The idea to remove the waypoint upgrade from the keeps has been toss around many times and the developer even acknowledged it. So, it’s something that will probably happen at some point.
The main reason for removing the waypoint is to split the zerg. If you remove the waypoints the zerg can’t cover every places with only 1 group so it has to either split or to lose everything. Waypoint are what make it possible for 1 big zerg to cover all the maps. But let’s not discuss the waypoints.
What I wonder is :
When we remove the waypoint upgrade, what should be put as a new upgrade to replace it?
Removing waypoints would also help balance match ups. As it is, the weakest server usually doesn’t have waypoints in any of their keeps, making farming them easy for both stronger servers. On the flip side, the strongest server usually has all the waypoints, allowing them to stay aggressive in enemy BL’s and waypoint in to defend if they need to.
If they replaced it, they could make keeps like towers and change the upgrade to build oil —> cannons --> mortars. That said, I liked how waypoints were a very strong defensive upgrade, so maybe they could add in something that encourages defensive play. Maybe an upgrade that, say, drains 1000 supply but applies structural invulnerability to keep walls/gates for 2 minutes or something. This allows you to get reinforcements in and build some defensive siege, and would help prevent strong server karma trains through BL’s.
That said, I liked how waypoints were a very strong defensive upgrade, so maybe they could add in something that encourages defensive play. Maybe an upgrade that, say, drains 1000 supply but applies structural invulnerability to keep walls/gates for 2 minutes or something.
You mean something you can buy whenever you want and it’s instantly built ? This will get abused too much.
Few would give a crap about hills, bay or garri if they did this. The only reason they are strategically important is the waypoints. Holding them for points is secondary to that. A lot of servers wouldn’t even bother trying to hold their BL since the run to the bottom half would be mostly pointless since they could lock down their entry points on BLs easier.
Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
Few would give a crap about hills, bay or garri if they did this. The only reason they are strategically important is the waypoints. Holding them for points is secondary to that. A lot of servers wouldn’t even bother trying to hold their BL since the run to the bottom half would be mostly pointless since they could lock down their entry points on BLs easier.
The only way to change that would be put the main respond point in the middle of the map in borderlands. Which i would not be against as it would add a new feel to borderlands and would not be the some old layout. Which i think would bring more people into borderlands simply because of the new layout.
If you server only focuses on EB your most likely losing your matches because unless you can take over all of EB your borderlands has more points than EB.
Few would give a crap about hills, bay or garri if they did this. The only reason they are strategically important is the waypoints. Holding them for points is secondary to that. A lot of servers wouldn’t even bother trying to hold their BL since the run to the bottom half would be mostly pointless since they could lock down their entry points on BLs easier.
The only way to change that would be put the main respond point in the middle of the map in borderlands. Which i would not be against as it would add a new feel to borderlands and would not be the some old layout. Which i think would bring more people into borderlands simply because of the new layout.
If you server only focuses on EB your most likely losing your matches because unless you can take over all of EB your borderlands has more points than EB.
^Pretty much this. BL keeps are still important because they’re worth way more than a couple of outer towers in EB. Plus, you can treb NW and NE tower from Garri and Lake from Hills.
It’s true that if you remove the waypoints, it might become at lot harder to hold all your home BL. But, it will become a lot easier to hold the keep closest to your spawn waypoint in other BL.
Removing the waypoint might change the meta to : hold 1 keep in each BL instead of hold home bl and eternal corner.
But, to go back to the new upgrade replacing the waypoints :
What do you think about a buff to help the defender? I was thinking something like constant stability when you are in or around the keep. Unremovable. Having stability helps a lot in battle. Also, you would be able to stand on wall without being pull off. Having that buff on as an upgrade would greatly help the defending side without making it impossible to capture the keep.
Few would give a crap about hills, bay or garri if they did this. The only reason they are strategically important is the waypoints. Holding them for points is secondary to that. A lot of servers wouldn’t even bother trying to hold their BL since the run to the bottom half would be mostly pointless since they could lock down their entry points on BLs easier.
I’d say add an upgrade in its place to double the damage from the keep lord or something along those lines. Or a special, very damaging, keep-lord spell upgrade.
