keep. By the way, an auto-repair system would have prevented us from doing this, too.

So there’s a lot more going on behind the scenes (and in voice comms ) than what may be readily apparent.

There are ways of beating the blob with fewer Numbers than them. My fav trick, Throw 2 or 3 superior AC’s and then bait them into the siege. For whatever reason, The blob will chase down just 3 or 4 players, So the 3 or 4 players simply get the blob to chase them into the siege. After a few times, The blob leaves your side alone.

Kraag Deadsoul

Yeah it be nice to actually be able to do some thing when out numbered.

There are actually 2 problems being fixed by not allowing one side to out number the other unfairly. The first is clear and that is you are totally out numbered and unable to defend or any thing. This is no fun at all. The other is that some server populations are far to high.

My idea of capping the maps funneling others into other maps while on a que serves two purposes. first being if your on a server that always out numbers in WVW and you want to WVW it leave you with two choices. The first being to participate and help on one of the other maps you are funneled into in order to get to the map you want. Or transfer to then not have to worry about it.

I do not see the “i just logged in and want to pvp but i can’t as there is a long que” as an argument. To be honest i could care less about “well i play at such and such time why should i be penalized?”. It is purely no fun at all to be out numbered or to get an advantage to zerg the map just because you happen to out number the enemy. This is no fun at all for either side at all.

And it is a broken mechanic that should have been fixed long ago. I’m also for tower and keep bosses scaling by the number of players in the general area much like how the pavilion works now. This would allow you more of a chance to defend a place that a huge zerg is at as it takes much longer to kill the boss. And would make zerging less fun and profitable forcing the blobs to space out.

And if your side out numbers on all maps? You really want to poor gasoline on a fire to put it out? Of corse block more from all maps till the numbers even out. If you get locked out enough times you’ll want to then transfer to another server. And i suggest a free 1 time transfer to another server when this is implemented. This way you can either pray you can get in to pvp in wvw or transfer and be assured you can get in. Solves 2 problems at once. As right now no one seems to want to transfer not only because of the rewards but also because of the costs. And this would solve both in one fell swoop.

And of course i would like to be rewarded for hard work. Nothing wrong with it. Its how the world is meant to work. You do work you get paid for said work. Right now though anything outside of following a zerg and blobbing along gives almost no rewards at all. And that should be fixed not have the baby thrown out with the wash. Buffing a supply delivery and protecting it from enemies making sure it arrives should be rewarded. Especially since blobs would have no siege if it was not done as they’d have no supplies.

How many blobs or zergs have you been a part of? I’ve seen them take towers with just rams in under 1 minute. And it is a huge flaw when one person trebbing safely from their own keep or tower can take down a wall almost completely uncontested. And keep that wall down indefinitely. There is no defense against it at all. And we are talking 1 person not a group here. But if you think a single person to a single group being able to under mine a whole servers work by themselves is a good thing then i can see why you would say that not having them repair is a good thing. But at the least a keep boss or tower boss should scale to meet the force hitting them. That would curb zergs as it takes much longer to capture when the more you have there the longer it takes and it would allow some form of defense.

And there are other things that need repaied like canons mortars and oil burning spots. I just think of it as a big exploit in distance using trebs to take down a wall easily with no resistence at all from another keep without a single person there to take it right away. You just hear “———- wall down” then the zerg hits it and moves on. But i can see your point that it could be used as a strategy itself.

As for strategies being deployed? I must just be on when the only commanders have adhd or something. They hit a place see a small resistance hit the next place rinse and repeat ad nauseam. Then you get the occasional lets switch maps as our BL keep is under attack then back to the same thing. All the while ignoring chat that our keep is under attack and that the outer wall is down………no strategy there i see at all unless the goal is to help out the opposition.

tym

And what do you do when 2 blobs are attacking you? You know one from each opposing servers? Your getting trebbed and catapulted as well as huge zergs you can’t possibly defeat especially as they are targeting your acs’s and taking them out all the while making swiss cheese of your keep?

I’ve defended a few towers before from blobs. And it is not easy and really difficult if its only 2 people there. And more difficult if acs’s are not already there.

Divide and Conquer. I like to skip over to there map, Ninja There hills, garry, or bay, siege it up, and wait for the bags to show up. If the bags don’t show, Then its hit and run, and Jump all over the place. And if I am really frustrated with them steam rolling, I have been known to throw down one HUGE omega rush. Them are are always a hoot. So it just depends how bad my side is loosing, how many toons I can get together. Not saying every idea works, but there are viable options.