Guild Wars 2

I agree. WvW gear should be at least more similar to sPvP unless PvE gear gets serious nerf bat. PvE gear is probably fine for high end PvE content but it’s not good for WvW. PvE gear was already unbalanced for any kind of PvP but they already added new ascended gear and will be even more in future which will result in just insane instagib builds and whatever I can’t even imagine. I am not even going into food buffs and certain clearly unbalanced runes.

Also need to grind for more and more gear for WvW only is a real pain. Many people like me too have several different characters we would like to play in WvW but in future it will be pretty much useless to field any character to competitive gameplay which requires top gear. And unless you happen to be PvE hero who just goes with the karmatrain to grind gold it’s extremely difficult to get badges and gold for that new gear.

My worst fear is that in future new skill unlocks and ascended gear can only be acquired comfortably by PvE grind/WvW karmatrain focused gameplay which will pretty much kill any small scale PvP in WvW. Even though it’s already pretty much dead form of gameplay I see more and more people leaving game or they just do occassional sPvP to fill their guild wars time for the day instead of being overrun by 60 man mobs, owned by level 82 npcs or whacked up by someone with better gear since you didn’t have gold to afford decent gear.

^ this guy gets it

if you’re unwilling/too lazy to grind for better gear you can always buy gems, transfer to gold and buy it. There are a lot of people I know who do that in wvw because they don’t want to do PvE stuff for gold but still want specific stat combinations. Why not just ask for larger spvp maps or a different mode in spvp if you want larger scale combat? Why try to ruin it for those of us who like the way it works in wvw now? Seems pretty selfish and lazy to me.

I do NOT want it like PvP, and I do NOT want to have wasted 50g building my two builds.

50g is nothing, I think I’ve spent at least 500g on my 4 alts

Oroibahazopi.9074:

50g is nothing, I think I’ve spent at least 500g on my 4 alts

Well, aren’t you special. Doesn’t mean 50g is nothing to him. Also, I say no to this because it means we have the same balance across the board. I like that WvW has a slightly different balance than sPvP thanks to itemization and food buffs. Some things work in WvW that do not work in sPvP, and I think that is a good thing. I am all for upleveled players having a fair chance, but not for making WvW like sPvP, and I say this as someone with near 2000 games in sPvP.

special no, but trying to stay competitive yes

luckily 500g is easy to get speed running cof but soon that’s going to be gone

and 500g will more than likely be nothing compared to getting multiple sets of ascended gear for every alt

this has nothing to do with balance at all btw, just the way gear is provided. there is no reason why the stats of the gear needs to be the same in spvp and wvw

In GW1, there were PvP and PvE characters who were allowed to participate in the same PvP. The PvP characters had a very generic armor and the PvE characters were allowed to look awesome.

I thought this was supposed to be the motivation for grind in gw2 – looks. Alot of PvPers in gw1 even the top teams grinded out their PvE characters and played them in tournaments and casual arenas. But others who didn’t have that kind of time on their hands could still run with PvP characters and be just as effective.

Maybe a compromise to the OP’s problem is for players to use sPvP customized characters to participate in WvW with a single generic skin (per armor type) without changing how PvE characters operate there. As many of you in the thread have stated, sPvP customization is limiting so it’s not like they will be more effective than the hardworking PvE grinded characters.

Not exactly an equal playing field, but to those of us with a life it is still a thousand times better than the ineffective upscaling mechanic and gear grind. And your hard earned PvE armor will stand out even more among a bunch of generic PvP armor.

Terrible idea: theres a reason many wvwers will not play spvp, making wvw more like spvp with its gear limitations is an aweful idea.

I like my gear customization, i like my particle effects, i like the fact that putting in the effort to get the gear and do the dailys gives me a tiny advantage!

