Guild Wars 2

I’m sure it’s been suggested time and again but in WvW it’s the ability to res finished players that makes zerg’s so powerful. If you were actually able to cull the herd with gorilla tactics it would really shake things up.

Reason I bring this up is that now as this is an option in custom PvP arenas I imagine the hard part of coding is mostly done. I mean what harm could it do just to test it out? If it’s horrible just disable it again.

mcarswell.3768:

just requiring you to be out of combat to res a finished player would be enough and would make a huge difference imo.

Amen, the constant resurrecting of dead players really hurts any tactical depth this game may have. When the larger force has the time and players to constantly resurrect their fallen, what hope can you truly have to prevail?

Downed-State is bad enough as a snowballing mechanic. In combat resurrecting just adds further insult to injury.

Those gorilla tactics. Personally chest thumping is my favourite, but grunting and snarling is also up there.

But yes requiring to be out of combat is the way to go

But out of combat won’t help guerrilla tactics. Since the little band of guerrillas will be chased off, then the Zerg gets OOC, which allows them to res. I am perfectly fine with removing the ability to rez downed players all together. Make em run!

I would make dead players port and I would also black their screens so no more spying. The downside is more players would go with heavy armored classes than already do which honestly is too many as it is.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

But out of combat won’t help guerrilla tactics. Since the little band of guerrillas will be chased off, then the Zerg gets OOC, which allows them to res. I am perfectly fine with removing the ability to rez downed players all together. Make em run!

kitten. You can come back in and drop them in combat. Or if you don’t you’ve still slowed them down meaning they potentially miss getting to an objective. Out of combat rezzing will also allow you to rez teamates that die from falling damage. The laughter and mocking is punishment enough without having to run back.

the dead people spying is an annoying tactic too, your dead you can’t see anything. I say auto rezz the dead player after 5 seconds at the closest waypoint.

I’ve seen this suggested before and I’m still not in favor of it. While I agree with and understand what people are saying, I still feel that it’s rarely an issue. People who are selfish enough to stay dead will usually end up getting more of their own players killed. There are times when mass ressing happens, yes. And I definitely think something should be done about the time someone is able to stay dead for people who like to spy. But otherwise I just don’t see it as much of a problem.
I know that when an enemy zerg is attacking a tower for example, and I kill a few enemies with an arrow cart, I’ll immediately spam that dead enemy with a ton of arrows the second I see people trying to res them and bam, free kills because they usually can’t evade fast enough. Just take advantage of it instead of watching it happen. When someone, or a few people, are trying to res a buddy run over and stop them.

Out of combat res only, I really like, I would also like the removal of the downed state, or at the VERY least, make it so only one person can rally off of someone/something dying, not 10+ people, make it so out of everyone who tagged that one person, the one who did the most damage to them is the one who rallies, not everyone who tickled him. The fact I can run in with my guard with a staff and tag half the zerg and rally over an over is just stupid and gives the advantage that if you throw enough bodies at the problem you will reach a point where it nulls out any skill required, which is the problem of karma trains, they have laughable skill, but so many numbers it matters little. It would really change the tactics needed for allot of fighting that goes on in WvW right now.

sounds like a solution in the making already. i agree with this and think it’d be beneficial to the WvW community. once we were in SM lord’s room, and we were doing pretty good taking people down but we didn’t ahve enough to clear the entire room so we were moving aroudn a lot. and we’d always spot people ressing full dead. and they’d just stay there and wait for peoepl to pwoer res them, because they had the numbers.

again, another issue that reinforces the need for numbers over all.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I’ve seen this suggested before and I’m still not in favor of it. While I agree with and understand what people are saying, I still feel that it’s rarely an issue. People who are selfish enough to stay dead will usually end up getting more of their own players killed. There are times when mass ressing happens, yes. And I definitely think something should be done about the time someone is able to stay dead for people who like to spy. But otherwise I just don’t see it as much of a problem.
I know that when an enemy zerg is attacking a tower for example, and I kill a few enemies with an arrow cart, I’ll immediately spam that dead enemy with a ton of arrows the second I see people trying to res them and bam, free kills because they usually can’t evade fast enough. Just take advantage of it instead of watching it happen. When someone, or a few people, are trying to res a buddy run over and stop them.

