Guild Wars 2

Now that the initial excitement/disgust from this addition to WvW has long since passed, what do people now think of the Ruins area in the centre of the borderlands, and the associated Bloodlust buff?

It was highly controversial when it was introduced. Alot of people were dismayed at the Bloodlust buff creating further imbalance, but many others were glad to see a previously empty part of the map become a playground of sorts for roamers, with more complex terrain than other areas of the map.
Then, during Season 1, it became an achievement farm, with PvE trains running around it in circles.

My impression now, is that the area is almost completely ignored once again. Guild raids and public zergs only ever go there as a shortcut between keeps. Occasionally “Ego’s Ascent” is used as an easily defended point for trebs/catas to hit Lake tower. But mostly the area is ignored by the larger groups.

My impression now is that even roamers are deserting this area. There are still a few determined souls trying to help their server by capping the buff, but most roamers prefer either the area south of the ruins, between the two spawn towers, for skirmishes, or are now going to EoTM. They only dive into the ruins area as an escape when they run into a zerg.

And what about the Bloodlust buff itself? 90% of the time it seems to be evenly split 3-ways (minor for everyone). I do see some servers making a dedicated effort to hold all 3 buffs on reset nights, but most of the time nobody seems to be making a serious effort to hold it. Occasionally someone gets Major, but 90% of the time it seems to be Minor. Superior I almost never see. Infact, rather than being as overpowered and gamebreaking as many feared, it appears to have very little impact.

Does this mean that the Ruins and Bloodlust are a waste of real estate? Could they be put to a better use? Or is my experience of it, in EU T2-T4 not reflected in other tiers/regions?

Ragnar.4257:

Does this mean that the Ruins and Bloodlust are a waste of real estate? Could they be put to a better use? Or is my experience of it, in EU T2-T4 not reflected in other tiers/regions?

I think is is a waste of space yes, I would even rather see the krait come back than have these ruins. The whole middle section now just feels completely different from the rest of the border in the sense that you almost feel you are in spvp rather than wvw, this creates an immersion break for me, and makes the border feel like its wearing odd socks.

Vavume.8065:

Ragnar.4257:

Does this mean that the Ruins and Bloodlust are a waste of real estate? Could they be put to a better use? Or is my experience of it, in EU T2-T4 not reflected in other tiers/regions?

I think is is a waste of space yes, I would even rather see the krait come back than have these ruins. The whole middle section now just feels completely different from the rest of the border in the sense that you almost feel you are in spvp rather than wvw, this creates an immersion break for me, and makes the border feel like its wearing odd socks.

100% this. Unfortunately, this looks like the style of maps we’re going to be getting here on out — EoTM is very similar (except worse, IMO).

Has anyone ever built the siege in there?

Lord Kuru.3685:

Vavume.8065:

Ragnar.4257:

Does this mean that the Ruins and Bloodlust are a waste of real estate? Could they be put to a better use? Or is my experience of it, in EU T2-T4 not reflected in other tiers/regions?

I think is is a waste of space yes, I would even rather see the krait come back than have these ruins. The whole middle section now just feels completely different from the rest of the border in the sense that you almost feel you are in spvp rather than wvw, this creates an immersion break for me, and makes the border feel like its wearing odd socks.

100% this. Unfortunately, this looks like the style of maps we’re going to be getting here on out — EoTM is very similar (except worse, IMO).

Has anyone ever built the siege in there?

Yeah, we sometimes build cats/trebs in Hollow (Briar) and Ascent (Lake). Both spots are decent for small-group sieges against moderately defended towers because there are some good choke points to use if the enemy tries to push back.

heh, ive popped off 2 shots of a master cannon to win a zvz, that was amusing (at the coliseum)

we probably could use a tower or keep or some kinda objective in the dead center as a hook to really get use out of the area.

Well you could build siege there and treb something, but if you need to treb something it’s not really worth it to take. Easier go and take something empty and paper.

If there was a tangible objective there then the space would be used.

The Ruins are great artistic but poorly implemented.

It looks beautiful, but it’s completely useless. It needs objectives worth taking that are move than stats modifiers but have an impact on the gameplay.