Thanks for the suggestion, but please keep spvp in spvp and out of wvw!

no no please leave spvp where it belongs…in spvp because as stated already alot of wvw people could care less for spvp

as far as grind for your gear goes…why not just use boh?you do know you can get lvl 80 gear and wep with boh right? sense your such a dedicated wvw player who could care less about looks then that gear should work just fine for you and sense you get boh doing your usual wvw stuff that shouldn’t feel like a grind..problem solved

because you don’t get the right stats from the boh store…

I leveled my main through WvW. I was underpowered, unskilled, and squishy. I got killed a lot. Now that I’ve been 80 long enough to gear myself properly and learn my class, I have earned the right to be on the other side of the sword.

I want the unbalance.

I like the fact the in a zerg it’s possible for me to outshine the people around me because I have better stats.

But what I hate, is people making 4 or more alts and then kittening about how hard it is to have each one of them running full ascended gear.

I’d rather be good at the game than be propped up by more powerful gear

I mean wth is that so weird, some of the comments are like I’m asking to bin all their items you can still watch yourself dance in the pve areas.

Again, to almost everyone you just look like mono coloured generic models with black faces in WvW.

I mean is differentiating by player skill so terrible, am I too old school at video games for modern gameplay, wth just wth

bakittenoo what the crap anet this filter is crazy

Yeah, I would love to play WvW with 20 identical hammer warriors smashing the front of the zerg. Then we would counter with 10 Guardians, and the hammer warriors would vanish and turn into Necro’s stripping boons

And so on and so on…

You are neglecting to also understand that a servers gradually shifting meta gives matches their strengths and weaknesses and ultimately a servers flavor. If everyone could gear for the Flavor of the Day / Commander, WvW would just turn into a huge painful version of rock paper scissors.

As other people have said, only certain builds are possible in PvE/WvW and taking away those builds for the sake of “ease of access” is laughable.

Why not make it optional? Poorly geared people can switch it up, as can upleveleds. It’s still far less useful/diverse than a fully geared level 80, so I don’t see it breaking anything.

Urrid.4593:

Yeah, I would love to play WvW with 20 identical hammer warriors smashing the front of the zerg. Then we would counter with 10 Guardians, and the hammer warriors would vanish and turn into Necro’s stripping boons

And so on and so on…

You are neglecting to also understand that a servers gradually shifting meta gives matches their strengths and weaknesses and ultimately a servers flavor. If everyone could gear for the Flavor of the Day / Commander, WvW would just turn into a huge painful version of rock paper scissors.

As other people have said, only certain builds are possible in PvE/WvW and taking away those builds for the sake of “ease of access” is laughable.

ya because everyone in spvp plays the same builds and in fact people don’t even play matches because the outcome is already decided by team composition

also I think you’ll find a lot of the more competitive wvw groups run similar builds to spvp ones

What server do you WvW on? Genuinely curious.

sbi

onetwothreefourfive

It’s is clear you are pretty much alone supporting this idea. The amount of effort you are putting in is incredible and makes me wonder if this ain’t a troll thread. Why? Because of the suggested idea and your replies.

Ascended and exotics barely give stat differences. Definitely not enough to be gamebreaking or justify you losing a 1on1. Exotics are just EXTREMELY easy to get in this game. Get them for karma, and who doesn’t have millions of karma to spend? Get them for badges, got bank tabs full of those. Get them for money, 10g/day in WvW pure profit ain’t a problem. Even many PvE events give exotics now for free.

Gear difference ain’t an issue in WvW, unless you really are to lazy to open up your trading post. Only thing that is an issue is the upscaled aka rallybots. But lvling is pretty fast aswel in this game, craft lvling is like 70g? Ok, not everyone is rich, but even with the traditional way, you lvl fast compared to other games.

Having no stats on your armor and only 1 amulet would destroy my build, and even if I get 6 trinkets, the lack of food will make me absolete in WvW.

No I think all the reactions to this thread make it clear that this ain’t a good idea. Good you are trying to suggest things, but know when you have to drop an idea and move on.

if you actually cared to read every post you’d find some support for the idea lol

Oroibahazopi.9074:

if you actually cared to read every post you’d find some support for the idea lol

I did and 2 people supported you, congratz.

