Guild Wars 2

This is the easiest thing that Anet can do in the immediate future to stop zerging.

Remove both the big orange swords, and the gray swords over contested objectives. These were training wheels that were needed in the early part of the game, but have outlived their usefulness.

If a zerg cannot rely on the map for its reconnaissance, it will be forced to split itself up to be sure it has forces in various areas to respond quickly when intel does come in.

Small groups will be important again in all tiers because without the swords it will be far more possible to take objectives without being discovered. Small groups will also be needed for reconaissance. With more small groups criss-crossing the map, there will be more opportunity for small group PvP instead of zerg vs zerg warfare.

To be sure there are still other issues encouraging zergs like map design, the Downed State, no Trinity, and the 5-man limit on AoE (to name but a few).

But, removing the swords is the quick fix we need to stop the hemorrhage of players because of boredom.

IMO zerging is the point of WvW. If you dont like that, there’s pvp

No. Taking those away will make ninja caping so easy.

And even if you take them away, it will favor zergs more. They can now move along unoticed. And will take everything without warning.

I completely agree with this. My guild runs in small groups hitting supply camps and defending enemy reinforcement routes. It’s STUPID that the orange swords show up when there are “a total of 5 people” fighting each other. That means that if a party of 5 attacks a single person the orange swords show up on the map and the enemies 30 man zerg shows up immediately.

Yesterday, our group of 5 were demolishing enemy groups that were double our size but then all the enemies in the area start showing up because of the stupid swords. So the bad players get demolished but end up winning in the long run due to huge zergs showing up.

Please remove these swords or raise the player count required to trigger them to about 15-20. Leave the white contested swords, though.

FhakE.9063:

IMO zerging is the point of WvW. If you dont like that, there’s pvp

ROFL.

EvilSardine.9635:

FhakE.9063:

IMO zerging is the point of WvW. If you dont like that, there’s pvp

ROFL.

Problem sir?

FhakE.9063:

EvilSardine.9635:

FhakE.9063:

IMO zerging is the point of WvW. If you dont like that, there’s pvp

ROFL.

Problem sir?

I don’t think laughing implies a problem.
I think it implies that he believes your post is as ridiculous as I did when I read it. o;

There is a lot more to WvW than 5v5 combat,
The only way sPvP will help is if the ONLY thing you want out of WvW is small group combat.
If you want to do any of the other things that small groups like to do (Recon, reinforcement interference, ninja-ing camps and towers) then sPvP will do absolutely nothing for you.

The point of WvW is to take objectives, not to zerg for a karma train.

FhakE.9063:

IMO zerging is the point of Kaineng. If you dont like that, there’s pvp

I thought that is what he was amused by… maybe not.

EvilSardine.9635:

I completely agree with this. My guild runs in small groups hitting supply camps and defending enemy reinforcement routes. It’s STUPID that the orange swords show up when there are “a total of 5 people” fighting each other. That means that if a party of 5 attacks a single person the orange swords show up on the map and the enemies 30 man zerg shows up immediately.

Yesterday, our group of 5 were demolishing enemy groups that were double our size but then all the enemies in the area start showing up because of the stupid swords. So the bad players get demolished but end up winning in the long run due to huge zergs showing up.

Please remove these swords or raise the player count required to trigger them to about 15-20. Leave the white contested swords, though.

FhakE.9063:

IMO zerging is the point of WvW. If you dont like that, there’s pvp

ROFL.

If only they had a setting that would make it so a party of 5 could play against equal numbers and not be run over by a zerg.
/rolls eyes

@OP
This is a horrible idea. It would make it so zergs would now be able to ninja cap stuff, Towers, Keeps nothing would be safe. Fights would never happen because all 3 zergs would be running in circles capping stuff behind each other.

The swords bring the forces together to fight. That is the point of WvW. That is why arrow carts and Trebs and such can hit 50 people.

Are small fights fun also? Yes. They can still be had and small groups still have a purpose. Holding/flipping camps and ninja’ing towers. As well as disrupting the enemy zerg. sPvP is for small groups to fight fair numbers. WvW is for big battles to be waged and small groups to skirt around the outside causing problems.

I think take them away because I think scouting is a fun and important part of any strategic MMO/game. The map is already pretty small and the swords just make knowing where to go so easy mode.

