So I noticed some people has been getting problems with the amount of times Retal proccs when using AoE attacks, particularly attacks such as Flamethrower, Nades and Tornado; I think the viable solution without shafting Guardian’s abilities to be effective at range is this:
Only take Retal dmg from up to 2 Sources (maybe 3, but 2 sounds enough for many attacks – although again the skills above need reworking on the procc times anyway, because they’re just insane)
What do you guys think, solution or no?
Does this need a solution? If we clash with a mob that stacked retal, we immediatly hold off our big AoE’s until the 4-5 seconds have passed or our necros removed it. I thinkt he problem lies in people buttonmashing too much, not paying attention to buffs or how they take damage.
So, pro tip, if you’re a ranger, count to 5 before you unleash your barrage.
Retaliation is ok . Solve zerg or Ac issue
I’m having flashbacks to confusion threads….
Retaliation is fine. If you see the giant retal damage icon popping up, here’s a pro tip: Don’t use rapid fire skills.
Just need to mention one ore thing. Its always so increadibly fun to see a thief jump into a 5-man group with a guardian and pop daggerstorm only to instantly die. I mean, you know EVERY single guardian carries an AoE retal as their utility.
Seems people want to nerf anything that requires them to pay attention. And yes, this sounds EXACTLY like the nerf confusion threads ( which shouldnt have been nerf’d imo)
Anet please do not dumb down this game further, you already have the money of the bad players, no need to appease them so they stay subscribed like that “other game”.
Retaliation is ok . Solve zerg or Ac issue
Retal is far form being ok.
Internal cooldown on it would solve the problem.
Retaliation is not broken/op, therefore no fix/solution is required.
I was 1v1 against a guardian earlier I started taking retal damage so I did the unthinkable…I stopped attacking him? for a few seconds. I then proceeded to stomp him.
Retaliation is okay in every game mode except massive zerging.
Confusion (even in it’s old form) is okay in every game mode except massive zerging.
Conclusion: Nerf massive zerging, not retaliation or confusion and restore those 2 back to their old values like they did with revealed.
You say nerf retal, i say MOAR PTV! VTP would work even better!
Retaliation is reportedly currently broken on the borderland maps.
Retaliation was supposedly nerfed along with confusion a patch or two ago. Except, the retaliation nerf only applies to EB and does not apply to the borderland maps.
This needs to be fixed.
I never notice retal being a problem. IF it seems like it can be a problem, I stop attacking for a bit.
Solution: Stop spamming attacks like a moron. Paying attention is all you need to do to make this “problem” go away.
Solution: Stop spamming attacks like a moron. Paying attention is all you need to do to make this “problem” go away.
This is actually the correct answer. (Give this man a cigar!)
Problem solved, thread can be closed now.
~MRA
I never notice retal being a problem. IF it seems like it can be a problem, I stop attacking for a bit.
So basically in massive team fights you never attack, right?
Don’t know if ignorant or just stupid, you don’t have time to click on every enemy in a 50 man zerg to check if they have retal before attacking.
Things also have channel time. They can pop retal whenever.
“Stop attacking” isn’t a solution. Confusion was the same exact thing. You could just ‘stop attacking’, right?
LOL
Both Confusion and Retal were nerfed heavily. The Retal nerf is broken on Borderlands (not EBG), but it’s still simple enough to delay your zerg bombs. It’s the player’s own fault if they let themselves dry up the last of their health on Retal instead of backing off and healing.
Asking for Retal to be nerfed AGAIN is just lazy players asking for the game to be made even more mindless for them. “YOU MEAN I CAN’T JUST SPAM MY AOES? THIS GAME IS BROKEN.” Know what my guild does when we’re faced with an enemy group stacked with Retal? We drop CC and boon removal and move around for a few seconds to let it fall off.
That said, Retal duration is negligible on anything except Guardians, especially when you don’t give them time to stack light fields. Most groups spend too much time stacking Might and Swiftness to get any threatening amount of Retal stacked.
(edited by Christos de Soufre.3802)
Retaliation is ok . Solve zerg or Ac issue
Retal is far form being ok.
Internal cooldown on it would solve the problem.