If you want to split hairs it’s 3

also the only legitimate concern I have seen is people unhappy about the limited gear combinations which I can agree with

ad hominems, thief complainers who say gear doesn’t matter and people only concerned about what their character model looks like in a pvp setting aren’t arguments

food I couldn’t care less about if it’s in or out I never said anything about food, up levelling is a joke

Agreed with the majority here – this is an awful idea.

Not really much point responding as obviously ANet would never actually do this and it’s clear that no matter how many people point out the flaws OP will continue his one-man crusade, but there you go!

Anyway OP hope you have fun in WvW regardless of the gear system

no, no and more no!. I do not want everyone to be equal blah, blah. i would just like to mention NO!!!

Edit for clarity: NO MEANS NO!

Hyung.6140:

Agreed with the majority here – this is an awful idea.

Not really much point responding as obviously ANet would never actually do this and it’s clear that no matter how many people point out the flaws OP will continue his one-man crusade, but there you go!

Anyway OP hope you have fun in WvW regardless of the gear system

no im quitting with all the other people who realize wvw is trakitten the moment

Oroibahazopi.9074:

no im quitting with all the other people who realize wvw is trakitten the moment

Good riddance.
It would seem like the majority of players prefer the current system though, especially since the amount of WvW:ers have increased the past months.

Oroibahazopi.9074:

ya because real life war is so much fun

Well this is a game where you can revive so yeah war is fun. If you only had one life and than had to buy a new game to play more than it would not be fun.

I find it amusing how often threads attempting to deal with this topic get shot down immediately, end up revolving around inherently flawed arguments, or simply result in de facto flame wars that ultimately bring nothing to the table. In my opinion, people who engage in these debates often have too much invested in the potential outcome and therefore simply rush to protect that investment, and the debate derails and seizes to be constructive as a result.

The crux of this whole debate is, essentially, time. The time we invest in the game, and the rewards we receive as a return on that investment. The incentive structures of an MMO game are inherently complex, because they must cater to a complex player base. Not surprisingly, players wish to be rewarded for their time invested, but those rewards must also be available through a variety of methods in order to do justice to each type of player. The PvE player cannot realistically be asked to complete the same tasks that the PvP player would gladly perform to achieve a given reward, and vice versa. Of course in practice the playerbase cannot be so easily divided into black and white categories. However, sacrificing some precision on the altar of clarity, as a matter of theoretical game design we are dealing with two different archetypes of players that each require their own form of incentive structure to be present in their format of choice.

There is more to it than that though. Not only do these player archetypes require different methods by which to achieve their awards, they also play the game with different goals in mind. Where the PvE player is happy to go dungeon crawling and explore new territory to build their character with new and progressively better weapons and armor, the PvP player views these weapons and armor as nothing more than a necessity required to be effective. They are not rewards, but rather a mere byproduct that exist only as a means to an end. Building a character is not the goal, the goal of the PvP player is to use that character to test his mettle against other equally minded players – and win. And in any type of competitive game, in order for that competition to be a true reflection of skill, players must compete on a level playing field. It will not suffice for it to simply be “level enough”. The PvP player views the game similarly to how one might look at a game of chess. Each player begins the game with an equal amount of pieces of the same value, and those pieces are given to the player not as a reward, but simply as a matter of course to enable the gameplay. The objective of the game – or the reward, if you will – is to win, not to earn more pieces.

Incidentally, the above is also the reason why it does not do to accuse players of laziness when they request that an item be given to them essentially “for free”. That argument is simply a reflection of the inability to place oneself in the shoes of others. Neither will it suffice to state that you did thus and so to earn an item, and that others should therefore be expected to do the same. It cannot be reasonably expected of a PvP player to, say, grind (a term that is appropriate here, since that is precisely how a PvP player would perceive it) their way through fractals or even guild missions to earn something that is a requirement to play effectively in their format of choice in the first place. Naturally you can stand your ground and insist on that course of action if you wish, but doing so will leave a large portion of the player base disgruntled. PvP players require an incentive structure that is available via their preferred mode of play, just as PvE players require theirs. And just to address one last complaint, the idea that WvW is “not meant to be balanced” and that differences in gear accessibility can therefore be ignored ultimately attempts to reduce a complex system into terms of black and white. While it it true that balance does not exist to the same degree, that does not allow one to simply discard the idea of balance altogether or pretend it is not necessary. It is a matter of shades of gray, not black and white. It is still desirable to aim for the highest degree of balance attainable.