It is all part of dumbing down game play, a terrible trend over the past 10 years.

FhakE.9063:

EvilSardine.9635:

FhakE.9063:

IMO zerging is the point of WvW. If you dont like that, there’s pvp

ROFL.

Problem sir?

This is so true however i think it would be better if you couldn’t res dead players because what happens if you loose a fight? you’re enemies didn’t loose a thing.
And i think its stupid that siege weapons disappear on its own does it really take that many kilobytes on arenanets server? because if that is not the problem then i think it would be better if the only way to get rid of siege weapon was to destroy it.

ekleenex.1654:

FhakE.9063:

IMO zerging is the point of Kaineng. If you dont like that, there’s other servers.

I thought that is what he was amused by… maybe not.

There. I fixed it up a bit further for you.

Remove white swords, and increase orange swords to 10+ players only.
This will encourage more tactful gameplay with the use of scouts etc a lot more.
Also remove waypoints.

EvilSardine.9635:

I completely agree with this. My guild runs in small groups hitting supply camps and defending enemy reinforcement routes. It’s STUPID that the orange swords show up when there are “a total of 5 people” fighting each other. That means that if a party of 5 attacks a single person the orange swords show up on the map and the enemies 30 man zerg shows up immediately.

Yesterday, our group of 5 were demolishing enemy groups that were double our size but then all the enemies in the area start showing up because of the stupid swords. So the bad players get demolished but end up winning in the long run due to huge zergs showing up.

Please remove these swords or raise the player count required to trigger them to about 15-20. Leave the white contested swords, though.

FhakE.9063:

IMO zerging is the point of WvW. If you dont like that, there’s pvp

ROFL.

I think it’s kind of smart to have it 4 or more on a single target throws up swords. if people don’t want swords up, they need to act accordingly. no more than 4 peeps on a target, and if you get into a tussle, you spread out. otherwise, swords.

The “crosshair” swords on the property itself is a fair indication to defenders. to go look. When you are dealing with populations that are not balanced, removal of those indicators will favor the zergs, and more than likely the server who boasts the largest population.

When you are dealing with one opponent with 3:1 population over the second place team for the match, 3rd place doesnt stand a chance in hell defending against either if they need a minimum of one person at every location they own.

I also laughed at the all there is to WvW is zerging comment. 1. to be wrong. 2. to think he is so right that if you prefer to think you need to go play another format.

Just because you want to be led around by a leash and spam attacks without thought does not mean everyone want’s that. If you think there isn’t room in WvW for both playstyles, you may want to consider preschool again. Zerging offers things that small man, roaming, turtleing, defending, can’t get done. But by no means is it the be all end all of WvW. Otherwise, WvW would be a lag free field that we could all just run into and kill people over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

Car doors are only for getting in the car, not for getting out. If you use a car door to get out of a car, you do not know how to use a car door. therefore you should either go get a motorcycle, or a moped, not drive a car.. FACT

If you’re not already scouting orange swords before committing and reporting enemy numbers/positions to the rest of the server, you’re wasting resources. Crossed swords are irrelevant.

Oozo.7856:

There. I fixed it up a bit further for you.

Thanks! You know what, I like you… I’m going to take it a step further…

FhakE.9063:

IMO WM is the point of kittenaineng. If you dont like that, there’s other servers.

Agree we should be relying on our server community to spread the word. Many of us old time players recognize Dark Age of Camelot (classic) as still the best Implementations of WvW to date even though it is over a decade old. If the graphic engine was over hauled I would still be playing, it’s that good. Here’s a few of it’s finer points.

No server cap yeah it got laggy but those battles were still epic. Anet need to work on this there has to be a better way than putting these low population caps on. Perhaps GW was made to pretty and they lost play ability because of it.

Guilds took keeps and would be notified if it was under attack or there guards encountered enemy troops. That guild would notify the community of the attack and we would meet the invasion. This was half the fun. Let loose the Frolic.

Large maps with keeps spread out areas designed for pve with the potential danger of pvp.

Full community involvement to open special dungeons like Darkness Falls. Pvers may not want to wvw but they were happy when the WvW players opened the Dungeon for them.

Underground paths to infiltrate enemy territory. Many an epic battle played in those caves.