1. Stats

At least on my server the bloodlust buffs are not evenly distributed. In our current match up one side generally holds all of the buffs (and that is not our side). +50 to all stats is nothing small, like an extra ascended amulet:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Triforge_Pendant_

All sorts of map/server wide stats should be removed as they really skew the match up and make it feel unfair. We already have serious coverage differences and crazily outnumbered fights, so why to make the uphill battle even harder?! I remember when our server has been having all the three BL bloodbuffs and I have had full guardleech + applied fortitude + hefty vitality bonus from Power of the Mists. The combination makes the game very forgiving. One can play WvWvW for so many hours and not die a single time and collect gazillion loot bags, until one finally needs to grab something to eat or go to sleep.

2. Aesthetics

Aesthetically the ruins is mess. Spvp/tpvp map dropped in the middle of a map, replacing the lake. The transition from other parts of the WvWvW map just feels very weird, breaking immersion. Like a different artist had created a new painting in the middle of a master piece. I am not telling that ruins is 100% bad. Surely some trees, small nook etc. there are nicely placed and it has some nice details like the sunken amphitheater (part of Battle’s Hollow), but in general it looks like a bloated expansion of the Southern middle island, which is also called ruins.

I like scenery which looks like real nature and actually big part of original WvWvW maps and original pve zones fit that description (never mind the exaggerated elevations). In my own works I very often use the classic rules, like golden ratio, and the classic stuff is sadly missing here as well.

3. Lake

Deleting of the lake was a bad idea, because:
- it robbed the only large water area from entire pvp part of the game. This was a good test bed for large to small scale underwater combat and place for those who actually enjoy the underwater side. Now where to play test underwater combat? Bay? The tiny ditch in Raid of the Capricorn?
- water is siege free area
- nobody was forcing anybody to enter the lake, one could always go around it, thus underwater was optional for those who hate it
- It’s removal made solo roaming harder (water is the ultimate escape place for those professions who don’t rely on stealth)

The unfortunately changes decreased the variety in this game, steering even more players towards either of these two play styles: zerging or ganking.

I wish all the borderland changes would be reverted back. At least until something better is invented.

A long time ago I suggested that the lake would actually have its own tiny keep/tower, having perhaps some special purpose and much smaller area above the water than even some towers have, but be partially submerged underneath the water. Like a tower which is partially sunk under the water, but not as cramped as you might first visualize in your head, not some tight labyrinth (would hate that personally), but more like a giant stone octopus. This would once again offer more variety to the game as most siege doesn’t work underwater, making attacking and defense require different tactics.

I know that not everybody will like this idea, but once again it would increase variety in a large-scale player-vs-player manner. Having the current, contest yet another node, isn’t more variety, but just copy & paste from spvp.

I don’t miss the lake and the Quaggan. Nothing interesting ever happened there and it was effectively a waste of space.

But the ruins aren’t much better either.

1. Yes, there’s the aesthetic clash of having what looks like an sPvP map in the center of a comparatively bland WvW map. It looks odd and it plays odd.

2. Then there’s the capture mechanic, which is just standing around a lot. It’s not fun and there’s rarely fights over the buff. People will just wait for you to leave and then cap it back rather than fight over it.

3. The buff is far too important for the overall score. Something like 30% of the total WvW score comes from finishers. So maintaining a single buff is essential. For something to important though, it’s incredibly boring.

4. In no PvP MMO have people every enjoyed fighting over buffs. It’s just not an interesting or compelling objective to fight over.

I’d call the whole thing a total waste that didn’t improve WvW in the slightest.

It’s a shame people don’t fight over them more.
Had some great single-group action holding 3/5.

What they need to do is make it so that a SINGLE PLAYER can cap bloodlust for their team.

Currently it requires at least 2.

If a single player (unhindered) could cap bloodlust for their server, it would create a lot more action in the ruins IMO.

Bloodlust and the design to get it are redundant and need to be removed.

Instead keep all that design including the cap points. Then introduce periodic map wide meta events on one of the five points. This is to draw players from all sides to the location where’by everyone does battle over the spot for various rewards (a ppt boost, or a strategic supply dump, or unique siege prints, or whatever).