Continued…

The real concern is when substantial time differences occur between different modes of play. To return to the original point, the investment that all we make, regardless of how or what we enjoy playing, is time. When players in one format are rewarded too disproportionately in relation to those of another format while still investing the same amount of time, problems arise. Case in point, for a player who is only interested in playing WvW (in other words, a player of the PvP archetype), the only method of gaining ascended trinkets is through laurels. It does not take much calculation to figure out that the time investment required is somewhat on the excessive side, especially considering the presence of alts and the need to experiment with different builds.

Now, that being said, the one point that must be conceded is that WvW is not true PvP. Specifically, the nature of WvW is a PvP format with a PvE incentive structure. That element should be maintained. Now, before I proceed I would like to state for the record that I do not see the problem in two separate incentive structures existing side by side for WvW – one PvE-based and one PvP-based. However, WvW is a different animal and needs a solution that does not invalidate or diminish the investments people have already made. Simply giving the PvP player immediate and free access to a fully geared character might work in a PvP format, but given that we’re dealing with a PvE incentive structure it is clear that any solution must accommodate this one way or another. This does not, however, mean that the idea of making WvW more like PvP dies on the drawing board. The idea is worth exploring, and without necessarily advocating one solution or another, here is one possible way you might go about it. It is not an optimal solution by any means. Rather, think of it as an attempt at compromise in the interest of bridging the gap between two schools of thought and moving the debate forward in a constructive manner.

SUGGESTION: Implement a set of “WvW armor”, similar to how a separate set of armor currently exists for sPvP. This set of WvW armor comes with free access to all runes and sigils, but has no incentive structure attached to it and cannot be upgraded or transmuted in any way. It is simply a separate set of armor, weapons, and trinkets with maxed stats of your choice (yes, this means ascended quality where applicable), and with the basic appearance of starter armor in sPvP. Also, give WvW players immediate access to traits when using their WvW armor. Forget turning six trinkets into one or eliminating consumables or anything along those lines, a solution must accommodate the investments people have already made, which is to say that among other things it cannot invalidate existing gear.

Want something that looks prettier? That’s fine, use your PvE armor.

Now as I said earlier, I don’t really see a problem with actually having an incentive structure for such armor, but this is an attempt at compromise. Seen purely from a PvP perspective it does not eliminate all the problems, but it does mitigate some of the damage done by a.net’s excessive time gating of content for players who prefer certain formats, and also does away with low level characters effectively being useless because they lack maxed gear and traits despite being “upleveled”. Essentially, think of it as an attempt to create what in Guild Wars 1 was known as a PvP character, except maintaining the current PvE-based incentive structure as soon as you want anything other than basic gear.

Simple enough really. And yes, I realize that getting a.net to actually move on this is probably impossible. But we’re theorycrafting here anyway. Not to mention that I thought the flaws in some of the arguments that are so often repeated deserved to be pointed out. That, and making it clear that, contrary to popular opinion, there are in fact ways to peel this particular onion in a manner that doesn’t necessarily step on people’s toes.

^^^ everything that guy said….. NO! gear for WvW is fine the way it is.

I like WvW, I dont like PvP. So Im gonna say no to this one.

I actually agree with you. Upleveled players are completely useless in WvW, and I’ve been told several times by commanders to gtfo because as an upleveled person I’m just keeping a lvl 80 from joining the battlegrounds….

It’s kind of funny to say that you have to play PvE and get all your gear there before you enter the PvP area, unless you want soldier gear…

Saelune.5316:

I like WvW, I dont like PvP. So Im gonna say no to this one.

Mirrored my thoughts in two sentences.

Maybe ANet will introduce GvG with sPvP options one day, they would be crazy to change WvW to sPvP gearing. They make a fortune from gem-gold sales from WvWers.

Sup I’m back with moar dramaqueening.

Tuesday’s gonna be epik.