It still amazes me that in over ten years no one has come close including Mythic to creating a WvW system as good as Dark Age. There is much to like about GW2 but it’s not going to keep people over the long run. Anet go learn from your elders.

As to zergs it’s called an Army they are a reality nothing stopping you from running in small groups. If you confront a zerg don’t expect 5 to take on 40 and win it’s not your fight. You should be taking points behind the lines which of course would be much more practical on a larger map.

Ohai.8346:

Remove white swords, and increase orange swords to 10+ players only.
This will encourage more tactful gameplay with the use of scouts etc a lot more.
Also remove waypoints.

I would also like this to happen, but lets be honest Anet have already made there intentions clear in that they want WvWvW to be zerg orientated

Ohai.8346:

Remove white swords, and increase orange swords to 10+ players only.
This will encourage more tactful gameplay with the use of scouts etc a lot more.
Also remove waypoints.

I don’t understand how increasing the number of people to create orange swords makes things more strategic. You have made it easier to hide your numbers by 6 more people. 9 people .. 9 rams… could beat on a door for a minute or two and take almost anything out before anyone even knew.

Totally zergy.

I don’t think this will really solve the problem of zerging and could potentially exacerbate it.

I think zerging is just something we’re going to have to live with. Some people genuinely enjoy the laggtastic, cluster-kitten, culling-fest that accompanies zerging, whilst others, like myself, do not.

Just ignore the herd, find a small group and focus on small group objectives. Whenever I see a commander icon, I completely ignore it unless my server has the outmanned buff. Also, not all servers rely purely on zerging. I recently switched from Desolation (tier 1/2) to Gandara (tier 4/5) and reliance on zerging was significantly less and therefore far more to my liking.

So you’ll then end up having players perm “scouting” (aka sitting there getting bored to death) in keeps and towers to announce enemy forces arriving.

Not that this doesn’t happen already…

I don’t mind the orange swords. They force you to play smart when dealing with larger groups and still allow to ninja stuff if you play it right. Removing them would make things too easy.

Might want to ask for the “iWin” button at the same time

This would only work with a limited number of objectives. Any objective that has a way point would still let the zerg know what keep, tower etc may be under attack as the way point would be contested.

hoschi.8693:

So you’ll then end up having players perm “scouting” (aka sitting there getting bored to death) in keeps and towers to announce enemy forces arriving.

Not that this doesn’t happen already…

I don’t mind the orange swords. They force you to play smart when dealing with larger groups and still allow to ninja stuff if you play it right. Removing them would make things too easy.

Might want to ask for the “iWin” button at the same time

I mentioned a solution from a ten year old game. Guilds claim keeps when the keep guards meet enemy they notify the guild the guild calls the realm to arms. No need to sit in a keep waiting because that is boring. This would encourage guilds to claim and creates another reason to communicate helping to build community.

This change would isolate pugs and make WvW even more unwelcoming to new players.

removing swords will not stop zerging. It will just make countering zergs a little less easy. People tend to want to take the easy route. Running with a massive zerg is easy and doesn’t require much thinking. I personally dislike zerging but understand why it exists. Also anyone that thinks that they know the answer and it is something as simple as “remove swords”, or “remove the aoe cap” doesn’t really know anything. If the answer was something that simple it would be implemented already. Do you think ANET has not thought of these things? The fact is that these solutions that people keep bringing up over and over will not stop zerging. On top of that they will cause other negative effects to the game.

I think white swords should go away. Allowing nodes/ninja’s to be possibly more successful.

While at the same time keeping orange swords, so people know where fights are going on.

The system is fine as is. It would also be nice if the guards would actually shout something like, we’re under attack, like an npc who runs to you if there is an event.

Thrumdi.9216:

Remove both the big orange swords, and the gray swords over contested objectives.

I agree!

This is an example of players always watching their UI and not what’s going on in-game. I prefer to see visual indicators in the game-world rather than the UI (i.e. black smoke in the distance to indicate that enemies are inside a keep).

Also, this belongs in suggestions.

None of the swords should go a way. For full servers that might work because they have the numbers to place scouts everywhere. For servers with smaller populations it will be a bad thing. The only way for them to react in a reasonable time is to monitor the map frequently for those hints and if in a tier is a population imbalance it will skew the score even more to the higher populated server. This Idea might be nice for the top 2 tiers but not for the rest.

