Reversing Waypoint mechanics

Reversing Waypoint mechanics

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Posted by: Weli.4568

Weli.4568

Would it be possible to reverse some of the waypoint changes that happened? To me the worst change was not being able to use the side keep waypoints on home bl as those were the access to swiftly travelling the map and being able to defend capped objectives at the enemy corner. Because to me the keeps are not worth keeping at least now, when the travel times are way longer than what it takes to capture a keep. Unless you are really keen on having those extra 25 points for the next tick. But this is just my opinion.

What do you, rest of the brave forum warriors, think?

Scatter the Weak [WK], Extraordinary Gentlemen [EXG]
Desolation

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Posted by: gennyt.3428

gennyt.3428

I agree. If you have the keep, you should be able to use the waypoint. I was a little disheartened that after years, Anet still didn’t realize how much activity buzzed around protecting and breaking waypoints.

Whispers with meat.

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Posted by: inubasiri.8745

inubasiri.8745

Well they’re not worth keeping for you and they’re very worth keeping for the enemy whose WP is in there. I can see why ANet did what they did, since before you could snowball and fortify all the WPs in your BL and it was harder for invaders to get into the BL. But the overall value of the objective has lowered and people don’t want to fight over it. It should rather give some advantage to the BL defender rather than the ability to use the actual WP.

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

They already moved them after community pressure (was supposed to be on the border towers, completely pointless). I dont think they have any intentions to fix it further. Instead they bugfixed (ie broke) them with the removal of the contest interval.

You know that saying “one step forward, two steps back”? It doesnt apply to Anet. They take one step forward, spins around randomly, take three drunken steps to the right, trips over their own legs, jump two steps back and somehow still manages to end up head down in a ditch 20 steps to the left.

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Posted by: lil devils x.6071

lil devils x.6071

Yes, it is utterly stupid to not have WP for whoever owns the keep. I would even take this a step further, the same as they are doing with Camelot Unchained.. If you take an area , it is yours to use as you see fit, along with anything your opponents built on it. Yes that would mean if they built siege in that keep that is yours to use as you will or allow to despawn. To the winners the spoils.

[KILL]Killing Tiers Leader [TOON] Toons of Terror Leader [NEWS This Just In Leader
WvW / PVP ONLY

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

If you take an area , it is yours to use as you see fit, along with anything your opponents built on it. Yes that would mean if they built siege in that keep that is yours to use as you will or allow to despawn. To the winners the spoils.

Agree about the siege. IMO just make everything T3 with no upgrades and whoever owns it, owns it as is including any damage they did to take it. If they don’t repair the gate they went through, another side can waltz right in and take it. Remove RI as well. Course I would also not contest a WP until there is a breach and it would stay contested until all breaches are sealed.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

(edited by Straegen.2938)

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Posted by: Puck.9612

Puck.9612

They already moved them after community pressure (was supposed to be on the border towers, completely pointless). I dont think they have any intentions to fix it further. Instead they bugfixed (ie broke) them with the removal of the contest interval.

You know that saying “one step forward, two steps back”? It doesnt apply to Anet. They take one step forward, spins around randomly, take three drunken steps to the right, trips over their own legs, jump two steps back and somehow still manages to end up head down in a ditch 20 steps to the left.

+1 lol

Jim Hunter when my other account isn’t suspended

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Posted by: FogLeg.9354

FogLeg.9354

It makes no sense to reverse waypoint system but keep the new upgrade mechanics. Let me explain:

  • old system – you got WP in any keep as long you managed to upgrade it to Tier 3. Upgrading cost gold and required a lot of sups from the nearby camps. All the sups could also be spent by any troll to build pointless siege. It was also horrible against nightcapping servers who had tier 3 keeps with WP in every map and could defend them easily during the day.
  • new system – you get 1 WP in every BL map if you capture that specific keep. Does not require upgrades. Yes, I do prefer this as it does not allow one server dominate over every map as easily.