The point being that bloodlust is pointless, annoying to pursue, and usually ends up stacked in the hands of highly populated servers vs lower ones. So get rid of it and at least make it something important to fight over. Something that draws enemies out from behind their walls to actual engage other players, or face the consequences.

Personally I wish they’d kept the Quaggan lake and then made a new map using what they made from the ruins and build on it, then rotate the maps.

People would have maps they preferred so people would still complain (different dog with different fleas).

But the fact that we simply lost the Quaggan lake is a disappointment.

Well, almost everybody agrees that it is not worthy to pursue the BL, yet it significantly affects the server scoring (easily 1/3 of the server points come from stomping!).

The problem of making BL matter even more is that seriously outnumbered servers are gonna be screwed even worse. We should really avoid design choices to make this game almost impossible uphill battle. The downward spiral happens very easily. E.g. yesterday I was playing in Eternal Battlegrounds. We were outnumbered all the time (having that rather useless outnumbered “buff” on us). At one point our numbers dropped to as low as about 7. We saw Gunnar’s Hold run in a blob of 30 something, which is not that big, but impossible to win in an open battle with less than 10. Then we saw GH having built multiple golems. Simply nothing to do as the TS channels were empty (no reinforcements). I decided to have some snack. We lost everything from the map. Somebody turned on the commander tag and a few more people joined in. Next the other server, Augury Rock comes to stomp over our small group. I managed to flee and eventually got killed in a different part of the map, trying to alone defend our last spot on the map (supply camp). I didn’t rage quit, but our commander did and lots of others just left the map. I cannot blame them. We got things back normal when our very good Russian guild came to the map.

If anet insists to keep the ruins, I think they should only serve as a method for that particular borderland to provide NPC related defensive bonuses and structural bonuses (stronger doors, walls, siege equipment etc). These bonuses should ONLY affect that particular server’s own borderland and ONLY when it is outnumbered. Thus if it is server A borderland, only server A can get this bonus, but enemy can try to deny it by preventing them to hold these bonuses. Thus server B and C can never get any BL benefits on enemy BLs.

The BL bonuses should NOT be stretched over other maps. The reasoning behind my suggestion is that: it would allow the outnumbered defenders to significantly delay the outnumbering opposing forces. E.g. let’s say holding each circle would give +20% more health to NPC and structures (siege equipment, walls, doors). Holding all 5 points would double 5x +20% = +100%, which is a significant increase. Doors would still melt fast with 4-6 omega/guild golems (like my small story above illustrates), but this another sad issue, which needs addressing.

These bonuses should NOT be active when the server doesn’t have an outnumbered buff on it, since it would once again make the game almost mission impossible for the outnumbered side on the map.

Note: I was suggesting only vitality buffs to NPCs and structures and only on the outnumbered side. Player based bonuses are way too easily abused (imagine a full berserker thief with +100% buff = double health… them running in pairs on the side having these buffs and ganking those who they want with extremely little risk). Adding offensive bonuses is a really bad idea and just adds to the power creep.

Big problem: NO matter how you design these bonuses (even my suggestion), the side with higher numbers vs very low numbers has a superior advantage. E.g. imagine you have just 1 player + 2 upleveled allies. I have been commanding in such situation. The level 2 guardian is not that bad. He dies to almost anything and some other commanders might call him a rallybot, but I rather have even level 2 character on my side, because he can still carry supplies and the rams, ACs and catapults get built faster. Any 3 people is better than just one or two if you want to capture towers and keeps faster! But if you have so few people and even if you 10 people on the map (typical situation!!), it doesn’t make any sense to split them and send them all over the map to cap these bonuses.

Thus the final conclusion: the whole 5 point capping idea simply does not work for WvWvW. It will always end up favoring the side with bigger numbers and the one with very low number of players isn’t able to benefit from them.

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Vavume.8065:

Ragnar.4257:

Does this mean that the Ruins and Bloodlust are a waste of real estate? Could they be put to a better use? Or is my experience of it, in EU T2-T4 not reflected in other tiers/regions?

I think is is a waste of space yes, I would even rather see the krait come back than have these ruins. The whole middle section now just feels completely different from the rest of the border in the sense that you almost feel you are in spvp rather than wvw, this creates an immersion break for me, and makes the border feel like its wearing odd socks.