I also agree that removing swords would just make zergs more effective at taking keeps and towers. The disadvantages of zerging is often on the commanders shoulders to be as stealthy as possible before being discovered, its difficult when a lot of random’s join up the karma train and consistently pop orange swords to spoil the zergs offensive on a fully upgraded keep.

I think taking some notes out of DaoC’s book and enhancing guild involvement is the next step for WvWvW.

1. Incorporate Guild Chat and pop-up boxes indicating when a guild claimed structure is under attack.

2. Increase rewards for defending / especially as the individuals hold out for longer hours, repel timers reward exponentially, of course this would have to be implemented in such a way that people don’t just harvest the rewards.

3. Introduce new rewards for answering a call to action. for e.g. if a guild structure is under attack and your guildmates decide to abandon their fractal/dungeon to jump in and end up successfully defending it, give addition defensive rewards. Maybe have a way to introduce how this reward can be shared with pugs/militia/other guilds etc as well.

4. Introduce new blueprints for anti-zerg for e.g. a piece of siege that can be built as a ‘sentry/scout’ but it can’t be built inside structures, it would be required to be built on open ground and will have a set radius that is able to notify the user who placed said siege of enemy movement. Have a decent supply requirement on it 70+. Yes, its inspired from MOBA titles.

Another thing would be to add another type of structural upgrade to towers and keeps similar to cannons and oil.

5. Defensive reward for first response i.e. first person to enter empty defensive structure and attempt defence (use supply to build siege, use cannon or oil etc)

6. Create rewards for applying boons on Dolyaks (swiftness and other boons)

The best fights I have had have often been back and forth fighting over the inner of a fully upgraded keep (whether offensively or defensively). The amount of tactics required when two experienced guilds are fighting each other over Hills Keep for e.g. is always enjoyable.

The game needs to move towards its namesake which is guild wars 2, it needs to encourage small to medium sized guilds to work together and improve their combat effectiveness via spec builds and teamwork. It needs to reward this. More direct involvement of Guild’s is what the game needs.

Last i checked throughout warfare in history you have needed lots of units to take oput major objectives, until recently because of such crazy tactical warheads and stuff

Did you ever hear of 5 Romans taking a castle stronghold?
or 5 British soldiers lead by Richard the Lionheart trying to take Jerusalem?

Obviously this isn’t even remotely close to real life, but the entire point of WvW is large scale battles…just cuz people zerg doesn’t mean it’s just mindless, there are tons of guilds out there who field 20+ which most seem to consider a “zerg” but each and every one of them is very tactically smart, knows how to play well, how to work on gaining the lead, etc

It’s just dumb to assume Zerging has 0 purpose in WvW and it ALL needs to go to small man teams. I have personally lead small teams in doing stuff large zergs may not have been able to so they are perfectly viable

I have also lead larger teams that smaller teams could not have done.

It’s warfare, numbers matter in war just as tactical thinking and smart strategy counts also. Scouts and small man teams r JUST as viable if not a majorly important part of winning a match up.

Commander tag (lord of the zerglings) says hi.

On the one hand, it’d make it a bit more immersive to actually have to place scouts/sentries/etc around the map.

On the other hand, sitting around waiting for things to happen is boring as sin, and it makes the game’s in-built defenses even more useless. +Guard upgrades at camps are supposed to make that speedbump bigger, but if there aren’t any swords you don’t even know they’re being driven over.

I could see it if people were more happy to play defensive roles, but without some kind of incentive to do so, I can’t really see it happening.

I partially agree with OP. The idea is to implement a realistic fog of war, which is a legitimate strategic reason to not zerg. I think removing orange swords may be worth considering. However I think swords on structures should remain. There are NPC scouts there and in any RTS game, you are warned when your buildings are under attack.

Removing swords only helps out zergs. If you’re not disciplined enough to prevent orange swords appearing at inconvenient moments, then you should be punished for it.

As for those small groups constantly whining for fair fights, if only there was some sort of setting of PvP that was structured for a select number of people to fight against another select number. A structured PvP, if you will.

pixieish.9627:

Removing swords only helps out zergs. If you’re not disciplined enough to prevent orange swords appearing at inconvenient moments, then you should be punished for it.