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Posted by: Weli.4568

Weli.4568

But there’s really no gain on getting that keep away from the enemy other than the extra 25 points per tick. As you can’t utilize that waypoint. And lets be honest, it wasn’t that hard to for example upgrade Bay to have waypoint. As the camps were close and all you needed was someone motivated enough to run few dolly’s and some pocket change for the upgrades.

Sure you could change it that the waypoint comes with the last upgrade batch instead of right after capturing. But having waypoint right after capturing did make stuff easier to defend when you could actually waypoint in between the contest times. Now it’s just useless unless you have emergency waypoint. (Haven’t tried out how those work in side keeps on home bl tho) But seems kind of waste of effort to me when the previous system was working fine.

Scatter the Weak [WK], Extraordinary Gentlemen [EXG]
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Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

Would it be possible to reverse some of the waypoint changes that happened? To me the worst change was not being able to use the side keep waypoints on home bl as those were the access to swiftly travelling the map and being able to defend capped objectives at the enemy corner. Because to me the keeps are not worth keeping at least now, when the travel times are way longer than what it takes to capture a keep. Unless you are really keen on having those extra 25 points for the next tick. But this is just my opinion.

What do you, rest of the brave forum warriors, think?

What do you mean by the travel times are longer than to capture the keep?

Besides that, I think that some good did come of the WP changes. Namely, since getting a Garri WP broken isn’t such a huge deal anymore, it doesn’t boot a server out of competitiveness. Thus, when pressured by a much larger server, it’s easier to spring back after getting steamrolled. Before, there was little point in trying to retake Garri since it wouldn’t offer much benefit before the K-Train came back to raze it again.

Also, the side keep waypoints were mostly the domain of the dominant servers. They were a significant part of snowballing the match since that server’s borderland was essentially impervious to attack.

I think that, along with Emergency Waypoints and no more between-contest traveling, the change is a good idea. Losing an emergency WP is probably more expensive than losing one of the normal kind and also takes at least thirty minutes to slot in. It should be worth defending. Also, since it requires the use of a lever, there are ways to play around it and it is more flexible defensively than just waiting for the timer to pop.

That said, it was a nice thing that was taken away in the hopes of a healthier game going forward. It’s going to suck for everyone that was weaned on the old system—no matter how well it does going forward.

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Posted by: X T D.6458

X T D.6458

My biggest problem with the waypoint change, is that it’s available instantly, no effort required to upgrade for it, its just there immediately. This makes your home bl never really feel right because you are not even able to use those waypoints on the side keeps…on your own bl….

Make the waypoint part of an upgrade tier for keeps, idc which. And allow waypoints to be built by whoever owns the keep. Exceptions for Home keeps in eb and BL Garrisons.

This way, everyone, would be able to once again have a waypoint in a keep, so you actually have incentive to protect your own home bl and it will feel like its actually yours. And it would actually require some time to build instead of being immediately available.

I say what needs to be said, get used to it.
Honesty is not insulting, stupidity is.
>Class Balance is a Joke<

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Posted by: FogLeg.9354

FogLeg.9354

EB keeps are good example where the change has made game better, dominating server can not so easily take over whole map now, and then hold it forever, spawncamping smaller servers. It was big problem before HoT. I honestly do not think old system was “fine”, it had problems too and Anet tried to address those with the new system. It’s not perfect either but it can be adjusted without returning to the old broken system.

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Posted by: Aezyr.5304

Aezyr.5304

EB keeps are good example where the change has made game better, dominating server can not so easily take over whole map now, and then hold it forever, spawncamping smaller servers. It was big problem before HoT. I honestly do not think old system was “fine”, it had problems too and Anet tried to address those with the new system. It’s not perfect either but it can be adjusted without returning to the old broken system.

I think the insta waypoints in the home eb keep and in garrison is a realy good solution. With the old system it made it harder for a server to catch up. On the other hand I think waypoints in the side keeps on the borders should be part of the upgrade process.

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Posted by: inubasiri.8745

inubasiri.8745

But there’s really no gain on getting that keep away from the enemy other than the extra 25 points per tick. As you can’t utilize that waypoint.

