Retaliation Suggestion
It’s about risk/reward. If all you count on is to burst an unsuspecting player down in 5 seconds then retaliation should indeed pose a major counter. Slower hitting players have the risk of a drawn out fight that includes many other factors.
It’s about risk/reward. If all you count on is to burst an unsuspecting player down in 5 seconds then retaliation should indeed pose a major counter. Slower hitting players have the risk of a drawn out fight that includes many other factors.
Stack some retaliation. Get hit. Profit!$$$$$
It’s about risk/reward. If all you count on is to burst an unsuspecting player down in 5 seconds then retaliation should indeed pose a major counter. Slower hitting players have the risk of a drawn out fight that includes many other factors.
Except that’s not how it works anymore.
You have attacks hitting for 10k+ every few seconds that retal barely has any effect on, and then you have weapons that are rendered nearly useless like flamethrower or ranger shortbow.
You aren’t bursting anyone down with ranger shortbow, your kitten near hurting yourself more than your opponent because it’s direct damage is crap but it hits so fast.
Anyway I don’t think that’s why the op is suggesting the internal cooldown. This isn’t about 1v1’s, this is about whole builds being completely useless in large scale fights because retal is almost always passively up and shooting into a zerg will kill you without even slowing the enemy zerg.
Jim Hunter when my other account isn’t suspended
Try being a Necro as Ghastly Claws procs retal on each of the 8 hits. Necro Dagger #2 “Life Siphon” procs retal with each of it’s 9 hit’s. That 8 hits or 9 hits still do not hit as hard as an Eviscerate or a Backstab yet, take 8 to 9 times more damage from retal. The “Risk vs Reward” is functioning in an exactly opposite manner. Retal is also extremely “anti skill” as it has nearly perma upkeep in WvW fights.
[AwM] of Jade Quarry.
It’s about risk/reward. If all you count on is to burst an unsuspecting player down in 5 seconds then retaliation should indeed pose a major counter. Slower hitting players have the risk of a drawn out fight that includes many other factors.
Except that’s not how it works anymore.
You have attacks hitting for 10k+ every few seconds that retal barely has any effect on, and then you have weapons that are rendered nearly useless like flamethrower or ranger shortbow.
You aren’t bursting anyone down with ranger shortbow, your kitten near hurting yourself more than your opponent because it’s direct damage is crap but it hits so fast.Anyway I don’t think that’s why the op is suggesting the internal cooldown. This isn’t about 1v1’s, this is about whole builds being completely useless in large scale fights because retal is almost always passively up and shooting into a zerg will kill you without even slowing the enemy zerg.
Yep, you can burst someone down within 5 seconds from slower hitting attacks too, taking minimal retaliation damage. All of the listed fast hitting skills and several more are punished too much even just in 1v1 scenarios. In zergs the problem is much worse, to the point where using some of these skills will kill yourself in a few seconds, even if you don’t get hit by anything else besides the retaliation.
Is it really bursting if they’re slow attacks? At least you can dodge them as opposed to wasting all stamina to avoid one rapid attack. I can’t even begin to describe the amount of pew pew rangers or thieves that shadow step to crit several times then pop back. Retaliation gives them pause (or at least should to the skilled/observant user). I still believe it’s a good counter measure for the rapid crit happy people out there. Don’t like facing retaliation? Wait it out, use a less punishing skill, boon strip, etc.
Is it really bursting if they’re slow attacks? At least you can dodge them as opposed to wasting all stamina to avoid one rapid attack. I can’t even begin to describe the amount of pew pew rangers or thieves that shadow step to crit several times then pop back. Retaliation gives them pause (or at least should to the skilled/observant user). I still believe it’s a good counter measure for the rapid crit happy people out there. Don’t like facing retaliation? Wait it out, use a less punishing skill, boon strip, etc.
As usual, the useless suggestion of ‘wait it out, use a less punishing skill, etc’ rears it’s ugly head.
Please, go try and play some of the characters that have as their main skills aoe skills and low armor ratings. Retal can literally kill rangers passively from one barrage (hits a warrior for say 1k damage, warrior ticks 500 auto heal, retal hits back 5 times 300-400 per tick). Or try using a bubble as a mesmer against a retal heavy zerg, just have your main heal ready to waste otherwise you might be downed within 2-3 seconds.
You can even cast an aoe in a bit of open field and the zerg runs through it and you are near death- without any enemy being anywhere near you or taking any offensive action at all.
Retal is an awful passive damage dealer in wvw and needs an internal cooldown so it only procs on you once per second. Good enough for small fights and 1v1, and makes more classes viable to play in larger scale wvw.
Then again, thiefs skills need an internal delay between uses and that hasn’t been addressed yet. It’s annoying being venomed and hit for 14k of spam macro attacks inside 0.25 seconds whilst being rooted on 1700 (2700? armor rating) armor leaving me with 4-5k of hp before a fight has even started, and with no chance of being able to run away against a super speedy distance eating stealthed toon.. Not a problem on my guard as aegis has a wonderful effect on thiefs trying to macro you:-)
WvW player. Doing another world completion for my next Legendary. Hater of mini-games.