You’re not going to kill a zerg with that AC. And when they take your tower, they will rez everyone, then proceed to the next tower at full strength.

With a no-rezzing-dead mechanic (even OOC), the zerg gets smaller out every time it loses a man. It may take one tower, but it’ll be smaller for the next. I think that would make the game far more interesting.

mcarswell.3768:

just requiring you to be out of combat to res a finished player would be enough and would make a huge difference imo.

Good idea! That would still let you rez your friends after you’ve won, so they can collect their bags. Yet, it would make zergs easier to handle.

+1!

mcarswell.3768:

just requiring you to be out of combat to res a finished player would be enough and would make a huge difference imo.

^^ This, and also I seem to remember at some point there was a force respawn option for dead player bodies on (F) just like stomp but for dead players. that was golden, because even if you kill them they can still report enemy troop movement.
can’t remember if this was in sPVP or WvW

I wonder why they removed it ?
this would be golden, kill the scout, force respawn him, move your team in, enemy has no idea how many of you there are

Agreed with both suggestions:

-Make dead players respawn in a timer or dc them.
-Make either resurrecting available during out of combat or remove it entirely.

If you’re so outnumbered or being beaten so bad that they are ressing fully dead players you had no chance anyway.

^^^ i don’t think that’s necessarily true. there’s a fine line. sure sometimes, that may be the case. but sometimes, not.

when smaller groups are able to beat larger groups, one of the reasons it’s because you’re able to slowly whittle your opponent’s group down.

either or, what i cited was just ONE example of how the ressing fully dead mechanic affects gameplay.

Dinks.2478:

If you’re so outnumbered or being beaten so bad that they are ressing fully dead players you had no chance anyway.

Have you played this game? Many WvW blobs are just that, lots of people aimlessly following a person because they have a blue dorito over their head. I have been in many 10-15 man teams just mowing through 30-40 man blobs, downing/killing many of them, without losing a single one of our own, however, by the time we are making our pass back, 90% of their players are back up and over time can wear you down. We are pretty good at splitting them up making it harder to res full dead and have wiped many groups like this, but after a point it becomes impossible to kill them off because of sheer numbers and the aoe cap being on the larger teams side. And if it is impossible to wipe a team that size then it will not hurt anything because once they wipe our smaller team they can res their dead. Or, if we are right and wiping a team that much bigger than you is possible, then it will make having tactics a important role in WvW and making smaller guild teams and havoc teams FAR more effective.

gurhulk.7953:

the dead people spying is an annoying tactic too, your dead you can’t see anything. I say auto rezz the dead player after 5 seconds at the closest waypoint.

5 second would be too extreme. i would suggest 3 minutes, if not rezzed within 3 minutes after death, the player is auto-spawned at the spawn point.

this will also partly resolve the rezzing-through-gate issue because if there is someone purposely die at the gate, most likely he/she is a mesmer. we would then only need to assign someone to monitor that person for 3 minutes only.

I absolutely agree. I think being able to res players from full death in WvW should be totally removed. It makes death meaningless when someone you just killed is resed by 5 people in 5 seconds.

Requiring players to be out of combat to revive from full death would be an alright fix (at least resing would be impossible within AC range), but removing hard resing completely would be preferred in my opinion. I don’t think enemies should be allowed to res just because you can’t pressure them 100% of the time. That is an unrealistic expectation. If your keep is being attacked by a superior force and you push out and get 5 kills, that should mean something. They shouldn’t just be insta-revived as soon as you have to retreat.

But something needs to be done. It’s often impossible to win outnumbered fights just because some players will quickly res the dead while the rest keep you and your allies occupied. I go through extraordinary lengths not to die, meanwhile other people who play badly (and frankly have earned their demise) don’t get punished for it at all just because they have 50 allies to instantly res them. It just takes away a lot from combat when death is so meaningless.

mcarswell.3768:

just requiring you to be out of combat to res a finished player would be enough and would make a huge difference imo.

this…in game where you have to costantly move to overcome the dps of a lager group the possibility of ressing from full dead is bad game design…this mean if this will get disabled… you can move ahead after killing good number of ppl without worring ….“will they ress and come back again?”
this will make this game also a matter of quality not only numbers…giving a chance to a smaller group to wipe a bigger one.

give this to us…you will see where vizuna end…

Gilburt.9146:

I absolutely agree. I think being able to res players from full death in WvW should be totally removed. It makes death meaningless when someone you just killed is resed by 5 people in 5 seconds.