Yes, but that’s just from your point of view. From the other side, it means that enemies don’t have a WP mid-way to garri, which makes it harder to navigate the map. If BLs saw actual zerg v zerg battles more, it would have had a greater impact.

In theory, if you lose control of an outer keep, you need to focus on defending gari from that side and have to allow the third side greater freedom, so they get a chance to take their outer keep with a smaller force, while there are blob fights going on between keep and gari on the other side. That’s where those “irrelevant” gari side towers come to play, since they don’t as much actually check land (with trebs aiming at adjacent objectives as it is in EB) as they would support a side’s blob.

The point of insta WPs is that the blob doesn’t need to wait 3 hours to get a WP built, but can immediately start forcing fights. I think it was an attempt by ANet to actually please the WvW community.

(edited by inubasiri.8745)

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Posted by: lil devils x.6071

lil devils x.6071

My biggest problem with the waypoint change, is that it’s available instantly, no effort required to upgrade for it, its just there immediately. This makes your home bl never really feel right because you are not even able to use those waypoints on the side keeps…on your own bl….

Make the waypoint part of an upgrade tier for keeps, idc which. And allow waypoints to be built by whoever owns the keep. Exceptions for Home keeps in eb and BL Garrisons.

This way, everyone, would be able to once again have a waypoint in a keep, so you actually have incentive to protect your own home bl and it will feel like its actually yours. And it would actually require some time to build instead of being immediately available.

I agree, the auto WP is why no one cares to defend anything anymore. It doesn’t matter if you lose the WP if you can get it right back with less work to recap than it takes to defend it. Losing and recapping should not be a better option than defending it, and it currently is.

[KILL]Killing Tiers Leader [TOON] Toons of Terror Leader [NEWS This Just In Leader
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Posted by: Hule.8794

Hule.8794

Mostly what I read here is about mechanics. Like is it better to enemy run throught map or just save few steps and wp.
But noone talked about primal mechanics aka defending/attacking.
Defenders are bound to certain areas and thus having a way to get there is really crucial. Defenders cannot just say, ok lets go other keep and try to flip it. Defenders can just say: hey they are attacking that keep we need to defend it.
But attackers, with or without WP, have freedom where to go. They can even go 2 other maps.
If a group comes to enemy bl, its basicly their choice to go there and attack. They can choose if they will go west,east,south or north and try to sneak or brute force inside a keep or tower.
Defenders then needs to rally their forces and go defend.

And this is the primal mechanics = clash between servers.
WvW maps should not be about if you can get to camp in 20 seconds or 22 seconds.
WvW mechanics should not be about saving steps to guys who can choose what ever target on the map they want.
WvW should be about servers fighting and it does not matter if small groups or large groups or roamers either open field or siege.

While current DBL is “big” map thanks to current mechanics its small.
Attackers have advantage with side keeps and their waypoints, but this also limits them.It limits their targets.
While on Alpine with old WP system(i dont mean upgrades) most fights happened between bay-gari-hills with priority on side keeps, on current DBL fights rarely happens at south making half of the map useless.

To better understand what I mean lets make an example.
Alpine:
Two attackers group,one 25 man keep/tower flippers and one 5 man group camp/tower flippers. Same on defending side.
Because its easy to see enemies in Alpine, defenders take care of south and are able to spot attackers fast and call 25 defenders to bay to assist with defense. This results in “longer” fight/sieging in bay with 50 man “having fun” Spells flying everywhere, commanders calling their people, siege being built, gate finally down, lets fallback to inner.
At same time 5 attackers can go 10 additional targets. This also result in lets say siege of southeast tower aka Lake tower. Because defenders see swords, 5 defenders Wp to hills and rush to Lake tower to defend it.
This result in another fight.
Rinse and repeat for other objectives and people will be able to fight everywhere and every tower/camp is valuable. Either like a passive scout point (swords) or active (scouts in towers).
Most fights happen at south(if not heavily outnumbering enemies) while keeping north open to rushes.