P.S. 2weeksperascendedweapon

No, bad idea! I have heard some anet ideas before and this is defiantly one of them. No not only no but ell no.

Put everything on the equivalent lvl 80 exotic and I would be fine with it. Taking runes out like in spvp no not at all.

So to recap.

Bringing ascended gear down to the equivalent lvl 80 exotic Yes.
Same as for bringing players upleveled armor, to the lvl 80 equivalent.

No to everything else, particles are good as they are. Runes as they are are also good, food is good. Just balance armor/weapons to be the same.

I’ll clarify a bit from my OP.

Ideally I’d want the full stats combos available, i.e. full accs, weapons and armours. Unfortunately I don’t think anet has the ability or inclination for something like that so I side with a copy paste of the sPvP setup.

Food shouldn’t be too hard to keep in, even though it is silly from a pvp standpoint.

^ sPvP has runes? or did something change while I was busy ignoring that game mode

Oroibahazopi.9074:

I’ll clarify a bit from my OP.

Ideally I’d want the full stats combos available, i.e. full accs, weapons and armours. Unfortunately I don’t think anet has the ability or inclination for something like that so I side with a copy paste of the sPvP setup.

Food shouldn’t be too hard to keep in, even though it is silly from a pvp standpoint.

^ sPvP has runes? or did something change while I was busy ignoring that game mode

So you ignore that game mode, but want to force it down other peoples throats. People play WvW for the way it is.

Yep the game mode is horrible in sPvP heavily favouring specific builds. WvW is more diverse and not just because of the gear differences.

I’m not talking about the game mode anyway, I’m talking about the gear system. What’s so hard to understand?

Upscaling isn’t really an issue- it really doesn’t take that long to level a toon to 80, especially with the current events, so upscaled people should be encouraged to level up to 80 while the going is good.

There are plenty of things for upscaled toons to do in wvw that can help- just don’t expect to level fast in wvw unless your server is either winning or has a karma train attitude.

Getting a set of exotics from temples shouldn’t take you too long, or do a little event farming at level 80 and earn the money to buy the gears.

Having the ability to swap around between classes and builds within wvw would be a disaster. i can just imagine the commander on ts saying ‘right everyone, roll mesmers, we’re going to attack their keep and chain time warp to melt the t3 gate in 20 seconds while hiding under bubbles’, soon as keep is taken roll out your necros.

The beauty of most of wvw is that you don’t know what you are going to be facing which keeps it fresh, which is the exact opposite of spvp with its’ cookie cutter builds.

Victory.2879:

Upscaling isn’t really an issue- it really doesn’t take that long to level a toon to 80, especially with the current events, so upscaled people should be encouraged to level up to 80 while the going is good.

There are plenty of things for upscaled toons to do in wvw that can help- just don’t expect to level fast in wvw unless your server is either winning or has a karma train attitude.

Getting a set of exotics from temples shouldn’t take you too long, or do a little event farming at level 80 and earn the money to buy the gears.

Having the ability to swap around between classes and builds within wvw would be a disaster. i can just imagine the commander on ts saying ‘right everyone, roll mesmers, we’re going to attack their keep and chain time warp to melt the t3 gate in 20 seconds while hiding under bubbles’, soon as keep is taken roll out your necros.

The beauty of most of wvw is that you don’t know what you are going to be facing which keeps it fresh, which is the exact opposite of spvp with its’ cookie cutter builds.

It wouldn’t be any different, commanders already can get people to log onto class x for whatever reason. It’s why people who WvW have alts, so they can enrich the strategy. By your own words you say that getting a character WvW ready isn’t a problem so I’ll reiterate it wouldn’t be different in that respect.

Upscaling is a huge issue since an upscaled character is a massive rally bait at any scale, running an upleveled is holding back anyone you’re running with not just because dps/tankyness is crap but also because you give out a 50% heal to any downed enemy who finish them. And believe me you will get singled out and finished for that rally.

Upscaled shouldn’t be manning siege either because they wont have the Wxp to man it effectively and again will be holding back the rest of the group.