As for those small groups constantly whining for fair fights, if only there was some sort of setting of PvP that was structured for a select number of people to fight against another select number. A structured PvP, if you will.

I am someone who prefers small man roaming groups. That said, I won’t knock on the zergs as that’s how people want to play.. I’m not going to wine about zergs as much as I can’t see the fun in being in one, though I do join in for a zerg assault now and then.

But I am REALLY tired of this cut/paste argument from people like you. We DON’T want to play SPVP.. Tiny maps with a set 5/8 people is NOT the same as roaming around the larger maps of WvW having small scale skirmishes.. Try to understand that’s what some people enjoy.

Small groups can play a large part in a successful map control anyways. From taking over supply camps without taking away the large forces from the assaults/defense to stopping reinforcements from reaching an assault/defense. To each his own, and every style has a place in WvW.

Some people just wish there was more mechanics that promoted small scale groups (without eliminating zerging), just so that we could enjoy what WE like more often as well, since we would get to engage in more of the battles we like. I can’t see how anyone would think something is wrong with that.

tom.7468:

FhakE.9063:

EvilSardine.9635:

FhakE.9063:

IMO zerging is the point of WvW. If you dont like that, there’s pvp

ROFL.

Problem sir?

This is so true however i think it would be better if you couldn’t res dead players because what happens if you loose a fight? you’re enemies didn’t loose a thing.
And i think its stupid that siege weapons disappear on its own does it really take that many kilobytes on arenanets server? because if that is not the problem then i think it would be better if the only way to get rid of siege weapon was to destroy it.

they disappear to keep things balanced, not to free some kilobytes on the server. supplies are relatively unlimited, blueprints are as easy to get, if you hold an objective for too long with non-disappearing siege, it will eventually become unconquerable.

Take them away? sure why not, kind of a nuisance

Oozo.7856:

FhakE.9063:

IMO zerging is the point of higher tier servers. If you dont like that, there’s the tier 8 servers.

There. I fixed it up a bit further for you.

There we go. I fixed it for you.

It’s funny how people throw around the word “zerg” as if it’s a bad word. And it’s even more funny when people complain that X server is the “zergiest” considering *the higher the tier, the stronger, bigger, and more tactical the “zergs” become.

Makes you wonder why the government doesn’t adapt to the “zerg” tactics….oh wait that’s what the ARMY does! xD

I actually want it the other way: show large groups of people (>25?) on the map, with a colored flag representing their server. Doesn’t have to be by default, it could be a tower upgrade (binoculars?) or something.

This way, new people entering the map can easily see where the ally and enemy frontlines are.

It would only favor the servers with a large population, if the swords were removed.
When you are outmanned, you don’t have enough people to watch the towers, and you have to rely on looking at the map.

FhakE.9063:

IMO zerging is the point of WvW. If you dont like that, there’s pvp

I agree with you, WvW was made for zergs to flourish.
I think too many people expect WvW to be balanced like sPvP which is not the case.

Worst idea ever, if you don’t like zergs go play pvp.

Zergs don’t care about swords, they just goto the next objective. Take away god buff from supply camps. Let a small group take them whenever, hide, let zerg take it, then retake it when zerg leaves in 30 seconds. That will force the zerg to split up to defend.

Also, swords only appear if 5 or more people attack. You are a zerg yourself complaining about a bigger zerg.

Any non zerg will know only to have 3 people attack.

Very few people in this thread realize that you can successfully cap a tower or keep without causing swords. There are certain things that cause them to pop up on the map. A well disciplined group can knock a gate down on a garrison completely unnoticed, without swords appearing on the map.

No one these days takes the time to study and understand the full of things. They just ask for changes because they don’t know how it works.

Maybe make orange swords on player vs player fighting and not npcs?

Otherwise, do what smart ninja groups do an run with a group that knows enough not to attack npcs with more than 4 people or hit walls/doors and pop orange swords

leave the swords.
as a tier 8 player, my nightly/morningly x v x (x<5, and thats the whole MAP) would be stupid. i cant have a player at each point to tell me someone is attacking. white swords are often enough to save a camp when noticed early. and the orange swords are even more helpful, because then i know to not bother with that camp when im alone.

Swords are fine as they are, what needs to be removed is all the stupid npc mobs all over the map, good example would be the wolves outside cragtop.