Requiring players to be out of combat to revive from full death would be an alright fix (at least resing would be impossible within AC range), but removing hard resing completely would be preferred in my opinion. I don’t think enemies should be allowed to res just because you can’t pressure them 100% of the time. That is an unrealistic expectation. If your keep is being attacked by a superior force and you push out and get 5 kills, that should mean something. They shouldn’t just be insta-revived as soon as you have to retreat.

But something needs to be done. It’s often impossible to win outnumbered fights just because some players will quickly res the dead while the rest keep you and your allies occupied. I go through extraordinary lengths not to die, meanwhile other people who play badly (and frankly have earned their demise) don’t get punished for it at all just because they have 50 allies to instantly res them. It just takes away a lot from combat when death is so meaningless.

This is a very good idea. Been typed many times on this forum.
Instead we get more farming mats for ascended junk.

OOC revive for the dead, slower revives and more incentive to respawn (by making life harder for people who just got revived…).

“Defeated characters remain at zero health until the process completes, at which point they are restored to 25% of their maximum health.” Change this to 10%

“After revival, targets become invulnerable for one second.” replace that with 4 points of downed penalty (insta-death instead of downed).

That way they would have a higher repair bill and keep more people busy when they try to res.

I’d really really like to see a dev response on this.

Was sitting here and thinking of all of the things that removing resing from WvW would fix and I really do think it could make a huge difference.

-Support roles would be more important than ever.
-Assassin style gameplay would actually have a point.
-Keep defenses would be a lot more harrowing with siege actually being able to thin the herd besieging them
-Small group play would increase to stop the Zerg from regrouping

Really, where’s the downside?

Rezzing fully dead players makes strong servers stronger. Currently skill is trumped by numbers since a larger team can reconstitute themselves almost immediately. A small skill group who can easily kill twice their number would be far more inclined to jump on a big zerg since they could easily wipe half a zerg leaving them vulnerable to further attack. Right now the only option is to get an even bigger zerg or assemble a big enough skill group.

Currently if a server cannot wipe a group or run them off it might as well not have attacked it.

Kadin.2356:

I’m sure it’s been suggested time and again but in WvW it’s the ability to res finished players that makes zerg’s so powerful. If you were actually able to cull the herd with gorilla tactics it would really shake things up.

Reason I bring this up is that now as this is an option in custom PvP arenas I imagine the hard part of coding is mostly done. I mean what harm could it do just to test it out? If it’s horrible just disable it again.

No. Its fine the way it is, you rezz quicker while out of combat, very slowly while in combat. I would like to have it adjusted though so that healing power stat affects it more while in combat and have low healing power people rez even slower then they do now.

Other 3 rez adjustments I would like to see are rally mechanic rework, so that only 1 player may rally on 1 killed target, and lower the damage of downed skills unless traited or buffed via downed food etc. Also would like to adjust warrior banner mechanic, specifically on keep / tower lords, give them an ICD on how often they can be rezzed via banner, or rezzed within a certain period of time period.

Currently, there is no danger for a zerg to move farther and farther from its spawn point as long as its bigger than opponents’ zergs.

With zero rezzing of fully dead, the zerg risks being slowly whittled down in size when too far from spawn. I think this would allow for much more interesting strategic and tatical gameplay.

Interesting ideas.

Should the res be disabled all the time or only in certain situations (e.g. if 20+ allies are within 1000 range) is also something which should be considered. And what about Rally? Would it stay unaffected?

Blackhat.4016:

Interesting ideas.

Should the res be disabled all the time or only in certain situations (e.g. if 20+ allies are within 1000 range) is also something which should be considered. And what about Rally? Would it stay unaffected?

I think they should remove rezzing completely from WvW. I would actually leave downed state in the game but change it so that a player cannot be rallied from a death only brought up from a skill or another player.

Straegen.2938:

Blackhat.4016:

Interesting ideas.

Should the res be disabled all the time or only in certain situations (e.g. if 20+ allies are within 1000 range) is also something which should be considered. And what about Rally? Would it stay unaffected?

I think they should remove rezzing completely from WvW. I would actually leave downed state in the game but change it so that a player cannot be rallied from a death only brought up from a skill or another player.