Double the keep lord health?
Special piece of internal, mounted, possibly indestructible, very damaging siege. Could even make it so you effectively have to complete the “objective” of clearing out the control spot for that siege because if it’s manned you stand a good chance of wiping. Or if it’s destructible, you have a soft-requirement to kill the siege emplacement.
removing keep waypoints in borderlands has a pretty big impact on defensive roaming.. if you’re in the bottom half of the map and you die, always having to run back the whole way down from citadel would get really tedious really fast.
It’s not even the balance side of it, it’s the QoL.
Removing waypoints would making roaming a bigger pain aswell, quite a long jog to get to certain points and i am glad we have waypoints when we do.
If the reason to remove waypoints was to avoid stacking in favor of the strong server, why did they implement bloodlust? Are we just trading mechanics now? I’d rather keep the waypoints.
No one seems to care about ruins and the Bloodlust buff these days. So, what about just having one central waypoint in the middle of the ruins…and then removing the bloodlust buff? Instead, whoever owns all five ruins gets the waypoint? This would reduce the zerg by forcing roaming groups to patrol the ruins if they wanted to hang on to it. Small groups would really hold a critical role then.
Edit: seems I missed the point of this post! But I still like the idea. Back to the OP: I think there should be another guard upgrade to bring them up to champion status. Currently the guards are a bit of a joke and can be soloed. Making them powerful enough to have a group think twice before rushing in would really help defence.
No one seems to care about ruins and the Bloodlust buff these days. So, what about just having one central waypoint in the middle of the ruins…and then removing the bloodlust buff? Instead, whoever owns all five ruins gets the waypoint? This would reduce the zerg by forcing roaming groups to patrol the ruins if they wanted to hang on to it. Small groups would really hold a critical role then.
That is an interesting idea. It would mean servers would NEED to be there. What they should do though is make it so that the moment you lose a ruin you lose the way point access.
It would also mean people would have to STAY at the ruins to make sure it is refreshed as even losing it via running out on its own would mean losing the waypoint
Like some said before: removing waypoints would mean a lot of walking before the fights. I enjoy how the waypoints sometimes make it faster and if you contest a waypoint, the zerg will have to walk to that keep now anyway.
If it would get removed I think there should be something big to replace it. I like Hickeroars idea about a big additional weapon on inner. Would be good if it could be manned by more than one person though and I think it should be destructible.
@ArmageddonAsh another unrewarded guard-duty x5? I don’t know. Also it would be very hard to hold anything in your own borderland if the opponent has that waypoint in the middle of the ruins as it is a short way to bay, to hills and garry. If you have it in your homeland, it is very easy to defend all three keeps even when those keeps are contested.
Ether Disruptor-creates a field that disrupts enemy portal attempts anywhere inside the inner keep doors(no bypassing inner walls).
or
creates an Ether Disruptor in both the inner and outer keep grounds(likely close to a depot) that shield those areas respectively(i.e. no portals past inner walls, or outer walls), these objects CAN be destroyed via conventional or siege means much like cannons/mortars/oil and provide no protection while destroyed.
Anyhow, figured if defenders can’t waypoint in, maybe preventing attackers from porting inside would be worth researching? At least from porting through inners, even though it’s an awesome thing to do right now :P
Dinas Dragonbane, the Danger Ranger
Tri-Lead of Ascension [WAR] of Borlis Pass
I kind of like those waypoints, and it does makes those keeps more important because of it.
Maybe what they should do is make those waypoints automatic on caputre without an upgrade so smaller servers will get the benefit without trying to hold out for the upgrade to occur.
Nobody like walking forever trying to find the zerg just to get ganked on the way there.
Currently in the Edge of the Mists testing area, there are only 2 waypoints available (your main keep, and your spawn/safe zone)
They are not upgrades, they come standard with the areas, and the only way of gaining more waypoints is to capture an area with one (enemy keeps)
I like this idea to the extent that they would come standard with the structure. As pointed out, the WP’s benefit strong servers and allow them to keep pressure on the other servers more easily. A contested Keep in EBG can easily cost you a tower if your zerg is on the other side of the map and the run from your spawn takes too long (think 4x Superior rams or golem rush).