100% this. Unfortunately, this looks like the style of maps we’re going to be getting here on out — EoTM is very similar (except worse, IMO).

Has anyone ever built the siege in there?

Yeah, we sometimes build cats/trebs in Hollow (Briar) and Ascent (Lake). Both spots are decent for small-group sieges against moderately defended towers because there are some good choke points to use if the enemy tries to push back.

Yeah.. there are some good spots for regular siege… but there are cannons or something can can be built, right? Anyone ever use those besides just for lulz?

There needs to be a central supply camp there. Something to focus the action. Gives a lot of dolyaks for hills bay and two smaller towers, not garrison.

In addition, capping those ruins should spawn NPCs that go or specific camps and contest them. Wasted opportunity but chances are we will have new maps at some point

I only ever see the ruins held when there is a daily point for them. Then you can watch as one person after another caps them in turn for a random color, and then runs away and never comes back. I reckon this makes for some easy kills for roamers on unwary zerglings just trying to get the dailies. But other than that, it seems they’re ignored.

You don’t get it.

There is no WXP or ascended mats rewarded for flipping the bloodlust. That’s why nobody bothers to go there. The whole design is flawed by thinking that players would do something that would not benefit themselves, but others in the WvW.

The only thing worse than being highly controversial is being largely insignificant.

“Major WvW Update”

The ruins were great when the buff was 150 or whatever, now since sooo many people cried about it being OP it got nerfed into oblivion. now the buff isn’t worth the time to most people.

some people wanna play WvWvW but they don’t want actually contribute to the server, they want to play solo or roam for fights, so they are going into a situation where teamwork is key and cry because they got outnumbered in a 1v5.

raise the buff back to what it was and people will actually try to cap the bloodlust to help out their side.

Zepher.7803:

The ruins were great when the buff was 150 or whatever, now since sooo many people cried about it being OP it got nerfed into oblivion. now the buff isn’t worth the time to most people.

some people wanna play WvWvW but they don’t want actually contribute to the server, they want to play solo or roam for fights, so they are going into a situation where teamwork is key and cry because they got outnumbered in a 1v5.

raise the buff back to what it was and people will actually try to cap the bloodlust to help out their side.

You seem to have missed the point about most people NOT wanting to give more artificial power to servers, especially to the highest population server.

Or maybe you never cared for fair play.

Yes we can argue what’s fair and what’s not, population, coverage, blah blah blah. Fact is, no one asked for random server wide power creeps that have a big impact on the game, yet they were added anyway, despite the community outcry before implementation.

One server (the highest population server, who was going to win the match up anyway) having 150 stats on top of the other servers was absolutely monstrous. It was literally a joke.

During this stage, when duels were around the windmill still, our server had 1 buff, the other server we were dueling had 2 buffs. They had an extra 100 stats on top of us. I won every single duel against each of the people there. Then their server had all 3 buffs, they had 150 extra stats on top of us. I could then no longer beat some of them, even with multiple attempts, the power creep literally decided the fight.

Now its +30, +20, +10, for a total of +60 if you own all 3. It’s no where near as bad as it was, but it still shouldn’t be in the game.

Also, the stomps gave +1 score per buff, for a total of +3 on a stomp. We see that +1 has a large impact on the scores. Now imagine what +2 or +3 per stomp was doing.

Competitive game modes should never have power creeps to benefit a server like that, especially not when population imbalance and coverage wars are already the best power creep there is.
__________________

As for the topics question:

I like the way they were created, dynamic, very resourceful for strategy and quick thinkers, and good to look at, the problem is, there’s no real reason for anyone to go there, so it is always unpopulated.

The rest of the map is relatively flat, bleak, and not very complex, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Sometimes people cata/treb from carvers ascent to hit lake, or build a ballista at the arena thing to counter a briar treb from hitting bay, but that is it.

Most roamers hunt just north of South camp because they can flip all southern camps and catch players going to flip camps/towers. Since there are very few players coming through the ruins most of the solo crowd simply has no reason to go there.