Actually I think 1 Rally per kill is fine.

This mechanic would work in PvE as well.

It’s the whole “we finish one guy and 6 people rally somewhere 50 yards away” that makes the system so contrived an frustrating.

-No resurrecting while in combat
-Slightly slower reviving from downed-state with multiple players.
-1 Rally per kill (dodgeball rules)

Those changes combined would do a great deal for WvW and reduce the snowballing effect to a more acceptable level.

I certainly don’t want to see rezzing in combat discouraged or removed. That’s the best way to get more of the opponents down. See 2-5 of them ball at one point to rez a teammate, drop some heavy AoE and you got 2-5 more downed and dying.
Not to mention that those people rezzing one are sacrificing their entire dps output for the whole duration of the rez, that’s several seconds!
Well, I suppose a thief/other single target professions would want to see rezzing go as they don’t benefit from opponents doing something dumb in the middle of the battle, because they are not so good against groups. But every profession can’t be without their own pitfalls.

I agree with this TO A POINT. When a fight is done I think you should be able to be rezzed… like in combat no rezzing. But 0 rezzing I disagree with because what happens in wvw happens in Dungeons and well, you need to rez in dungeons.

No things like this make Gw2 more unique. Learn to adapt.

This is a great function. If you do not want a player rezzed, then stop it from happening. No one wants to spend extra time running across the map, when a friendly can just re spawn them.

Changing this would be a bad idea. Actually now that I think about it, I feel you should be spammed by gold sellers just for suggesting it.

Pluses: It really would allow smaller groups to make a difference and open up a whole new realm of possibilities on breaking up zergs.

Minuses: You really want me to run back every time I die from a waypoint?

COMPROMISE: You port to the nearest walled control point (castle, keep, tower) you own. It breaks up flow but, that way the run wouldn’t be too far (unless you are deep in enemy territory). I thought about adding camps but you could be griefed too easily.

coglin.1867:

No one wants to spend extra time running across the map, when a friendly can just re spawn them.

Sucks for the small man groups who are wiped out by a zerg then huh. Seriously if you are good enough at playing then don’t die. It shouldn’t be hard when your with 40 other friendlies. Then you wouldn’t have to worry about re-spawning. Removing the ability to res finished player would be a small wonderful change to this game and would add a whole new layer strategy to the game (which this game mode needs more of) while nerfing the zerg a bit (zerg’s are what anet want to nerf anyways right?).

so…what we have to do to make this happen? start to QQ on 20 pages on thread before someone start to think this may be a good idea?
kitten gonna bump this thread till a dev write here..

strifer.7986:

so…what we have to do to make this happen? start to QQ on 20 pages on thread before someone start to think this may be a good idea?
kitten gonna bump this thread till a dev write here..

They did actually respond to a thread about a similar topic called “Rally – Dodgeball rules”.

They said they were interested in exploring the idea, but nothing ever came of it.

I guess when the Gem store is your main source of income designing fluff is a higher priority than fixing core game-play issues like this.

I know so many players that have moved on or are on hiatus because of the WvW “zergfest”. This would go a long long way to getting those guys back into the game again.

Remove rally.
Remove stomping.
Remove rez from dead in combat.

Or just remove downstate altogether. That would solve everything.

Johje Holan.4607:

Remove rally.
Remove stomping.
Remove rez from dead in combat.

Or just remove downstate altogether. That would solve everything.

I don’t really mind the downed state, I think it adds a bit of tactics deciding to spend the time mid-fight to stomp or not, but that’s just my preference. Putting a cap on rally or removing rally altogether would be nice too. So many commanders running around untagged for fear of attracting “rally bot” players. The ability to res dead players really does have to be disabled, the current mechanics are just untenable.

The can’t res from dead in combat is a great idea. I can think of sneaky ways to get it done in big fights around the edges but it’s a good idea.

Think about how many times you were killed in an assault or castle/keep defence when your server won. Now picture yourself running to catch up every time. Do you really think that’s fun?

Can’t res from dead at all would get rid of a lot of the more casual people who don’t want to have to run all the way across the map.

This allows smaller, organized groups to legitimately thin a larger zerg’s ranks with good play rather than just get rolled eventually because the zerg can hard res anyone that dies. I thought allowing this kind of play was part of Anet’s design philosophy, but I guess we need more mastery lines instead.