DBL:
Attackers have clear advantage and flips fire keep very fast. One problem is the area fire keep have. While in Alpine, its easy for scouts to see whats happening, on DBL its much harder as the keep is very “full”. This will result in lower time of alarm, thus defenders will just not care about fire keep mostly.
With south tower already belongs to attackers, camp was flipped on way to keep(same on alpine) 5 attackers have 8 possible targets. If we talk about east south tower, defenders will just not care because that tower is too far and basic map mechanics are telling them it was never their tower. Its enemy tower from the start. Route and travel time is favouring this mentality.
Now with this attackers gain 3 structures without even trying.
This severly limited another possible targets as north west (academy) tower is better accesible from fire keep. And this is not only about mere location of the tower, but also about “rotation” of the tower. Have you ever seen army that build fortress with gate towards enemy land? Most fortresses have gates facing their own lands aka away from enemies (no that back portal is not the main entrance).

Now the difference I wanted to say is that on Alpine, attackers had a choice where to go and defenders had a chance to defend. On DBL, with Waypoints really helping this, its just Gari that is worth saving.
On Alpine not having north towers meant that your gari will be trebed. On DBL not having north towers it means you wil loose some PPT.
On Alpine north having bay/hills and waypoints in it meant for defenders that they lost control of the map and needs to recap it. On DBL it just means that they lost some PPT.

So WP should be made usable to any server having the keep.(with contested WP by hit the gate, that will prevent enemies using gari WP all the time) And WP should be Tier 2 in upgrade. It should not be instant but it should not take long. But having all enemies just WP to keep after you just flipped it and maybe just because you managed to keep enemy group of the circle that is just bad.

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Posted by: inubasiri.8745

inubasiri.8745

imho DBL is about immediate fights and less about long-term strategy (like ABL was). My preference is strategy over fights, but there are people who prefer fights over strategy.

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Posted by: HazyDaisy.4107

HazyDaisy.4107

When we revert to ABL, I honestly see no problem with invaders not having an insta wp in hills or bay. Even defense could get by without them IF they had to. Many lower servers went weeks or months without them and navigated just fine. The size of ABL does not justify giving ANYONE further footing by giving them insta wps.

Enemy wps in the current BL however irritating are unfortunately a necessity because of the sheer size. But insta-wps, especially in keeps were a huge step backwards imo.

I was never a fan of auto upgrades at all, but specifically the wp availability to an invading server, regardless if I am on the invading server, its simply unfair. There’s no counter either, once defense backcaps, it’s just a waiting game for the enemy to return. It provides no incentive for defense to do anything like upgrade or call additional forces in to fight, it doesn’t provide incentive for invaders to defend. It only cuts the map in half for invading zergs and punishes those that used to defend by now gives the enemy a wall to hide behind and no reason to come down and fight in the open.

To that respect, you must look at the auto upgrade process itself. Fortify and WPS should be the last upgrade available to anyone, it should be available to both enemy and defender in any keep in any BL and regardless of whether it’s qued automatically or if a human presses a button, someone should have to jump down off the walls to make sure the dolyaks make it to the keeps ok. There is no incentive to do any of this now, and if this system is transferred to ABL, there won’t be any incentive to do it there either.

Sorrows Furnace
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Posted by: Svarty.8019

Svarty.8019

I have no idea why they changed these in the first place. It removed so much gameplay ><

Nobody at Anet loves WvW like Grouch loved PvP. That’s what we need, a WvW Grouch, but taller.

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Posted by: Terrier.8732

Terrier.8732

I’d prefer the old wp system back, earned through manually triggered upgrades, T3 only, and usable by whoever holds them. At least there was some Home Borderland pride and motivation in the old system. And the challenge of going to attack an enemy borderland when it was locked down well was a far more thrilling adventure that brought great fights and strategy.

Emergency wp’s would still be useful when WP’s are contested. They cost enough to unlock and scribe as to be used sparingly.