Tom Gore.4035:

There is no WXP or ascended mats rewarded for flipping the bloodlust. That’s why nobody bothers to go there. The whole design is flawed by thinking that players would do something that would not benefit themselves, but others in the WvW.

This is a big part of the issue. The biggest reason is there is no natural funnel to route players through here so it ends up being a dead zone.

5 Months in… here’s my take.

I don’t care anymore about the ruins. They’re just in the way of my traveling across the map. Sure the one side by bay has some good places to hide a zerg for an ambush. It’s ultimately a waste of space. If they want to revitalize it heres what they can do:

In the center of the ruins add a tower with a Waypoint in it. The tower flips as a normal tower would. If the side who owns it has the bloodlust on that map then the tower also generates supply and has a maximum capacity of 300. The more points past the 3 required for bloodlust are owned the faster the tower generates supply.

Flipping all 5 bloodlust points while an enemy controls the tower will cause a lightning storm to hit the tower, destroying all siege inside of it and damaging gates/walls to 25%. It will also be set that the flipping control points is faster for the sides which do not control the tower.

There anet. You’re welcome. This will make the bloodlust actually have an impact on a map in addition to its current stats.

If we learned one thing from Bloodlust, its the Gw2 players don’t want anymore gimmicks.

Didn’t like it from the start, still don’t. This was probably the biggest single reason why I stopped playing on the borderlands, and why I stopped claiming stuff there too. I liked the quaagan weather nodes and there were plenty of small scale fights that went on underwater. Defending your quaggan node was a part of defending your keep.

The GvG crowd was never interested in staging their fights there so it never really took off. Too bad, because the 3D aspect of underwater fighting changes things radically.

I don’t hold out much hope for this part of the game, mostly because the guy in charge doesn’t listen or act on what players want, or don’t want. Ego’s Ascent, indeed.

Slightly off topic, but I haven’t contributed to the EoTM CDI for good reason. There is plenty that I don’t like about that map too, so I just don’t play there.

I would like to see them clear the middle and add a large structure instead. Think SM for the borderlands.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Slightly off topic, but I haven’t contributed to the EoTM CDI for good reason. There is plenty that I don’t like about that map too, so I just don’t play there.

Anet’s after-release map design has been pretty bad (IMO of course). They’re all way too busy and sPvP-like and have too many gimmicks. I think most WvW players like the rolling open fields rather than all the nooks and crannies that people losing fights can run and hide in.

As for people being selfish and not capping the points because there’s no reward… there are plenty of people who do stuff for no rewards (like scouts, siege builders, tower defenders) and capping the points only takes a few minutes anyway.

People can easily do it quickly as they run from garri towards any of the south camps/towers. They choose not to because the whole area sucks.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Didn’t like it from the start, still don’t. This was probably the biggest single reason why I stopped playing on the borderlands, and why I stopped claiming stuff there too. I liked the quaagan weather nodes and there were plenty of small scale fights that went on underwater. Defending your quaggan node was a part of defending your keep.

I feel you. Some of the underwater fights were just amazing. I know that not everybody likes underwater, but why to delete it, because it was always optional. Luckily Bay still has some water left and sometimes… like once per month, one can have there some underwater fights.

I used to be a BL map player. Usually on own BL and commanding PuGs there often as well. After 17th of September 2013 changed I haven’t been actively commanding in WvWvW anymore. Now I am forced to roam in EB as that is the only decently designed map left, but oh that dreadful lag in EB, where NONE of the skills work or there is 1-30 second delay in activating skills.

The new designs (ruins in BL and EotM) are too crammed. Too much of things clumped into a spot, too much chokepoints, stairs, bridges, verticality, feeling very unnatural.

The old WvWvW map designs might have a simple look, but they had and still have superior play value and feel more natural.

In fact if you look at the best and most popular multi-player maps for any game, most of them are rather dull looking and don’t have much any gimmicks in them e.g. look at the most popular maps for FPS games. Arenanet now seems to think the opposite is better: More gimmicks, more powerful NPCs, no small nooks and crooks, as if that would ever make a good multi-player map?

Amazing map design and incredible artwork, as always the game gets carried by the artwork.

The problem is that part of the map is usually empty because people are to scared to go there in small numbers and the zerg is more intrested in pvd.