Is it really bursting if they’re slow attacks? At least you can dodge them as opposed to wasting all stamina to avoid one rapid attack. I can’t even begin to describe the amount of pew pew rangers or thieves that shadow step to crit several times then pop back. Retaliation gives them pause (or at least should to the skilled/observant user). I still believe it’s a good counter measure for the rapid crit happy people out there. Don’t like facing retaliation? Wait it out, use a less punishing skill, boon strip, etc.
As usual, the useless suggestion of ‘wait it out, use a less punishing skill, etc’ rears it’s ugly head.
Please, go try and play some of the characters that have as their main skills aoe skills and low armor ratings.
If you’re not willing to accept perfectly sensible and common ways of dealing with it then I’m not sure what else to tell you. (You left out boon strip btw)
Also, I do play classes that main AoE and I do fine.
Is it really bursting if they’re slow attacks? At least you can dodge them as opposed to wasting all stamina to avoid one rapid attack. I can’t even begin to describe the amount of pew pew rangers or thieves that shadow step to crit several times then pop back. Retaliation gives them pause (or at least should to the skilled/observant user). I still believe it’s a good counter measure for the rapid crit happy people out there. Don’t like facing retaliation? Wait it out, use a less punishing skill, boon strip, etc.
As usual, the useless suggestion of ‘wait it out, use a less punishing skill, etc’ rears it’s ugly head.
Please, go try and play some of the characters that have as their main skills aoe skills and low armor ratings.
If you’re not willing to accept perfectly sensible and common ways of dealing with it then I’m not sure what else to tell you. (You left out boon strip btw)
Also, I do play classes that main AoE and I do fine.
Not all classes have boon removal…..
Even if they did retal is up so much that the reapplication of retal will likely happen without your opponent even trying to do it, especially in a zerg.
And for your earlier question the answer is yes, skills that deal 10k+ damage on a 4 or 5 second cooldown are definitely burst skills. Channeled and fast hitting auto attacks that take 10-20 seconds to do the same amount of damage are not burst skills.
Jim Hunter when my other account isn’t suspended
I always felt that retaliation could have been done where it was based on a percentage of damage recieved (affected by power). That way small fast attacks would still be punishing but not as much as now. Slow hard hitting attacks would be higher retaliation damage. You could set it that it only affected a maximum 5 enemies.
If you really want you could put in ICD on it as mentioned by the poster above, you could but i wouldnt want it too large.
Your typical average gamer -
“Buff my main class, nerf everything else. "
“Buff my main class, nerf everything else. "
Is it really bursting if they’re slow attacks? At least you can dodge them as opposed to wasting all stamina to avoid one rapid attack. I can’t even begin to describe the amount of pew pew rangers or thieves that shadow step to crit several times then pop back. Retaliation gives them pause (or at least should to the skilled/observant user). I still believe it’s a good counter measure for the rapid crit happy people out there. Don’t like facing retaliation? Wait it out, use a less punishing skill, boon strip, etc.
Unfortunately retaliation isn’t too difficult to have permanent up time on some classes/builds, so should these fast attacking builds just completely avoid someone with permanent retaliation? Since it’s a bit harder to avoid an entire fast hitting channeled attack than a single high damage burst attack, the fast hitting attacks should take about 10 times the damage from retaliation?
If you at least dodge through part of a Rapid Fire for instance, then the part that hits you wouldn’t be much stronger than the Ranger just auto attacking you anyway. It’s not like you have to avoid every hit from it or else you take it’s full damage. Vengeful Hammers on Revenants is rendered useless, if not a net negative, even against just a single enemy with retaliation. In bigger fights against possibly 5 enemies with retaliation, it can kill you in just a few seconds all by itself from retaliation damage. All of that for a skill that does minimal damage to the enemy in the first place.
With this proposed change, these fast hitting attacks would still largely take more damage than slow hitting attacks, but instead of it being about 10x as much damage for a Rapid Fire, it would be about 4 times as much, which seems much more fair. Also since retaliation would deal more damage overall(the 33% damage reduction in WvW/PvP being removed), an Unload or Rapid Fire would still take about half as much damage as they do now in retaliation with the 0.75s cool down, which is still a sizable amount.
I always felt that retaliation could have been done where it was based on a percentage of damage recieved (affected by power). That way small fast attacks would still be punishing but not as much as now. Slow hard hitting attacks would be higher retaliation damage. You could set it that it only affected a maximum 5 enemies.
If you really want you could put in ICD on it as mentioned by the poster above, you could but i wouldnt want it too large.
I guess that depends if Anet feels that glass cannon builds need more of a check from classes with retaliation access, or if they think retaliation should be stronger against glass cannons than against tanks since it currently ignores toughness.
Another thing that I think could be interesting is having retaliation stack in intensity rather than duration. Then each time you are struck it removes a stack and deals a fairly large amount of damage to the attacker(maybe like 1k damage per stack). It would probably still need an ICD for how fast each stack could be used up so someone couldn’t burst their self down too fast in retaliation when attacking someone else with multiple retaliation stacks. This would make retaliation more of a temporary deterrence I think like what Dhemize was suggesting. Obviously that would require quite a bit more work rebalancing all of the skills/traits that currently grant retaliation though.
Really annoyed that this wasn’t looked at with the recent patch. Retal needs to be fixed right after you get rid of the baseline venoms.
Also known as Puck when my account isn’t suspended
LGN
LGN