Exactly, ANet has nerfed every benefit from rapid fire attacks (Cool downs, Cool downs everywhere), why should we be completely unable to use half of our total skills (and almost NONE of our #1 skills) because of a buff that happens all of the kitten time in WvW?
Everyone QQed about the benefits of high damage rapid fire attacks, but what about those of us that got nerfed too? I did the calculation in another thread, but essentially, I have only 2 reasonable #1 attacks left available in any build possible for my engineer that won’t leave me with more damage than I actually do against any more than 1 target with retaliation. (Just 1 if you consider my rifle #1 skill pierces)
But that’s fine, just boost my overall damage by about 20%, and I think we can call it even.
Retal is definitely fine, no need to let it go down the road that Confusion did.
As a Mes I don’t have any real “rapid fire aoe” so maybe I don’t feel it as much, but tbh even in mass zergs when I can see it proccing when I attack I just carry on, it doesn’t really do enough damage to warrant a cease fire. Although in fairness, confusion never stopped me either but that was nerfed so what do I know! D=
Retaliation is ok . Solve zerg or Ac issue
Retaliation actually supports zerg fighting because you can mass retal a zerg and the people will just kill themselves trying to attack you.
You say nerf retal, i say MOAR PTV! VTP would work even better!
Yeah, because it’s so much fun to have two groups that can’t actually kill each other running their groups through each other’s, spamming 1,1,1,1,1,1,6. Then turn and repeat, because no one actually did any damage (well, except for retaliation since it bypasses armor and can’t be blocked or dodged, so yeah, don’t nerf retal any more, because the PVT hordes won’t even be able to down each other when they forget to look at their health bars for several minutes)……
tl’dr PVT vs. PVT = ZZZZZZZ
On crit heal foods and sigils are the obvious counters to retaliation, but they got severely nerfed. “Use boon stripping” is shortsighted, all boon stripping cooldowns are much longer than the amount of light fields + blasts available. I can throw a dozen grenades before they start to land, I see a group without retaliation up and chuck grenades, then a quick re-application of retaliation turns a grenade barrage into “oh crap run and hope all my heals are off CD”, my engineer ain’t glass either.
tl’dr Retaliation hurts some weapons/professions/builds disproportionately harder than others, in some cases making them nearly useless.
(haha, you read the word “disproportionately” in a “tl’dr”, hahahhahahaha!)
Retal is fine as is. In fact, if a group of people cast retal, it should kill AC operators pretty quickly.
There needs to be player strategy.
Don’t know if ignorant or just stupid, you don’t have time to click on every enemy in a 50 man zerg to check if they have retal before attacking.
Fortunately, you don’t necessarily have to. You will get a special damage floater for retal damage. Just stop attacking once those floaters appear.
“Stop attacking” isn’t a solution. Confusion was the same exact thing. You could just ‘stop attacking’, right?
Actually, that’s exactly what I do. I usually just pause to pop a condi removal instead of attacking, and then go on with killing the mesmer.
~MRA
Okay so where were all you guys for the last few weeks when everyone’s crying to nerf it?
I am in fact fine with Retal, I main a Guardian and lead my guild into large scale combat all the time, and haven’t really had many problems with it cept on the rare occasions I Whirling Wrath at the wrong moment; basically I’ve been busy trying to save Guardian from an overhanded, clumsy nerf that destroys our range effectiveness and my build – that’s why I made this thread, it seemed like enough people were complaining to make ANet change it, so I decided to put forward my own solution to the only problems I think it can possibly present, so as to avoid getting shafted by some kind of ICD kitttten.
This is the best thing I could come up with so everyone is happy, but I don’t really think it needs a proper nerf anyway (hence ‘Solution’ in quotation marks), however if it came to that I’m just saying that this is pretty much a better solution than any other that’s being thrown around in my opinion.
Though dat Flamethrower procc…
(edited by Immolator.5640)
Does this need a solution? If we clash with a mob that stacked retal, we immediatly hold off our big AoE’s until the 4-5 seconds have passed or our necros removed it. I think the problem lies in people buttonmashing too much, not paying attention to buffs or how they take damage.
I wholeheartedly welcome and support your suggestion to revert the confusion nerf.
edit: Then again, ANet only reverts thief nerfs.