This problem is not just confined to the ruins part of the map, most of the northern parts of the borderlands maps are usually empty, skrittcamp and centaur camp etc.

To fix that those parts of the map need to be changed to have a vital role.

I suggest:

Skritt and centaur patroles on the map 5-8 strong serving the team controlling the camp, the npcs need a power level comparable to the EoTM npcs, the patrols should be moving between camps and sentinels, every 15min the patrols mesmer npc portals the patrol to a random sentinel or camp to make the route less predictable.

Every ruin should get a supply generator like the EoTm ones (1 per ruin so a 3rd of a EoTM camp per ruin in supplies generated) those should generate supplies in the “spawn area”of the team controlling it. Every suppliy generator should get a guardian like the EoTM npcs.
The generator and the npc should give evnet credits and rewards like 1/2 of a regular supply camp when you successfully build your generator not when you defeat the npc and destroy the enemy generator.

I honestly really like the whole area and idea.
I like to mix up zerging and solo roaming, all the while doing what I can for my team.

Coordinating with one or two other roamers in map or party chat for trolling bl so no one else gets it or holding it for you team entertains me alot.
If a whole zerg wants to hit up bl, that’s their wasted time, if my 3 guys wasted 20 peoples 3 minutes, I feel it’s a win. Killing a couple of zergling in the process, there’s a couple points.

I don’t know about lower tiers, but if we don’t have bloodlust, it’s not a big deal, but it’s not ignored. Someone mentions it right away and within 5 or so minutes someone will be working on it.

Imo, bl shouldn’t some kind of imbalance, if all 3 teeams have it, the more dedicated team to stomping gets more points, the roamers killing more people get their team more points, whether or not they care, they still add points to that score, if those players stopped, the math says it would make a bit of a difference.

BUT…………………………………… they should have just worked on fixing all the bugs (most of which we’ve complained about for the year and a half, or the new ones which keep just randomly popping up[unable to move after building seige ect ect ect ect ect] which now have their own thread btw) over the last year and a half instead of making this area and the EOTM and then tell us WE DON’T HAVE THE RESOURCES.

Bazzoong.7145:

I suggest:

Skritt and centaur patroles on the map 5-8 strong serving the team controlling the camp, the npcs need a power level comparable to the EoTM npcs, the patrols should be moving between camps and sentinels, every 15min the patrols mesmer npc portals the patrol to a random sentinel or camp to make the route less predictable.

No, STOP IT with the PVE mobs, just stop it. Every single one of them should be removed except guards/lords.
If ppl want stacks, those stacks should have to be obtained by killing enemies.

I do agree that the ruins and eotm are aesthetically beautiful. There’s never any lacking in this game aesthetically… ever

But, the ruins & their effects were never, even remotely, asked for by players.
I agree that some kind of structure would be a much better replacement for the area.

waste of space. It’s not used by roamers because there are no one there to kill. Zergs don’t care because they have almost no effect on ppt game.

Mogar.9216:

waste of space. It’s not used by roamers because there are no one there to kill. Zergs don’t care because they have almost no effect on ppt game.

They do at the sentries. Sentries provide natural pathing for roamers because it offers small objectives to keep you busy while you look for people.

style.6173:

I would like to see them clear the middle and add a large structure instead. Think SM for the borderlands.

I reckon move the garri down into the centre of ruins

Maybe even take some of the NPC services from the citadel like the crafting stations, and put them around it (outside).

Sube Dai.8496:

style.6173:

I would like to see them clear the middle and add a large structure instead. Think SM for the borderlands.

I reckon move the garri down into the centre of ruins

Maybe even take some of the NPC services from the citadel like the crafting stations, and put them around it (outside).

Also add in a drive in movie screen, and a car wash?

Failing to see the purpose of the NPC’s moving.

Well it would just be more realistic.

The point of a real garrison is to house a military force that protects a town. The town itself would exposed however, as would be the citizens within. If attacked the townspeople would retreat to the garrison, and the soldiers would either fight from the garrison or march out.

In the BLs however, all of the townspeople (ie armorsmith) are within the ‘citadel’, which is itself an impregnable fortress. Why would you even need a garrison to defend that?