Oh. it might also convince those people that sit around dead inside hot zones hoping they somehow get rezzed to just release and run back to the fight.

Kadin.2356:

I’m sure it’s been suggested time and again but in WvW it’s the ability to res finished players that makes zerg’s so powerful. If you were actually able to cull the herd with gorilla tactics it would really shake things up.

Reason I bring this up is that now as this is an option in custom PvP arenas I imagine the hard part of coding is mostly done. I mean what harm could it do just to test it out? If it’s horrible just disable it again.

you mean guerilla tactics? because I don’t know what a gorilla tactic is; maybe a single Warrior just going on a rampage or something?

I just want downed state removed from wvw. Keep it in spvp and pve only. It feels like an exploit to me a ele can come out die mist back into the tower over and over and over again. Everybody else also has some lame #2 skill that keeps them alive so the zerg can rez them. If you won’t remove downed state get rid of all the interrupts knockbacks mists and teleports from downed state.

If they just get rid of rallying from deaths it would fix the system. This is where the true power of a zerg comes from. Your small group vs their larger group: you managed to down equal numbers to yours but they got a few of yours down. Since yours die first to their remaining numbers their whole group rezzes back. It gives instant momentum to the bigger group.

Stopping to rez a downed player or stopping to stomp is a tactical decision you have to make. A lot of times this means me dpsing the guy instead of stomping because his corpse gets aoed.

Rally really helps small groups (or can) if they lose one key player and need to quickly get them back up.

Why not start by not allowing rez for defeated toons as a first step. I suspect that is all that would be needed.

I also suspect that there would be less bellyaching if you could only PORT in to a single waypoint but would rally at the closest walled structure you owned (castle, keep or tower).

The problem with the rally that I see it is that it shifts the balance of engaged numbers to the side that starts winning first. Let’s see a scenario:

Your 5 man group comes up against a 15 man zerg. Not too uncommon right? You expect to be able to use your skill to beat that group. The groups clash. In your opening rotation you manage to down 8 of the enemy players. They manage to pick off your elementalist due to her low health. Their remaining players continue to concentrate on her for the kill and before you’re able to start spiking the downed players she dies and rallys all of them. You’re now 4v15 instead of 4v7. You have no chance because of the rally system.

Same scenario, now the rally system is gone. Your ele dies. Your 4 other players are able to successfully stomp 4 of theirs now that they didn’t rally. The other 4 die to aoes. You’re 4v7 instead and now you can more effectively heal up for the next crash. After heals and re-empower you’re now able to down 4 more of them while weathering their damage (most of which you killed in the first clash… mmm all them zerker specs). Your group wins the fight due to skill instead of the enemy 15 getting to come back to full power from killing your one elementalist.

That scenario is what plays out on a server who is constantly out manned (dragonbrand ). Your group is inevitably smaller than the enemy group so you have to rely on your build quality and class composition to give you a win. The problem is that the quality is seldom reliable and you end up with “rally bots”, or players who down easily. Their existence and deaths empower the enemy zergs far more effectively than battlefield rezzes ever do and ensure that the larger zerg wins the fight all the time. If we take out the ability to rally off PK then we take out a huge chunk of momentum from an enemy zerg. This makes fighting with tactics and skill more effective than sheer numbers.

Sure your key player gets saved by rallies a lot. I know as commander i’ve been saved by the rally system so often it isn’t funny. Take away that rally system and now I have to apply stronger tactics to win instead of crash first and hope for a rez when my thieves kill their squishy up level elementalist.

Not rezzing dead unless out of combat would only make Stealthers the required rezzers, and how are you going to handle Ranger ability to rezz by Spirit?

Also, the epic massive keep battles we have would be a thing of the past, siege on inners would rule the day, keep battles would fall to the way side completely. The massive choke point issues, coupled with double downed players would completely decimate keep taking more so than it is. Especially if they leave banner rezzing of keep lords alone.

Not being able to rez dowed players would cause more problems than it fixed.

Porting to the nearest owned keep would cause suicide porting. Jump off a cliff for a quick port.

Biar and Lake would be a nightmare to defend for a homeland. Invader has the upper hand.

Southgate Bay and Hills would be similar not as bad but without WP in either. It’s a quicker run from closest Boarder Waypoint.