I’ll think you’ll find that WvW meta is “solved” and the best groups run very similar setups

Nikkinella.8254:

If you want spvp, then play spvp. Don’t make WvW as boring and limited as it is too.

WvW couldnt possibly be more boring than it is now. its pure mindless drone zerging,
the day I saw 70 people with 20 golems attacking a tower I died inside

^ Switch to a less stacked server then and you won’t see that. Don’t screw over those of us who aren’t on bandwagon zerg servers who enjoy things the way they are now.
And I now understand why OP wants to change it. We faced their server last matchup, they were terrible. Probably getting tired of getting owned and want less customization because he can’t think of a way to counter his opponent’s better builds. My guild slept on the bridge leading to their base while they tried unsuccessfully to kill us. Cant even kill us firing cannons at us and attacking us while we sleep.

20 golems isn’t uncommon on a t5 server.

And YEAH don’t play the game in the most optimal way, it’s YOUR fault that the meta promotes boring strategy.

Yes ONLY IF you have access to as much customisation of stats that is currently available. (gear with no stats just runes and 1 trinket isn’t exciting gear wise) Including food buffs and wrench buff of choice.

Otherise bleh.

Nikkinella.8254:

^ Switch to a less stacked server then and you won’t see that. Don’t screw over those of us who aren’t on bandwagon zerg servers who enjoy things the way they are now.
And I now understand why OP wants to change it. We faced their server last matchup, they were terrible. Probably getting tired of getting owned and want less customization because he can’t think of a way to counter his opponent’s better builds. My guild slept on the bridge leading to their base while they tried unsuccessfully to kill us. Cant even kill us firing cannons at us and attacking us while we sleep.

Oh mayn ad hominems, pr0 level argumentation skills there bra.

To the above, yes I agree a prefect world would have the full customization options.

I didn’t read this entire thread, so maybe something was resolved, but I don’t feel like turning WvW into SPvP is a well thought out idea.

If you desire the play style or the customization, just visit SPvP.

I have LONG been an advocate for allowing more gear choices into SPvP, as the choices there SEVERELY limit many classes. You should be able to port your Lvl 80 character’s stuff into SPvP.

Put 50v50 fights, fortified capture points and buildable siege weaponry in sPvP and I’d gladly go.

What about warriors? They’re kittenin useless in spvp, but one of the top classes in WvW. Should we knock warriors down to only being usefull running zerker gear in dungeons?

WvW is not intended to be completely balanced and fair. Some people have poured a lot of hours into “training” their charecter, i.e. acquiring equipment, runes, and food. As a reward for all that work, now they are much better than Joe Blow, who has been playing for all of two weeks on his new thief but will totally /laugh and /dance on your body if only he could have the opportunity.

WTFFFfffffffffff you think warriors are “useless” in sPvP because of the gear options?

My god wth is wrong with people

I AM NOT SAYING CHANGE WVW INTO SPVP

And secondly grinding gear is not training lol, it’s anticompetitive. Training is learning your class and optimizing builds, not “oh I got better gear than you lol”. If you suck so hard you lose to a guy who only just got the game then too bad, differentiation by player skill is what’s competitive.

FYI WvW still exists on the Competitive play page

This isn’t that complicated. They did it in Guild Wars 1, there is no reason they can’t do the same thing here.

The customization in sPvP is crap compared to everything we can do in WvW/PvP at the moment, which in itself is also crap.

Anet – do what you did for Guild Wars 1, balthazar faction or “glory” as you call it to unlock runes, sigils, skills, and armor packs. Then don’t change a thing and let people gear their character completely like they can in PvE instead of the way it is now with 1 Amulet and 1 Jewel for all of the gear stats. Conceptually, its not that hard! Anyone that is against this is a carebear that doesn’t want to see the competitive play in WvW rise.

If anet did this, the theory crafting and group composition experimentation would go through the roof. Then again, WvW is a “PvE” game mode – Anet’s most embarassing downfall.

TLDR: Make WvW customizable like sPvP by making sPvP’s customization equivalent to WvW/PvE the way PvP modes were customizable in GW1.