(edited by Aneirin Cadwall.9126)
Does this need a solution? If we clash with a mob that stacked retal, we immediatly hold off our big AoE’s until the 4-5 seconds have passed or our necros removed it. I thinkt he problem lies in people buttonmashing too much, not paying attention to buffs or how they take damage.
So, pro tip, if you’re a ranger, count to 5 before you unleash your barrage.
If Retaliation lasted only 1-3 seconds, I would agree; but it doesn’t. It can last indefinitely and it has very low recharges. You also act as if Boon Removal will remove all Boons instantly. As a self-admitted Guardian, you’re being incredibly disingenuous since you know how many Boons your Profession alone provides.
And for the record, those “button-mashers” are more skillful than you if they are landing damage on you. Why do you expect to be heavily rewarded for making a mistake?
Retaliation is simply not balanced in WvW. Just like Omnomberry Pie, it needs an internal-cooldown.
Howabout instead of limiting the amount of people it can be hit by, why not make it only proc off AOE once every few seconds? It will still punish people who AOE but it won’t just be so stupid easy to down necros or Fire staff Eles, who’s bar has about 3-4 AOE skills.
^ It’d have the same effect really, and I reckon it’d be too much effort for the people who have to code it to handle, I’ve been pulling around that idea myself for a while, but idk, I’d be fine with it, plus I didn’t mean the number of people it can be hit by, I meant limit the amount of retal sources that can effect one person; so if Engi A pre-solution flamethrowers a Zerg he’d get 15×5 retal proccs, after implementing he’s get 15×2 as he can only take Retal dmg from 2 different sources. If you see what I mean; what you said works as well I suppose, idm whichever.
Retaliation is ok . Solve zerg or Ac issue
Retaliation actually supports zerg fighting because you can mass retal a zerg and the people will just kill themselves trying to attack you.
Imho not. Good group can stack it and use heal fields. More dangerouse are 40 random berserkers . It’s last chance to counter the zerg
Retaliation should be limited by range or have a damage falloff based on range.
Posted this already, but the simple solution is to have it proc once a second on the receiver – so your average barrage will receive around 1900 damage back (which is probably more than you did to any single player anyway, and they will have regened most of that back).
Leaves it as a useful skill doing a decent amount of damage to multiple targets but no longer the ultimate anti- aoe skill.
And un nerf confusion ANet, we need more anti- zerg skills! while your there remove the ‘heal on going into stealth’ and give thiefs ONE heal with a cooldown of 30-40 seconds and 3 condition removals that they have to use up slots for. Then fix d/d eles- maybe make skills unable to heal them while they are moving at faster than normal speed.
And PLEASE nerf my necro, it’s insanely OP in group fights:-)
Oops, dreaming again…
Sounds to me like nerfing retal is a solution for know-nothing zerglings. Some day people will realize that zergs are very inefficient anyways. The smart people that can organize will take advantage of that.
ICD is a useless, heavy handed and clumsy attempt at fixing anything, it’s completely useless and creates more problems than it solves.
I was thinking that WvW is about strategy. But i can see it is not.
Strategy for me is enemy zerg in tight spot shooted by much smaller group and using advantage of AoE. Something like the movie 300. Few people able to stop big army because of choke point. Because of retail, its not possible.
But the only strategy seems to be get bigger numbers.
Retaliation is reportedly currently broken on the borderland maps.
Retaliation was supposedly nerfed along with confusion a patch or two ago. Except, the retaliation nerf only applies to EB and does not apply to the borderland maps.
This needs to be fixed.
Yes from 600 to 300 and doing 250 damege on EB, when on 1vs1 uf any1 dies from retaliations that player is really kitten :/
DON’T TOUCH RETALIATION!
I see no problem with retaliation, I see no problem with Arrow carts either…guess I’m the 1%
Retaliation is ok . Solve zerg or Ac issue
^This. ACs need to be solved more than retal.
I was thinking that WvW is about strategy. But i can see it is not.
Strategy for me is enemy zerg in tight spot shooted by much smaller group and using advantage of AoE. Something like the movie 300. Few people able to stop big army because of choke point. Because of retail, its not possible.
But the only strategy seems to be get bigger numbers.
Zerg busting is more than possible. There are plenty of guilds that have made a point out of busting huge zergs with smaller zergs.