On the other hand, giving instant access to the Way Point seems a bit too much. I’d suggest a cool down where the Way Point auto-builds or becomes accessible only after the Lord’s buff is gone, which would help temper the momentum of the new owners a bit and give time for a counter before a zerg can map in as soon as it’s captured.
one could make it so that the waypoint are only added by a default timer. So say you have to hold that keep for 48 hours without losing it once.
Then, you get it for free. Instead they can make a different upgrade to replace the WP one. Like say, a set amount of AC’s and ballistas on the walls (1 AC each side of a gate, 2 ballista on the edge of all corners?)
Lv 80 Guard, Ranger, Ele, Thief, warr, engi
Currently @ some T1 server in EU
The only way to change that would be put the main respond point in the middle of the map in borderlands. Which i would not be against as it would add a new feel to borderlands and would not be the some old layout. Which i think would bring more people into borderlands simply because of the new layout.If you server only focuses on EB your most likely losing your matches because unless you can take over all of EB your borderlands has more points than EB.
An interesting concept. Keep waypoints removed, a new waypoint in the center added. Holding and capturing ruins would be even more crucial, and maybe we could finally get that horrible Orb Bonus removed. It would certainly diminish the time to get to places for sure, which no one would object. The entire area would have to remade of course with Legendary Defenders and such, with no exploits to get in there and spawn camp. Then how would they other opposing server get their hands on this WP?
The main problem with this is that a WP here would be able to dish out extreme pressure to Garrison, Hills, and Bay all at the same time. Reinforcements starting out on their home BL would have a lot more trouble getting to Hills and Bay.
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
@ArmageddonAsh another unrewarded guard-duty x5? I don’t know. Also it would be very hard to hold anything in your own borderland if the opponent has that waypoint in the middle of the ruins as it is a short way to bay, to hills and garry. If you have it in your homeland, it is very easy to defend all three keeps even when those keeps are contested.
Unrewarded? Not having the ONLY mid map spawn point enough now? That you need to be handed XP, WXP and everything else for it as well…
Yeah so it being a key point ALL the servers will want it and making it so that you have to hold 5, rather than just 3 means that the servers will have to put more people on to it.
The current Bloodlust means SO little now to most servers that they don’t even bother with it. So just remove the buff that you get and turn it into a Waypoint. Maybe in some sort of tower that can be attacked and has to be defended as well.
Plus it being in the cnetre makes it ALOT harder for the dominating servers to defend ALL 3 keeps at the same time. I have seen it when they just use the WP defend the current one, repair, WP to the next repeat and repair and so now.
Now imagine that they WP to the centre but they have 3 keeps and all of them or even 2 of them are under attack – no way they can defend them all…unless they split the zerg.
^Pretty much this. BL keeps are still important because they’re worth way more than a couple of outer towers in EB. Plus, you can treb NW and NE tower from Garri and Lake from Hills.
Defending a home BL T3 hills/bay would be near impossible since few would scout it. By the time a server realized golems were on the gate, the fight would be over. Having to run from citadel to scout would preclude a lot of the current scouting.
The home BL starting waypoint is further than the enemies waypoint to hills and bay making it more valuable for a server to hold garri on their own BL then hills and bay on the enemies.
Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
ANet could just give the home server 1 waypoint fo each area. On EB and your BL you get the waypoint in the keep close to spawn and garri. Have a different upgrade for the other keeps. It would still give people an advantage at defending their bl(and make it a heck of a lot easier to stop golem rushes), but not a tool to port around 40 times.
The attackers in a bl could get a totally different upgrade. Say I captured your keep, maybe I get 1 minute of swiftness from leaving this keep. You could get something that might make it easier to go on the offensive.
That would be fine if they block off that tunnel if the garri was captured. A tunnel that worked well would be impossible to defend against.
They could make it so we could place insta death traps and such inside it, make it like a maze as well that changes every so often and such it could be great.
The best way to change is make the PPT based on how upgraded it is. Camps start at 1 pt and go up to 5 with upgrades etc. If you want to keep paper towers and keep fine you will lose.