I main engineer and I obviously get hit with a LOT of retaliation whenever I use grenades or flamethrower, which is pretty much all the time. I don’t wear PVT gear, but I do have a neat trick to counter the damage from retal: stop attacking for a moment and heal. My number 6 skill is really good for this.
Coming from someone who suffers more than most: please DON’T nerf retaliation.
Just one related question.
How is possible that all premade zergs of the main guilds are full of guardians and seek for more?
I t could be that some mechanics are a little bit op for an MvM scenario and should be balanced.
Best regards,
Haltair
ICD is a useless, heavy handed and clumsy attempt at fixing anything, it’s completely useless and creates more problems than it solves.
I agree, please revert all of the internal cool downs on life steal food, all of my traits/skills, and the sigils that I stack so my high-frequency, lower damage skills can be as completely OP as retaliation and multi-proc from multiple targets. Hey, I am actually using one of my skills, instead of just having a buff applied to me, so retaliation is still better…
OK, thx.
Make Retaliation proc Retaliation and I assure you that it will solve everything.
ICD is a useless, heavy handed and clumsy attempt at fixing anything, it’s completely useless and creates more problems than it solves.
I agree, please revert all of the internal cool downs on life steal food, all of my traits/skills, and the sigils that I stack so my high-frequency, lower damage skills can be as completely OP as retaliation and multi-proc from multiple targets. Hey, I am actually using one of my skills, instead of just having a buff applied to me, so retaliation is still better…
OK, thx.
Context – as in ‘anything’ any of the so-called problems with retal, not anything as in anything in the world, learn to interpret what people say instead of taking everything literally.
I main engineer and I obviously get hit with a LOT of retaliation whenever I use grenades or flamethrower, which is pretty much all the time. I don’t wear PVT gear, but I do have a neat trick to counter the damage from retal: stop attacking for a moment and heal. My number 6 skill is really good for this.
Coming from someone who suffers more than most: please DON’T nerf retaliation.
… plus, popping some Elixir B and watching a noob thief Heartseeker himself to death: priceless!
~MRA
Nerf Confusion!
Nerf Retal!
Nerf Water Fields!
Nerf Might!
Nerf Reflection!
And please fix(Insert own proffesion)!
I find it funny how people defend it for being a zerg busting mechanic, when in reality it is the opposite, zergballing guardians with retal spam rolling over most resistance. The old confusion bombing that mesmers had could be argued to be a good zergbuster, it walked around the 5 man cap (i think) and dealt damage in a way a lone player could easily cleanse (remember retal is duration only and not intensity and boons are usually harder to keep stripped than condis). That said though i find it good enough. I just dislike the fact that the over access of retal spam and light fields already on a guardian means all light field combos have a 3 sec retal… Thank you hammer auto and skill 2 for forcing all blast/light fields being balanced around you!
ICD is a useless, heavy handed and clumsy attempt at fixing anything, it’s completely useless and creates more problems than it solves.
I agree, please revert all of the internal cool downs on life steal food, all of my traits/skills, and the sigils that I stack so my high-frequency, lower damage skills can be as completely OP as retaliation and multi-proc from multiple targets. Hey, I am actually using one of my skills, instead of just having a buff applied to me, so retaliation is still better…
OK, thx.
Context – as in ‘anything’ any of the so-called problems with retal, not anything as in anything in the world, learn to interpret what people say instead of taking everything literally.
There is parity in my jest, had you bothered to look for it. If cool downs are a clumsy way to “fix” issues, then why do they keep nerfing my profession with them, destroying any advantage to my high-frequency/low-damage skills?
If it is good enough to destroy the usefulness of one of my kits (since I can’t swap weapons) in WvW, applying it to Retaliation should be fine as well. Or at least scale it to the incoming damage with a higher cap of some sort. At least then, it would be useful in all modes of play, and every guardian’s dungeon DPS automatically goes up.
Why should I be penalized for attacking you if you are just going to stand there in the red circle and grin like an idiot?
The nerf was necessary and should be applied to every WvW map.
I found that the easiest way to deal with retaliation, as an engineer, is to stop playing guild wars 2. Haven’t had a problem since. After months of frustrating retaliation experience, I couldn’t believe the solution was that easy!
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