I would keep the waypoints but I would increase the time they are blocked during attacks by 10 s in order to close the window where you teleport into the keep. This would teach servers to defend their important structures more.
remove the waypoints, but add a tunnel that runs from citadel to the bottom of the cliff under the garrison vista.
That would be fine if they block off that tunnel if the garri was captured. A tunnel that worked well would be impossible to defend against.
The tunnel wouldn’t open into garrison, it opens up at water level below it. That way it speeds up access to the southern half of the map but doesn’t make access to the keeps too easy.
I would like to see waypoints altered, even totally removed.
However, before that can happen, there need to be some serious improvements to defence. As long as a zerg can melt through gates in seconds, and cap a T3 keep within less than 3 minutes of the threat being scouted, then waypoints are the only currently viable defence.
Personally, I’d like to see wooden gates boosted to have the HP of reinforced, reinforced gates replaced with “Fortified Gates”, and the Waypoint upgrade replaced with “Automatic Scanners” that show friendly/hostile dots near the keep to everyone on the map.
There is a way this could work… move citadel to garrison and garrison to citadel. Then the home BL would have a central waypoint with reasonable access to all keeps and towers. It would make going North on an enemy BL a pain but that is sort of the point I suppose.
Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
Heres a question I’ve been thinking about. You guys said removing WP would help balance servers in population right? I think that would be great idea, but i cant help having a bad feeling that what if it backfires? Like ends up making a server more stacked? Not trying to bring you guys down or anything I was just thinking. X.X
Maybe they should tie-in WP with being the losing servers in the match up? Allowing servers who are being dominated an easier way to defend or attack?
Differences in PPT greater than 100-200 triggers a loss of WP ‘s for dominating side and WP’s being given to the losing servers. This forces the stacked server to spread forces around to defend bl’s and eternal.
Not complaining but just pointing that nothing is being done with addressing population stacking of servers GW2. People playing on Outmanned servers are not being treated fair imho because they have to work that much harder to gain wxp and ranks.
The idea to remove the waypoint upgrade from the keeps has been toss around many times and the developer even acknowledged it. So, it’s something that will probably happen at some point.
The main reason for removing the waypoint is to split the zerg. If you remove the waypoints the zerg can’t cover every places with only 1 group so it has to either split or to lose everything. Waypoint are what make it possible for 1 big zerg to cover all the maps. But let’s not discuss the waypoints.
What I wonder is :
When we remove the waypoint upgrade, what should be put as a new upgrade to replace it?
If they remove the waypoints it will not kill zergs or even really deter them I don’t think. The sad fact is that a zerg can move faster than small groups. Having a bunch of small groups will ultimately slow a servers reaction time and splits a servers forces, meaning a bigger zerg will crush small groups and the slow run back will ultimately give the bigger zergs the advantage since they already killed a portion of the enemies forces. The only thing I see this impacting will be the overall meta of hold your borderland and your side of eternal. Instead it might shift to hold your side of borderlands and eternal, as going the whole way south on your borderland is a big unnecessary risk. This will of course also further emphasize that the server who can field more players will win since you will be spread a crossed all 4 maps.
Taking out waypoints is a bad decision that will ultimately reinforce the things that need eliminated(zergs and numbers > Skill). I think instead what they need to do is rework the boon system. Make it so boons are shared by all nearby allies but it divides the duration by each person granted the boon. So a 20s swiftness quickly becomes a 1s swiftness in a zerg. This will make it so small groups will travel faster than zergs and also has the added benefit of killing off zerg boon stacking. I know it’s a bit anti-friendly player but leaving things as the are isn’t any better.
No one seems to care about ruins and the Bloodlust buff these days. So, what about just having one central waypoint in the middle of the ruins…and then removing the bloodlust buff? Instead, whoever owns all five ruins gets the waypoint? This would reduce the zerg by forcing roaming groups to patrol the ruins if they wanted to hang on to it. Small groups would really hold a critical role then.
Edit: seems I missed the point of this post! But I still like the idea. Back to the OP: I think there should be another guard upgrade to bring them up to champion status. Currently the guards are a bit of a joke and can be soloed. Making them powerful enough to have a group think twice before rushing in would really help defence.
Sooo… We add Stonemist Castle to the borderlands?
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